[dkstories] Do Over Redux

[ethan thorn]

And you also have to remember that brian is not the same brian from the first do over.

[NaperVic]

And you also have to remember that brian is not the same brian from the first do over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is so true. I happened to be re-reading some of the earlier chapters of DO and came across these quotes from Brian talking to Davey(Ch 6):

 

"Shhh, you're not to blame if he has it now." Brian said softly and I tensed at his words. They were what I wanted, what I needed to hear, but I didn't know why he was saying them. "You told me this disease takes months to incubate, at least six, right? That means he already had it before you came back to this time, and that means no matter what, he would have had the disease."

 

...

 

"Then don't stress out over it." Brian said firmly. "If you can't save him, you can't save him. I'm not going to hate you for that."

 

These quotes are exact 180's from Brian at the End of DOR Ch 20. Considering how Davey's mom has changed in this time line, I'm very nervous about this Brian

 

Vic

Edited May 19, 2005 by naper_vic

[Guest Starbolt]

Hi, I am new here but wanted to add my voice to the many others that are praising DOR. I have found it to be a wonderful story with superb characters ... although I would like t know if Brian is going to be the love of Davey's life again! Ahhhh ... To wait and see when the next chapter is out!

You've done an excellent job!

[Masked Monkey]

And you also have to remember that brian is not the same brian from the first do over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't disagree more. This Biran is exactly the same Brian as before, all that has changed are his experiences from March 1981 on. His soul (or the core of his heart) is identical. The same is true for every person in the timeline (with the exception of the time travelers). It is Davey who is different, it is only because the narration is from his point of view that this isn't obvious. Davey won Brian's heart by being honest, open and giving with him. Brian practically defines loyalty. Davey gives Brian the ability to totally trust in someone with all of his being, and in return gives total trust and support. Davey didn't show Brian any honesty or openness in this timeline, so Brian has nothing but contempt (and the hots) for Davey (as do I at this point).

[Masked Monkey]

And you also have to remember that brian is not the same brian from the first do over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is so true. I happened to be re-reading some of the earlier chapters of DO and came across these quotes from Brian talking to Davey(Ch 6):

 

"Shhh, you're not to blame if he has it now." Brian said softly and I tensed at his words. They were what I wanted, what I needed to hear, but I didn't know why he was saying them. "You told me this disease takes months to incubate, at least six, right? That means he already had it before you came back to this time, and that means no matter what, he would have had the disease."

 

...

 

"Then don't stress out over it." Brian said firmly. "If you can't save him, you can't save him. I'm not going to hate you for that."

 

These quotes are exact 180's from Brian at the End of DOR Ch 20. Considering how Davey's mom has changed in this time line, I'm very nervous about this Brian

 

Vic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Here too, I think the real point is lost in blind support of poor Davey. In TL2 Davey EARNED the loyalty and trust of Brian by giving him honesty and love. Davey had already decided not to affect the timeline (except for personal benefit), but his love for Brian led him to work toward combating the social and medical effects of HIV/AIDS. Davey gave Brian, his uncle, and the world a great gift out of love and honor, and Brian rewarded Davey with total, unquestioned loyalty (in addition to a few other things over the years).

 

Any differences in non-timetravel characters is due to the CHOICES of the time travelers, not changes in their base personality, and certainly not their psychological makeup. Brian could come up with a slew of choice words for Davey and could hate Davey for the rest of the timeline and I will defend Brian to the end, unless and until Davey earns the right to love Brian.

[Masked Monkey]

Snowdog

 

I think you've hit on some good points. Brian has conflicting issues to deal with and will do it in his own time. How it will turn out will depend on how Davy chooses to handle him and of course to paraphrase Novelty "How evil Dan is"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just sick and tired of people baggin' on Brian that I get frustrated . I mean what did Davey do that was so great? Nuke some Soviets? Drown some Chinese? Oh yea, die once. I don't recall Davey spending years of his life to save Brian. It is too easy to take Brian for granted, and it is also easy to win Brian's heart ... but you won't do both.

 

Oh and I don't think Dan being evil has anything to do with what happens between Davey and Brian. If he stays true to the characters, the outcome is inevitable no matter how hard he tries.

