Paternity

[Mark Arbour]

Interesting perspective and I am sorry for what your niece had to go through all around, but I think there are key differences. One is no matter how much we pretend, we treat 14 year old boys and girls very differently on things like this. Two, Will is known to not be an innocent or a virgin and it is known he is gay. I think that shapes how the dads would view the situation. They might be afraid to know what really happened and delayed to think things over.The police would have wanted to interview Will, but Robbie and Brad might not have wanted that. This family isn't just any family, the local police (and we don't even know what jurisdiction is conducting the investigation yet) wouldn't be able to run roughshod over the family like they do to others. If the police weren't allowed to see Will, and we know they weren't, they might have requested that he not be told. They like to interview people when they can catch them unawares. It is also unlikely that Malibu, which is covered by LA Sheriffs under contract to the City of Malibu, is the same agency conducting the investigation. That is most likely being done by Beverly Hills PD or LAPD. In either case they have zero power to demand to see Will. They need to go to court if they really wanted to force cooperation.

 

Overall my gut is I think Brad and Robbie were afraid to dig too deep and avoiding Will was the only way to not get into it.

 

 

 

No, I just think Michael is a punk ass bitch who doesn't like Will and he knew hurting Pat would hurt Will.

 

Very well put.

[Mark Arbour]

Lots of interesting stuff in this chapter.... is this the first mention of a pool at the Malibu homes? I think there are only four pools on the beach in the Colony....

 

And while I get poetic license, could Will really see all those things in Gathan's eyes from across the rink? I was hoping that they would stay broken up.... never did like that little tramp...

 

This part is a whole topic unto itself, "[/background] “Sometimes people who are being molested don’t feel like they have a choice. They feel trapped. Or maybe they think they want that to happen, even if it’s a bad thing.” "

 

I've seen this from both sides of the occurrences. I've known young guys who were in willing relationships with older guys and older guys in relationships with younger guys. Many times the younger guys have later felt preyed upon or manipulated, even when at the time, they told everyone around it was what they wanted. It is an interesting situation and so seldom turns out well for anyone.

 

I love Will, but he is being a bit unreasonable. What has he done to show his parents he is capable of making adult decisions for his life? If I had done a naked pole dance when i was 13, I'd still be grounded. Not many 14 year olds get a lot of input to major decisions about their lives.

 

Lastly, we still don't know what the police are doing or what part they played in the firing of Pat. The first person a police investigator would have wanted to talk to after the initial "victim" would have been Will*. The police would certainly have been in touch with Brad/Robbie and their lawyers and we don't know what advice or instructions were given or how Brad and Robbie reacted to the request. I am sure a few chapters are already written, but I'd love to see that police interview with Will when and if it happens.

 

 

*this is basically a repost of my "review" and I wrote it before reading the above post about what police investigators might or might not have done.

 

The pool's been there for a very long time. Since Man In Motion. Guess it must be one of the few places.

 

We'll assume that Will has very good eyesight. You just don't want Gathan having heterosex.

[Mark Arbour]

As I see it, "Paternity" is an exploration of father-son relationships between some pretty intelligent, financially secure and independent minded people. The dynamic has been done mostly with conversations and some introspection with not a lot of fast paced action. Actually, it has been a really compelling character driven story and for that I thank Mark Arbour.

 

I read this part and smiled, because that's exactly what this is. I've tried to bring a lot of that into the story, and bring it in from multiple age ranges.

 

1. We have that initial, glowing reaction to fatherhood, as experienced through Wade.

2. We have Wade's relationship with his own father, who he is rebuilding a bond with.

3. And we have Will's relationship with Brad.

 

Of the three, Will's relationship with Brad is going to be the most contentious, because he's a teenager, and that's when father-son relationships generally endure the biggest trials. You have two very strong-willed people, both with conflicting goals and responsibilities. Will is trying to be independent, he's trying to be 25 years old, which is absolutely normal for kids that age. That he doesn't have that capability won't really come into his mind, He'll see things through his own extreme biases, and he'll live his life based on what happened today. He'll be tough to reason with, and he'll be a pain in the ass to handle, until he finally goes through enough of a crucible, and matures enough, to settle down. These are not fun times. If you have never dealt with one of these individuals, they probably seem maddening to you. Why don't they listen? How can they be so irrational? He's being very unfair to Brad and/or Robbie. Yep. He is. But, he also has some points to make. One of the big issues is attention, and he's frustrated right now because he feels very alone and isolated. That's a classic teenage emotion.

