Coming out as Bisexual

[GaryK]

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment please to give you something to think about.

 

If everyone who were bisexual would suddenly announce their orientation/preference to the world I could see only one real effect. It would make the people who hate GLBT people even more paranoid, hateful, spiteful, vengeful, and thus dangerous to us.

[Dion]

I have to agree with Gary. I can't see any good coming from a mass movement toward 'coming out'. All I foresee is the 'haters' becoming more secretive and threatening.

 

Not to be cynical or to insult anyone but we only know that the ones who are happy with it and accept it are...happy with it and accept it. I assume that we wouldn't know about the ones who aren't happy with it and don't accept it.

Don't be so sure...

 

I was going to try the 'Devil's Advocate' thing, but Gary beat me to it - and did a much better job, too!

[AFriendlyFace]

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment please to give you something to think about.

 

If everyone who were bisexual would suddenly announce their orientation/preference to the world I could see only one real effect. It would make the people who hate GLBT people even more paranoid, hateful, spiteful, vengeful, and thus dangerous to us.

I don't think it would. At least not overall for most people. There would be initial shock, but I think eventually if people were confronted with this reality on a daily basis to such a big extent most would gradually get used to it and grow more tolerant of it. Even if people never truly changed their feelings about it I think they would get desensitized to it and at least fixate on it less. I also think the sheer number of people (and remember these people would undoubtedly include some of their friends, family members, co-workers, church members, neighbours, doctors, etc) would make the homophobes/biphobes less likely to say or do anything much about it.

 

Anyway, if we're supposing such unlikely scenarios let's suppose that all the gays and lesbians joined their bisexual brethren in proclaiming their orientation to the world, then there'd be even more people for the homophobes/biphobes to contend with

 

I have to agree with Gary. I can't see any good coming from a mass movement toward 'coming out'. All I foresee is the 'haters' becoming more secretive and threatening.

The evidence would be to the contrary. Societies with higher numbers of out people tend to have higher levels of acceptance. Looking at the social history of the US it's also apparent that the more people have come out the better and easier things have gotten. And almost all studies and theories point toward greater exposure and personal experience as the number one factor in the reduction of prejudice (all prejudice, but specifically homophobia).

 

I was rather assuming that everyone here was taking this point for granted. If you disagree with this basic point then I would certainly concede that there looks like very little point in coming out. However apart from saying that social theories, history, and simple intuition point to the likely benefits of exposure and prevalence in reducing prejudice there isn't much more I could say and no reason for me to continue discussing the virtues of coming out.

 

I'll readily admit that the thread, and all my arguments, hinged on the fact that we were all in agreement that greater exposure, visibility, and open integration with society would reduce prejudice.

Edited May 19, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[Dion]

Whoa, Kevin! Don't back down now!

 

I was rather assuming that everyone here was taking this point for granted. If you disagree with this basic point then I would certainly concede that there looks like very little point in coming out. However apart from saying that social theories, history, and simple intuition point to the likely benefits of exposure and prevalence in reducing prejudice there isn't much more I could say and no reason for me to continue discussing the virtues of coming out.

 

I'll readily admit that the thread, and all my arguments, hinged on the fact that we were all in agreement that greater exposure, visibility, and open integration with society would reduce prejudice.

I agree that greater visibility would be integral to promoting acceptance. I just don't think that the result would be a favorable one. At best there would probably be a grudging acceptance of our existence, not open arms.

 

Besides - I thought the original topic of this thread was whether or not there was any point in bisexuals coming out?

[AFriendlyFace]

Besides - I thought the original topic of this thread was whether or not there was any point in bisexuals coming out?

Exactly, but to me the point of bisexuals (or anyone really) coming out would be to spread tolerance and reduce prejudice through an increase in visibility and public integration. I still believe this, but I'll concede the 'argument' that coming out is a good thing to do socially if the people to whom I'm making this point don't believe that tolerance and reduced prejudice would result through an increase in the number of 'out' bisexuals (or gays, lesbians, and transgenders).

 

 

Of course that's from a social perspective, which has been my focus up until now, of course there are personal reasons for a bisexual to come out and I do believe that the majority of people, if circumstances are favourable, end up being happier if they can be out, so that's certainly a good reason. However by its nature this is a more personal thing and while I'm comfortable and confident saying that society and the GLBT cause benefit from an individual's coming out, I can't really say the same about a specific individual from a personal standpoint, because I do firmly believe that the individual themselves will know far better than I whether or not they themselves will benefit from coming out.

 

It is my belief that most people will psychologically and emotionally benefit from coming out, and I further believe that being out is naturally more inclined to lead to greater support and affirmation for (most) any romantic relationship in which the person is engaged. Occasionally it may make a relationship harder, however. For example if the people are somehow tied to unsupportive parents who try to stop the relationship once they find out, or if society as a whole otherwise conspires to wreck the couple's relationship. In general though I think relationships are more easily conducted outside of the closet.

 

Specifically regarding bisexuals coming out, I'll say that my original premise that bisexuals face a unique set of social obstacles is also closely tied to the fact that I believe that these social obstacles will begin to be knocked down - both for the specific bisexual in question and for bisexuals as a whole - when the individual comes out, but again I was premising this belief on the concept that it's easier to discriminate against a vague, faceless enemy, "bisexuals" than it is to discriminate against "Uncle Tom" or your co-worker Sue, etc.