[oh Sh1t, ...

https://www.gayauthors.org/forums/blog/dkst...id=531#comments

hides rattlesnakes, deletes unsent PM to Myr, breaks stick ... ... move along, nothing to see here ]

[Trebs]

I'm just sick and tired of people baggin' on Brian that I get frustrated  .  I mean what did Davey do that was so great?  Nuke some Soviets? Drown some Chinese? Oh yea, die once.  I don't recall Davey spending years of his life to save Brian.  It is too easy to take Brian for granted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Gotta say I agree - when I read [the evil] DO38, it was the December 24, 1988 entry that really hit me. Not that Davey was dead, but that Brian had tried to kill himself because of the pain...

It hurts, oh mother-f**king god it hurts! He was my light, my soul, my love, and he's gone. We're barely eighteen, and he's f**king gone! It's not fair!

 

December 24, 1988

Well, I'm out of the hospital where they put me after I nearly killed myself.

[Novelty]

Not that Davey was dead, but that Brian had tried to kill himself because of the pain...

Going on a tangent a bit... if Brian had successfully killed himself there, would it be justified (if justified is the right word)? Since Dan was going to reset that timeline anyways, he could have killed Brian off there and then...

[Trebs]

Not that Davey was dead, but that Brian had tried to kill himself because of the pain...

Going on a tangent a bit... if Brian had successfully killed himself there, would it be justified (if justified is the right word)? Since Dan was going to reset that timeline anyways, he could have killed Brian off there and then...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All of that part of the timeline changed, both Davey's death and Brian's suicide attempt. The point was more that Brian being at the point of trying suicide touched deeper than the Davey being dead.

[Masked Monkey]

Going on a tangent a bit... if Brian had successfully killed himself there, would it be justified (if justified is the right word)?  Since Dan was going to reset that timeline anyways, he could have killed Brian off there and then...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All of that part of the timeline changed, both Davey's death and Brian's suicide attempt. The point was more that Brian being at the point of trying suicide touched deeper than the Davey being dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Brian had successfully killed himself in TL2a, then Sean never would have timetraveled, thus preventing Davey's death. If Brian had killed himself, Dan could not have reset the timeline because Sean's time travel set the whole thing up.

[NaperVic]

I'm just sick and tired of people baggin' on Brian that I get frustrated  . 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey, I like Brian too and want him and Davey to be together forever. My 'fear' is that with Brian's current reaction to Davey in the DOR timeline, that they might not have the chance to build the love that they did in the DO timeline. You're absolutely right that Davey has to earn Brian's love. I just hope that Brian gives Davey a chance and that DAVEY doesn't give up.

 

Take Care,

 

Vic

[Masked Monkey]

I just hope that Brian gives Davey a chance and that DAVEY doesn't give up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't known Davey to give up on anything, and Brian doesn't think in terms of chances (ie 1st, 2nd, 3rd ...), he thinks more in terms of truth/honesty and personal integrity. While Davey has DUTY, Brian has LOYALTY and the memory of the proverbial elephant.

 

Ultimately, I'm jealous of Davey, Brian is a perfect fit to him, and Davey knows it -- he wouldn't be near as good a fit to me, I have too much weakness in my personality (as do most real human beings). The question of whether or not they are "destined" to be together is only an issue of how evil Dan is. There is no question that they are made for each other and belong together, the only question is if Dan lets them be together. Which, I guess, may depend on if Dan tries to punish me because someone got bit by a snake (like I believe Dan would change a storyline just to punish me for the actions of my "pet" ).

[lurker]

I just hope that Brian gives Davey a chance and that DAVEY doesn't give up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't known Davey to give up on anything, and Brian doesn't think in terms of chances (ie 1st, 2nd, 3rd ...), he thinks more in terms of truth/honesty and personal integrity. While Davey has DUTY, Brian has LOYALTY and the memory of the proverbial elephant.

