[dkstories] Do Over Redux

[Masked Monkey]

As to the sexuality talk that Snow Dog brought up - it has to be just Davey, Brandon and Trevor I think.  And circumstances haven't let that happen yet.  And unless Sean gets to the point of being released and joining the others, I can see the conversation being deferred a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you were referring to the post by Bocian, not me. My meager forrays in to literary criticism have always been referred to as "linear", "intricate, but linear", and my cannon only extends from "A Night in the Life of Jimmy Reardon" to "Zardoz" (ignores pained groan of anyone who has seen either movie)

[dkstories]

Hey Dan

 

Putting aside what was said above, I have a question. Now maybe I'm wrong, god knows I've been wrong before and reserve the right to do it again.    I thought that Ridgeway is a Navy Seal, but in this chapter you used this statement to describe him. 

 

"Ridgeway was standing there with his golden surfer-boy hair perfectly in place and smiling at me. "

 

Now being a Navy vet. and having met and worked with a few Seals, I don't recall any that would really fit that description i.e. "surfer-boy" Would you care to comment on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The character is based on someone I knew in the service who broke his leg during Hell Week and never got his chance try again thanks to a few assignment problems on the ship.

 

Also, there was one extremely glaring error in this chapter that I can't believe we didn't catch before posting....the use of the word loose instead of lose.

[Masked Monkey]

All I have to say is Thank You Dan . Thank You for making Brian who he always has been. Nothing in this chapter alters my prognostication of the direction Dan is taking, in fact, there are obvious reinforcements.

 

I guess that isn't all I have to say

 

As I am not Dan (and you are all thankful for that), cannot think for Dan, and have no inside information, nothing I say can be taken as fact or as a spoiler.

 

Brian has a PROBLEM.

It was Brian who originally hit on Davey (ahhh wrestling) in TL2, it was Brian who couldn't control his hormones. Davey was clearly interested in Brandon, but Brian was always there. Notice it was Brian who followd Davey into the elevator, when it was a totally inappropriate thing to do. Yea, Brian fell for Davey real bad in the hospital with Uncle Rich. But in Brian's world of the TL3 early 80s, you can't be gay, you can't have an uncle that you adore to the point of worship die of AIDS, you can't visit quarantine, and you can't have the hots for the cute guy who seems really important no matter how nice, cute, built, and wonderful smelling he may be -- anything but that. So you repress, you pound on "queers" and those weaker than you. Hell, Brian was doing this in every timeline as far as I can tell, but in TL3 the social pressure to repress is stronger than in any other timeline. So how does a guy ultimately "prove" he isn't gay ... GIRLFRIEND. I haven't researched to find out if Marcie is the name of his wife in the original time line (and if it was, was Davey lying, even though Brian only specifically asked about "that last life"), I suppose it doesn't matter. IF we assume Brian is gay and using a girlfriend as cover, why did he marry her in the original timeline. I'm sure she didn't win his heart, so why the loyalty to a marriage and a life that makes him miserable. The same reason Davey does most things .. DUTY. Brian's loyalty to his wife in the first timeline was actually loyalty to his FAMILY (also something clearly important to Davey, Brian, and our esteemed author). In the original timeline, Brian had the DUTY to raise his kid (or was it kids) and provide a "normal" life. In TL2, Davey was the family that Brian felt that duty toward, and his loyalty to Davey was absolutely unquestioned. Brian doesn't want to move from Modesto even to assure his safety and the safety of his family because not all of his family would be moving to Eureka. Brian's unborn kid and its mother would stay behind, and thus we have Brian's problem. In TL1 he had a girlfriend/wife and family because he never found the man who would steal his heart by the time he was father and locked into duty. In TL2 he never went for the girlfriend because of Davey stealing (and steeling) his heart before his sexualty could become an issue (probably around the time of Uncle Rich's death). In TL3 he has both the girlfriend/family and a heart stolen by Davey.

 

Brian wasn't mad at Davey or really disbelieving.about the ability to save his uncle, he was looking for a reason to hate Davey so his heart could release him and he wouldn't have to make a choice. Davey doesn't have to win Brian's heart, I think he already has it, but what does Brian follow? Does he follow his heart and stay with Davey only to emotionally abandon his kid (as the risk would be too great to associate the kid with Davey's lover, unless the kid were on base), or does he give up his love for his duty to his kid? Davey broke his responsibilty to Marcie by saying they weren't married (of course, will he believe Davey after he tells Brian that they were married), all that is left is the kid.

 

What will Brian/Dan choose?

[SamadIdris]

Just my thoughts about Brian and Davey

 

 

Chapter 21

 

The reason why Brian asked Davey whether he was married was because he is still trying his best not to be gay.

