Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[Jack Scribe]

This Sunday's 60 Minutes tells the story of an openly gay U.S. Army Medic currently serving. From the synop of the interview, the man came out because of rumors and reported himself. Showed his superior pictures of himself and a boyfriend in a hot kiss. The superior said that didn't indicate the medic was gay but passed on the info to his boss - as SOP. The commanding officer basically he could care less whether the man was gay or not and dismissed the report.

 

http://www.towleroad.com/2007/12/60-minutes-to-c.html

 

It appears to be a balance of a C.O.'s enlightened tolerance and the urgent need to keep military men/women who perform specialize jobs on active duty. I suspect, however, with this story on national TV tomorrow night, the medic will be discharged.

 

Jack

[lonelygay51]

Oh, I can't wait to watch it! I hope he is not discharge but this going to reach powerful people in Washington.

[Rabble_Rouser]

It could be very interesting to watch. I wonder if 60 Minutes will mention that most other G8 countries have allowed Gays and Lesbian's to openly serve for years with no problems experienced.

 

Steve

[Drewbie]

There is another one, it's not that simlar but he did out himself to a few fellow marines.

 

http://www.metroweekly.com/feature/?ak=2112

[glomph]

I gather that they are more likely to kick you out if you know Arabic. That sounds incredibly stupid under the circumstances, but that seems to be the pattern.

[Hylas]

I don't know... Manzella looks like a troublemaker to me. I think he's doing it just for the limelight.

 

I wished things were better in the service, but hey, it's mostly the world of men, and accepting homosexuals is not really that easy especially in the ubermacho environment. Manzella is not helping. I just hope this will not cause another spate of homophobic violence in the military again.

 

It's funny to note that some of the ancient world's elite armies openly encouraged homosexuality. Notably the Sacred Band Of Thebes.

 

Interestingly, The men of the Sacred Band Of Thebes died almost exactly the same way as Leonidas' men in the movie 300. LOL. 300 men died rather than retreat in Thebes' war against Macedonia (against Phillip II and Alexander). Tell that to homophobic soldiers. Heh

[Tiger]

I don't know... Manzella looks like a troublemaker to me. I think he's doing it just for the limelight.

 

I wished things were better in the service, but hey, it's mostly the world of men, and accepting homosexuals is not really that easy especially in the ubermacho environment. Manzella is not helping. I just hope this will not cause another spate of homophobic violence in the military again.

 

It's funny to note that some of the ancient world's elite armies openly encouraged homosexuality. Notably the Sacred Band Of Thebes.

 

Interestingly, The men of the Sacred Band Of Thebes died almost exactly the same way as Leonidas' men in the movie 300. LOL. 300 men died rather than retreat in Thebes' war against Macedonia (against Phillip II and Alexander). Tell that to homophobic soldiers. Heh

It wasn't until Judeo-Christian principles became prominent that societies frowned upon homosexuality among soldiers. The Greeks were famous for it, especially the Spartans. Actually, what the practiced in Greece was called pedestry (young adults having sexual relationships with teenagers). I don't like don't ask, don't tell. People shouldn't have to hide who they are just to be in the military. The military should train soldiers to be accepting. That's the bottom line.

[ashessnow]

Ehh. I kinda understand the reasoning behind the "Dont Ask, Dont Tell" policy, and I dont really think the military should be used as an instrument for social change. But I think people should be able to serve how they want, and most Americans think so too.

[FrenchCanadian]

Ehh. I kinda understand the reasoning behind the "Dont Ask, Dont Tell" policy, and I dont really think the military should be used as an instrument for social change. But I think people should be able to serve how they want, and most Americans think so too.

 

I think that in this case the "Don't ask, Don't tell" should apply. What you do in bed and who you love shouldn't be a reason of not being able to be in the military. But I also think that it's not the place to discuss you're sexuality has nothing to do with it. Tho I can understand that being in the army and not being able to tell who you're dating or who's your lover is might be real hard.

[Demetz]

Though I can understand that being in the army and not being able to tell who you're dating or who's your lover is might be real hard.

 

Exactly. You're coming off duty and your buddy asks you to go to a strip joint for a good time... do you fake interest or risk being outed? Your comrade in arms innocently asks what you did on leave... do you tell him you spent it with your boyfriend or do you lie... or give a non-response that increases suspicion? "Its not relevant to the job so don't ask and don't tell" is one thing for a workplace policy, but there is a social element to the military where your personal life is relevant to your friends and comrades. You shouldn't be thrown out just because you're honest with them.

[Tiger]

Exactly. You're coming off duty and your buddy asks you to go to a strip joint for a good time... do you fake interest or risk being outed? Your comrade in arms innocently asks what you did on leave... do you tell him you spent it with your boyfriend or do you lie... or give a non-response that increases suspicion? "Its not relevant to the job so don't ask and don't tell" is one thing for a workplace policy, but there is a social element to the military where your personal life is relevant to your friends and comrades. You shouldn't be thrown out just because you're honest with them.

Gays in the military are forced to lie in those situations. People should not have to be shoved back into the closet just because some wimp is afraid it will rub off or something. It's ridiculous. And then, I heard about this guy who was actually murdered, because someone found out he was dating a transvestite. I have nothing but respect for all members of the armed services, but they need to realize that it is not the 1950's anymore. They have a responsibility to make everyone feel welcome in the military.