 

Ultimately, I'm jealous of Davey, Brian is a perfect fit to him, and Davey knows it -- he wouldn't be near as good a fit to me, I have too much weakness in my personality (as do most real human beings). The question of whether or not they are "destined" to be together is only an issue of how evil Dan is. There is no question that they are made for each other and belong together, the only question is if Dan lets them be together. Which, I guess, may depend on if Dan tries to punish me because someone got bit by a snake (like I believe Dan would change a storyline just to punish me for the actions of my "pet" ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Davey and Brian are 'made for each other and belong together' in a strictly literal sense. Dan created these people, and then did his best to show that they are a good fit for one another the first time around. If you believe that they are 'made for each other and belong together,' then it's a sign that you bought in to the Davey/Brian soulmates aspect of DO.

 

To the extent there is destiny, though, you are speaking of the all-powerful God that is creating these characters and then crafting what happesn to them...in other words, Dan. They are only 'destined' to be together if Dan believes that to be so. It is not really a question of evil or good. Evil would be creating people who are 'meant to be together' and then keeping them apart so they suffer. But then how was it ever their destiny if it can't happen? If you think Dan is trying to be 'good' or 'evil' in how he crafts his story or 'manipulates' his characters, then you may have lost the suspension of disbelief necessary to make the story work on its own.

 

Personally, I don't believe that in THIS world any one person is destined to be with any specific other person. While there may be a few people who are good fits, there is no such thing as 'made for each other' or 'belong together.' Who we wind up with is subject to a few coincidences in events and some choices that we make.

 

I have not seen any evidence that Dan as Author has created a world where people are 'meant for each other' and it is 'their destiny' to be together. I'm glad, because it makes it more interesting to see that people's choice have consequences and that we all subject to some degree of randomness that is not in our control. That is true for Davey, that is true for Brian. It's not good nor evil. It just is.

[Masked Monkey]

Without directly quoting, I am not so psychotic as to not be able to separate reality from fiction, in fact, quite the contrary. I do however have the ability to place myself (mentally) within a story and dissect the character personalities (just wish I could do it in life) if I put enough energy into it.

 

Destiny is a literary force that, in and of itself, is painfully neutral (neither good nor evil). A destiny that results in a net increase in evil can often be accomplished by steps that are "good". Just as in the case of Star Wars, a destiny that is ultimatly "good" is accomplished by the protagonist's descent into the very definition of evil. That Anakin is "destined" to become Lord Vader is not evil, it might make Lucas evil. Had Lucas not redeemed Anakin in Return of the Jedi, he would have been evil. Note that Anakin fullfiled his true destiny -- to restore balance to the force. Ultimately, Anakin's downfall is his salvation -- love. The hexology of Anakin Skywalker's life, as created and presented, is a strong statement about love, duty, choice and destiny -- as are most (Phone Call, please leave the room for the remainder of the discussion ) of Dan's stories (okay Phone Call, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, it is true of you too).

 

Since Dan has given us no Oracle in his story, and has not begun to write any "prequels," he is not fixed to any destiny or facts, although many of the decisions have been made already because Dan is several chapters ahead of the published works, and (I assume) has a map of the story arc he wants to tell. If Dan chooses a future for Brian and Davey that does not ultimately (when the whole story ends) have them together, he is evil by choice. Dan has stated that Brandon was his original choice for Davey, but Brian kept showing up and asserting himself as a character. My experience of Dan is that his writing is first and foremost honest to his characters. His energy goes into creating who the characters are, then how they respond to the stuff that life throws at them comes naturally. Davey NEVER would have failed to detonate a nuclear weapon because he was afraid of how History might judge him, because it was his DUTY -- even if he had to physically push the button himself. He NEVER would have failed to follow the Chinese time traveler because of DUTY. Had Dan chosen to avoid these actions he could have gotten to the same place, but the base character we had come to know would no longer define Davey. Lucas could have made Anakin a Jedi master that balances the force (would have made a boring story), instead he had Anakin choose AGAINST his base character and become a Sith in order to achieve the same ends by redemption (much better story).

 

Clearly, Dan's ability to weave a complex story is not as refined as Mr. Lucas', (no offense intended Dan), but Lucas had 30 years to tweak it correctly, we only give Dan a few weeks. The result is not a loss of depth, feeling, plot, or storyline. What is lost is the ability to have your characters stray from themselves and recover completely. With DO, Dan can play the "what if" game, but if he changes the basic make-up of his characters it won't seem real in my opinion.