 

The classic old-school solution to this is to lay down the law, and make the teen behave. That's what happens when it becomes a power struggle. That's when it gets ugly.

 

Much of what I've covered here, and will cover, is a much-dramatized reiteration of the conflicts I've had with my own son. How do you raise an extremely bright guy, who won't do what you want him to do, even when it's clearly in his own best interest? Do you abdicate responsibility and let him make his own decisions? (You may end up with pole-dancing). Do you try and reason things out with him? They aren't always (usually) real communicative. If I've done one thing in error, it's to have Will talk about his issues so much. Or do you just lay down the law, and say it's my way or the highway? Then you spark massive rebellion. You always will. Some kids internalize it, some externalize it, and some do both. It's real easy to talk about finding a compromise solution, and maintaining a nice balance, but that's just talk. Actually finding that, well, that's the real challenge.

[Hermetically Sealed]

Just pulling this from the reviews so I can comment.

 

I love this. You described a teenager perfectly. They're maddening. And they were like this when you were young, you and I are just so old we've forgotten. :-)

 

LoL Funny, but I am going to have to disagree. I was actually a pretty resonable kid, but then, as my parents like to rub in, I was "a very odd child." I was probably more like Wade or JP, and I am sure my friends found me to be more of a buzzkiller and a brown noser. I just honestly though it made more sense to follow rules, as they were there for a reason.

 

My oldest sister was probably more like Will. Everything was everyone elses fault, not her's. Our parents were so unfair and never let her do what she wanted to, and they treated her like a kid. Which is why she was taking the car for joy rides, having sex and doing drugs at 13; because she was soooo mature. Even now, after getting knocked up at 16, 3 divorces and 15 years of meth addiction, and more visits to jail than Lyndsey Lohan, it's still all our parents fault for being so unfair to her. Maybe that's why I can't stand Will. Even though I think he has some valid grievences, his attitude reminds me too much of the bs I had to deal with from her. Hopefully, he will turn out better.

 

ETA: I would also say, that most of my friends weren't nearly that bad. Oh they had "moments," but they almost always took advise from others pretty well. Even if it was in the sense of just making nice and bitching to their friends. I honestly can't recall any of them ever being more confrontational than whining. lol

Edited April 2, 2012 by Hermetically Sealed

[B1ue]

Oh thank goodness. I was afraid my rampage broke the thread.

 

Okay, explanation about Pat makes more sense. And I don't really blame Brad or Robbie for thinking Will might lie about sleeping with Pat. Although, nah. Will wouldn't cover it up. He'd have been bragging about it at every opportunity, not even wondering that anyone else might not approve. If Will doesn't think Max is too old for him (and that scene where he was watching a naked Max in the pool sort of suggests he doens't), Pat is certainly fair game. But if you don't really know Will, if you grew up in a time/cultural space where being gay had to be hidden, then I could see where you'd assume Will would not be totally forthcoming.

 

Doesn't look like they thought Will was being molested and the side-effects were turning him bitchy, but we'll see.

 

I have three "boos" to hand out.

 

First to Brad. At some point, he's going to have to admit he handled things wrong. Or at least suboptimally. Not necessarily to Will, though that might help, but to himself. I don't think he's there yet.

 

Second to Robbie. For backing down and getting pissed instead of ripping a strip off Will. I was hoping he'd say something along the lines of, "No, you are not going to try and make me feel guility about spending time with the man I love. I know you feel like we've neglected you, but we've been neglecting each other just as much. If you cannot understand that, I'm sorry. But it's going to happen anyways."

 

And the last to Will, for not wondering what Brad was talking about when he mentioned a young guy with an older lover. I know that's expecting a lot out of a kid, but he expects a lot of himself. And he expects others to expect a lot out of him.

 

And three yays.

 

A yay for Will. Nice way to stick up for your brother. And yourself.