[ashessnow]

Gays in the military are forced to lie in those situations. People should not have to be shoved back into the closet just because some wimp is afraid it will rub off or something. It's ridiculous. And then, I heard about this guy who was actually murdered, because someone found out he was dating a transvestite. I have nothing but respect for all members of the armed services, but they need to realize that it is not the 1950's anymore. They have a responsibility to make everyone feel welcome in the military.

 

Ehh, I disagree. I dont really think its the militarys job to make everyone feel welcome. Its their job to train soldiers to fight for their country. As I said earlier, the military shouldnt be used as an intrument for social change. And having someone around that is "different" disrupts the unit. Course, thats what was said about blacks 30 years ago. I dont know. I guess a person should be able to serve how they want. They want to defend their country, and they should be able to. I guess Im a bit conflicted on the subject.

[Benji]

Ehh, I disagree. I dont really think its the militarys job to make everyone feel welcome. Its their job to train soldiers to fight for their country. As I said earlier, the military shouldnt be used as an intrument for social change. And having someone around that is "different" disrupts the unit. Course, thats what was said about blacks 30 years ago. I dont know. I guess a person should be able to serve how they want. They want to defend their country, and they should be able to. I guess Im a bit conflicted on the subject.

 

 

..............Believe me, there are many types of "differents' that can cause disruption within a unit, being a bi/gay person should not be pointed out as the only ones. Things have changed since I was in, I know of more gays serving now, than those who admitted serving back in the 60's 70's & 80's. You don't have to be straight to be a patriot. 'nam vet

[Tiger]

Ehh, I disagree. I dont really think its the militarys job to make everyone feel welcome. Its their job to train soldiers to fight for their country. As I said earlier, the military shouldnt be used as an intrument for social change. And having someone around that is "different" disrupts the unit. Course, thats what was said about blacks 30 years ago. I dont know. I guess a person should be able to serve how they want. They want to defend their country, and they should be able to. I guess Im a bit conflicted on the subject.

You fail to understand the need for comradory among soldiers. They have to protect each other on the battlefield. You should read about the Spartans. I'm not saying that it should taken to that level, but they do need to take care of one another, regardless of sexual orientation.

[ashessnow]

You fail to understand the need for comradory among soldiers. They have to protect each other on the battlefield. You should read about the Spartans. I'm not saying that it should taken to that level, but they do need to take care of one another, regardless of sexual orientation.

 

Hmm, actually I do understand the need for comradery, thats why I said that having someone perceived as "different" could disrupt the unit. And of course I think that soldiers need to take care of each other. But when you have an outsider, thats a bit difficult right? Maybe I just think it shouldnt be a big deal. No, you shouldnt be forced to hide who you are, but you shouldnt force others to deal with it too.

[Graeme]

Ehh, I disagree. I dont really think its the militarys job to make everyone feel welcome. Its their job to train soldiers to fight for their country. As I said earlier, the military shouldnt be used as an intrument for social change. And having someone around that is "different" disrupts the unit. Course, thats what was said about blacks 30 years ago. I dont know. I guess a person should be able to serve how they want. They want to defend their country, and they should be able to. I guess Im a bit conflicted on the subject.

Who wants to use the military for as an instrument for social change? A person's bedroom activities should not be a matter for the military, as long as it does not violate military secrets (ie. no sleeping with enemy spies) and does not undermine military discipline (hence relationships between different ranks can be problematic). I fail to see how homosexuality, per se, disrupts the unit.

 

Now, if the majority of a unit are homophobic (to one degree or another), having a gay member of that unit could be disruptive. Equally, if the majority of a unit are racist (to one degree or another), having a member from another race in that unit could be disruptive. I haven't heard that tolerating racism (in the later case) is considered to be a good idea, though. The response in the later case is to educate the soldiers concerned to eliminate, or mitigate, their racism. Why should the response in the former case be any different?

 

Hmm, actually I do understand the need for comradery, thats why I said that having someone perceived as "different" could disrupt the unit. And of course I think that soldiers need to take care of each other. But when you have an outsider, thats a bit difficult right? Maybe I just think it shouldnt be a big deal. No, you shouldnt be forced to hide who you are, but you shouldnt force others to deal with it too.

Anyone can be an outsider -- perceived as different. It could be because your shorter, taller, fatter, thinner, richer, poorer, speak with a different accent -- anything (check out any school yard bullying for many examples). The solution is NOT to remove the person who is "different" but to show that their difference makes no difference to them doing the job involved -- in this case, defending their nation.

 

Many other countries (including Australia) have openly gay members serving in their military -- what is so different about the USA that means that their soldiers can't handle the situation at least as well as the soldiers of other nations? Especially since they are currently serving along side openly gay soldiers from other nations.

[scoopny]

The funny thing is that the United States served with several armies in Afghanistan with openly gay armies.... England, Canada, Israel. Is there something about our soliders that they're too fragile to handle openly gay men? LOL.

 

The real problem with don't ask/don't tell is that it's arbitrary. If your officer doesn't care, then nothing will happen to you. But if your officer doesn't like you, for whatever reason, they can use your sexuality as a weapon to throw you out of the service. It's not really Don't Ask/Don't Tell, basically if anyone mentions that you are gay, you can be targeted. Further, say you're the target of anti-gay harassment in the military service, even if you don't happen to be gay. Are you going to report the abuse to superiors and thus give them a reason to eject you from the army? No way. In fact, gay soldiers are less safe in a don't ask/don't tell environment. Either the military should just ban all gays or let them serve without fear they could lose everything with one wrong move.

 

Basically we have an army where you can enlist if you're a high school drop-out, have been treated for mental illness, committed minor crimes but not if you're gay. Does that really make any sense?