[dkstories] Do Over Redux

[Novelty]

Wow, lots of reviews here. Do you guys reall need another one from me? Expect the 22 review to be much delayed - life is hell at the moment - but yes, I do have something to say that's slightly different from all this discussion about Sean!

[Ender]

Well, I can honestly say that's not what I expected to happen when Sean and Davey go drunk together. I expected Sean to hit on Davey, and try to convince him it wasn't worth waiting for Brian, not for him to bitterly open up on him with both barrels. I do hope that Davey tones down the ego a bit though.

[Masked Monkey]

Wow, lots of reviews here.  Do you guys reall need another one from me?   Expect the 22 review to be much delayed - life is hell at the moment - but yes, I do have something to say that's slightly different from all this discussion about Sean!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But I for one love your reviews

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

[Masked Monkey]

----------------

What would touch me deeper

Tears that fall from eyes that only cry?

Would it touch you deeper

Than tears that fall from eyes that know why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Waiting for the winds of change

To sweep the clouds away

Waiting for the rainbow's end

To cast its gold your way

Countless ways

You pass the days

 

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

[Rad]

Dear Dan,

 

O.M.F.G!

 

What a drama! Sure, get two guys drunk and they said things they never meant to say. And all true! This add weight to the saying that there are things best left unsaid. Huhhhhh... I'm still struggling to believe. Davey and Sean are not as innocent as I once thought. The first time line was not explored here. Davey's life before the first Do Over. I would never thought he's a bully before. We know that Sean was the assisstant during the first and second Do Over. It was apparent too. The fact that during the first Do Over Sean chose Davey in the hope he'd died stunned me. Also the fact that Sean actually hated Davey so much he'd expected him to die, no great loss. I think the view is somewhat clouded by the wonderful relationship Sean and Davey had during the first Do Over.

 

Sean wanted Davey to die.... That is stunning.

 

You really create dsome nasty twists and turns here Dan. I thought with Brian and the original group coming, things would quieted down a bit. After Davey's turmoil of being separated from Brian and his anguish over the massacre of his family members. Instead you have Sean went back in time. Okay, that was fine but now this? This would surely effect the relationship between Sean and Davey. I mean, if I knew that someone wanted me dead, even already doing what he thought would kill me, I'd sure as hell watch my back anytime he's near me. Regardless that I was to blame before. Hell, I did not want him dead. While Sean already worked for it. Nothing less than a betrayal for me. Granted it was done two lifetimes ago and things are different right now. But what if Sean has that killing tendency again? Scary...

 

Forgetting what Sean had said? How could Davey? *shivering* Wanting people dead is bad enough, though we all done that once in a while. To actually consider his life to be worthless enough to be risked in a dangerous experiment is..... barbaric. I never knew Sean had that vengeance streak within him. What brought this Dan? After all the tragedies and surprises. Whew! I guess nothing is like what they seem to be.

 

You delivered the bomb right after I had myself smiling over the situation between the Air Force and the Marines. I was smiling because the two services [Marine is counted as a separate service right?] dislike one another and Davey had to devise the protocol for them to cooperate. Say, Dan were you a marine once? I remember you said something about a tour of duty in Panama during the ousting of Noriega but I'm not sure. Or were you a Navy SEAL? lol! The fact that Ridgeway [the handsome surfer-boi Ridgeway] had that suck off the coast of Panama BTW what's a PBR? Always amazed me on how you can tell a lie but keep it as close as possible with the truth. In General Barstow's speech to the towns people of Eureka the lies are shrouded with just enough truth to make it like the truth. The best kind of lie I thought Eureka doesn't have a football team?

 

Oh well. I'll be waiting for the next chapter. Dreadfully I may add. Whatever is gonna happen to Sean and Davey? That's all for now Dan. I hope you fine, safe and happy wherever you are

 

With kind regards from

 

Rad

[lurker]

Just finished Chapter 23 aka The Religion of Davey

 

It was mostly an exposition-y chapter, so there isn't a lot to comment about (although I was happy to hear Davey's 'Brian speech' to his Dad), but the end of the chapter poses an interesting question about Davey, God, and finding meaning in life.

