[dkstories] Let's Do It Chapter 26

[Altimexis]

Wow, Dan, what another great chapter!

 

I really, really like the direction the story has taken, and thanks for including a mention of the fate of Shevardnadze. I happen to agree with you as to the reason for the messed-up direction the US has taken. The collapse of the Russian economy not only fed the corruption of of what replaced Soviet power, but it left a demoralized Russian citizenry that was barely better off than many third world countries. I the meantime, the lack of substantial opposition led the US to abuse its power, to make numerous mistakes and to literally play into the hands of those who seek its destruction. A strong but peaceful Russia could have prevented all that.

 

I'm not going to say anything more yet, as I want to give everyone a chance to read LDI 26, but I think Brian's on the right track.

[old bob]

Wow, Dan, what another great chapter!

I am once again astonished how deep Dan goes in his appreciation of the political situation then ...and now ( I know, politics have nothing to do in GA, but I appreciate very much the fact that at least one citizen of the States is able to see the forest and not only the trees )

two examples from this story :

I looked at things too much from a solely American perspective, always at changing things from the outside, not the inside of other nations.

Its exactly what the Bush administration does.

 

Moscow was flooded with more foreigners than ever before, many of them

[BeaStKid]

Nice chapter and once again Dan has proved how insightful he is with politics.

 

Somehow I agree with the idea that lack of competition has led U.S to think that she can do whatever she feels like I may be wrong, but I feel that a strong (yet peaceful) opposition would have done U.S some good.

 

I liked the pace, the developments and almost everything. Brian's decision was intelligent and I feel the group would do a lot of good there.

 

Thanks again.

 

The BeaStKid

[pitchan]

It might be me but I get the feeling that this might be the calm before the storm. Everything is going a bit to well and according to Brian's plan, and that makes me think something must go wrong somewhere. Might not happen but...well call me a pessimist xD

Ive always thought Dan's addition of politics in his Do Over story interesting as well. I'm not into politics and usually I find it boring, but I find all the political intrigue very interesting in the Do Over stories.

Edited September 9, 2007 by pitchan

[Rad]

Dan, what can I say? Another great chpater of this favourite of mine. The events and all that unfolds during the last day of the empire......lol!

It was bad though, to see the Soviet goes down. All that when they tried to do the right thing.

I mean, Gorbachev was a good man, no? He tried to reform the union & preserve it. The brutality is dissappearing, but then again.....

 

I agree that the bitterness generated by the sudden collapse of the union & how Russia was treated by the west contributed A LOT to the current development.

One wonders, when the p.o.v was reached. I like it that Davey & Brian tried to dabble in the economics & to the armed forces, by extension.

To preserve the union? I hope so, but I think you have more like to cushioned the fall of the union.

 

Then again, even though the union should lose all the empire in eastern europe, I hope you will preserve Russia in the borders of the union.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Rad

[C James]

Then again, even though the union should lose all the empire in eastern europe, I hope you will preserve Russia in the borders of the union.

 

I know of a good many people in the countries of Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Moldavia, Georgia, Armenia, etc, etc, etc, who would certainly disagree with that statement.

 

Reagan said it best; the Soviet Union was the Evil Empire, and destined for the ash heap of history. Gorbachev may have been somewhat well-intentioned in some regards (though make no mistake, he was a dedicated communist with all that entials, and he reforms were pragmatic in intent, rather than altruistic), but one man does not a union make.

 

To be quite honest, I've been keeping my mouth shut on this latest plot. First, I'll address the realism; very well done, right down to levies being likely to be stolen. Dan seems to have a good feel for Moscow of that era. Well done.

 

What's bothering me is the course Brian and Davy seem to be embarked upon. If indeed (and I have hope that this is misdirection)

they intend to preserve a strong Russia as a counter to the US, they have embarked on folly at least, and likely high treason.

 

The problem is simple; whenever you have to competitors of lost strength, they become rivals, and then enemies. Can anyone point to one single example in all of human history where this is not the case? I suspect not. I certainly can't think of any. Always, the two or more "top nations" of a given region (and later, the globe) develop an adversarial relationship. This is a natural dynamic, seen very often in everything from interpersonal relationships to regional disputes. And as a natural dynamic, trying to fight it is most difficult.