 

As of late I have avoided saying that Davey and Brian are destined to be together, only that they

[lurker]

Without directly quoting, I am not so psychotic as to not be able to separate reality from fiction, in fact, quite the contrary.  I do however have the ability to place myself (mentally) within a story and dissect the character personalities (just wish I could do it in life) if I put enough energy into it.

 

Destiny is a literary force that, in and of itself, is painfully neutral (neither good nor evil).  A destiny that results in a net increase in evil can often be accomplished by steps that are "good".  Just as in the case of Star Wars, a destiny that is ultimatly "good" is accomplished by the protagonist's descent into the very definition of evil.  That Anakin is "destined" to become Lord Vader is not evil, it might make Lucas evil. 

 

Had Lucas not redeemed Anakin in Return of the Jedi, he would have been evil.  Note that Anakin fullfiled his true destiny -- to restore balance to the force.  Ultimately, Anakin's downfall is his salvation -- love.  The hexology of Anakin Skywalker's life, as created and presented, is a strong statement about love, duty, choice and destiny -- as are most (Phone Call, please leave the room for the remainder of the discussion  ) of Dan's stories (okay Phone Call, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, it is true of you too).

 

Since Dan has given us no Oracle in his story, and has not begun to write any "prequels," he is not fixed to any destiny or facts, although many of the decisions have been made already because Dan is several chapters ahead of the published works, and (I assume) has a map of the story arc he wants to tell.  If Dan chooses a future for Brian and Davey that does not ultimately (when the whole story ends) have them together, he is evil by choice.  Dan has stated that Brandon was his original choice for Davey, but Brian kept showing up and asserting himself as a character.  My experience of Dan is that his writing is first and foremost honest to his characters.  His energy goes into creating who the characters are, then how they respond to the stuff that life throws at them comes naturally.  Davey NEVER would have failed to detonate a nuclear weapon because he was afraid of how History might judge him, because it was his DUTY -- even if he had to physically push the button himself.  He NEVER would have failed to follow the Chinese time traveler because of DUTY.  Had Dan chosen to avoid these actions he could have gotten to the same place, but the base character we had come to know would no longer define Davey.  Lucas could have made Anakin a Jedi master that balances the force (would have made a boring story), instead he had Anakin choose AGAINST his base character and become a Sith in order to achieve the same ends by redemption (much better story).

 

Clearly, Dan's ability to weave a complex story is not as refined as Mr. Lucas', (no offense intended Dan), but Lucas had 30 years to tweak it correctly, we only give Dan a few weeks.  The result is not a loss of depth, feeling, plot, or storyline.  What is lost is the ability to have your characters stray from themselves and recover completely.  With DO, Dan can play the "what if" game, but if he changes the basic make-up of his characters it won't seem real in my opinion.

 

As of late I have avoided saying that Davey and Brian are destined to be together, only that they

[NaperVic]

Let me be clear - I'm not saying that Davey SHOULDN'T be with Brian anymore than I'm saying he SHOULD be. I'm just pointing out that the story COULD go either way and still maintain internal consistency, and that's part of what makes it such an intriguing read. I'm happy waiting to see how it plays out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll say it:

 

Davey SHOULD be with Brian!

 

 

Vic

[Masked Monkey]

Gawd I hate this, when posting on a story site there are 2 rules:

 

1. Never get into an argument with an editor

 

2. When breaking Rule 1. make sure that: your tongue isn't in your cheek; your head isn't up your ass; and your rattlesnakes aren't where you can see them laughing at you.

 

I too was thinking of Star Wars in the back of my mind in my post about destiny, good vs. evil.

 

I disagree with you on two main points. The first is how we are using the term 'evil' as applied to the creater of an artistic work. The second relates to the characterization specifically in DO & DOR.

 

1) On evil:

If Anakin Skywalker had not redeemed himself at the end of Return of the Jedi, it would not have made George Lucas 'evil' in any way. It might have made him a bad story-teller, though. I think we should separate the idea of the author/creater as 'evil' vs. 'good' from 'good at their craft' or 'bad at their craft.' Being inconsistent in characterization is not 'evil' unless it is done deliberately to make people mad in a meta-sense. Some might claim that the introduction of Jar Jar Binks is 'evil' because he sucked as a character and took away from the quality of the movies. For me, it was just bad story crafting (very bad!). 

