Sounding Gay

[AFriendlyFace]

I recently came across an interesting article on the topic of gay speech. I'm not trying to present it as scientific at all, in fact it seems like they used a small sample size and did a great deal of speculating and conjecturing. Nevertheless, I found it thoroughly interesting and thought it might be nice to have a chat about it here. Check it out: Sounding Gay

 

I think the last sentence, unrelated to actually sounding gay, brings up an interesting point:

 

Still, the likelihood of further research in this area, according to Gaudio and Zwicky, is remote due to the political touchiness of studying gay speech.

 

I have no doubt that a lot people will find the article controversial. In fact I fully expect several of you to vehemently assert something to the effect of, "I don't sound gay." or "I don't think it's accurate to try to generalize something like that to refer to all gays." Well okay, maybe you don't sound gay, and undoubtedly many gays are indistinguishable by their voices. Nevertheless, my personal opinion (again, just opinion, not trying to say it's fact) is that a lot of gay people are identifiable by their voices and speech patterns. I have a pretty good gaydar and at least some part of that is based on how the person sounds. On past occasions I've accurately identified gay people in non-sexually oriented environments strictly by the sound of their voice (without ever having seen them, and only getting confirmation of their sexuality later).

 

Personally, I don't find it controversial or offensive. I think it's fine if someone doesn't sound gay, but I think sounding gay is at least a mildly positive quality (assuming you are gay that is). I often speak of gay culture, and like every other culture, I think speech patterns play a role in that. I think it's a good thing for gay people to sound subtly gay because it affirms their status and culture. By the same token I think it's perfectly fine for people's voices to indicate their racial/ethnic status or geographic region. Assuming they're comfortable and happy with this status I see no problem at all in representing it. I can see the argument that having one's sexuality (or race/ethnicity or geographic region) identified by voice can expose one to prejudice, but that's a failing on the prejudiced listener's part, not on the speaker's. I can hear someone and think "oh he/she is ____" (insert race/ethnicity) or "oh he/she is ___" (insert geographic region) and not feel any prejudice toward that person. Nor do I then begin to hold expectations or stereotypes for that person. In simple terms I can pick out a Southern accent, but that doesn't mean I think the person I've pegged as "Southern" is going to act or behave a certain way due to their status as a Southerner.

 

Anyway, I enjoyed the brief article, can't attest for sure one way or the other about its accuracy, but speculatively agree with it for the most part, and I also think that it's mostly a good thing if gays have their own unique speech patterns in the same way that I'm in favour of all other cultural aspects (literature, music, history, art, cuisine, fashion, etc.)

 

One final note, all of my comments (and it seems to me like the article's speculations as well) are only in reference to gay males. I strongly suspect lesbians have a distinct style of speech as well, but despite knowing a lot of lesbians, I'm still pretty sketchy on picking it out, so I really can't make any comment about it.

 

Take care all and have a great day

Kevin

Edited April 4, 2009 by AFriendlyFace

[JamesSavik]

Just Another Old Tired Stereotype

 

If you go by the way people sound, you'll find that many effiminate sounding guys are actually str8.

[AFriendlyFace]

Just Another Old Tired Stereotype

 

If you go by the way people sound, you'll find that many effiminate sounding guys are actually str8.

I don't think "effeminate" is the whole story. Certainly some gay guys do sound effeminate, as do many straight guys, and certainly many gay guys don't sound effeminate (as do many straight guys). However, as the article indicates (and as I agree with) there are other pronunciation styles and speech patterns which have nothing to do with the pitch of the voice. When I think of "effeminate sounding" I think of a high, more feminine voice, and I think one can certainly sound gay without sounding effeminate. Indeed I've known guys who didn't sound effeminate but did sound gay.

 

Really, I'm thinking of this as more of an accent and a style of speech (vernacular, slang, idioms, and other expressions) than as anything relating to the tone of voice itself. Again to use the same example "sounding Southern" has nothing to do with how feminine or masculine you sound.

 

Going back to the specific style of speech part of this (and focusing less on the accent here), my friends and I occasionally use words, and describe/express things, in ways that the average, non-gay exposed straight person would not even understand. Or we legitimately say things and use phrases that while popular enough to be understood by all aren't likely to be used by non-gays.

