MESSAGE BOARD TOPIC FOR 10/11

[Comicality]

 

While fiction writing can be a very sweet and happy-go-lucky experience for both the writer and the readers...life is still...um...'life'. And as optimistic as we are, we all know that 'every' story doesn't have a happy ending.

 

Hell, some don't even have a happy BEGINNING. And very few hapy events between the two.

 

But when you've written a story out, and gotten your readers involved in the plot and emotionally invested in the characters...does it become literary suicide to end on a bad note? And I'm not talking about 'the hero sacrifices himself to save the whole world from destruction' bad. I mean a downright depressing finale, where the rest of the story gets ripped apart and the audience is left in tears.

 

What do you guys think about this? Can an author pull off a sad ending to a big story? Or is is a bad idea overall? Wha might work, and what's going too far? Let us know...

 

 

 

[Nephylim]

Well, I don't like my readers to get too complacent so I think that there have to be some sad endings or they will always expect good ones. It's certainly true that I don't give my readers an easy ride. There is plenty of angst and torture in the body of pretty much all of my stories and there are a couple with tragic endings. However, my sad endings are always led up to, in that they are not sudden and out of the blue and, I think, they are bitter sweet in that they leave readers sad but uplifted in some way.

 

I don't know if I would suddenly kill off a major character at the end... or in the middle of a story. Maybe I should try it and see what happens, although I think I might be hung.

 

 

Personally I don't have a problem with a character I have invested in dying in the middle of a story with something after to pull me on. And I don't mind death at the end of a story as long as it has meaning and it leaves me with something other than a sour taste in my mouth.

 

Rilbur's 'Guardians' is a fabulous example

 

 

Both of his main characters die in the last couple of chapters and it rips your gurs out but it is a fantastic end to a captivating story and it feels 'right'

 

 

 

I suppose the test is... does it feel right, is it significant for the story. I suppose it's like sex ... in fact death and sex go together well in my mind... if it's gratuitous it turns me off but if its an integral part of the story and 'fits' it's just fine.

 

 

[phana14]

YAY!!!!

 

I can go back to reading "Weeping Lily"! I already was POSITIVE that you wouldn't do that! *dries 'happy' tears*

[Agincourt]

What do you guys think about this? Can an author pull off a sad ending to a big story? Or is is a bad idea overall? Wha might work, and what's going too far? Let us know...

When I read this, what jumped to mind were two movies: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Chinatown.

 

These movies have been out long enough that I assume any sppoiler danger is long past.

 

William Goldman's Cassidy script portrayed the two outlaw buddies as seeming to have a pretty charmed life, even as they were being pursued by the crack Pinkerton team all across the southwest. WHen they miraculously escape and flee ot South America, it seems like their luck is holding out against all odds. Somehow, though, by the time of that final scene with the Bolivian cavalry, it becomes obvious that the road is coming to an end.

 

I have read that Robert Towne's script for Chinatown went through numerous iterations, because there was a lot of disagreement about the proper ending. In the final version, though, it becomes clear that Jake Gittes (the central character) has lost -- he has gone down to defeat, at the hands of the corrupt man he sought to expose and take down.

 

Both of these endings seemed to flow organically from the progression of the respective stories. Indeed, in some ways, it's hard to imagine different endings that would seem as plausible.

 

I also think of the aftermath of the final Harry Potter book ("Deathly Hallows"). Yes, Harry managed to defeat Voldemort, but at great cost. Of course, much of that cost was the product of the actions and/or self-sacrifice of others around him (including Dumbledore), but just as every kid of my generation had his heart ripped out when Bambi's mother was shot by hunters, readers of the Harry Potter series got their share of heartbreak as well.

 

The one unforgivable use of death and calamity (kind of like an Unforgivable Curse in Harry Potter) is where the author uses it to cheat. One of the most towering examples of misuse comes in Arthur Hailey's novel Hotel. This was one of his trademark "anthology" novels, where there were a number of different story lines involving different sets of people, all entwined in this one book because all of those people were guests, visitors, or employees at the fictional hotel. Hailey did an amazing job of spinning complex webs of intrigue, deception, guilt, blackmail, jealousy, and other story intricacies, and the reader could well wonder how on earth Hailey would manage to sort it all out by the end of the book.

 

What they didn't count on was him cheating.

 

A few chapters before the end of the book, a number of the key characters all step onto an ancient elevator in this hotel. It is at that moment that a mechanical part in this elevator chooses to fail. All of these key characters fall to their instant deaths at the bottom of the elevator shaft. Presto: Story problems solved. By brute force.

 

I never read anything else that Hailey wrote. After that stunt, he didn't deserve my attention.

 

I think that, like so many other things, it all depends. Certain genres of story call for satisfying, upbeat endings. Romance novels, Tom Swift or Hardy Boys books, all are expected to have positive endings. Mystery novels and thrillers, similarly, are expected to have the protagonist succeed.

 

But in other settings, there are certainly other stories to be told. If someone ever writes a work based on the life of Tyler Clementi, the young man who leapt to his death from the George Washington Bridge on September 22nd, that story is not going to have a happy ending. It really depends on what kind of emotional roller coaster ride the author chooses to take readers on.

 

A

Edited October 12, 2010 by Agincourt

[Tipdin]

Great question!

 

As alluded to, life has few enough happy moments. I often read to ESCAPE into a better place - at least for a while.

 

When I find authors who are very negative or concentrate on the dark side of life, (can you say King) I steer clear. I get enough horror in my real life.

 

Is wanting to be happy for a while THAT much to ask?

[StoriesByCirrus]

Sad endings *can* work, and when done well they can be incredibly effective. But there is a whole range of "negative" endings, and most of the ones I can think of retain at least a glimmer of hope and optimism to balance out the darkness.

 

Here are a batch of examples I can think of:

 

"Titanic" the movie - Here you have the classic love story tearjerker. Jack and Rose discover they love each, and then they get torn apart forever. Jack dies, but there are subtle suggestions that Rose went on to lead a long and happy life after that.

 

"His Dark Materials" (trilogy) - A variation on the set-up above. Will and Lyra almost literally go to hell and back to be together. In the process of they fall in love (and its quite a beautiful depiction of two teenagers falling in love for the first time), then discover that for all intents and purposes, that saving the world means never seeing each other again. I'd call this a "bittersweet" ending - the good guys win, but the price is heartbreaking.

 

"The Bartimaeus Cycle" (trilogy) - This is a "hero sacrifices himself to save the world" ending, so it might not quite count for Comsie's purposes, but it feels "right" in the context of the story. The hero of the story Nathaniel, is basically good, but also ambitious, arrogant, frequently selfish, and not always the most likable person in the books. The most notable thing about his sacrifice and the end of "Ptolemy's Gate" is not the world-saving, but its almost his first completely selfless act. His sacrifice allows Bartimaeus the demon to live.

 

The "Chaos Walking Trilogy" - Both the "Knife of Never Letting Go" and "The Ask and the Answer" end with what I would call the "defeat snatched from the jaws of victory" ending. In the first book Tod and Viola go on the road to escape Mayor Prentiss and his murderous army. Just when they think they've reached the safety of the town of Haven, they find that the Mayor has beaten them there and taken over the town. In the second book, Tod defeats the Mayor, only to be forced to make a deal to assist him when an army of the native Spackle advance on Haven. "Monsters of Men" simply has one of the most gut-wrenching second to last chapters of any book I've ever read. The less said, the better.

 

It's harder to find examples of stories which end in absolute defeat for the heroes (and still remain vaguely satisfying). "The Passage" takes what seems to be a happy ending, then completely undermines it with a very depressing epilogue.