 

I would actually agree with your original statement, Dion, that coming out as a bisexual would boil down to essentially the same factors as coming out as gay or lesbian person if one were to discount these unique social circumstances bisexuals face and the possible boon coming out could have on them. There would still be some big differences, especially regarding interaction with other GLBT people, but removing the social aspect would equate it more to standard homosexuality/homophobia issues.

 

I think at this point it might be worth mentioning two basic kinds of discrimination (there are certainly a lot more but I want to contrast these two): discrimination received in a somewhat 'anonymous', indirect manner versus discrimination received from a personal acquaintance or from someone in a direct manner.

 

"Anonymous", indirect discrimination may indeed be slightly more likely to rise for a specific individual after he/she comes out. Obviously it's easier to shout vulgar comments at someone walking down the road who is obviously and openly GLBT than it is to pick out a closeted individual and do the same.

 

However, I think that in polite society at least personal discrimination is much less likely to occur after someone has come out. As a society it isn't socially acceptable to be rude and vulgar to people, even people you don't like, directly to their face, especially if this is taking place in a public setting or in any kind of 'official' or 'businesslike' setting.

 

I expect to be able to walk into the grocery store, even in a 'hick town', wearing a big rainbow pride shirt, and tight jeans and not have the cashier waiting on me make any remarks about gay people to my face (it might happen I suppose, but I think it's relatively unlikely, first of all he/she could probably be fired, second most people just aren't that directly confrontational in such a setting).

 

Similarly if I work with homophobic, redneck people as long as some decorum of polite social interaction remains (and it usually does) I expect to hear less gay slurs than if I were still in the closet. Let's just assume they don't like gay people either (though again I think the fact that they now know and work with one will slightly help in this matter). If I'm in the closet and they truly don't know or suspect, then it's probably very likely that they'll make gay slurs in front me simply because that's how they think, act, and interact with each other. If they do suspect but I'm not out then they may push the envelop and do it in front of me on purpose, perhaps to bait me into outing myself or just to piss me off, in any case they may or may not increase or curb their natural use of gay slurs. Now, finally if I'm openly out, and again if this is at least a semi-polite, standard social environment I think they're much less likely to purposely say something in front of me, or to me, because that just isn't acceptable social behaviour and most people aren't that directly confrontational especially with someone they're going to have to continue interacting with on a daily basis in a professional manner.

 

 

My own experiences bear this out. I heard a lot more gay slurs before I came out because people either didn't know or suspect, or figured they could 'get away with it' because I wasn't officially out. I've pretty much been completely out for the past two + years now (I don't go around saying "I'm gay", but I make no effort to censor my conversation, dress, or behaviour and I freely associate with gay people) and I haven't had a single person I personally knew say anything to me. I've heard much less anti-gay talk from random people in crowds (probably because they realized there's a 'queer' standing right there I'm assuming), and I've only had one experience of strangers saying anything offensive. Once I walking down the street with a friend and a car full of guys shouted "fags" at us, but that's once in two years, and that was hardly a big deal they'd already driven away before I even realized what was going on, and I was just pissed that I didn't get a chance to tell them off.

 

It's honestly been alot easier and less hostile living as an openly gay person than a closeted person. No paranoia, or fear of being 'discovered', and people at least attempting to remain socially polite.

 

Now I do admit that this also coincides with the time I moved to a very large city. I guess part of it might also be the way I carry myself. I think my personality and demeanor tends to convey that I am both friendly, pleasant and non-hostile, but also confident and disinclined to shrink into the background or be pushed around. So I think no one has any particular reason to be rude to me, or any particular reason to think that I'll let them get away with it unchallenged. I will also admit that anecdotally my shy, less assertive friends report more problems as do my very confrontational friends. In general I'm not looking for a fight, but I will stand up for myself.

 

Anyway, I think those are good personal reasons to come out, either as gay or bisexual, but I tend to think the social ones, while less important to a person personally, are easier to discuss in a more generalized way.

 

Take care all and have a great day,

Kevin

[Bandage]

LOL, YES! Thank you!

 

HAHA, almost every one of them was misunderstanding what I was saying!

 

Obviously then it's very likely ineffective communication on my part, and probably also related to the fact that I took several text pages to say what you essentially said for me in one paragraph. As I've said before, brevity isn't really one of my virtues.

 

Well, a few of my best friends always write HUGE mails and such, so I guess I'm kinda used to it

I am a bit jealous though, I can't be as lyric as them/you...

 

 

I'm so sorry things are rough for you right now. I'm really really proud of you for confronting things as much as you have already! I'm also grateful that you did realize that I wasn't trying to pressure you - or anyone else - to do more before you were ready.

 

It seems to me like you're doing an excellent job with your journey and I think you'll definitely reach the point where you can be very comfortable with yourself and your sexuality (I'm definitely getting that indication from you!). I think at some point, hopefully in the not too distant future, but regardless at some point down the line, you'll find that your sexuality is a wonderful, positive, and affirming thing for you. I really think you're going to be just fine, dude

 

Well, I think I need to come out, somewhat in the near future, to become totally accepting of myself, so I'm trying to gather up enough courage to come out lol

And thanks for the support

 

And now back on topic:

 

Well, I think that bi people should come out as well, if they are of course accepting of it themselves, and in a good environment to do so, with the same reason gay and lesbian people should come out: Society may become more tolerant, if not accepting of bi/gay/lesbian people.