 

 

 

-Kevin

Edited April 4, 2009 by AFriendlyFace

[Sir Galahad]

I for one don

[Ieshwar]

I have noted that gays tend to sound more 'sophisticated' and are quite selective of what they speak. Of course, I don't have many gay friends (which I met and talked to in real) but I'm talking from the past experiences. We (this includes me) tend to avoid swear words (especially the crude ones). And... I'm not able to put it in words. I think sophisticated might be the best word here. And I found two reasons for this:

 

1. As in-closet gays, we have to be very careful of what we speak. So choosing the correct words without letting much out is something we have developed.

 

2. Given that we are amongst gays and that we are somewhat potential boyfriends, it is kinda normal that we would like to show the best part fo us. Swearing and being blunt isn't the best way to impress someone.

 

I don't know if I'm write but this is what my small brain came out with.

 

I agree with the research but i believe that the difference is rather small and you need to look for it to find it.

 

take care,

Ieshwar

[Tim1001]

LOL this is pretty cool topic. leshwar hun, i tend to swear all the time, no matter who im around, its just the way i talk and Kev sweety, i know you just LOVE my southern accent discounting my "pitch" which is really gay most of the time i think it has to do more with the stressing of certain words. from the stereotypical HEEEEY to something as simple as an endearment, i dunno, but even those husky gravelish bass voices that make my stomache flutter and knees go weak and undies dampen just sound different (sometimes) between gay and straight men

[myself_i_must_remake]

i like the idea of it as culture. honestly i'm not in love with how gay guys sometimes sound, but i like the word games, and i'm known kind of for my speech ticks and tendencies because it rubs off on people.

[AFriendlyFace]

I have noted that gays tend to sound more 'sophisticated' and are quite selective of what they speak. Of course, I don't have many gay friends (which I met and talked to in real) but I'm talking from the past experiences. We (this includes me) tend to avoid swear words (especially the crude ones). And... I'm not able to put it in words. I think sophisticated might be the best word here. And I found two reasons for this:

 

1. As in-closet gays, we have to be very careful of what we speak. So choosing the correct words without letting much out is something we have developed.

 

2. Given that we are amongst gays and that we are somewhat potential boyfriends, it is kinda normal that we would like to show the best part fo us. Swearing and being blunt isn't the best way to impress someone.

 

I don't know if I'm write but this is what my small brain came out with.

 

I agree with the research but i believe that the difference is rather small and you need to look for it to find it.

Hmm, Christmas before last my best friend and I went to a holiday party at the home of one of our friends from church. There were a couple of other gay people there, but the majority were straight people (notable because I rarely socialize much anymore in groups where straight people are predominant ). Anyway, no one swore for the entire evening. That is until we broke into two huge teams and started playing the party game "Taboo." In case anyone is unfamiliar with the game players take turns getting cards. The card will have a word on it, let's say "broom." Below the main word will be five other words which the player isn't allowed to say while describing the primary word to his/her team. For example "bristles," "sweep," "witch," "mop," and "dustpan," might be disallowed for the clue broom. The player gets a set amount of time and the more words he/she is able to correctly describe to his/her team without saying the taboo words, the more points the team gets. One of the players from the opposing team monitors the clue giving player to make sure that he/she doesn't say one of the taboo words. If the player does then the monitoring person presses the buzzer and the team loses a point.

 

So we're all having a good time, and I've already gone a few times and done pretty well so I'm starting to get a bit competitive. Anyway, sure enough halfway through my turn I accidentally say one of the taboo words and the buzzer goes off. Without being able to stop myself I exclaimed, "Oh F***!" At first everyone seemed a bit surprised then everyone started to laugh (and of course this interruption made my turn even less effective ). But anyway, the whole evening the only time anyone swore it was me, a gay guy

 

In general though I think I do agree with Ieshwar's statements. I think as a whole gay people might be moderately less likely to swear in social settings than straight people, but I actually think the "sophisticated" thing he's describing is very accurate and has a lot to do with general word usage and language style.