 

This past weekend, I had a discussion with two friends about divine providence and the ability to recognize it vs. free will. Fun stuff, of course. Anyway, one of the friends asked me what I thought about people who explained certain bad events [insert one of your choice] as God's will or punishment for improper behavior. She had been hearing such statements from the fanatical elements of the community - people who are friendly and welcoming on a personal level. The dissonance struck her, and she tends to come to me as the neighborhood educated non-fanatic.

 

I turned to my friend and said, "Well, someone who tells you that [x bad event] happened because of God' will or punishment is a heretic." She pointed out that she had never heard me express anything that stark before, and I explained that purported religious God-fearing people who claim to understand WHY things happen in a cosmic sense (to explain why God 'does' things) are a major pet peeve of mine, because I feel it undermines the entire belief system (of the delicate balance between free will & providence and our inability to process/perfectly judge the world around us). I told her I stood by my remarks and then backed off a little by adding "Of course, it's all just perspective. They think I'm a heretic too."

 

And with that background, I read Davey pondering what God's plan for him & his family really is. At first, I cringed when Davey suggested that the reason the family members died is that they hadn't had good lives in the past timeline. I wanted to yell "heretic!" Then, though, with the evolution of his thoughts, I understood that he wasn't justifying their deaths or explaining them away. Instead, he was making peace with it as best he knew how.

 

Perhaps it was all for the best. I sense that Davey is allowing himself to believe that things can/will work out for the best. Of course, if you believe that, then it can be easier to act in such a way that things DO turn out for the best (self-fulfilling prophesy) or at least that you feel that things happened for some reason. That doesn't mean that you know the reason or can identify where free will ends and providence begins. As Davey says, it is a crutch of sorts - but that doesn't make it bad. And as the chapter points out, he has faced more loss than most (especially if we add Brian from the past timeline to the list).

 

Davey is in a critical place in this Do Over. Sean brought him a dose of humility, but his religious connection is doing the same - or at least has the potential to do the same. He is 'changing' the world, though as has been pointed out before, from the God omniscient viewpoint, he isn't. His mother blames him for what has happened. Dealing with this necessarily forces Davey to reconcile what must be and what to do with his power to make a difference in the world - the world that he's in.

 

Even super-heros need champions. In the past timeline, Davey got his strength and security from Brian. In this one, he seems to be turning to God/religion. Nothing wrong with that, from my standpoint.

[SamadIdris]

Chapter 23

 

 

Yay. Everything is as anticipated.

From the way things seem to be developing, Davey is going to get another shot at Brian.

Not sure what's the outcome for Sean and Brandon though.

 

But one thing still worries me- the last line from chapter 21-

Why it gave me a nagging little sliver of worry, I wasn

[Masked Monkey]

The arrogant side of me thinks that Dan wrote this chapter to see just how nasty lurker and I could be to each other without getting 'personal'. The realistic side of me says that Dan is ending one story arc and starting another and needed to bridge the two.

 

After living in 3 timelines, there is nothing left for Davey to hold onto except religion, nothing else remains constant, not people, not technology, not history ... nothing, well, except science. Davey's religious upbringing, and the amount of death he has seen and caused would prevent him from accepting a purely material world, thus he is only left with God to provide real comfort. The God he will pick is the God he grew up with (as a mental child) and that is the God of his father before his father's descent. He has that father now, and a real relationship with that father, something he never had before.

 

I suspect Sean will take the another route, probably, he will become a sex-crazed extrovert in search for nihilistic destruction.

 

At the risk of having to flame myself :fire: , this chapter is one of the few times I miss the lack of internal dialog. We see the results of that dialog in Davey's talk to his dad, but we never get to 'be' with Davey while he makes these decisions. One of the beauties of Dan's writing is that the unwritten internal dialog is probably not too much different than the narrative discussion of religion and the curch community at the end.

