Androgyny

[Skyline]

One thing I've noticed from what tet and others have been saying is that its all basically the same thing, taken from opposite sides of the fence.

 

From what I've read, my understanding is that Tet is saying people can be how they want, but society does have certain norms and ideals it tends to drive by, and that you won't be able to fit into those ideals all the time. I agree with this.

 

From what I've read, my understanding is also that lacey/jay/others are saying, they shouldn't/don't worry about being accepted, and that only through pushing the boundaries can things be changed. I also agree with this.

 

It is in these two opposing positions that I see a lot of parallels. To me the only difference seems to be, WHO (or what groups of people) exactly is changing their ideals. Should mainstream society be more accepting of the individuals desire to express themselves, or should the individual be more accepting of mainstream societies notions of the collective whole? When said in that form, I feel the issue is a lot more difficult to deal with, because it begs the question, who's priorities/interests are more important? Those of the supposedly free individual, or those of the masses (ala the one/few or the many conundrum.) Personally, I don't feel that it is my place to make such a decision, so I can't really delve into it much further than this. Just wanted to share my ideas on the matter, and hopefully show that pretty much, everyone is saying the same thing, just in different languages

 

Perhaps a solution might be found outside the box? Just some ideas to think about P:

[Marzipan]

One thing I've noticed from what tet and others have been saying is that its all basically the same thing, taken from opposite sides of the fence.

 

From what I've read, my understanding is that Tet is saying people can be how they want, but society does have certain norms and ideals it tends to drive by, and that you won't be able to fit into those ideals all the time. I agree with this.

 

From what I've read, my understanding is also that lacey/jay/others are saying, they shouldn't/don't worry about being accepted, and that only through pushing the boundaries can things be changed. I also agree with this.

 

It is in these two opposing positions that I see a lot of parallels. To me the only difference seems to be, WHO (or what groups of people) exactly is changing their ideals. Should mainstream society be more accepting of the individuals desire to express themselves, or should the individual be more accepting of mainstream societies notions of the collective whole? When said in that form, I feel the issue is a lot more difficult to deal with, because it begs the question, who's priorities/interests are more important? Those of the supposedly free individual, or those of the masses (ala the one/few or the many conundrum.) Personally, I don't feel that it is my place to make such a decision, so I can't really delve into it much further than this. Just wanted to share my ideas on the matter, and hopefully show that pretty much, everyone is saying the same thing, just in different languages

 

Perhaps a solution might be found outside the box? Just some ideas to think about P:

 

 

Western thinking is all about boxing things, trying to explain causes and reasons and forgetting the big picture. Eastern thinking sees everything more as a whole and connected all visible and unvisible.

 

To be an individual thinker and doer and still respect other peoples choices? I want to see myself as a part of the living, breathing thing called Earth with it's all habitants, it doesn't mean I have to agree with everyone else (I don't) and I don't expect them to agree with me (they don't). What I'm sayng is, I think humaity has room for all kinds of opinnions. Even if not as fast as in one generation to see, changes do happen in thinking and politics and values. What is minority today, might be hugely popular or even worshipped in 200 years. Think about it... women might rule the world, men dress in skirts, heterosexuality is not necessary and gay relationships are open and accepted. The aliens live amongs us, saving our planet.

 

Ouuuuuch... sorrrryyyyy.... Just twisted my brain trying to think outside the box. :lol:

[Eros]

I respect beauty in all forms, like some have said.

 

I find it interesting that some people assume they won't ever find someone of androgynous appearance attractive. Really, anything is possible. And I think it would be ignorant to say that it's not. "Long years ago", really maybe just a couple, there was this girl at my school named Keli. Keli always got made fun of, because of her somewhat masculine qualities. She had a deeper voice, for one, and often got made fun of because of it. Sadly, at first, I was weary of her, because I didn't understand her natural androgynous-ness... lol. I found it odd that she was less feminine than all the other girls, and her voice was deeper. But, upon getting to KNOW her a little more, and paying more attention, I began to notice her unmistakable beauty. And her voice! Holy shit, her voice. You know who's voice is also deep? Cher's. That's right. Keli's voice reminds me so much of Cher's. It's noticeably deeper, but noticeably beautiful.