 

And I think it's like Kevin says:

It's honestly been alot easier and less hostile living as an openly gay person than a closeted person. No paranoia, or fear of being 'discovered', and people at least attempting to remain socially polite.

Well, I certainly hope it will be the same for me

 

Cheers

Edited May 19, 2008 by Zilar

[old bob]

Not to be cynical or to insult anyone but we only know that the ones who are happy with it and accept it (the fact to be bi) are...happy with it and accept it. I assume that we wouldn't know about the ones who aren't happy with it and don't accept it.

I agree with you. But just the fact that some of us are happy is an important point for me (No need to know how many they are or not ! Or should we organise a pool ? )

I agree. For me complete monogamy, for both parties, is a requirement in a romantic relationship. It's just how I prefer to conduct my own. However, I would never presume to tell other people what's best for their relationship in this matter. If they and their spouse/partner/S.O. have an open relationship, or any kind of 'arrangement', then more power to them and I'm completely behind them.

Thanks for your agreement. You are open minded and I appreciate it. I could imagine that, with the years passing, you could make some bad experiences and modify your feelings about that point. As the proverbe says "Never say never"!

I object to infidelity and cheating. However, if the people in the relationship are okay with sex with others and no one is lying or deceiving or otherwise breaking the terms of their unique relationship, then I certainly don't care and don't think it's any of my business.

Very "diplomatic" attitude ! You are a clever negotiator. But it seems to me that your are not entirely sincere with your "declared" opinion. People as me, with an "open" behaviour, get some contemptuous answers when they try to explain their attitude. Isn't it ? I'm what I am, and I'm too old to change

Old bob

[Bandage]

Thanks for your agreement. You are open minded and I appreciate it. I could imagine that, with the years passing, you could make some bad experiences and modify your feelings about that point. As the proverbe says "Never say never"!

 

Very "diplomatic" attitude ! You are a clever negotiator. But it seems to me that your are not entirely sincere with your "declared" opinion. People as me, with an "open" behaviour, get some contemptuous answers when they try to explain their attitude. Isn't it ? I'm what I am, and I'm too old to change

Old bob

 

Personally, I would prefer a monogamous relationship, because I'm a very loyal person... I don't really like open relationships, because I do feel that at some point, the other person may not feel the same about it anymore... I can't really say I'd be really supportive if one of my friends had such a relationship, but I wouldn't show my disapproval (much). But that can be a cultural dogma here?

 

O well, if you and your significant other are both comfortable with the way your relationship is, who am I to disapprove of it?

[AFriendlyFace]

Well, I think I need to come out, somewhat in the near future, to become totally accepting of myself, so I'm trying to gather up enough courage to come out lol

That's wonderful! Good luck!

 

Well, I certainly hope it will be the same for me

I'm sure it will be.

 

Very "diplomatic" attitude ! You are a clever negotiator. But it seems to me that your are not entirely sincere with your "declared" opinion. People as me, with an "open" behaviour, get some contemptuous answers when they try to explain their attitude. Isn't it ? I'm what I am, and I'm too old to change

Hmm, that's complicated, and the issue of open relationships is easily one I could devote an entire thread to. LOL, maybe I will start such a thread at some point too, but for now I'll try to be brief with my thoughts:

 

-I truly don't think it is 'human nature' to be monogamous. But I think many of the things people do on a regular basis aren't their natural 'instinct', but never the less still meritorious and very possible. So that fact that it might be instinctual neither doesn't really play against the concept for me.

 

-I have a very strong preference for monogamy in my relationships. As you said, I suppose one can never say never, but I can firmly say that I don't ever intend at this point to enter into an open relationship.

 

-However, I'm also very open-minded about sexual matters, and I don't have a problem with casual sex in general. Thus, I can well imagine that it's very possible that a couple could enter into a serious relationship that they cared about, but be okay with and want to continue casual sex with others. This concept does not blow my mind, but I have a very strong gut reaction of "I don't want that for myself".

 

-I definitely think sex and romantic love have the most potential to be REALLY good, intense experiences when they are combined. However, I'm also a firm believer in sex not equaling love; the two are separate (at least to me). They're really good when combined, but they can also both be very good without the other.

 

-I tend to be more open-minded and liberal about such things than the majority of my friends and I frequently and sincerely speak up in support of couples who both want an open relationship. (for that reason I do believe myself to be sincere in my above expressed opinion).

 

-I do however think that in most cases an open relationship has more potential for jealousy and complications within the primary relationship. I also think about the worst thing that can happen is when one partner really wants such an arrangement and the other doesn't particularly want this but grudgingly consents. For that reason my very firm caveat for supporting open relationships is "If it's truly what both people want and it works for them". If it is then I assure you I really am 'on board'.

 

 

Well that was fairly brief for me

 

Take care all and have a great day!

-Kevin

Edited May 19, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[old bob]

Hmm, that's complicated, and the issue of open relationships is easily one I could devote an entire thread to. LOL, maybe I will start such a thread at some point too

I would be delighted ! and don't try to be brief in it .