 

 

LOL this is pretty cool topic. leshwar hun, i tend to swear all the time, no matter who im around, its just the way i talk and Kev sweety, i know you just LOVE my southern accent discounting my "pitch" which is really gay most of the time i think it has to do more with the stressing of certain words. from the stereotypical HEEEEY to something as simple as an endearment, i dunno, but even those husky gravelish bass voices that make my stomache flutter and knees go weak and undies dampen just sound different (sometimes) between gay and straight men

I think that's a good point, Tim. I definitely think one of the key aspects is indeed the stressing and pronunciation of words versus just the pitch with which they are said. I also agree that a lot of gay people are more likely to use those terms of endearment like "hun" or "sweety." I don't use them that often, but I do occasionally, and I'm sure I'm more likely to do it than your average straight male. On the other hand I call people, "dude" a good bit, and less frequently but occasionally, "man" and when I say that I do mean it as a term of endearment. I wouldn't say it to someone I didn't like, which can be seen in the fact that I occasionally say it to lesbians and perhaps the rare straight girl. I embarrassed myself one time though when I was hanging out with some friends and one of them was an MTF trans person. I hadn't known the person long but I was growing to like her, and without thinking about it I accidentally addressed her as, "dude." You can imagine how that went over

[writeincode]

I'm doing a bachelor of speech pathology and one of our lecturers once told us about a (peer-reviewed, large sample sized) study linking 'effeminate' gay speech with an increase in, quantitatively, pitch variance and qualitatively, prosody.

 

I guess that's why it's called 'effeminate' since female speech generally has more pitch variance than male. M->F transexuals sometimes get speech therapy to increase prosody and overall pitch

Edited April 5, 2009 by writeincode

[ashessnow]

Hmm. The thing about stereotypes is that they have some form of truth. You can tell by how they talk if someone is gay. Not always, but usually. Just like how they walk or look or whatever. I am gay. I sound, look and walk gay. And I don't have a problem with it. To me it just makes things easier. Of course I really dont think I "act" anyway (gay or straight or effeminate or butch), I just am.

 

And I cuss. A lot. And I dare anyone to try to tell me I shouldnt.

[clumber]

Very interesting article.

 

I personally have noticed since going to a few gay bars to hang around and stuff that gay people do tend have a sort of accent of their own. Again, not really the whole "masculine/femenine" thing, and people who try to just associate any mention of gay voices with one of those is probably missing the point so badly they can't even see the point. However, there is a sort of speech pattern and stuff that goes around. However, I couldn't spot it at all in any other situation.

 

I know I certainly don't sound effeminate but who knows, I might be starting to sound more gay .

 

 

 

Just as a sort of side note though, there was one thing which did get to me a bit:

 

but I think sounding gay is at least a mildly positive quality (assuming you are gay that is). I often speak of gay culture, and like every other culture, I think speech patterns play a role in that. I think it's a good thing for gay people to sound subtly gay because it affirms their status and culture.

 

Now, Im not at all certain that the whole concept of "gay culture" is really all that good. It's certainly not a culture that I like. Basically, my experience of having gay friends might have been positive, but my experience of 'Gay Culture' itself is a bit more iffy. Basically, I'll get one thing settled. I don't look gay, and I don't want to. I have long hair and wear boots and jeans and Metallica t-shirts and the like. Quite certainly "not gay". However, this apparently leaves me in a difficult position.

 

I like going to gay bars because a lot of my friends hang out there and I like going out with my friends. Also, I do often get chatting to people who my friends know and get to know those people and so on and so forth. It's always a good night. However, my experience with people I don't know at these bars has been less than positive. Numerous times Ive been told that I "look stupid" because of the clothes I wear and that if I want to "ever even be looked at twice" I should cut my hair short and start wearing different stuff. Well, no. Sod that. I'll wear whatever I bloody well want to and sod anyone who doesn't agree.

 

However, that there, the thing I am saying "sod that" to... well, that is the image, nature and apparently the very core of "Gay Culture". So in other words its not so much a culture to identify with as a group of rude people being insulting. Why on earth would it ever be positive to associate yourself with that?

 

 

Martin

Edited April 5, 2009 by clumber

[Ieshwar]

Martin, long hair can never be stupid. Never ever. Unless you don't wash it.

 

Kev and Tim: Yeah, I meant that gays [/] tend [/i] to not swear. But of course, we do. I remember when I had recently come to the uni. After 4-5 week,s a few friends invited me to play foosball. The thing is that I started to get very 'in' the game. I started cussing (quite loudly) and they were quiet shocked (and laughing too). They had never heard me swear before. :rollseyes:

 

Ieshwar

[Tim1001]

lol im REALLY liking this topic

 

clumber im sorry you met the rude gays, they can be a pain in the ass please dont think that they, in any way shape or form, represent the "gay culture" thats why i like the club i go to (when i go out) EVERYONE is welcome there, from the skin heads to the rednecks in their sh*t stomping boots, and we all get along and intermingle, which is interesting because you meet some very strange individuals that you realise you really like, that you wouldnt have glanced twice at on the street.