 

So, once I took these things into account, I looked at Keli in a new perspective. I didn't think of her as ghastly, disgusting man-woman... (didn't in the first place, really), but I did think of her as a unique, beautiful girl. I appreciate her more now because of it.

 

So, I'm not going to say I don't like something because I don't understand it, like a lot of people did at my school. I think people need to look deeper into things before they open their mouths about it, or forming a conclusion about it. You may like what you find in the end

[comicfan]

Do you mean like Data?? He is kinda cute

 

 

But then again I do like a smart guy and Data is smart. Don't know if he is the the sort of androgynous look they are asking about.

[comicfan]

Overall I think it depends on the person. I've seen androgynous men and women. There is a fine line between that sort of could be either a man or a woman that allows the mind to guess and cross dressing. One thing to be dressed and have people wonder which sex it is and purposely cross dressing. I mean if you want to be a Drag King or Drag Queen that is one thing. If you are just able to keep people guessing because your clothing doesn't reveal and neither does your physical appearance than that is another. But ultimately it is the person that will attract or repel you.

[Prince Duchess]

He's in my signature. It should now be obvious what I think of androgyny XD I really think that it's the ultimate form of beauty. IMO. My friends have remarked upon me looking like a young boy or girlish. I personally don't mind being told that because it suits me, but it can look weird on some people. At the same time, weird is also a good look XD Anyway, a boy with girlish facial features is a massive turn on for me. It's just beautiful, man. Also, I'm not really into the masculine look. It's not for me at all haha I MEAN COME ON. HE'S BEAUTIFUL.

 

 

 

Ok, I had to get into the model for a minute. He is killing this picture like I keep thinking he has a full out blonde wig on when its simply his hair and hes giving me so much fish, but panned out hes giving me boy with long hair with fierceness.

 

 

Now back on topic, I like androgyny I believes it gives a person a lot mystique. And there are a lot of things about it that could be sexy. Also, I consider myself to be androgynous especially when my hair was longer I always got the ma'ams. And I've worn wigs before and i've ben told that I have a bit of a youthful face.

 

 

[Marzipan]

Andrej Pejic, gosh I adore him. I know he gets a lot of shit cause his looks from the female models who see him as serious competition. He models female lines too. I don't even wanna go there, how much he gets bad comments in general. I hope the good in his life overun all the negative.

 

I have a customer, a really sweet, beautiful 16 year old boy. When I first saw him I thought he was a girl, even his handwriting is feminine. I just want to hug and protect him too. I hope he will not be facing hatred beacause of his androgyny appearances.

 

 

 

[DragonFire]

Frankly, no.

 

I’m gay, I’m attracted to men. It does nothing for me seeing a guy wearing a dress or who acts like a woman, quite the opposite in fact. I have no issues if people want to do that, but personally it just doesn’t give me the horn.

 

Put him in a pair of jeans & a tee with no makeup on and we’ll talk again!

 

[Eros]

Frankly, no.

 

I’m gay, I’m attracted to men. It does nothing for me seeing a guy wearing a dress or who acts like a woman, quite the opposite in fact. I have no issues if people want to do that, but personally it just doesn’t give me the horn.

 

Put him in a pair of jeans & a tee with no makeup on and we’ll talk again!

 

 

 

I believe there is a difference between androgyny and cross-dressing. Androgyny is more so a natural, physical appearance where a person has qualities of both sexes. It isn't necessarily something forced, and the definition isn't ambiguous. Don't get confused.

[DragonFire]

I believe there is a difference between androgyny and cross-dressing. Androgyny is more so a natural, physical appearance where a person has qualities of both sexes. It isn't necessarily something forced, and the definition isn't ambiguous. Don't get confused.