 

In the case of the fall of the Soviet Union, the US did essentially nothing wrong. I challenge anyone to cite a single example in all of history of one adversary treating a fallen one more graciously. We even aided them covertly when needed, such as providing us inteligence electronic intercepts and satalite data to aid in their fight against the Chechens. Granted, the US made some mistakes, not the least of which is publicly criticizing the Russians for their operations in Chechnia. However, where is the mortal offence that some seem to perceive?

 

Regardless, the issue of a superpower Russia in today's world would be frought with danger. More than once, the superpowers came to the brink of nuclear war, and more than once it nearly happened accidentally. Having a second nuclear superpower around in today's

volatile times would be the height of folly. It would also do nothing to dampen the fires of extreemisim (which is what Brian and Davey are supposedly concerned with), rather, it would exacerbate it by limiting the ability of either Russia or the US to act.

 

Let it not be forgotten that Islamic extreemisim did not spring forth from nothing after the fall of the Soviets. Rather, it had been around for decades. Having two superpowers to play off against one another fostered the growth of extreemisim, and were there two today, it would be even worse.

 

The main concern today is Russia's resurgence under Putin. The emergence of a dictator (which is what Putin has become) would be far worse if Russia was stronger. What we really need to ask is this; would Russian democracy have had a better chance had the Soviet Union not fallen so hard? That could be argued either way, but I'll pin my argument on the internal dynamics that led to the rise of Putin; the preservation, via a political deal brokered by Putin himself while an aide to Anatoli Sobchak in 1991, to preserve the power of the KGB while the rest of the Soviet institutions fell apart. The KGB maintained its power, a power used by Putin to gain control of the country. With the KGB relatively intact, Russia had a poison at its core, a knife of corruption and greed at the heart of it's new democracy. Given that, cushioning the fall would have merely left more pieces for the KGB to pick up. To take Russia from that course, you need to stop the dynamic that caused it.

 

In essence, stop that deal. It was done to prevent bloodshed in the streets of Lenningrad, but like so may such deals, the eventual price was far higher than what they wished to avoid.

 

Putin isn't Stalin; a more apt comparison is Mussolini. Without his machinations, it is possible (though far from certain) that the present dictatorship could be avoided. If Davey and Brian want to truly give Russia a chance, bumping off Putin wo9uld be their best shot.

 

Anyway, that's my long-winded bloviation on the subject. And that said, I should also mention that DK is writing fiction, so his universe may very well behave in different ways from the real world. However, DK is good enough that many of us, myself included, forget that little detail.

 

CJ

[Altimexis]

In the case of the fall of the Soviet Union, the US did essentially nothing wrong. I challenge anyone to cite a single example in all of history of one adversary treating a fallen one more graciously.

 

Oooh . . . You left yourself wide open on that one, CJ. Such short memories we have.

 

The best example of all is the Marshall plan in Europe and Japan. The US basically rebuilt all of Europe, including West Germany, as well as Japan. Granted, this was largely to counter the growing Soviet threat, but the fact remains that we treated our former enemies of WWII much more graciously than we did Russia after the fall of the USSR. If you want an example that does not involve the US, try France vs. Germany. And if we did nothing wrong, why did Richard Nixon of all people warn us we were snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?

 

Although Islamic extremism would have still been a threat, at least it might not have been a nuclear threat, were it not for the availability of Russian nuclear materials and knowhow on the black market. I'm not so sure the world is that much better off than if the USSR had never fallen. I'm probably in a minority on that one, but one thing I do know is that Russia's economic situation would have been much better today had they pursued economic reform (ala China) first, rather than social reform. The majority of Russians would have probably been better off, too. The life expectancy for Russian men is less than 60 - the standard of living has truly sunk to 3rd world levels. When Russia does get back on its feet, and it will, all those years of economic hardship will lead to resentment of the west, and a potentially even more dangerous foe. By that time, however, China will be a much greater concern, and with soaring energy costs, the US may be barely able to feed itself, let alone maintain its military might.

 

I think Dan's dead-on on this one. What I think he's trying to do is weed-out Russian corruption and organized crime before they strangle the Russian economy, as they have.

 

Would a stronger Russia have been a military threat to the US and the West? That would have depended on how we handled it.

[C James]

Oooh . . . You left yourself wide open on that one, CJ. Such short memories we have.

 

The best example of all is the Marshall plan in Europe and Japan. The US basically rebuilt all of Europe, including West Germany, as well as Japan. Granted, this was largely to counter the growing Soviet threat, but the fact remains that we treated our former enemies of WWII much more graciously than we did Russia after the fall of the USSR. If you want an example that does not involve the US, try France vs. Germany. And if we did nothing wrong, why did Richard Nixon of all people warn us we were snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?