I tend to be more open-minded and liberal about such things than the majority of my friends and I frequently and sincerely speak up in support of couples who both want an open relationship. (for that reason I do believe myself to be sincere in my above expressed opinion).

As I said in another topic, we have 2 souls (among others ) in one body.Thinking rationally, I'm sure you are sincere in your expressed opinion. But when I read all your posts and try to build an image of your whole ego, I see that open relationships doesn't suit you .

I do however think that in most cases an open relationship has more potential for jealousy and complications within the primary relationship. I also think about the worst thing that can happen is when one partner really wants such an arrangement and the other doesn't particularly want this but grudgingly consents. For that reason my very firm caveat for supporting open relationships is "If it's truly what both people want and it works for them". If it is then I assure you I really am 'on board'.

I hear you ! . Your words : "if one partner really wants such an arrangement and the other doesn't particularly want this but grudgingly consents" are the key of our discussion and the word "grudgingly" the heart of the problem. In each relationship, if the partners don't build a team, and a strong one, and dont fully and sincerely agree with each other, no "open" relationship can work.

Well that was fairly brief for me

Dont restrain yourself . As I allready said before, you express yourself easily. That's a gift you have to exercise and that's also a pleasure for all readers of your posts. .

Take care, Kevin and go on in your natural way.

Old bob

[Daisy]

I don't think it would. At least not overall for most people. There would be initial shock, but I think eventually if people were confronted with this reality on a daily basis to such a big extent most would gradually get used to it and grow more tolerant of it. Even if people never truly changed their feelings about it I think they would get desensitized to it and at least fixate on it less. I also think the sheer number of people (and remember these people would undoubtedly include some of their friends, family members, co-workers, church members, neighbours, doctors, etc) would make the homophobes/biphobes less likely to say or do anything much about it.

 

Anyway, if we're supposing such unlikely scenarios let's suppose that all the gays and lesbians joined their bisexual brethren in proclaiming their orientation to the world, then there'd be even more people for the homophobes/biphobes to contend with

 

 

The evidence would be to the contrary. Societies with higher numbers of out people tend to have higher levels of acceptance. Looking at the social history of the US it's also apparent that the more people have come out the better and easier things have gotten. And almost all studies and theories point toward greater exposure and personal experience as the number one factor in the reduction of prejudice (all prejudice, but specifically homophobia).

 

 

Exactly, but to me the point of bisexuals (or anyone really) coming out would be to spread tolerance and reduce prejudice through an increase in visibility and public integration. I still believe this, but I'll concede the 'argument' that coming out is a good thing to do socially if the people to whom I'm making this point don't believe that tolerance and reduced prejudice would result through an increase in the number of 'out' bisexuals (or gays, lesbians, and transgenders).

 

 

Now, finally if I'm openly out, and again if this is at least a semi-polite, standard social environment I think they're much less likely to purposely say something in front of me, or to me, because that just isn't acceptable social behaviour and most people aren't that directly confrontational especially with someone they're going to have to continue interacting with on a daily basis in a professional manner.

 

 

My own experiences bear this out. I heard a lot more gay slurs before I came out because people either didn't know or suspect, or figured they could 'get away with it' because I wasn't officially out. I've pretty much been completely out for the past two + years now (I don't go around saying "I'm gay", but I make no effort to censor my conversation, dress, or behaviour and I freely associate with gay people) and I haven't had a single person I personally knew say anything to me. I've heard much less anti-gay talk from random people in crowds (probably because they realized there's a 'queer' standing right there I'm assuming), and I've only had one experience of strangers saying anything offensive. Once I walking down the street with a friend and a car full of guys shouted "fags" at us, but that's once in two years, and that was hardly a big deal they'd already driven away before I even realized what was going on, and I was just pissed that I didn't get a chance to tell them off.

 

It's honestly been alot easier and less hostile living as an openly gay person than a closeted person. No paranoia, or fear of being 'discovered', and people at least attempting to remain socially polite.

 

Now I do admit that this also coincides with the time I moved to a very large city. I guess part of it might also be the way I carry myself. I think my personality and demeanor tends to convey that I am both friendly, pleasant and non-hostile, but also confident and disinclined to shrink into the background or be pushed around. So I think no one has any particular reason to be rude to me, or any particular reason to think that I'll let them get away with it unchallenged. I will also admit that anecdotally my shy, less assertive friends report more problems as do my very confrontational friends. In general I'm not looking for a fight, but I will stand up for myself.

 

Hia, I agree with you on all your points. I really do believe that the more people who have come out in the uk, in the media, fictitious characters, and in real life, has been a major part in what has spread the higher levels of tolerance and acceptance we have, compared to the past. The more they see it the more they become accustomed to it, or the more its seen in a neutral or positive way (with of course the backing of the government) people are becoming more adjusted. It hasnt wiped out homophobia completly and people can still be unsure of gay people when they actually see them as a couple (although from my experience they keep their feelings/shock private), but the general attitude of the country is changing. I put a survey on a link somewhere about how these attitudes have changed in the last 20 years and its staggering -- in the 1980's (according to this study) 3/4's of the population believed homosexuality was wrong or mostly wrong, whereas last years study revealed less than a third believe its wrong. but just under a third said they believed 2 gay men would be good parents, but thats also almost in line with their opinions on other alternative family arrangements such as single parenting.