 

 

I'm in no way confused, I know the difference and my point still stands. More often than not a guy will lean more towards the female side, the picture that started this topic is a prime example. All I'm saying is, is that it did nothing for me. That said I've always gone for the more rugged, masculine kinda guys anyway!

[Prince Charming]

I believe that sexual orientation is like a spectrum, with very few people in the world being completely, 100% straight or 100% gay.

Another note I'd like to make is that we should recognize beauty for what it is...it might not be attractive to us necessarily, but models like Andrej have an aesthetic appeal that I think is near universal for everyone! Masculine "men acting like men" and feminine women "acting like women" is something that society has outlined it for us...and I feel as though we shouldn't limit ourselves to anything. We should do whatever we want, and accept others because they're just doing what they want/ what makes them happy. Androgyny doesn't hurt anyone! (I myself am toeing the line of androgyny.)

[Marzipan]

I believe that sexual orientation is like a spectrum, with very few people in the world being completely, 100% straight or 100% gay.

Another note I'd like to make is that we should recognize beauty for what it is...it might not be attractive to us necessarily, but models like Andrej have an aesthetic appeal that I think is near universal for everyone! Masculine "men acting like men" and feminine women "acting like women" is something that society has outlined it for us...and I feel as though we shouldn't limit ourselves to anything. We should do whatever we want, and accept others because they're just doing what they want/ what makes them happy. Androgyny doesn't hurt anyone! (I myself am toeing the line of androgyny.)

 

I agree with you 100%

[Eros]

I'm in no way confused, I know the difference and my point still stands. More often than not a guy will lean more towards the female side, the picture that started this topic is a prime example. All I'm saying is, is that it did nothing for me. That said I've always gone for the more rugged, masculine kinda guys anyway!

 

I see.

At any rate, I understand. My own preference is more masculine, rugged, and boyish. But on occasion I find certain other guys attractive, like Bill Kaulitz lol

[MusicalAlchemy]

Personally, no. I think guys can look good with long hair, ditto that girls can look good with short hair, but beyond that androgyny doesn't appeal to me. I like women because they look like women... not because they might be a guy.

[Nephylim]

 

 

But I still don't like this model, Andrej, because one thing I totally hate, like really really really dislike, is men with long hair. I don't think any men with long hair is good looking, not even Johnny Depp. (but I'll bet he looks good in short hair. I just can't stand men with long hair.)

 

Noooooooo Don't diss JD Nooooo. He is going to be mine in the end MINE I tell you. He doesn't know it yet but he is in love with me and will eventually grow to realise it. Just give me another few years and some sharper pins

 

And as for men with long hair. I was thinking about it today and out of all the stories I have ever written I don't think there is one single lead character with very short hair... unless you count Sam in the Enigma stories. There are a a couple with shortish hair but I guess even that would be long in your book.

 

ISN'T IT GREAT THAT WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT???

 

Hey!

 

You have good taste. Ville Valo, my fellow Finn, is beautiful and I think HIM's music is amazing!

 

 

I TOTALLY agree

 

I'm skinny and bug eyed, but I can rebuild an engine at the same time.

 

 

And WHAT mirror are you looking in. GIve me the make and model so I can be sure NEVER to buy it.

[Michael9344]

Hmm, just watched a movie that made me want to elaborate my thoughts on this subject matter.

 

 

 

 

Hmm, to me, androgynous is all about looks, coz I can always here this model or that model is androgynous and that is good for the model. And I think the androgyny I'm talking about has nothing to do with how one act. I'll use the word "feminine" for those who act feminine.

 

So here are my thoughts: I hate feminine, but I can totally accept androgyny. This movie I just finished watching, the leading man acts really masculine, and doesn't have long hair, but there was this one shot of him that I really believe his facial features are actually androgynous. And I think he was cute too.

 

But I still don't like this model, Andrej, because one thing I totally hate, like really really really dislike, is men with long hair. I don't think any men with long hair is good looking, not even Johnny Depp. (but I'll bet he looks good in short hair. I just can't stand men with long hair.)