 

"Was... in that last life you talked about... was I married?" Brian asked with a hint of concern in his voice.

 

That's why he was concerned about whether he was married or not- it would show whether he was successful in repressing himself.

 

In the last do-over, he had davey with him to support him and be with him as he accepted being gay.

 

But for this timeline, davey wasn't there earlier (modesto).

And with the quarantine (and resulting negative stigma against homos) he became even more closeted (even to the extend of treating Sean badly- not his nature at all).

To make things worse, his Uncle Rich died, so he's really alone, with no one at all to support him.

He was so lonely.

 

He dated Marcie- to try to be hetero. To try not to be gay.

 

And that's why he was initially relieved when Davey told him he was married (cause at that time, Brian thought that only heteros can marry each other). He thought that he successfully became straight.

 

 

However...

 

"Was... is it Marcie?" He asked, naming the girl he was dating right now.

 

"No, it wasn

[lurker]

The part I was uneasy about?

[lurker]

Stupid double post...

Edited May 22, 2005 by lurker

[Novelty]

To be honest, perhaps the reason I'm so willing to accept that Davey/Brian is not necessarily going to happen in this story is that I find the inequality in that relationship jarring and disturbing.

I have to agree there. Davey is chasing a ghost that may not exist. And hormones be damned, bringing Brian to the shooting range wasn't just a case of "teenage hormones" - it was a premeditated rational action and not a "heat of the moment" type of thing.

[Rad]

DOR 21

 

Hmmmmm, no wonder thay change and react hostily to supposed gay. Their reactions at th emention that Uncle Rich was gay was enough. Soo, they fear? Hmmmm, is that why Brian was hostile? Hehehehehe, secrets to be revealed huh? Trevor and Brandon would die if their parents knew they'd been having sex between them. Wahahahahaha, that alien secret was funny! Hmmmm, one family was defector, a boy was a time traveller, why not an alien to complete the weirdness?

 

Wow. The time-travel theory also gives me a headache. Paradox and all that. Hehehehehe, you know, I keep reading such comments as how hot Ridgeway looked like or how handsome Trevor was. You'd wonder if Davey wasn't planning some conquest Still doesn't see why Brian should be that angry with Davey. Besides, if everybody could -at least- listen to Davey, why not Brian? BTW it's like readign a prospectus from a housing developer about a "Eureka Hills" housing project I mean, Davey was trying to sell to them and they're looking to make a buy. Davey listed all the benefits and some of the bonuses before they took a look at the property.

 

I see Davey has a case of double standard when it comes into Brian. What I don't understand is why Brian acted so belligerently in front of others and acted so nicely behind others. If I were Brian and I've just finished with my tirade of doubting someone and even to the point of exchanging bad words [accusing him of lying and all] I'd take my time before trying to be cozy with him. Why after all he said he suddenly had a change of heart and being kind to Davey? "...This was Brian after all..." Davey would give anything to be with Brian again. Impressing Brian with the base, his position and the gadgets might be one way to win Brian back.

 

Glider attack....I seem to recall an attack like that. In WWII during the invasion of the low countries, the germans did that on the Belgian fortress guarding the Albert Canal if I remember correctly. Mr. Mulkey is getting more and more unbearable. At first I thought he was nice, turned out he was a control freak. Hmmmm, with Brian asking about his marriage I can undestand Davey's need to avoid himself named as the one Brian maried. I'd do the same if I were Davey and hope that all will be happening the normal way.

 

Why the worry? I have been waiting this chapter for long [one week! ] I wanna see how things are between D&B. Well, I guess it's shapening up. Though Davey will have lots of works ahead of him to win back Brian. To think of that, also to stop Brian from having crush with either boys or girls It would be wicked if Brian went out with David! Davey woould be dying of jealousy and worry hahahahaha.

 

Oh well, that's for now Dan. I can't wait until I read more about D&B. I always love thier relationship, set against the backdrop of high politics and intrigues. Sighhh...

 

With kindest and warmest regards from

 

Rad

[Rad]

This may just be me, but I derived an irrational amount of joy from the use of actual Russian words [rather than just brackets. I can understand why Dan does this though, even my Russian is grammatically correct this way and you all understand it]. One question flitted through my mind:  is Tyatya's maiden name meant to be derived from the same Slavic root as здоровье, meaning healthy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey bocian,

 

Perhaps you can be Dan's russian-language advisor. BTW where are you from?

 

Cheers!

 

Rad

[Masked Monkey]

Wow. The time-travel theory also gives me a headache. Paradox and all that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The conceited part of me thinks that was a recent edit that Dan put in specifically to get me to shut-up about the whole time travel paradox thing because I was giving everyone (except myself) a headache. So Dan tells me (and Dr. Rush, best name in the world) "enough already." Since I'm not conceited, I just played into Dan's hands.