 

What you said about people being more inclined to be polite around out gay/bi people is correct in my experience too, my friends have experienced the same thing. People may gossip behind their backs, and use particular lang/jokes when they are in a general social group, but as soon as there is a gay person it doesn't really happen, unless its in friendly banter.

 

The other important thing about more people being out though, is that I think it has a positive affect on others still in the closet. If they see someone comfortable with themselves, or doing things they can't do in public, or even not recieving the horrendously bad reaction they think will occur if they leave the closet, then I believe that it has the possibility of making that person more confident, or accepting of themselves. This would have an affect on bisexual people, I think, because for the majority of society they don't understand bisexuality, and that can include the person who is experiencing it themselves, seeing someone else deal with something simular and be open about it can therefore be helpful I think. It doesn't have to be just people you meet either, one of my lesbian friends, what helped build up her courage to come out was watching the LWord - watching other lesbian people and wanting what they had. In fact, thats what this site is doing in a way itself.

 

Right back to painfull revision,

Celia

[Daisy]

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment please to give you something to think about.

 

If everyone who were bisexual would suddenly announce their orientation/preference to the world I could see only one real effect. It would make the people who hate GLBT people even more paranoid, hateful, spiteful, vengeful, and thus dangerous to us.

 

Actually am tempted to agree. if everyone were to suddenly announce then I think there would be a backlash, at least for awhile untill everyone adjusted and calmed down. It would be a shock, and people can react badly to shock, before their rational and/or calmer side takes over. but thats not whats happening usually, people are doing it in incremental shifts, and as far as I can tell from my experience the more this effect is rippling out and increasing the number likely to come out and those more accepting. Although of course it may have always been this way, but behind closed doors, or not so obviously accepting/out, and I can't say because I didn't live then.

 

Celia

[Bandage]

The other important thing about more people being out though, is that I think it has a positive affect on others still in the closet. If they see someone comfortable with themselves, or doing things they can't do in public, or even not recieving the horrendously bad reaction they think will occur if they leave the closet, then I believe that it has the possibility of making that person more confident, or accepting of themselves. This would have an affect on bisexual people, I think, because for the majority of society they don't understand bisexuality, and that can include the person who is experiencing it themselves, seeing someone else deal with something simular and be open about it can therefore be helpful I think. It doesn't have to be just people you meet either, one of my lesbian friends, what helped build up her courage to come out was watching the LWord - watching other lesbian people and wanting what they had. In fact, thats what this site is doing in a way itself.

 

Right back to painfull revision,

Celia

 

This is exactly how I feel about that;

 

A big in-the-closet-pusher for me was, when in high-school, a fellow student came out, publicly. Now, I must say, no one really liked the guy, from before, because of his personality, but let's say that kind of worsened when he came out... And that's not really a good thing to see while being in the closet yourself...

 

A female friend of mine recently got into a relationship with some guy, and to get her friends to know him and his friends to know her, she invited us to an evening of bowling. Now, he invited 2 guys, and both were gay. And seeing how my friends all reacted friendly towards those 2, really helped me to get a little confident about coming out...

 

So there you have some evidence (not clearly stated though, sorry for that ) that it really can help, and that the opposite is true as well...

 

Have a nice evening

[Daisy]

This is exactly how I feel about that;

 

A big in-the-closet-pusher for me was, when in high-school, a fellow student came out, publicly. Now, I must say, no one really liked the guy, from before, because of his personality, but let's say that kind of worsened when he came out... And that's not really a good thing to see while being in the closet yourself...

 

A female friend of mine recently got into a relationship with some guy, and to get her friends to know him and his friends to know her, she invited us to an evening of bowling. Now, he invited 2 guys, and both were gay. And seeing how my friends all reacted friendly towards those 2, really helped me to get a little confident about coming out...

 

So there you have some evidence (not clearly stated though, sorry for that ) that it really can help, and that the opposite is true as well...

 

Have a nice evening

 

 

no, you stated it clearly . It has been the thing that I have noticed as the most important thing in making people comfortable, and I have seen the affects within some of my friends. I am not 'out' myself, that really is more to do with I don't really know what the hell I want and so am quietly trying to figure it out, and get used to the idea, but the longer it takes and the more conclusive ideas I'm getting, the more I feel like I am possibily decieving people. But regardless, I try and make making people feel able to be comfortable one of my priorities in general - and do that if I can via various signals, but I can only show I am as openminded as I am to a certain level then its up to the person. The last few days I've gotten quite frustrated, even though I know I have no right to be, because a newish but good uni friend (so they don't know my home friends), who knows my views and attitudes, was accidentally revealed to me by a mutual friend to be gay and have a boyfriend in another city, it makes no difference to me whatsoever, but he is obviously not comfortable with me yet to tell me himself, and has deliberatly tried to decieve me with some of the things he has said. So now I'm stuck with having to pretend I don't know until he tells me (if he does), and its sad and upsetting that they won't just tell me, in fact slightly hurtfull - but I completley understand that its up to them and its not easy and I don't want to make them uncomfortable. but yeah thats been aggravating me the last 2 days.