 

Lucas has given interviews - long before the second trilogy came - that he always viewed the original Star Wars trilogy as being the rise, fall and redemption of Darth Vader. That was what made it more interesting than just a cliched repeat of the underdog beating big bad evil. Now, we can argue whether Lucas is honest about his intentions (personally, I'm a skeptic that he was certain about Luke and Leia being siblings in Ep IV, but this isn't the right forum for THAT argument).

In general, though, I accept that reading of those movies. Everything is about Vader rising from a lackey to great power in an Empire that has cultivated an anti-Jedi sentiment. His 'downfall' or his 'redemption' depending on how you view it is his love for his son. That is the arc.

 

I don't believe that there is true destiny in the Star Wars arc either. Belief in destiny has long been used as a literary tool that leads characters to make choices that may bring about that destiny. But saying that Anakin was always destined to bring 'balance to the force' is a Nostradamus prophecy at best. Yoda couldn't see that the Chancellor was evil when he was standing two feet in front of him in the early movie(s). And I don't really see how Anakin did bring balance to the force. He seemed to tip the scales entirely one way and then the other way. When Ep III ends, there is no balance. And when Ep VI ends, there is no balance.

 

In Ep VI, the Emperor had his own version of destiny when he tells Luke that it is HIS destiny to join him and Vader (he had forseen it, of course). Was he lying on purpose or not? He was wrong too, apparently.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the Star Wars movies are about false belief in destiny, love, duty, loyalty, etc. The only one for whom Anakin's tale was 'destined' was for Lucas, who was bound in Ep I-III by the characters he created in Ep IV-VI (although to be honest, the continuity police should arrest him for numerous offenses on this ground). 

 

2) On DO & DOR:

 

I flat out disagree with you that Brian and Davey 'belong together' in such a way that it would be poor story crafting if Dan didn't have them wind up together. (I've already explained why I view this as "bad story crafting" rather than 'evil' above.)

 

I don't purport to know what Dan is planning (nor do I want to know). We both agree that he is bound by the characterizations he has created already - or it would be bad story-telling.

 

To me, the story of DO is about Davey, not the Davey and Brian saga. Davey gets the opportunity to have a different/potentially better life, but it comes with the price of greater responsibility and duty. Part of that better life includes a relationship with Brian, who is a very nice compliment to him. Part of the duty means that he has to leave Brian.

 

I don't think Dan has to introduce a new character flaw or employ a mischaracterization for Davey and Brian to not wind up together. The story makes it clear that minor changes in events - due to different choices and some degree in randomness - can alter outcomes significantly. Add on top of this the fact that neither Davey nor Brian is the exact same person he was in DO when they got together, and as far as I'm concerned, if Dan just treated DOR like a recipe where you 'add Davey,' 'add Brian,' and stir to produce a loving, happy relationship, THAT would be bad story-telling.

 

The fact that lots of readers may be upset if they don't get a happy ending is a bad reason to force one on a story. The literary world is full of epic romances where lovers do not get to be together.

 

Let me be clear - I'm not saying that Davey SHOULDN'T be with Brian anymore than I'm saying he SHOULD be. I'm just pointing out that the story COULD go either way and still maintain internal consistency, and that's part of what makes it such an intriguing read. I'm happy waiting to see how it plays out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In general I have to agree with you, I basically always did, but hey, I get carried away sometimes (and I really like Brian).

 

When I refer to the author as "evil" I am NOT referring to writing skill or craft, I am referring to the personal emotional response that a particular choice for a character may lead. Yes, it's the "happy ending" thing. Also, I think we agree that not being consistent with your characters is bad story-telling.