 

Still doesn't see why Brian should be that angry with Davey. Besides, if everybody could -at least- listen to Davey, why not Brian?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My belief as explained above is that Brian has such strong emotion toward Davey and is looking for a reason to hate every (gorgeous) part of him. He is looking for any reason he can find to prove to himself that he isn't attacted to Davey, rational or irrational.

 

I see Davey has a case of double standard when it comes into Brian. What I don't understand is why Brian acted so belligerently in front of others and acted so nicely behind others. If I were Brian and I've just finished with my tirade of doubting someone and even to the point of exchanging bad words [accusing him of lying and all] I'd take my time before trying to be cozy with him. Why after all he said he suddenly had a change of heart and being kind to Davey?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In public Brian is the str8, queer-hating( duck Mrs. Rush's hand) jock, all the while he is sitting/standing there and staring out the window, he's battling two conflictig things: Why do his pants keep tenting every the he looks at Davey (hope no one notices)? and How many ways can I try to make it go away/stop it from happening. So he yells, is silent, looks out the window, avoids sympathetic (emotional) touches by he firends.

 

But, just like Dan at a movie theatre ( ), he can't avoid the chance to get to know this mysterious hunk a bit better, and maybe figure out stuff going on in his life at the moment with someone who knows his future.

 

"...This was Brian after all..." Davey would give anything to be with Brian again. Impressing Brian with the base, his position and the gadgets might be one way to win Brian back.

 

[...]

 

Hmmmm, with Brian asking about his marriage I can undestand Davey's need to avoid himself named as the one Brian maried. I'd do the same if I were Davey and hope that all will be happening the normal way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some people saw Davey's behavior as manipulation in almost a pedaphilic sense. Granted, Davey's behavior is a bit manipulative, but what teenager boy wouldn't like to have Davey help him fire his gun. It's logical, I'm sure all his Eureka friends are shooting their's off as well. Not to mention Trever & Brandon getting a turn at the line.

 

Looking at Dan's other protagonists, I certainly see Davey near the bottom of the list of "manipulative hunks with "special" powers (do I sense a fantasy there Dan? , kinda ties into that stormtorrper thing eh? )". Let's list them:

 

Dylan in DOT - talk about manipulating/converting people, isn't that the whole basis for the story

 

J'Stan in MOF - Hmm, Godlike powers and able to manipulate reality through will (damn good thing he is in love)

 

Last, but not least: ANYBODY from VJ/Service - all they do is manipulate, manipulate then screw, manipulate the eat, manipulate then screw then eat, manipulate then eat while screwing, ...

 

All in all, I kinda place Davey near the bottom of the manipulative list, below Harry Potter and above all of the ironically normal people in Phone Call.

 

It would be wicked if Brian went out with David! Davey woould be dying of jealousy and worry hahahahaha.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I like the way you think :mace:

 

 

Snow Dog the Danderthal

 

Voting for more use of Trevor's Family's Americanized last name

Edited May 24, 2005 by Snow Dog

[Bocian]

Ever since the topic of Davey manipulating Brian was brought up, I've been wrestling with the idea. I'm conflicted. On one hand, it does seem a little slimey of Davey; on the other, I want them to be reunited.

 

Then last night I was watching two friends who started dating recently interact and I wondered, couldn't all dating to some extent be labeled manipulation? Angela I've known for eleven years, so I can tell pretty easily what she's doing and thinking. Steve has only been my acquiantance for three years and friend for one, but I still have known him as long or longer than Angela has and I can read him fairly well. I could tell when Angela was feigning interest in a book Steve was showing her. I could tell Steve didn't really want to do certain things Angela asked of him but did them anyway. The point is, we always try to represent ourselves in the best possible light to those we are interested in, which includes pandering to their specific interests. Is Davey's suggestion of an activity he knows Brian will like any different ethically from wearing cologne that he knows will be appreciated or talking about subjects he knows to be of interest to the other? These are things we all do regularly, regardless of what stage or type of a relationship is involved and without having experiences in other timelines.

 

You are probably already sceaming that what I just wrote is a fallacy . . . argumentum ad numerum or ad populum perhaps even ad antiquitatem. They are all very similar fallacies. Just because it is done and has been done by the masses does not make the ethical problem disappear. To which I reply, yes, but ethics are cultural creations and highly relative; therefore, the actions and norms of the masses do relate to an appeal to ethos. It is no accident that ethics and ethnic both come from the Indo-European root s(w)e. (The reply to that statement, of course, is that so does the word idiot and I would counter your argumentum ad hominem with a raspberry--by which I do not mean the fruit.)