 

but pleased that you've found your friends more accepting that you may have thought, its goodsigns.

Celia

[Benji]

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment please to give you something to think about.

 

If everyone who were bisexual would suddenly announce their orientation/preference to the world I could see only one real effect. It would make the people who hate GLBT people even more paranoid, hateful, spiteful, vengeful, and thus dangerous to us.

 

 

......I'm not sure I follow your meaning, I would think the opposite would occur. That the "more" people expressed thier orientation, the impact would be lessened. If anything it just might drive the homophobes into locking their doors and hiding in their closets.

[AFriendlyFace]

A big in-the-closet-pusher for me was, when in high-school, a fellow student came out, publicly. Now, I must say, no one really liked the guy, from before, because of his personality, but let's say that kind of worsened when he came out... And that's not really a good thing to see while being in the closet yourself...

 

A female friend of mine recently got into a relationship with some guy, and to get her friends to know him and his friends to know her, she invited us to an evening of bowling. Now, he invited 2 guys, and both were gay. And seeing how my friends all reacted friendly towards those 2, really helped me to get a little confident about coming out...

 

So there you have some evidence (not clearly stated though, sorry for that ) that it really can help, and that the opposite is true as well...

Wow! Well I'm really glad you've at least gotten to experience it happening in a positive context as well! Try to take heart from the fact that, based on the sound of it, the guy in the first instance just might not have been very likable to begin with so people were using whatever 'ammo' they could on him (which is still very unfortunate ). Also, very often high school in general is a more difficult place to be out and to be out with positive experiences (though it looks like that's starting to change significantly! )

 

I, myself was in the closet in high school, but I had a couple of friends/acquaintances who were basically out (still not officially though) and they were both still very well-liked and quite popular even. On the other hand there were a couple of instances of people who were obviously gay who were not well liked, but once again that seemed to go back to them personally and related to them generally not being that likable/easy to get along with.

 

no, you stated it clearly . It has been the thing that I have noticed as the most important thing in making people comfortable, and I have seen the affects within some of my friends. I am not 'out' myself, that really is more to do with I don't really know what the hell I want and so am quietly trying to figure it out, and get used to the idea, but the longer it takes and the more conclusive ideas I'm getting, the more I feel like I am possibily decieving people. But regardless, I try and make making people feel able to be comfortable one of my priorities in general - and do that if I can via various signals, but I can only show I am as openminded as I am to a certain level then its up to the person. The last few days I've gotten quite frustrated, even though I know I have no right to be, because a newish but good uni friend (so they don't know my home friends), who knows my views and attitudes, was accidentally revealed to me by a mutual friend to be gay and have a boyfriend in another city, it makes no difference to me whatsoever, but he is obviously not comfortable with me yet to tell me himself, and has deliberatly tried to decieve me with some of the things he has said. So now I'm stuck with having to pretend I don't know until he tells me (if he does), and its sad and upsetting that they won't just tell me, in fact slightly hurtfull - but I completley understand that its up to them and its not easy and I don't want to make them uncomfortable. but yeah thats been aggravating me the last 2 days.

I can really identify with what you're saying! Recently I was in a different set of circumstances but in many ways it was similar. One of my good friends had starting dating another guy with whom I'd had a falling out. One of our mutual friends told me. The friend himself waited a very long time to do it and subtly tried to mislead/keep me from finding out. Evidently he thought I just wouldn't be able to handle it and would freak out, or get angry or hurt. Interestingly it was that mutual friend (who ostensibly shouldn't have had any problem with the situation) that was weirded out by it, and that was of course why he'd told me. Personally I was very happy for them both and thought it was a good idea. But I had to keep on acting like I didn't know until he'd finally told me. At which point I told him I was happy for him and thought it was a good idea.

 

It was just irritating that he was treating me like I was made of glass or something and wouldn't be able to handle the situation.

 

......I'm not sure I follow your meaning, I would think the opposite would occur. That the "more" people expressed thier orientation, the impact would be lessened. If anything it just might drive the homophobes into locking their doors and hiding in their closets.

That's very much what I think as well! An example: unfortunately I know a few somewhat racist people ( ), but they're only like that privately behind closed doors, they certainly don't go around proclaiming their feelings for everyone to hear. It's unfortunate that they still feel that way in this day and age (well it would be unfortunate in any day and age), but at least they aren't openly mean or offensive to people of other races.

[Daisy]

I can really identify with what you're saying! Recently I was in a different set of circumstances but in many ways it was similar. One of my good friends had starting dating another guy with whom I'd had a falling out. One of our mutual friends told me. The friend himself waited a very long time to do it and subtly tried to mislead/keep me from finding out. Evidently he thought I just wouldn't be able to handle it and would freak out, or get angry or hurt. Interestingly it was that mutual friend (who ostensibly shouldn't have had any problem with the situation) that was weirded out by it, and that was of course why he'd told me. Personally I was very happy for them both and thought it was a good idea. But I had to keep on acting like I didn't know until he'd finally told me. At which point I told him I was happy for him and thought it was a good idea.

 

It was just irritating that he was treating me like I was made of glass or something and wouldn't be able to handle the situation.