 

Regarding the balancing of the force:

As I recall (and I could be wrong) good/evil was not really in the lexicon of the movies. When the dark side was referred to, it was alway some variation of "twisted." The "balance" is not that of a scale with both sides equal and static, but more like a martial art or a dance where there is dynamic balance and centeredness of motion/spirit. The essence of being "twisted" as it was used in the movies is as a direct opposite to being balanced. Thus, the Sith are not "evil" but fail to achieve harmonious balance with the force. It is not their relation to "humanity" that separates them, it is their relation to the true nature of the force. One could be just as "twisted" on the side of good. A Jedi who refused to defend the weak and innocent because they didn't want to fight is just as "twisted." By destroying the Sith, Anakin restored that dynamic balance to the force. (nit pick -- Luke was not to join the Emperor and Vader, he was supposed to "strike down" Vader and take his place at the Emperor's side)

 

In re-thinking what I wrote, I didn't want to come across as saying that Dan couldn't do (writing skill wise) whatever he decides with his characters and maintain a consistent story. I meant to say that it would take quite a bit for Davey to give up on winning Brian in this timeline, the only thing that could is :heavy sigh: DUTY. many things can get in his way, but he would only gove it up permanently because it was his duty. I can't see Davey ever as being happy without Brian, and yea, it would be an "unhappy" ending if all Davey was left with was DUTY to a country that (currentlY) despises him (even if they don't know it). Brian is extremely malliable once his heart is won. We have only seen one example of winning his heart. In the original timeline, his heart was not won (except, maybe, by his kid, only his loyalty was engaged. Yes, I could see lots of ways that make it so Davey never wins Brian's heart this time, but I fear that no one other than Davey can win it.

 

Ah, well, my sails are slumping, and I'm feeling kinda down. Gotta think of something else to do with may snakes to pick me up again. Oh, and don't ask why I picked rattlesnakes, they just kinda popped in my head and stuck. I think the whole image of poking them to piss them off while being far enough away that they can't hurt you fits me to a tee .

[lurker]

No quoting for me, because you've laid down your arms...watch out for the bears who might be picking them up (something about the 2d amendment, I hear).

 

My one residual squabble (minor) is your suggestion of a jedi being 'twisted' with good. I don't really know what that even means. Your example of a jedi refusing to defend the weak doesn't strike me as 'good.' This is an ends-means debate. A Jedi who employs 'improper' means is not on the correct side of the force, even if the ends are proper.

 

That said, I think we're trying to create an explanation where there is none. What is portrayed as appropriate behavior for the Jedi in the movies is not necessarily morally good. As big of a geek as I am, I was never THAT much of a geek to believe that there really is an internal, consistent religiousity to the 'force.'

 

On the one hand, the force is about understanding nature and that everything has its own flow, so you shouldn't force your will on anything. But then, it's about manipulating that flow when you need to do stuff, like blow up a Death Star, lift a plane out of a swamp or convince some weak-minded people to do something they don't want to do. If you aren't driven by anger, hurt or some other 'negative' emotion, then all those things are fine. It's never explained at all why SOME means are proper for a jedi to justify the ends, but OTHERS are twisted.

 

And while I'm dumping on the religion of the force, I want to add that while I was ok with the notion that some families were more 'in tune' with the force, I balked at the presentation of a blood test identifying jedi potential. I believe my response was 'f**king Midichlorians!'

 

Topic...Right...DOR...good story, eh?

 

BTW, to quote our hero from a different trilogy, I HATE snakes!

[Bocian]

I hadn't checked the board for a couple of days and I get back to find this amazing conversation going on. After reading each post I felt I had something to say and, in the next post, I usually found someone had said it for me. Also, I think that many of the disagreements are more semantic than real. Sometimes posters are saying the same thing, just arguing against slightly difference denotations or connotations of words and in the process making some really insightful statements. Anyway, when you view writing through the eyes of current composition theory (such as the truth finding rather truth telling nature of writing), reading such a sustained conversation on a work gets exciting.

 

Lurker, I just posted a comment at the blog on my own interaction with Star Wars and after reading your recent posts, I could see more in the story than I had before. Now I feel like going back and recanting a few sentences, but I'll let it stand.

 

This conversation, particularly Snow Dog's comments, has made me start wondering about which characters different readers identify with and how that may change their view of this story. A little self-examination on this point might illuminate why some of us (and yes, "us" includes me) are so fervently hoping for a Brian and Davey relationship and others are more open to Dan taking the characters in other directions.