 

maybe thats one of speech pattern things, we're (usually) pacifists, and try to make sure arguments dont get out of hand, so we use less confrontational words or something.

 

we tend to be more discriptive when talking about things. ive noticed my straight friends, when talking about a girl will always say, as their first discription "she's f*ing HOT man" while i and my gay friends tend to go in to specifics right from the start "did you see how dark and smoldering his eyes are?"

 

kev sweetie , dude and man ARE endearments , its all about the emotion behind the words.

 

leshwar i LOVE your sig!! wallpapering the sistine chapel but you are right i suppose, although i DO swear, i tend to censor which words i use depending on the situation

[Adrian Michaels]

This is a cool topic!

 

I guess if it were to come down to "sounding gay"... well , yeah I totally do. But then again, I'm not sure if has anything to do with the fact that I'm gay, or becuase I've been acting for years and years. I've just become more expressive of emotions, and when something exciting happens, i'm EXCITED!

 

As far as "gay speech" goes, I totally believe in it. While of course not EVERYONE is going to fit in the same category, a lot of peopole do. The entire concept of GAYDAR is based on judging various stereotypes and seeing if a person fits into them. But none of us complain about THAT!

 

And I also think that sounding gay has a lot to do with how comfortable a person is in a certain situation. I've been known to have my "business voice", which is very even toned and non-excited. This is used during board meetings, and basically whenever the suit and tie come out. But the same thing happens to everyone i think. I've seen some of my gay friends, who many would call straight-acting (another issue I don't really want to get into, because I think it's silly) let out a very camp "hey girl hey" when around friends they're feeling safe with.

 

So, do I think the gay voice exisits? Yup. Do I think it really matters?? Noooope. But then, half of us would have really bad gaydars without it!

[AFriendlyFace]

I'm doing a bachelor of speech pathology and one of our lecturers once told us about a (peer-reviewed, large sample sized) study linking 'effeminate' gay speech with an increase in, quantitatively, pitch variance and qualitatively, prosody.

 

I guess that's why it's called 'effeminate' since female speech generally has more pitch variance than male. M->F transexuals sometimes get speech therapy to increase prosody and overall pitch

LOL, Oddly enough I was just having a conversation an MTF transwoman today about vocal pitch.

 

Now, Im not at all certain that the whole concept of "gay culture" is really all that good. It's certainly not a culture that I like. Basically, my experience of having gay friends might have been positive, but my experience of 'Gay Culture' itself is a bit more iffy. Basically, I'll get one thing settled. I don't look gay, and I don't want to. I have long hair and wear boots and jeans and Metallica t-shirts and the like. Quite certainly "not gay". However, this apparently leaves me in a difficult position.

 

I like going to gay bars because a lot of my friends hang out there and I like going out with my friends. Also, I do often get chatting to people who my friends know and get to know those people and so on and so forth. It's always a good night. However, my experience with people I don't know at these bars has been less than positive. Numerous times Ive been told that I "look stupid" because of the clothes I wear and that if I want to "ever even be looked at twice" I should cut my hair short and start wearing different stuff. Well, no. Sod that. I'll wear whatever I bloody well want to and sod anyone who doesn't agree.

 

However, that there, the thing I am saying "sod that" to... well, that is the image, nature and apparently the very core of "Gay Culture". So in other words its not so much a culture to identify with as a group of rude people being insulting. Why on earth would it ever be positive to associate yourself with that?

Hmm, I have some thoughts on this, Martin. If you don't want to be a part of it, then I definitely think that's fine, but I would encourage you to keep an open mind in general and also to judge it on more than just one or two contextual situations. Gay culture is not synonymous with gay club culture. There is a LOT more to it than that and even if you don't like gay club culture it doesn't mean you can find things you enjoy that relate to:

 

-Humour

-History

-Art

-Literature (indeed I would say that you're probably at least marginalized exposed to, and I would speculate enjoying, this aspect of gay culture already and would likely enjoy reading and contemplating print books as well)

-Music

-Movies

-Ethics and Values

-Social Perspectives.