 

[BellaMuerte]

I found him somewhere online a few months ago, and I like him. But I have a thing for androgynous men. Or women, It's a fetish I have. I don't know any personally tho. sadly.

[heljustme]

Very interesting topic! I've always found androgynous guys very appealing because they don't stick to a definite role or behavior which, in Italy - the merry land of cavemen - always lead to treating women like something less and worthy only on the basis of their sexual attributes. I think androgyny is not only about features but also about manners and way of thinking.

I appreciate a lot the blurring of genders maybe because I was born and still live in this Country. I see it as a start to free people from labels that only lead to disrespect and consequent unease.

Eventually, I think that strong gender identity belongs more to social standards than to the real inner self. Of course, this is only my experience

[joann414]

I totally agree with you Heljustme. If a person is naturally beautiful, no matter the gender, or sexual orientation, they are just beautiful, and different people are attracted to different people, simple trait of humanity. That being said,what is inside of those looks is what counts.

 

It goes back to the ideal situation that if you met someone online that you liked enormously, loved to chat with, had so much in common it was eerie, and you finally get the chance to meet them................Do you run for the door if their looks are not what you expected, or do you remember all the wonderful chats, and how he/she was always there to listen and support you when you needed them?

 

Of course that is just MO

[podga]

I'm not certain beauty or how we judge it are absolutes. There are cultural and societal influences, there's our own understanding and learning, there's personal tastes, there are reference points.

 

When you ask me whether I find androgyny visually attractive, short answer is I don't. Then again, I don't find it unattractive either. It's just as a label. If you ask me whether I find a specific person attractive or not in his/her androgyny, I might respond yes or no, depending on what I think I'm looking at, and in what context I see it. To take it away from the context of people, I like interior design and there have been homes I have absolutely drooled over, but that I know I wouldn't want to spend an hour in as a guest, let alone live in. Same in the case of people.

 

I don't find this kid particularly attractive, but it could just be that I don't like this standard modeling pic of someone glaring at me (why? what did I ever do to them?) or fat lips. I also don't find him sexually attractive, because, to me at least, he barely looks legal, whether as a boy or a girl, and because my first crush was on Tom Selleck and that tends to my "type" if it's confined to the merely visual.

 

David Bowie in some of his disguises though, even though he looks nothing like Tom Selleck? Oh, yes please!

[AnimalMorph]

Dear lord... What have I stumbled myself into?

 

Just wanna tell you guys, this is a really interesting topic for me to read since I don't see or met androgynous people, like at all.

Not in junior school, not in high school, not in college, not in work, not even one in my small circle of friend. So it is really interesting to know how people generally look at this androgyny thing.

 

In a way, it almost the same as gay issue, no? Society in general have a norm and 'normal' attitude to uphold and when someone look just a bit different, they got talked about. When he/she differ greatly from what people call 'normal', more often than not they get shunned and cursed or worse. I believe this is called 'Peer pressure'.

 

It actually made me smile how various people respond to this topic. You are all very understanding, but then again this is a GLBT community and we are all on the same boat aren't we?

 

Anyway, enough of my rambling and back to the question.

 

Q: Don't you think he's gorgeous? He passes as a girl any time

A: Why yes, he is very much like a girl (this is a compliment... of sort) but umm, sorry but I don't think he's gorgeous as you say. I prefer your everyday ordinary guy with short hair but that's just me. Don't let my personal opinion cloud your judgement. :3

 

Q: So do you think androgyny is attractive in general?

A: No. Actually, the answer is quite the opposite. I don't really like 'looking' at this type of people and uh.. Attractive? Nope.

 

Q: Do you see physical androgyny different from inner androgyny?

A: Yes, although I'm not quite sure. I think inner androgyny means that the person can't help himself as he naturally acts androgynously no matter what he wear, his hairstyle, or his body frame and physical androgyny means that the person may act completely normal, only that he's face often mistaken as an opposite gender. Am I wrong?

[Y_B]

Sorry I'm not sorry that I like what I like and don't like what I don't.