 

I readily admit that there is a disparity in the power relationship between Davey and Brian, which is something the culture I live in (and I assume most of us share) frowns upon to the point of making laws regarding sexual harassment. Davey is rich, has powerful connections, greater knowledge and maturity, and, because of these things, a greater ability to manipulate than Brian has. However, he has not yet made any quid pro quo propositions nor has he created a hostile environment. Likewise, he is not in a position of authority over Brian; Brian and his family are civilian and can not be ordered by Davey unless the President were to establish martial law. Until Davey becomes Brian's superior officer or boss, proposes a tit-for-tat exchange of a sexual nature (not to be confused with tit-for-tit), or uses his power to create a hostile environment, I don't think he's doing anything truly slimey.

 

Davey may be manipulative, but not unethically so.

 

And that concludes my argument with myself. I now feel free to root for Brian and Davey once more.

 

P.S. Rad: I grew up in the American Midwest but my heart is currently in Ukraine despite my body having returned to Nebraska. For example, I still often answer the phone in Ukrainian by mistake and I'm making blinchiki for supper.

 

My Russian is an insult to all Russophones; I'm sure Dan can find a better Russian advisor than me. I've never taken Russian as a subject or even intentionally studied it on my own; however, I have studied Ukrainian and Polish which are in the same language family, share many roots, and have similar grammar (though Russian grammar I find easier than Polish). But they are still very different languages, just as Spanish is different but related to Romanian and French.

 

What Russian I know I picked up by shopping, attending church, eavesdropping on friends and students, and interacting in general with people in Kyiv, where Russian is spoken more than Ukrainian despite being Ukraine's capitol. I've been told I have a Muscovite's accent but a Ukrainian peasant's vocabulary. The man who said that may have been slightly inebriated. My approach to Russian so far has been to damn the grammar and spelling and only worry about getting my point across.

[lurker]

Ever since the topic of Davey manipulating Brian was brought up, I've been wrestling with the idea. I'm conflicted. On one hand, it does seem a little slimey of Davey; on the other, I want them to be reunited.

 

Then last night I was watching two friends who started dating recently interact and I wondered, couldn't all dating to some extent be labeled manipulation? Angela I've known for eleven years, so I can tell pretty easily what she's doing and thinking. Steve has only been my acquiantance for three years and friend for one, but I still have known him as long or longer than Angela has and I can read him fairly well. I could tell when Angela was feigning interest in a book Steve was showing her. I could tell Steve didn't really want to do certain things Angela asked of him but did them anyway. The point is, we always try to represent ourselves in the best possible light to those we are interested in, which includes pandering to their specific interests. Is Davey's suggestion of an activity he knows Brian will like any different ethically from wearing cologne that he knows will be appreciated or talking about subjects he knows to be of interest to the other? These are things we all do regularly, regardless of what stage or type of a relationship is involved and without having experiences in other timelines.

 

You are probably already sceaming that what I just wrote is a fallacy . . . argumentum ad numerum or ad populum perhaps even ad antiquitatem. They are all very similar fallacies. Just because it is done and has been done by the masses does not make the ethical problem disappear. To which I reply, yes, but ethics are cultural creations and highly relative; therefore, the actions and norms of the masses do relate to an appeal to ethos. It is no accident that ethics and ethnic both come from the Indo-European root s(w)e. (The reply to that statement, of course, is that so does the word idiot and I would counter your argumentum ad hominem with a raspberry--by which I do not mean the fruit.)

 

I readily admit that there is a disparity in the power relationship between Davey and Brian, which is something the culture I live in (and I assume most of us share) frowns upon to the point of making laws regarding sexual harassment. Davey is rich, has powerful connections, greater knowledge and maturity, and, because of these things, a greater ability to manipulate than Brian has. However, he has not yet made any quid pro quo propositions nor has he created a hostile environment. Likewise, he is not in a position of authority over Brian; Brian and his family are civilian and can not be ordered by Davey unless the President were to establish martial law. Until Davey becomes Brian's superior officer or boss, proposes a tit-for-tat exchange of a sexual nature (not to be confused with tit-for-tit), or uses his power to create a hostile environment, I don't think he's doing anything truly slimey.

 

Davey may be manipulative, but not unethically so.

 

And that concludes my argument with myself. I now feel free to root for Brian and Davey once more.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At the risk of ruining the victory you had arguing with yourself (of course, you knew your opponent well), I want to point out that you are using a legal definition of what constitutes sexual harrassment and then conflating it with proper ethics in dating-type of situations.