 

You might also enjoy gay venues and gay socialization more in a non-club setting. For example gay run, and patronized:

 

-Restaurants,

-Cafes

-Stores, Businesses, and other services (almost any and every type you can imagine)

-Pubs and bars (which can often be more relaxed than clubs).

 

-There are also gay sports and recreation leagues for almost any sport or game you can imagine.

-There are quite a few gay religious organizations for almost any denomination you can think of (even the traditionally homophobic ones often have their own "gay" branch consisting of still devout followers who are attempting to reconcile their faith and sexuality).

-The are gay professional organizations for lawyers, doctors, and a ton of other careers.

-Obviously we mustn't forget things like the theatre, symphony, and opera, which are certainly stereotypical and may not be your thing, but which you might still view as more positive overall.

 

So simply because you don't like gay club culture (or any one or two other aspects of gay culture), please don't dismiss the whole thing out of hand and decide that you wouldn't enjoy other forms of gay socialization or the unique spin GLBT people have put on some other common, everyday life experiences and activities.

 

lol im REALLY liking this topic

 

clumber im sorry you met the rude gays, they can be a pain in the ass please dont think that they, in any way shape or form, represent the "gay culture" thats why i like the club i go to (when i go out) EVERYONE is welcome there, from the skin heads to the rednecks in their sh*t stomping boots, and we all get along and intermingle, which is interesting because you meet some very strange individuals that you realise you really like, that you wouldnt have glanced twice at on the street.

 

maybe thats one of speech pattern things, we're (usually) pacifists, and try to make sure arguments dont get out of hand, so we use less confrontational words or something.

I actually quite agree with this as well. My experiences with gay clubs (and as I said, gay clubs are a relatively small part of gay culture overall anyway) has been quite positive as a whole. No offense meant at all, but maybe you're going to the bitchier sort of clubs or interacting with the more judgmental people at the clubs. More simply, maybe you're just going to the wrong sorts of clubs for you. I know a lot of gay people who like Metallica (don't tell anyone, but I myself like their music, but dislike them on principle dating back to the whole Napster/MP3 thing from the late 90s). A fondness for heavier rock music is not at all "ungay," nor is wearing band shirts, jeans, and having long hair. There is most definitely a gay scene for that. Of course one of notable size might not exist in your location.

 

 

we tend to be more discriptive when talking about things. ive noticed my straight friends, when talking about a girl will always say, as their first discription "she's f*ing HOT man" while i and my gay friends tend to go in to specifics right from the start "did you see how dark and smoldering his eyes are?"

 

kev sweetie , dude and man ARE endearments , its all about the emotion behind the words.

 

leshwar i LOVE your sig!! wallpapering the sistine chapel but you are right i suppose, although i DO swear, i tend to censor which words i use depending on the situation

I agree, good points!

 

Martin, long hair can never be stupid. Never ever. Unless you don't wash it.

 

Kev and Tim: Yeah, I meant that gays [/] tend [/i] to not swear. But of course, we do. I remember when I had recently come to the uni. After 4-5 week,s a few friends invited me to play foosball. The thing is that I started to get very 'in' the game. I started cussing (quite loudly) and they were quiet shocked (and laughing too). They had never heard me swear before. :rollseyes:

 

Ieshwar

So didja win?

 

This is a cool topic!

 

I guess if it were to come down to "sounding gay"... well , yeah I totally do. But then again, I'm not sure if has anything to do with the fact that I'm gay, or becuase I've been acting for years and years. I've just become more expressive of emotions, and when something exciting happens, i'm EXCITED!

 

As far as "gay speech" goes, I totally believe in it. While of course not EVERYONE is going to fit in the same category, a lot of peopole do. The entire concept of GAYDAR is based on judging various stereotypes and seeing if a person fits into them. But none of us complain about THAT!

 

And I also think that sounding gay has a lot to do with how comfortable a person is in a certain situation. I've been known to have my "business voice", which is very even toned and non-excited. This is used during board meetings, and basically whenever the suit and tie come out. But the same thing happens to everyone i think. I've seen some of my gay friends, who many would call straight-acting (another issue I don't really want to get into, because I think it's silly) let out a very camp "hey girl hey" when around friends they're feeling safe with.

 

So, do I think the gay voice exisits? Yup. Do I think it really matters?? Noooope. But then, half of us would have really bad gaydars without it!