 

Yeah, its frustrating when they are sortof making the decision for you as to how you will react. But it sounds in your case, I've had something simular happen with other friends, that they didnt want to hurt you since you were a good friend, rather than just thinking you were made of glass. With my situation, sigh, I know it could be that they just aren't secure with themselves to tell lots of people yet, it may take them alittle while to build up his courage, but I now feel I can't act normal around him, because all I'm thinking about it that they are soo comfortable lying to me - and I know some closeted people set up things like that to kind of protect themselves, but really, I never lead him to say any of the things he said. Its frustrating because in general he seems like a really really great guy and possible long-time friend - but this is somehow tarnishing him for me - and I think I feel worse about this because he appears to be such a great guy - that and I've been pretty open with alot of other private stuff going on in my life. I don't know, I've just got to forget about it, its his life.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Smarties

[AFriendlyFace]

Have you considered dropping hints that you might be GLBT friendly?

[Daisy]

Have you considered dropping hints that you might be GLBT friendly?

 

Already done that. Did that before I knew he was gay. Thats what I meant about he knew my views and attitudes, albeit I didnt have a long conversation about it, but he has heard me talk about gay people - I was discussing how to write a paper on public space, exclusions and gender, sexual differences and prostitutes, and he managed to come across as if he genuinly hadnt really thought about it or wasn't that enlightened -- haha was doing my speel on visibility and theory behind it, how you can't stick up for yourself if you are made to be invisible, aka dont ask don't tell, or forcing prostitues off the streets, society norms etc. Don't worry I wasn't going overboard, was careful with how i said it. so yeah, he knows my views. but even after that he made an effort to mention his heterosexuality (again he was given a cue via this course we have been taking together)- because otherwise I don't mention things like that directly. sooo....it seems like he isn't comfortable telling me and there is nothing I can do about it unless I want a confrontation which I don't think is fair. its just making me less inclined to be their friend, but thats also not fair. I'm sure it'll work out, I just need to be patient.

Celia

[Bandage]

Wow! Well I'm really glad you've at least gotten to experience it happening in a positive context as well! Try to take heart from the fact that, based on the sound of it, the guy in the first instance just might not have been very likable to begin with so people were using whatever 'ammo' they could on him (which is still very unfortunate ). Also, very often high school in general is a more difficult place to be out and to be out with positive experiences (though it looks like that's starting to change significantly! )

 

I, myself was in the closet in high school, but I had a couple of friends/acquaintances who were basically out (still not officially though) and they were both still very well-liked and quite popular even. On the other hand there were a couple of instances of people who were obviously gay who were not well liked, but once again that seemed to go back to them personally and related to them generally not being that likable/easy to get along with.

 

Well, I'm glad I could witness their reactions, it did help me. There were a few guys in high school that were not quite out, but everyone knew they were, they were also somewhat popular, but everyone gossiped about them and that was a bit frightening as well...

 

It's "nice" to see you got the same kind of reactions in high school, maybe pointing out that 3 years don't really make that big of a difference, or it's just that my country is a bit behind on that part, since we're on the other side of the world?

 

 

Already done that. Did that before I knew he was gay. Thats what I meant about he knew my views and attitudes, albeit I didnt have a long conversation about it, but he has heard me talk about gay people - I was discussing how to write a paper on public space, exclusions and gender, sexual differences and prostitutes, and he managed to come across as if he genuinly hadnt really thought about it or wasn't that enlightened -- haha was doing my speel on visibility and theory behind it, how you can't stick up for yourself if you are made to be invisible, aka dont ask don't tell, or forcing prostitues off the streets, society norms etc. Don't worry I wasn't going overboard, was careful with how i said it. so yeah, he knows my views. but even after that he made an effort to mention his heterosexuality (again he was given a cue via this course we have been taking together)- because otherwise I don't mention things like that directly. sooo....it seems like he isn't comfortable telling me and there is nothing I can do about it unless I want a confrontation which I don't think is fair. its just making me less inclined to be their friend, but thats also not fair. I'm sure it'll work out, I just need to be patient.

Celia

 

Thanks for the :thumbup:s

I admire you, lol. If I were in your position, all I would be thinking about while talking to him, is that he's actually gay and doesn't want to tell... And when I think about something, I just HAVE to say it lol...

I'd go for a slight confrontation, like: "Ow, You know what I happen to have heard some time ago? You having a boyfriend? Why didn't you tell me?" But if you tell him that, keep your tone light and happy, otherwise he might inch away from you... If he sees that you know, and don't have a problem with it, he might be relieved... But that's my point and my big mouth

But if you keep that to yourself, you can really damage your view of him, and a friendship can't really thrive on that...

[Daisy]

Thanks for the :thumbup:s

I admire you, lol. If I were in your position, all I would be thinking about while talking to him, is that he's actually gay and doesn't want to tell... And when I think about something, I just HAVE to say it lol...

I'd go for a slight confrontation, like: "Ow, You know what I happen to have heard some time ago? You having a boyfriend? Why didn't you tell me?" But if you tell him that, keep your tone light and happy, otherwise he might inch away from you... If he sees that you know, and don't have a problem with it, he might be relieved... But that's my point and my big mouth

But if you keep that to yourself, you can really damage your view of him, and a friendship can't really thrive on that...