 

This may come as a shock to some people, but the law does not always perfectly mirror the ethics of the situation. Sexual harrassment law was enacted to deal with a specific type of problem in a specific environment.

 

Are the 'dating' games people play possibly unethical? Sometimes. It is one thing to put your best foot forward - e.g., wearing cologne when no one would think this means that you ALWAYS wear cologne or inherently smell like cologne. It is another thing to misrepresent who you are through a direct lie, omission, or a misleading statement deliberately meant to make you seem like you are something you aren't. Have most of us crossed this line before? Sure.

 

The problem with Brian/Davey isn't that Davey is just putting his best foot forward. It isn't like Davey discovered from this Brian some clue that tells him that the gun range is an attractive option. He is relying on information that he has about Brian from the prior time line. This is information that Brian hasn't shared with Davey in this time line and that Brian isn't even aware that Davey would have.

 

To bring the analogy of the dating scene back, imagine that Steve asked you what Angela liked as a gift, and you knew that she thought sunflowers were incredily romantic. So you tell this to Steve and he gives her a sunflower without indicating that he was tipped off to this preference. Now, Angela may deduce that Steve just asked someone. But what if it was the kind of thing she didn't really tell people? Let's say she only confessed it to you that she thought it would be romantic if some guy gave her a sunflower in confidence. She may think that Steve just 'gets' her unlike any guy previously, which would be mistaken. And in some way, Steve has manufactured a fake moment of shared intimacy.

 

If Brian KNOWS that Davey knows all these things about him from the past because they were close, then he can choose how to view Davey's behavior. He could be happy anyway - because Davey is trying to make him happy - or he could feel manipulated. For all the talk about asymmetry between Davey and Brian in age, experience, maturity, etc., the real problem here is the asymmetry in information. Brian doesn't know to evaluate Davey in that lens until he really knows the nature of their past relationship.

[Bocian]

Oh shoot lurker, there's nothing more fun than a convenient conflation to cut corners (or alliteration). You are right, law and ethics are not the same, but the law can be viewed as a fence arrived at with a degree of social consensus that keeps members of a society away from the most agregious violations of ethics. And therefore a useful expedient in such conversations unless someone questions the assumption.

 

It occurs to me that if Dan had added just one line that said something about this being Davey's normal weekly target practice time, none of this debate would be going on. What we are debating is not the activity but the motivation. A few words would have made things so much easier to swallow.

 

So, if Davey had dated Brandon in DO, as Dan has said he intended, Davey would have had the same information problem with him because they had been friends in the Prime Time Line and therefore Davey knew Brandon was gay before Brandon did. He hadn't known Brian as well though, and therefore the issue never came up. Or did it?

 

"Football practice after school - be there!" Brian Breckenridge stated flatly, as I'd known he would. That was the thing I'd learned about him in high school. He picked on those that were weaker than him, or didn't stand up for them self. Those that stood up for themselves, he gave a grudging respect to without ever having thrown a punch.

 

"Sure." I said with a shrug. Originally I'd only joined football my freshman year, but I saw nothing wrong with starting a little earlier. Brian, along with a few others from the team had become good friends before my dad moved us to Nevada in the second month of my first year of high school.

 

"See ya, Jones." Breckenridge said as he turned and hurried off towards the school. Everyone who had been watching let out a collective sigh of disappointment and the two girls I'd been walking with looked at me like I was insane.

 

"He could have killed you!" Ronna said after a moment, and as we began to resume our walk to school.

 

"Naw, he's a nice guy deep down." I countered and she just shrugged.

(Do Over, Chapter 2.)

 

So that initial contact that changed everything with Brian and led to their relationship (as they themselves say in in DO chpt. 30) was based upon knowledge little Davey had no "right" to having at that time. Standing up to Brian was the same then as going to the shooting range in DOR or Steve buying a sunflower for Angela in our charming allegory.

 

It seems to me that if it is decided that Davey's use of information from other timelines to forward his relationship is unethical, then he must find a new love in each timeline and put away all feelings for those he knew before. If he acts upon his knowledge, he has an unfair advantage, if he doesn't, he is not acting in an honest and open manner. Even if he could find a person for that clean start, he might still use his other knowledge unwittingly to his advantage, such as getting his boyfriend a nintendo before anyone knew what they were or how cool they would be. I think that it would be highly improbable for Davey not to use his other knowledge in some way. His ethical situation is nearly impossible to navigate if that is the stricture placed upon him.

 

I believe we must consider the highly subjective "reasonableness" of the ethical demands we place on the character before passing judgement. Because my arguement above is based upon negative logic (the impossibility of the situation rather than its "rightness"), it's not terribly convincing even to myself. But I do believe it illustrates the unreasonableness of our expectations for Davey's actions.