 

I agree with all this. I think a lot of this, like almost all behavioural, social things, comes down to how the person perceives what is appropriate in the context at hand. One sign of having good social skills is being able to express yourself (not lose yourself) in the language and style most appropriate to your situation. The language and expression I use in a professional setting is going to be different from the language I use in a social setting with casual friends, and both will be different from the language and expression style I use with close friends and close family members. I'll probably use a slightly different style of expression still if I'm going to be be speaking and socializing at a gay rights event, or engaging in a theological/philosophical/spiritual discussion. I'm still going to try to express my core ideals and the main aspects of my personality, but I'm going to do these things very differently in each situation.

 

I think that very often after a period of time gay people have spent a lot of time with other gay people and a lot of the linguistic styles and expressions have "rubbed off" on them. It's very likely that they'll start to emulate the expression style while in these settings, and there's nothing wrong with that at all; it's what all people do to "fit in" to their environments and feel comfortable. I think it's inevitable, and as I said desirable, that some of those ways of communicating will carry over into other situations to some extent. It might be that the person seems "less gay" in their professional role as a doctor let's say, but there will still be traces of the "gay person" there because that's an important aspect of the person. In the same way, the gay person might sound less like a "doctor" in social settings, but some ways of communicating, thinking, and behaving are most certainly going to remain because again being a doctor is significant in this person's life. Naturally it's also likely that the way one expresses oneself with intimate family and friends (not 'social' per se, more the unique 'language' of the family) will also come through in some places.

 

I think it's this big, rich amalgam of contexts and individual cultures and 'languages' that makes each person uniquely who they are. I for one am happy that my experiences, history, and status as a gay person is expressed in the way I communicate.

 

 

Just a few more of my thoughts

-Kevin

[Guest ericsmith]

Hi,

 

I m Eric and i like nice friend...

[Ieshwar]

I lost. But i made some great scores!

[Johnathan Colourfield]

I'm doing a bachelor of speech pathology and one of our lecturers once told us about a (peer-reviewed, large sample sized) study linking 'effeminate' gay speech with an increase in, quantitatively, pitch variance and qualitatively, prosody.

 

I guess that's why it's called 'effeminate' since female speech generally has more pitch variance than male. M->F transexuals sometimes get speech therapy to increase prosody and overall pitch

 

 

yeah this is true , i discussed this with my Speech Teacher ( punches whoever says therapist ) the other day and she said that most gay people ( female or male ) seem to have a different pitch , lesbians usually have either a lower or darker tone to their voice and gays usually have either a floaty or understandable tone.

there was this really cool test she did with us in class to do with pitching and how close you are to having a "gay" voice and i came out completly straight. Which was wrong but i sound really feminine i think lol but she said no lol

 

With lesbians/gays we are meant to be more pronouced in the way we say things as well for example , with gays ( please excuse the term i hate it myself ) we are more clear when we communicate and our voices are meant to sound quite airy and light and indirect and this is quite a key point to do with someones gaydar as well.

[Benji]

yeah this is true , i discussed this with my Speech Teacher ( punches whoever says therapist ) the other day and she said that most gay people ( female or male ) seem to have a different pitch , lesbians usually have either a lower or darker tone to their voice and gays usually have either a floaty or understandable tone.

there was this really cool test she did with us in class to do with pitching and how close you are to having a "gay" voice and i came out completly straight. Which was wrong but i sound really feminine i think lol but she said no lol

 

With lesbians/gays we are meant to be more pronouced in the way we say things as well for example , with gays ( please excuse the term i hate it myself ) we are more clear when we communicate and our voices are meant to sound quite airy and light and indirect and this is quite a key point to do with someones gaydar as well.

 

Humm, Mike Tyson was a great fighter, a rapist (at least convicted of such) and had one of the most effeminate voices I ever heard on a guy, yet I never heard any claim him to be gay! So throwing just that one out there kinda blows out the 'classroom study'

Edited April 17, 2009 by Benji

[Johnathan Colourfield]

well i didnt know that. Classroom studies are usually all you have

i think in alot of cases this is true though

 

I have another lesson tommorow morning with her so i'll suggest this and maybe get an argumental discussion going

[Benji]

well i didnt know that. Classroom studies are usually all you have

i think in alot of cases this is true though

 

I have another lesson tommorow morning with her so i'll suggest this and maybe get an argumental discussion going

 

...........Great! I would be interested to hear what is said on that, cause if you ever heard 'Iron Mike' speak you say to yourself WTF??