 

Next for Kristin. Way to go after what you want.

 

Last yay for JJ, for just being so cute in this chapter. Not a whiny moment to be had.

 

I too am curious about Mike's motives. Hurting WIll aside, what does that benefit him? If he's trying for control over both Will and JJ, I suddenly don't trust him. And neither should Brad.

[PrivateTim]

I too am curious about Mike's motives. Hurting WIll aside, what does that benefit him? If he's trying for control over both Will and JJ, I suddenly don't trust him. And neither should Brad.

 

Wait... you live in So Cal and don't understand someone f'ing with someone's life, just for the sake of being a bitch, creating drama and hurting someone you don't like? Don't you ever go into WeHo?

[Mark Arbour]

Oh thank goodness. I was afraid my rampage broke the thread.

 

Okay, explanation about Pat makes more sense. And I don't really blame Brad or Robbie for thinking Will might lie about sleeping with Pat. Although, nah. Will wouldn't cover it up. He'd have been bragging about it at every opportunity, not even wondering that anyone else might not approve. If Will doesn't think Max is too old for him (and that scene where he was watching a naked Max in the pool sort of suggests he doens't), Pat is certainly fair game. But if you don't really know Will, if you grew up in a time/cultural space where being gay had to be hidden, then I could see where you'd assume Will would not be totally forthcoming.

 

Doesn't look like they thought Will was being molested and the side-effects were turning him bitchy, but we'll see.

 

I have three "boos" to hand out.

 

First to Brad. At some point, he's going to have to admit he handled things wrong. Or at least suboptimally. Not necessarily to Will, though that might help, but to himself. I don't think he's there yet.

 

Second to Robbie. For backing down and getting pissed instead of ripping a strip off Will. I was hoping he'd say something along the lines of, "No, you are not going to try and make me feel guility about spending time with the man I love. I know you feel like we've neglected you, but we've been neglecting each other just as much. If you cannot understand that, I'm sorry. But it's going to happen anyways."

 

And the last to Will, for not wondering what Brad was talking about when he mentioned a young guy with an older lover. I know that's expecting a lot out of a kid, but he expects a lot of himself. And he expects others to expect a lot out of him.

 

And three yays.

 

A yay for Will. Nice way to stick up for your brother. And yourself.

 

Next for Kristin. Way to go after what you want.

 

Last yay for JJ, for just being so cute in this chapter. Not a whiny moment to be had.

 

I too am curious about Mike's motives. Hurting WIll aside, what does that benefit him? If he's trying for control over both Will and JJ, I suddenly don't trust him. And neither should Brad.

 

I can see Robbie sticking up for their trip, and you're probably right about that, but just blowing Will off when he came home was so wrong, I think that sort of took all the wind out of his sails. Will's good at hitting him with smoking guns.

[methodwriter85]

Wait... you live in So Cal and don't understand someone f'ing with someone's life, just for the sake of being a bitch, creating drama and hurting someone you don't like? Don't you ever go into WeHo?

 

Hell, you'd learn all that just from being in a school theater production. *shudders*

 

I've never been interested in seeing WeHo- it feels like it'd be the QaF stereotype on crack. I wish I could find a gay enclave of nice, laidback gay guys who aren't inherently bitchy queens. Rehoboth Beach is kind of laidback, so there's always that....

Edited April 3, 2012 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Lies. I was the only gay guy in my high shool drama class, and I wasn't even out at the time. Granted, there were only about ten kids in the class anyways, six of them female.

 

And, uh, no Tim. I don't go to West Hollywood very often. I get quite enough drama at work; and even there I don't understand those that are dramatic to be dramatic. I find that they usually want something, even if that something is as simple as being so obnoxious that we'd all rather just work around them then try and get them to work their fair share of overtime.

 

As an aisde, is Mike gay?

[PrivateTim]

Hell, you'd learn all that just from being in a school theater production. *shudders*

 

I've never been interested in seeing WeHo- it feels like it'd be the QaF stereotype on crack. I wish I could find a gay enclave of nice, laidback gay guys who aren't inherently bitchy queens. Rehoboth Beach is kind of laidback, so there's always that....