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal and Future Emperor of the World

[lurker]

The arrogant side of me thinks that Dan wrote this chapter to see just how nasty lurker and I could be to each other without getting 'personal'.  The realistic side of me says that Dan is ending one story arc and starting another and needed to bridge the two.

 

After living in 3 timelines, there is nothing left for Davey to hold onto except religion, nothing else remains constant, not people, not technology, not history ... nothing, well, except science.  Davey's religious upbringing, and the amount of death he has seen and caused would prevent him from accepting a purely material world, thus he is only left with God to provide real comfort.  The God he will pick is the God he grew up with (as a mental child) and that is the God of his father before his father's descent.  He has that father now, and a real relationship with that father, something he never had before. 

 

I suspect Sean will take the another route, probably, he will become a sex-crazed extrovert in search for nihilistic destruction.

 

Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal and Future Emperor of the World

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hehe. I'm not quite deluded enough to have even thought of it that way, I suppose. I suspect there are a lot of worse things that could happen in the story if Dan really wanted to see how nasty we could get (e.g., "Then God struck Sean with a lightning bold and declared 'Death to the scientist infidel!'"). Of course, Dan writes for no one but himself and the story. And maybe that other guy too. No, not God. His new sidekick, Boy-Shmoopy.

 

I agree with you that this chapter could be a bridge - I expect the next one is going to start out months later after the Modesto families have already settled in.

 

Davey's relationship with his parents is one parallel we've already discussed (mom vs. dad) throughout the timelines. You mention that Davey automatically reaches for his father's God, at least before his father has fallen (or is prevented from it).

 

I thought this chapter set up an interesting parallel between Davey and his father and their own relationship with religion. I think it is part of what makes Davey so much more able to connect with his father. Davey is moving toward the religion of his childhood, but his father is moving away from it and leaving the church for something else. Davey's Dad is finding that he has purpose in life outside of the church - both as a father and in career. Davey spent his first Do Over with nothing but outside purpose - both in his family life (with Brian) and career (working with the government at first and then in the military). Now, he's connecting it all back to the church. And somehow, the two have met in the middle. I really like how Dan played this out.

[Rigel]

The line about religion being a crutch reminds me of one of my favorite lines (attribute it to Rev. William Sloane Coffin, Jr.):

 

"Some people say religion is a crutch. I ask them, what makes you think you don't limp?"

 

One disagreement with Dan/Davey. He says in Chapter 23:

"Yet, here were people who we usually only saw on Sundays, or maybe Wednesday services, or the occasional church function, and they were sharing their sympathy and concern freely, without political motivation or some sense of obligation."

 

I would say there's definitely either/both a social or religious sense of obligation to care for one's fellow man (or woman).

 

--Rigel

[Rad]

Dear Dan,

 

hello there! I hope you're eyesight is better now. Being soemone with glasses, I know how it feels if you don't have glasses. Gawd. The world is a blur. Are you near or farsighted? I read about that new treatment with laser. They cut your retina at an angle where it will reflect view best. You'll get a 20/20 vision in several minutes of surgery. But I dunno... Letting someone cut something vital in my eyes with a laser blade? Er. Sounds drastic. Perhaps one day [i hope NOT] when I'm desperate.

 

Anyway, Do Over 23. Hmmmm. I had thought there would be a massive hard feelings between Davey and Sean. I don't know wether to be happy or dissappointed. No. Scratch that. I AM happy. At this moment Sean is the only friend Davey has from his two previous lives. Making them sick of each other isn't a good thing. All is said and done. All is fogiven and [perhaps] forgotten. What's the difference between Marine Recon and ordinary marines? Why would Davey said it was lucky?