 

Mea culpa on that one; I should have been more specific; by "foe" I meant the political entity of the nation itself. In the case of both Germany and Japan, they had surrendered unconditionally, and were under allied administration. There was no continuity of government. In the case of Russia, they had suffered a defeat, and a fall, they had certainly not surrendered, nor had they, as a political entity, ceased to exist at any time. The marshal plan, by contrast, was (in regards to Germany) to a country entirely under allied rule. The marshal plan ended in 51 or 52, and W. Germany did not have it's sovereignty restored until the mid-50's. However, you might have a case regarding Italy.

 

Although Islamic extremism would have still been a threat, at least it might not have been a nuclear threat, were it not for the availability of Russian nuclear materials and knowhow on the black market. I'm not so sure the world is that much better off than if the USSR had never fallen. I'm probably in a minority on that one, but one thing I do know is that Russia's economic situation would have been much better today had they pursued economic reform (ala China) first, rather than social reform. The majority of Russians would have probably been better off, too. The life expectancy for Russian men is less than 60 - the standard of living has truly sunk to 3rd world levels. When Russia does get back on its feet, and it will, all those years of economic hardship will lead to resentment of the west, and a potentially even more dangerous foe. By that time, however, China will be a much greater concern, and with soaring energy costs, the US may be barely able to feed itself, let alone maintain its military might.

 

Russian standards of living have actually increased, not decreased, since the Soviet years, so how on earth can they blame the west? Their largest economic problems today stem from Putin's feuds with the Russian industrialists. Look what happened to their largest oil company as a case in point.

 

I'd also question why an econimically stronger Russia would be a good thing? An economically stronger China most certainly is not. (a folly the US and the West have been ignoring for decades, letting greed overwhelm common sense). The salient fact is that a modern economy is the needed precursor to a modern military.

 

I think Dan's dead-on on this one. What I think he's trying to do is weed-out Russian corruption and organized crime before they strangle the Russian economy, as they have.

 

Would a stronger Russia have been a military threat to the US and the West? That would have depended on how we handled it.

 

Given the fact that Russia's loss of democracy is directly due to the KGB power eleite remaining control, how would making them stronger economically hinder the corruption? It might be helpful here to take a look at HOW and by WHAT MEANS the KGB hierarchy insinuated itself into the "new Russia". It wasn't for nothing that the locus of much of the rot was the new private enterprise sectors themselves; that was an opportunity the KGB, acting much like the Mafia, could not resit. It certainly paid off for them as one of their means of resuming control.

 

A stronger Russia would, under its current leadership, be an even worse problem than the current one. Unless you change the internal dynamic that led to the current situation, all you achieve is a stronger adversary, along with a new nuclear threat.

[bcdude1245]

The chapter was a nice read as have all the previous chapters; I am rather surpised the story has continued for so long. The ending was equally well done since it was worded in a way that allows continuity but also a open end to the story.

 

I think that the world events and individual scenarios proposed by dk are well thought out and interesting to consider, but for us to give credence to the proposed timelime as being factual appears to be misguided.

[theschnauzers]

I don't think Dan has finished with Let's Do It just yet. I have faith that when Dan is ready to post the next chapter, he will.

[old bob]

I don't think Dan has finished with Let's Do It just yet. I have faith that when Dan is ready to post the next chapter, he will.

I agree, but let him go on with "rich boy" first

Meantime you can, as I do, reread the DO stories

[theschnauzers]

As Dan given any indication as to where things stand with Let's Do It? While he's mention that Book II of Rich Boy would be ready to begin posting by the end of December, we've not had any indication about Let's Do It, and I thought it would be fair to ask (after nearly four months of silence on the subect).

[dkstories]

Yup, Yup, fair to ask.

 

Conclusion of Let's Do It should be up in a couple of weeks. With me starting a new business everything is getting pushed back while I focus on that though...so no promises.

[Demetz]

Conclusion!!?!

[old bob]

Conclusion!!?!

Hi DK, good luck in your new business

For the stories, we can wait

[yourfrienddarryl]

Thank you Dan for all the wonderful stories you have brought us. Good luck on your new business. and as has been said, We can wait. I must also point out that I love the Rich Boy story too and will be ready and eager to see the new one as well. You have indeed given us hours and hours of pleasure.

Thank you again.

your Friend,

Darryl