 

It might make for a couple interesting polls:

 

1. When you read, with whom do you identify the most?

 

2. Which character would you rather date?

 

Of course the obvious answer to both is "Davey" because we are privy to more of his thoughts and he is the hero, but for me at least these questions aren't that easy. There are parts of myself I see in different characters and qualities I look for in a partner spread between them as well. (For the record, as of this moment--and it could change at any time--I empathize most strongly with Sean and Brandon and would love to meet a Brian of my own.)

Edited May 20, 2005 by Bocian

[Masked Monkey]

I hadn't checked the board for a couple of days and I get back to find this amazing conversation going on. After reading each post I felt I had something to say and, in the next post, I usually found someone had said it for me. Also, I think that many of the disagreements are more semantic than real. Sometimes posters are saying the same thing, just arguing against slightly difference denotations or connotations of words and in the process making some really insightful statements. Anyway, when you view writing through the eyes of current composition theory (such as the truth finding rather truth telling nature of writing), reading such a sustained conversation on a work gets exciting.

 

Lurker, I just posted a comment at the blog on my own interaction with Star Wars and after reading your recent posts, I could see more in the story than I had before. Now I feel like going back and recanting a few sentences, but I'll let it stand.

 

This conversation, particularly Snow Dog's comments, has made me start wondering about which characters different readers identify with and how that may change their view of this story.  A little self-examination on this point might illuminate why some of us (and yes, "us" includes me) are so fervently hoping for a Brian and Davey relationship and others are more open to Dan taking the characters in other directions.

 

It might make for a couple interesting polls:

 

1. When you read, with whom do you identify the most?

 

2. Which character would you rather date?

 

Of course the obvious answer to both is "Davey" because we are privy to more of his thoughts and he is the hero, but for me at least these questions aren't that easy. There are parts of myself I see in different characters and qualities I look for in a partner spread between them as well. (For the record, as of this moment--and it could change at any time--I empathize most strongly with Sean and Brandon and would love to meet a Brian of my own.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, you may find that a lot of that was just me on a 2 day rant because Dan told me I couldn't do something (oh and someone comparing Brian to Davey's mom .. where's my snake ..)

 

My first crush 6th grade through 11th grade was on a "Davey" type right down to going to Annapolis. Never told him though, never told anyone. Found out a number of years ago that he left the Navy and moved in with his boyfriend. Never had a clue. Don't know what he is up to, have his phone number, haven't had the guts to call, but since I have nothing to offer him, it wouldn't be fair to call.

[lurker]

Also getting specific to this story, When Dan went from DO to DOR he was granted a clean slat. What I mean by this is, if you recall, any change in a timeline has a ripple affect. This affect creates changes that are unpredictable across the whole story. As an example let me point out what Sean told Davy about Brian and that crew, when they first met in the hospital.

(Chapter 19)

 

[Trebs]

Just finished reading Ch 21 - go read it if you haven't already, but I don't think I'll be doing any spoilers...

 

Just sitting here, with my heart pounding... for the whole last half (or more) - it was like I was holding my breath.

 

One element I wasn't too comfortable with - but it was so true to the story... Also - kept waiting for a conversation that ~didn't~ happen...

 

As usual, a lot to think over - and then of course, a 2nd reading to further cause more thoughts.

 

Lol - and, though it shouldn't need to be said - NOW I WANT CHAPTER 22!!!

 

hehe

 

Guess I'll just have to wait until next Friday - at least (for that and other reasons) it will be a big day to look forward to and long for...

[Bocian]

All Danimals and other Danizens of Danopolis praise Dan this evening. At least this Kirkorian is happy. By the way, anyone who is reading this and has not read chapter 21 yadda yadda yadda, it's you're own damn fault. Also, it's late so this post may be heavy on the litotes, and that's my own damn fault (and yes, I use words like litotes in daily conversation, especially when I'm tired; I'm a victim of a Humanities education so bear with me).

 

First off, let's get the unpleasant bit out of the way; I have two complaints.

 

1. Brian says his dad got shot today, and yes, we know that from previous chapters, but it doesn't seem like the parents act or talk as if they have just come out of a traumatic experience in which they were seriously injured.