 

Glad to know Jenny wasn't like Davey's mom. When you wrote that she blamed Davey like his mom, I was frightened. Massive hard feelings between Davey and his mom. You know, I sit here and contemplate wether a mother could really hate her son like that. When her son is dissappointing or treat her rudely -even abusively- perhaps. But Davey is neither. He's kind, responsible and -above all- respectful toward his parents. So why? Is it because Davey's mom still couldn't believe wether Davey is really her son - and not someone else in the body of her son? I sit because she really believe that time-travel is against the Will of Heaven? Is it because it directly caused the massacre? Or a combination of all four? Why can't his mom behaved like his dad? Kinda ironic, seeing it's his dad who -in the first DO- became the source of trouble in the family. What went wrong in her head and what went right in his dad's head? I have to admit; Giving someone -a thankless person at that- money and help is galling. I speak from personal experience. You'd feel a like you're an ATM.

 

Wow. What a conversation to have with your dad. I never had one like that with my dad. I regret to say we're kinda distance from one another. I love him and he loves me but we can never bring ourselves to talk heart-to-heart the few times we tried it had been awkward. Davey's dad is being kind and compassionate throughout this timeline. Well, except a few bruises at the very beginning. He treated Davey as Davey's age demanded. Like an adult. Hear and seek Davey's advice. Although I'm surprised that he did bring up Brian in the conversation, but I see he only wanted davey to know. Brian GF!! You could make her die couldn't you? *smiling evilly* This is one innocent death I wouldn't be regretting

 

I consider Brian and Davey's relationship as one of the cornerstones of this story. Please2x bring them back together. Pleaseeeee. It really doesn't matter to me how twisted the storyline would be as long as they got back together. Brian and Davey. Not Davey and David or Davey and Derek. I do like the conversation. Especially when Davey's dad said he's glad Davey needed him ore than countersigning the checks. Leaving the pastorship and became a politician? Wow. Didn't see that coming. Davey's dad enters the politics world. i hope all will be fine.

 

As I'm writing this and listening to Amish Paradise by Weird Al Yankovic, I'd like too ask if it's possible for you to create a funny chapter. I mean, all things funny in that chapter With all the tragedies, the tensions, the angst, politics and intrigues. I think it'd be good if you can create a thoroughly funny, amusing and entertaining chpater. Just one chapter Please think about it

 

Dan, Ihope all is fine with your life right now. The sermon about Job the Sufferer and how God wouldn't put a person to trials more than he coul endure is really good. So apt for the occasion. You have a philosopher inside you Care to expand your philosophy in the story?

 

Okay Dan. That's all for now. I really like all your stories -despite the huge death-toll in all of them. You're one of my favourites! I hope you the best! I hope you fine, happy and safe wherever you are.

 

With kind regards from

 

Rad

[Masked Monkey]

The sermon about Job the Sufferer and how God wouldn't put a person to trials more than he coul endure is really good.

 

Rad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I only bring this up because somebody mentioned it. One thing I never understood about Job was why God allowed himself to be played like that, talk about giving into temptation. God was being arrogant to have to prove to satan the devotion of his followers. It would be one thing for satan to screw up Job's life while God watches without directly intervening, it is another for God to sit around with satan and discuss the systematic dismantling of someone's life over coffee and donuts, I suspect what wasn't included in the story was Billy Ray overhearing the discussion of the $1 bet while in the bathroom. Oh well, just one of those things that always bugged me about the story.

 

Snow (no longer mid 30's ) Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

 

(thinking about giving up thoughts of world domination)

[lurker]

I only bring this up because somebody mentioned it.  One thing I never understood about Job was why God allowed himself to be played like that, talk about giving into temptation.  God was being arrogant to have to prove to satan the devotion of his followers.  It would be one thing for satan to screw up Job's life while God watches without directly intervening, it is another for God to sit around with satan and discuss the systematic dismantling of someone's life over coffee and donuts, I suspect what wasn't included in the story was Billy Ray overhearing the discussion of the $1 bet while in the bathroom.  Oh well, just one of those things that always bugged me about the story.