 

Hmm . . . I think I still need to think about this some more. I'm also always interested in getting second, third, and tertiary opinions.

 

P.S. Saw Revenge of the Sith tonight finally. It was largely what I had expected: fun, emotionally draining, and bipolar to a fault. Perhaps I'm just too closed minded about it. I wouldn't object to Hayden Christiansen coming over and convincing me otherwise though.

[Novelty]

I wouldn't object to Hayden Christiansen coming over and convincing me otherwise though.

Heh, I'll run a lightsabre through him if I do see him, that arrogant bastard

 

Anyways, Bocian, I think you're missing one key point - motivation on Davey's part. In the first Do Over, there was no motivation to use the knowledge of being where he wasn't suppose to be to get Brian as his (Davey's) boyfriend. With the shooting incident it is clearly stated by Dan that he was manipulating Brian with the infomation he had so that Brian could be, at the very least, "impressed" with him. That is what I'm uncomfortable with. The former was an accident, the latter was a deliberate act. Now I'm not a lawyer, or a philosopher or an ethicist (or whatever they are called), but the premeditated act of deliberately steering Brian's emotions is disturbing to me. Is it wrong, is it right? I have no idea to that question. All I'm saying is that the idea of what Davey did deliberately makes me uncomfortable.

[Masked Monkey]

At the risk of crossing topics with lurker,

 

I see the key problem of the Davey/Brian thing being the inherent dishonesty that Davey is bringing to the relationship (yes lurker, thats my key word). In DO (TL2) Davey's interactions were not dishonest. Knowing tha someone is a nice guy 'deep down' is hardly the use of knowldge from a previous timeline, but a carful consideration of his base character. Yes, his consideration may be influenced by his prior knowledge, but it was not decided by it. If Brian had given any indication that Davey was wrong about his base character, I'm sure Davey would have handeled it differently.

 

In DOR (TL3) Davey is using specific prior knowledge of Brian's likes and dislikes. (I hope Davey and Brian have the discussion before they have sex in this timeline so I can enjoy thinking about Davey doing all the things that Brian likes without the dishonesty). It isn't the same as the dating analogy, Davey didn't ask Trevor, Brandon or Mr. or Mrs. B if Brian would like to fire his gun. Davey knew from past intamate knowledge of Brian .. from a past relationship with Brian.

 

In essence, it isn't the use of the past knowledge per say, but more the use of the past relationship to shape and affect the current relationship without informing Brian of the past relationship.

 

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

[lurker]

So, if Davey had dated Brandon in DO, as Dan has said he intended, Davey would have had the same information problem with him because they had been friends in the Prime Time Line and therefore Davey knew Brandon was gay before Brandon did. He hadn't known Brian as well though, and therefore the issue never came up. Or did it?

 

"Football practice after school - be there!" Brian Breckenridge stated flatly, as I'd known he would. That was the thing I'd learned about him in high school. He picked on those that were weaker than him, or didn't stand up for them self. Those that stood up for themselves, he gave a grudging respect to without ever having thrown a punch.

 

"Sure." I said with a shrug. Originally I'd only joined football my freshman year, but I saw nothing wrong with starting a little earlier. Brian, along with a few others from the team had become good friends before my dad moved us to Nevada in the second month of my first year of high school.

 

"See ya, Jones." Breckenridge said as he turned and hurried off towards the school. Everyone who had been watching let out a collective sigh of disappointment and the two girls I'd been walking with looked at me like I was insane.

 

"He could have killed you!" Ronna said after a moment, and as we began to resume our walk to school.

 

"Naw, he's a nice guy deep down." I countered and she just shrugged.

(Do Over, Chapter 2.)

 

So that initial contact that changed everything with Brian and led to their relationship (as they themselves say in in DO chpt. 30) was based upon knowledge little Davey had no "right" to having at that time. Standing up to Brian was the same then as going to the shooting range in DOR or Steve buying a sunflower for Angela in our charming allegory.

 

It seems to me that if it is decided that Davey's use of information from other timelines to forward his relationship is unethical, then he must find a new love in each timeline and put away all feelings for those he knew before. If he acts upon his knowledge, he has an unfair advantage, if he doesn't, he is not acting in an honest and open manner. Even if he could find a person for that clean start, he might still use his other knowledge unwittingly to his advantage, such as getting his boyfriend a nintendo before anyone knew what they were or how cool they would be. I think that it would be highly improbable for Davey not to use his other knowledge in some way. His ethical situation is nearly impossible to navigate if that is the stricture placed upon him.