 

2. The editing left something to be desired. I try very hard not to be prescriptivist regarding native speaker's use of their own language, but there were a couple things I found distracting. However, the worst offense was the inclusion of the line, “[this wasn’t covered in any of the chapters that I could find].” It does occur to me though that Anthony Trollope's The Way We Live Now was originally a serial and then improved when edited for publication later in book form. I'm sure that when DO and DOR get edited from their serial form for publication (I'd buy it), these little things will all be caught.

 

Speaking of British Realism, this chapter reminded me of one of those incredibly restrained films in which all the characters sit around being proper and polite while emotional subtexts rage out of view. (Hmm. Maybe I'm thinking of British Modernism now. Which was Forrester?) One wonders who will break first. Will Davey hug Brian? Will the parents' nervous laughter give way to tears because of the uncertainty of their situation? Will Brandon and Trevor get it on while fantasizing about Ridgeway? (OK, that one was a joke . . . mostly . . . admit it though, Dan's descriptions of Ridgeway leave us fantasizing, don't they?) If I had been a fly on that wall, I would have used my superfly strength to throw Davey and Brian singlets and let them fight it out. But Dan, the almighty and wise god of the Do Over universe, was restrained. I am not being sarcastic when I say, “Thank you.”

 

When I got to the scene in the elevator, I wanted to jump up and down and sing (but a friend was asleep on my couch two meters away and I didn't want to wake her so I mustered up my own restraint). Honestly, I didn't expect them to reach this level of friendship (or at least cordiality) for a couple more chapters, but then I remembered how quickly Brian had gone from jerk to BFF in the previous timeline and realized this is exactly as it should be. I think Novelty will be hard pressed to find support for his “Dan is evil” thesis from this chapter.

 

This may just be me, but I derived an irrational amount of joy from the use of actual Russian words [rather than just brackets. I can understand why Dan does this though, even my Russian is grammatically correct this way and you all understand it]. One question flitted through my mind: is Tyatya's maiden name meant to be derived from the same Slavic root as здоровье, meaning healthy? My former boss in Poland always used an adjective coming from that root euphemistically to describe sexy women, so I like what this name says about Tyatya. I was so proud of her when she “softly” slapped Trevor. If you go to Webshots.com and search for words like queer or gay, you can see quickly that they are rarely applied by the masses accurately or with respect. More young people need a mother like Tyatya to beat some sensitivity into them.

 

The conversation I was expecting, and am still waiting for, was the sexuality talk between Davey, Brandon, and Trevor. I didn't expect Davey to spill the beans to Brian yet, but Brandon and Trevor need to let the cat out of the bag before they channel their repression into further homophobic acts. Sean has already felt the danger of their closet.

 

Ah, Sean. This chapter leaves him an enigma. Perhaps he'll be the precipitant of that sexuality talk. I'm sure the other three boys will be curious about his inclusion in their clique. I'm very interested to see how well he can keep his Otherness a secret. Considering Davey's inability to keep a lid on things despite his considerable training, I'm guessing Sean will have a hard time.

 

I have so many questions playing tag in my head right now, I want answers, but I know I'll just have to wait until the next installment next Friday. Unfortunately, I'll be at a family reunion in Middle-Of-Nowhere, Oklahoma (God, I hope there isn't actually a town named that) and without internet access. So I'll have to wait longer. Read with sarcasm: Dan, don't you see you're driving a wedge between me and my own family!

[Masked Monkey]

I'm sure that Dan is flattered by being compared to George Lucas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can't speak for Lurker, but I was fully aware of stroking Dan's um .. ego.

[Trebs]

Great post Snow Dog... and since I'm now not the first one, I can give details on my first two big impressions:

 

The part I was uneasy about? Without any foreplay (ie, just good conversation with Brian), almost immediately manipulating Brian by taking him to the gun range. But considering how his hormones kept his mantra of "Brian is coming" going over and over, story-wise it totally fits in. It's what I'd expect of Davey who wants to take any legitimate shortcut possible to re-establish his relationship with Brian. Doesn't mean I like it (ie Davey character flaw), but writing-wise, I think it totally fit.

 

And the conversation I kept expecting - after reading:

Brandon reached out and squeezed Brian