 

Snow (no longer mid 30's  ) Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

 

(thinking about giving up thoughts of world domination)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Job is a tough book to read, and I don't mean because of the major plot points. Seriously, have you guys read it? Speeches, speeches, speeches, boring, boring, boring.

 

Job is the quintessential book to pose the question 'Why do bad things happen to good people?' I don't think the answer is supposed to be because God and Satan got together for coffee and donuts and made the kind of bet you see in movies. The big reveal at the end, after all, is God's argument: "Were you there when I had said coffee & donuts? Didn't think so."

 

The anthropomorphic God concept is troublesome, no matter the context. The story is an allegory, and I think the inclusion of Satan is an important part of it - espcially once the idea of Satan is considered as being part of the same God. Monotheism dictates that Satan is either one and the same as God - the 'flipside' name used when we don't like the outcome or Satan is a lesser non-human being that serves under God - sort of as an agent given one particular trait/characteristic.

 

God has many facets that can not be understood by humans. One part of that is the piece that some may call 'Satan.' All we can see is what happens to us and we must live our lives accordingly - even though we'll never know what is a product of what may seem like coffee, donuts & a bet. If the tragedy that befell Job happened for a nobler reason, it would defeat the message of the allegory.

 

Given that, the most disturbing thing to me is not the behavior of God, but the behavior of Job's alleged friends. With friends like those, who needs enemies? (and dare I point out their heresy?) Bad things will happen, and there are ways to see friends through crisis. Blaming people for misfortune OR attributing it to coffee, donuts & a bet - neither method is particularly helpful to the sufferer.

 

Anyway, that's just my two cents. And don't worry Snow Dog, there has to be a place in this world for the middle-aged to achieve global domination.

[Masked Monkey]

Personally if you perform any good deed because of a feeling of obligation, religous or otherwise, you have cheapened the act. Repaying a debt is one thing.  Expressing sympathy because you feel you must and not because of true sadness is hollow and a waste of time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I always felt that these 'churchy' expressions of sympathy were more of a socially acceptable form of gossip ("oh look how miserable he must be") than a true expression of emotion, thus, they leave me feeling 'icky' whether I see them or read them.

 

Gotta wash my hands now.

 

Snow Dog

[lurker]

Personally if you perform any good deed because of a feeling of obligation, religous or otherwise, you have cheapened the act. Repaying a debt is one thing.  Expressing sympathy because you feel you must and not because of true sadness is hollow and a waste of time.

 

Just my two cents

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem is that it is pretty much impossible to express sincere sympathy without having an empathy.

 

Many other good deeds are more act-centric and the motivation matters far less. If I donate $100 to feed a family, does the family that gets to eat really care if the food came from my desire to get a tax deduction or my most altruistic nature (and nevermind asking the utilitarian whether there is EVER pure altruism)? The act may be 'cheapened' in some sense for the actor. It is by no means cheapened for the recipients unless it is handled in a manner that demeans them.

 

The message of sympathy is "You are not alone and I am here to do whatever you need me to at this time of need." You can bring a sandwich to the widow no matter your reason. But if you lack a true motivation for sympathy, then you probably just can't pull it off.

[Rad]

Dear Dan,

 

I'm against pre-emptive strike! That is the same as the sneak attack the Japanese did in Pearl Harbor. Besides, the Japanese pre-emptive strike backfired. Moral went, not down but up at fever pitch. The carriers were not destroyed, the oil tanks and the ship reparation facilities were left intact. What of Alexei escaped alive? What if there's a anti-nuclear bunker beneath the warehouse? So many things could go wrong. Not to mention international repercussions. And oh, let's not forget nuclear war. 2500 warheads alone could flattened a country the size of USSR, USA and China. I believe they have MORE.