 

I believe we must consider the highly subjective "reasonableness" of the ethical demands we place on the character before passing judgement. Because my arguement above is based upon negative logic (the impossibility of the situation rather than its "rightness"), it's not terribly convincing even to myself. But I do believe it illustrates the unreasonableness of our expectations for Davey's actions.

 

Hmm . . . I think I still need to think about this some more. I'm also always interested in getting second, third, and tertiary opinions.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with you that Davey is in a very difficult ethical place in general. He has all this information from the future and the entire DO/DOR series forces Davey to come to terms with what he should and should not share and to whom he should share information with.

 

When it comes to general information about the world, whether it be geopolitics or disease (AIDS), Davey has a much more difficult time in DO than in DOR. His being in the past was an accident. In DOR, it is much easier, because Davey is acting in his military capacity (and because he has worked through some basic questions having had the DO experience). It is more clear what Davey should and should not do. Dan has done a nice job setting up some rules for Davey and having him stick with them.

 

The problem is how we view Davey's relationships with the people around him. He's always going to have information about other people from the past time lines to work with. Focusing on his intent is very complicated, because a person can have more than one intent for why he does things. I'm not saying motivation isn't important, but that it isn't the most important detail.

 

To me, as I said, the key is letting the other person in the relationship KNOW that he has information. Davey can solve this problem simply by making sure that the other person is aware that he is a time traveler and has some general sense of the relationship they've had with Davey in the past. If not, then there is an asymmetry that relationship. Without the information hook, Davey is robbing the person of his or her own free will just a little bit. Once the person is aware that Davey may know something about them due to the type of relationship they've had, then he can choose how to respond and how to view what Davey presents.

 

Thus, when Davey stands up to Brian to begin with, it doesn't matter quite as much whether his intention was more to befriend Brian or save his own behind. Because Brian does not know that Davey knows him - at least a little bit - from the past time line, Davey is manipulating Brian. I can let it slide in DO, because Davey does not rely on past information while building his friendship with Brian (because he wasn't close friends with Brian beforehand) and then he does come clean to Brian, curing that informational asymmetry.

 

I think we accept in DO/DOR that sometimes Davey does and SHOULD manipulate others. An interesting example that better shows that we can accept Davey deliberately manipulating other people based on information is Davey's relationship with his father. In DO, Davey tries to manipulate his father to save his family. He clearly is acting with intent to manipulate and has information - but no one here would say it is unethical, because he's trying to prevent wrong from being done. Interestingly, Davey is more successful in shaping his father in DOR, where he has cured the informational asymmetry.

 

My difficulty lies with Davey manipulating Brian when Brian does not know the truth about their past relationship. Once Davey tells him - if he does - then this problem is cured.

 

The best justification for Davey deliberately manipulating Brian into a relationship is that he knows it to be necessary/right (the opposite of trying to get his father to not molest his sister). The problem, though, is that by interfering with Brian's free will just a touch and leading him into the relationship through manipulation, Davey undermines the equality/shared intimacy of that relationship in a fundamental way.

 

So, the upshot is that Davey needs to TELL BRIAN THAT THEY WERE MARRIED!

 

Edited to Add: Since Snow Dog and I posted at the exact same time, I didn't see his response when I wrote this. But I agree with what he said.

[dkstories]

Hehe, I really like this discussion arc, especially since some of it is included in my internal debate over what Davey would do in different circumstances.

 

[Masked Monkey]

Edited to Add: Since Snow Dog and I posted at the exact same time, I didn't see his response when I wrote this. But I agree with what he said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course you do ... I'm always right .

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

[lurker]

Edited to Add: Since Snow Dog and I posted at the exact same time, I didn't see his response when I wrote this. But I agree with what he said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course you do ... I'm always right .

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right is just a value judgment that you label your opinion with. My theology dictates otherwise - oh wait- maybe those were just the voices in my head...

[Masked Monkey]

Edited to Add: Since Snow Dog and I posted at the exact same time, I didn't see his response when I wrote this. But I agree with what he said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course you do ... I'm always right .

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right is just a value judgment that you label your opinion with. My theology dictates otherwise - oh wait- maybe those were just the voices in my head...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I could prove it, but I suspect you don't have a sufficeint background in group theory, topology, complex anaysis, non-Markovian process, and abstract algebra )

[SamadIdris]

Chapter 22

 

 

 

It's good, in a way, that Sean actually got drunk enough to fully express himself.

At least now Davey has a clearer picture on some things in the past (first timeline).

And Sean managed to get some bugging things off his chest.

 

Being drunk does remove one's inhibitations (and common sense), so that's why Sean was so frank and upfront.

But when sober again, he'll come to realize that the past is the past.

And no matter how much he hates Davey, that won't change the past (theoretically).