 

Thanks. Thats exactly my problem, I really want to confront him about it. I saw him last night, and it was difficult being around him. I just hadn't made up my mind at that point what I should do. I haven't even really talked to the friend who spilled it yet. It doesnt bloody help that my ultra big and scarey finals are tomorrow and the day after, ones that will decide my future for the next few years, so I don't really need this distraction. I normally deal with things by being direct, cutting through the bullshit, but I just couldnt work out whether this time it was appropriate since he had deliberately tried to mislead me, that and I think because I was imagining him as really good new friend that I was more hurt than anything so it was interfering with how I handle things. If I don't deal with it, I cannot carry on developing a friendship with him because it seems fake and its tormenting me too much, so yeah I'm thinking I do need to do something. I, sigh, just don't want him to freak out on me, or blame the other friend for spilling, and unlike other times where I have dealt with friends coming out - I'm nervous, so slightly worried can't keep the tone light rather than accusatory (over the deception). and the sooner the better so I can get it off my mind. maybe tomorrow after my exams, I'll be too tired after 4 and a half hours of exams to be nervous, and he'll be too tired to have a heart attack .

Celia

Edited May 21, 2008 by Smarties

[Bandage]

Thanks. Thats exactly my problem, I really want to confront him about it. I saw him last night, and it was difficult being around him. I just hadn't made up my mind at that point what I should do. I haven't even really talked to the friend who spilled it yet. It doesnt bloody help that my ultra big and scarey finals are tomorrow and the day after, ones that will decide my future for the next few years, so I don't really need this distraction. I normally deal with things by being direct, cutting through the bullshit, but I just couldnt work out whether this time it was appropriate since he had deliberately tried to mislead me, that and I think because I was imagining him as really good new friend that I was more hurt than anything so it was interfering with how I handle things. If I don't deal with it, I cannot carry on developing a friendship with him because it seems fake and its tormenting me too much, so yeah I'm thinking I do need to do something. I, sigh, just don't want him to freak out on me, or blame the other friend for spilling, and unlike other times where I have dealt with friends coming out - I'm nervous, so slightly worried can't keep the tone light rather than accusatory (over the deception). and the sooner the better so I can get it off my mind. maybe tomorrow after my exams, I'll be too tired after 4 and a half hours of exams to be nervous, and he'll be too tired to have a heart attack .

Celia

 

It's a pity that you'd lose a good friend over such a thing...

Well, you can always practice in front of the mirror? That can help with the tone in which you'll say it But of course, you can't sound accusatory, because that will indeed send him off...

It's great that you'll do it soon though, otherwise it will keep on tormenting you and he will feel a lot better around you when it's out in the open and dealt with

 

And Yikes!! Good luck on your exams!! I'm sure you'll do fine!

[Daisy]

It's a pity that you'd lose a good friend over such a thing...

Well, you can always practice in front of the mirror? That can help with the tone in which you'll say it But of course, you can't sound accusatory, because that will indeed send him off...

It's great that you'll do it soon though, otherwise it will keep on tormenting you and he will feel a lot better around you when it's out in the open and dealt with

 

And Yikes!! Good luck on your exams!! I'm sure you'll do fine!

 

Hia, just thought I might as well update. I didnt confront him, I waited and he told me yesterday on a night out. well sorta . He was dropping hints like ... the cricket team's are ususally fit (we were looking at uni photos), and then when we bumbed into a mutual friend who I had gone to highschool with who had dated 2 of my friends (M&F) from home, turns out HE had gone on a date with him also . It is a very smallll world. so I just thought I'd end it and ask him if he was seeing anyone, so he eventually told me . glad that mess is over, I don't like pretending I don't know things. but it ended well

 

Celia

[AFriendlyFace]

Hia, just thought I might as well update. I didnt confront him, I waited and he told me yesterday on a night out. well sorta . He was dropping hints like ... the cricket team's are ususally fit (we were looking at uni photos), and then when we bumbed into a mutual friend who I had gone to highschool with who had dated 2 of my friends (M&F) from home, turns out HE had gone on a date with him also . It is a very smallll world. so I just thought I'd end it and ask him if he was seeing anyone, so he eventually told me . glad that mess is over, I don't like pretending I don't know things. but it ended well

 

Celia

YAY!!!

 

I'm so glad everything is out in the open now and you guys can be honest with each other!!

[Bandage]

Hia, just thought I might as well update. I didnt confront him, I waited and he told me yesterday on a night out. well sorta . He was dropping hints like ... the cricket team's are ususally fit (we were looking at uni photos), and then when we bumbed into a mutual friend who I had gone to highschool with who had dated 2 of my friends (M&F) from home, turns out HE had gone on a date with him also . It is a very smallll world. so I just thought I'd end it and ask him if he was seeing anyone, so he eventually told me . glad that mess is over, I don't like pretending I don't know things. but it ended well

 

Celia

YAY!!!

 

I'm so glad everything is out in the open now and you guys can be honest with each other!!

 

Wheeee!

I'm so glad you got to talk about it! It sure will make you feel better in your friendship with him! So you got him trapped in the after-exam-buzz eh?

 

Anyhow, Congratulations on your results! I won't know mine before Juli 3d, so I still have a long wait...