 

A question of moral. If you attack first than the Russian people would see it as another patriotic war. The same with Napoleonic and German invasions. Russia was weak at attack but extremely strong at defense. Now they could unleash nineteen thousand tanks on Europe. If you use nukes, so will they. Besides, if Davey already know the source of Chinese economic power, he could use that against them. No need for war at this stage. USSR and China cover more than thirty million square kilometers of land. Frozen land under Siberian sun. How on earth are you gonna hold that conquest? Or conquer it in the first place? This is no Batu Khan and the conquest of Kiev. He didn't need oil! His horses got plenty of food. Oil freezes in winter.

 

Germany and France could be lost. Well, nobody likes France, but still... What about South Korea? Turkey? I heard that Turkish forces in the Korean war fought bravely and doggedly. So I guess they might be able to halt the Russians somewhere south of the Caucasus. But Europe? Could the Russians be stopped before the Rhine? Or at the Rhine? Pre-emptive strike is BAD. It makes one seems like a hegemonic power nervous and afraid of losing her hegemony and determine to hold on to it. The agressor. In the last time line USSR was the agressor and they were defeated, as they should. Now you're the agressor. If you're stopped, that's morally right. Why not use counter-intelligence? Like the Chinese did. CIA must have long arm. Why not use it? Or Soviet and Chinese dissidents.

 

Ithuralde? Is that an anglo-saxon name? BTW, hahahahahahahaha...that's FUNNY! lol! A case of misunderstanding. Ithuralde must be reaaaally embarassed. Gawd. I'd be red-faced if I were him. Bill Oliver? What's HIS problem? Ugh. If he didn't wanna be friends with Davey, he should've let others who would. Not trying to come between them. It made him look envious. A coward too. Big mouth and a bully but didn't have the power to back his threat. Not interested in a fight? Then why pick one? Huh!

 

Ookay Dan That's all for this week k? I hope you find, safe and happy wherever you are. I'm glad with your newfound happiness with your boyfriend My regards for you and him. k?

 

With kind regards from

 

Rad

[dkstories]

Well, several of Rad's questions are answered in 26, which has just been finished and is off to the editor. If he's not bogged down with other projects (or boyfriend - congrats by the way), it might be done by Friday. If it is, well I'll do my best to get it posted.

 

I really hate the idea of a Friday going by without y'all getting a new chapter.

 

Oh, and um, thank Trebs that this chapter got done. His love and constant support have helped me get over this case of writer's block and get motivated to get back to writing.

[EMoe57]

*scurries off to check the mailbox*

 

well whadaya know - it IS here!

 

If he's not bogged down with other projects (or boyfriend - congrats by the way), it might be done by Friday.

Thanks! We aren't as far along as you two but ain't love grand this time of year...

 

*disappears to go start reading*

[EMoe57]

DK, there's a little Good morning! present in your mailbox...

[Masked Monkey]

Oh, and um, thank Trebs that this chapter got done.  His love and constant support have helped me get over this case of writer's block and get motivated to get back to writing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay Trebs, as far as I am concerned, you can put the Nomex suit away . I would keep the anti-venom around just in case .

 

:king: Snow Dog the Domaholic Danderthal

[Trebs]

Oh, and um, thank Trebs that this chapter got done.

[Masked Monkey]

Actually, the Nomax suit has come in handy...  see, Dan likes to play dress-up and when he wears...

 

Um, never mind - let's just say         

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't realize they made them in 'baseball uniform' style.

 

:king: Snow Dog

[lurker]

Actually, the Nomax suit has come in handy...

[Masked Monkey]

Actually, the Nomax suit has come in handy...  see, Dan likes to play dress-up and when he wears...

 

Um, never mind - let's just say         

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't realize they made them in 'baseball uniform' style.

 

:king: Snow Dog

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dangit! I was gonna say that!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you snooze, you lose oh, wait, maybe you just lose

 

I think this excerpt from the DuPont website is appropriate:

 

"In essential performance areas such as flame resistance, thermal protection, comfort and durability, no other brand compares to NOMEX

Edited June 22, 2005 by Snow Dog