 

At least Davey changed for the better in the second timeline.

Thus, that itself should be atonement already for the mean things he did to Sean out of ignorance in the first timeline.

 

Since the next few chapters of DOR is chronologically day by day, it's going to be a few more weeks of exciting cliffhangers.

[Masked Monkey]

**Warning -- Bad Mood Alert**

 

 

Chapter 22

 

 

 

It's good, in a way, that Sean actually got drunk enough to fully express himself.

At least now Davey has a clearer picture on some things in the past (first timeline).

And Sean managed to get some bugging things off his chest.

 

Being drunk does remove one's inhibitations (and common sense), so that's why Sean was so frank and upfront.

But when sober again, he'll come to realize that the past is the past.

And no matter how much he hates Davey, that won't change the past (theoretically).

 

At least Davey changed for the better in the second timeline.

Thus, that itself should be atonement already for the mean things he did to Sean out of ignorance in the first timeline.

 

Since the next few chapters of DOR is chronologically day by day, it's going to be a few more weeks of exciting cliffhangers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As usual, there is always someone to put the 'rainbow' spin on everything, I'm sure more will come along. I posted my optinions in Dan's blog

https://www.gayauthors.org/forums/blog/dkst...=149#comment596

probably best if you 'rainbow' types don't bother reading it, you might be a bit put off by the tone.

 

 

Snow Dog the Do .. who gives a crap

[lurker]

I'm going to respond to your comments in the blog in this thread, Snow Dog, along with the other remarks. Hopefully, this can keep the discussion consolidated (ha! yeah right!).

 

Anyway, I felt that this was a chapter of vindication for me. Sean's words could have been mine. Davey has been playing super-hero in his Do Over, and we haven't really gotten any chance to see this narrative from the perspective of any other character. Everyone is always interacting with Davey, we get Davey's comments about how they all feel - and it always has come with the filter of Davey's view of the world. Davey, Davey, Davey.

 

This chapter is no different in that we are still getting Davey's recounting of what happened, but it gives us a better sustained view of someone else's words about Davey than we've ever had before (with the exception of Brian).

 

My perspective of Davey hasn't changed because of what Sean has said. He still is the exact same guy who f**ked up his life in TL1 and redeemed himself in TL2 under difficult circumstances. Since I never thought Davey was as perfect as he thought he was, hearing another voice does not change that. Nor does it change that he has been trying to be a good guy and do the right thing - often with great success.

 

The interesting insight in this chapter is into Sean. He is bitter and depressed, of course, not to mention drunk. But his emotions are deliciously complex. He remembered Davey as a bully from TL1 years after the fact (usually a sign that he 'liked' the bully and hated him at the same time). His decision to come back and warn Davey now can be seen as guilt as much as friendship/love. He owes Davey because it is HIS fault that Davey is where he is, and this is the same Davey that 'repaid' his revenge with kindness in TL2. The fact that he harbors resentment and hostility from the past timelines clashes with the fact that Davey really is his friend now (from TL2) and is his only true friend in TL3.

 

The most exciting parts to wait and see are:

1) How does Sean reconcile all his feelings and adjust to the Do Over?

2) How does Davey respond to being taken down a notch (which has been a long time coming)? Will he be more suspicious that his friends resent him? After all this time of being Davey Jones, can he actually act differently?

 

So, I liked this chapter very much and await the next one...

[Masked Monkey]

** bad mood warning is still in effect **

 

Anyway, I felt that this was a chapter of vindication for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I grant you the battle, I shan't allow my emotional desires to cloud my arguments in the future.

 

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

 

Maybe I'll find my good mood on the freeway driving home :mace:

[Trebs]

Sean's bitter (duh)... and feels Brandon is dead. He's seen TL3's Brandon, and it isn't his husband anymore.

 

He's now living with hunky surfer-type navy Petty Officer Kevin... who he knows appreciates a good blow job.

 

So - how quickly does Sean try to seduce Kevin, and does he try to get him drunk to make it easier? And if he succeeds, does Kevin feel guilty about Sean being jailbait at 14, or can he accept that Sean is older than him? And with Brandon free, does David Wells finally have someone who might be a decent boyfriend fit for him? Without a barn, where will David and Brandon try to hook up?

 

 

PS - I have always HATED the concept that Brandon and Sean wouldn't hook up. But after DOR 22 - I wonder. I do hope that in being Davey's ... grounding rod (keeping him in tune with his past and who he truly is) will also help Sean raise himself up, and give him some badly needed confidence.

 

 

----------------

What would touch me deeper

Tears that fall from eyes that only cry?

Would it touch you deeper

Than tears that fall from eyes that know why?