 

Silverlake is where you go when you are tired of the drama of WeHo and then Palm Springs just before you die

[vaessavoy]

Gosh, it seems like I didn't communicate my point well at all. What I was really trying to say had nothing to do with police involvement. I totally get why that wouldn't happen in this circumstance and many others. The aspect that didn't ring true to me in the situation is that not only did Brad and Robbie not talk to Will to see how he was doing, not just that they completely ignored a fourteen year old who may have been sexually involved with an adult caretaker, but that it occurred to no one that that taking care of Will should be a parent's first priority in this situation. I just think the total abandonment of a potentially abused child would be a horrible thing for any parent to do and Brad and Robbie aren't horrible parents.

 

Plus, Will is certainly smart enough and manipulative enough to throw that in their faces. Something along the lines of, "You really believed something bad happened to me and totally ignored me for a week? Good thing I wasn't in real danger. I might never have seen you again! Or something else is going on entirely..."

That was my point.

[Mark Arbour]

Gosh, it seems like I didn't communicate my point well at all. What I was really trying to say had nothing to do with police involvement. I totally get why that wouldn't happen in this circumstance and many others. The aspect that didn't ring true to me in the situation is that not only did Brad and Robbie not talk to Will to see how he was doing, not just that they completely ignored a fourteen year old who may have been sexually involved with an adult caretaker, but that it occurred to no one that that taking care of Will should be a parent's first priority in this situation. I just think the total abandonment of a potentially abused child would be a horrible thing for any parent to do and Brad and Robbie aren't horrible parents.

 

Plus, Will is certainly smart enough and manipulative enough to throw that in their faces. Something along the lines of, "You really believed something bad happened to me and totally ignored me for a week? Good thing I wasn't in real danger. I might never have seen you again! Or something else is going on entirely..."

That was my point.

 

And it was a good one.

[PrivateTim]

Gosh, it seems like I didn't communicate my point well at all. What I was really trying to say had nothing to do with police involvement. I totally get why that wouldn't happen in this circumstance and many others. The aspect that didn't ring true to me in the situation is that not only did Brad and Robbie not talk to Will to see how he was doing, not just that they completely ignored a fourteen year old who may have been sexually involved with an adult caretaker, but that it occurred to no one that that taking care of Will should be a parent's first priority in this situation. I just think the total abandonment of a potentially abused child would be a horrible thing for any parent to do and Brad and Robbie aren't horrible parents.

 

Plus, Will is certainly smart enough and manipulative enough to throw that in their faces. Something along the lines of, "You really believed something bad happened to me and totally ignored me for a week? Good thing I wasn't in real danger. I might never have seen you again! Or something else is going on entirely..."

That was my point.

 

And to me it rang incredibly true that they completely ignored a fourteen year old who may have been sexually involved with an adult caretaker because knowing how sexually precocious Will is, they might not have been ready to broach the subject. This isn't a case of typical parents who suddenly discover their 14 year old son has a sexual appetite (even though fathers were one 14 year old boys) and think maybe a nasty old man robbed him of his childhood, innocence, blah blah blah. They are parents who know of his sexual involvement with older people and might have been avoiding him until they figured out what to do about the situation.

[centexhairysub]

And to me it rang incredibly true that they completely ignored a fourteen year old who may have been sexually involved with an adult caretaker because knowing how sexually precocious Will is, they might not have been ready to broach the subject. This isn't a case of typical parents who suddenly discover their 14 year old son has a sexual appetite (even though fathers were one 14 year old boys) and think maybe a nasty old man robbed him of his childhood, innocence, blah blah blah. They are parents who know of his sexual involvement with older people and might have been avoiding him until they figured out what to do about the situation.

 

I cannot disagree with you on this more strongly... I so agree with Vaessavoy. There is a major difference between thinking that your 14 year old had a consenting sexual relationship with an older authority figure, you might not like or approve but you would handle it one way; then being told that your 14 year old son was sexually abused by an authority figure that you put your trust in taking care of said child. I know that Will is sexually active but as some of his choices would suggest, he doesn't always make the best decisions in the heat of the moment. I am suprised that Brad and Robbie haven't had more of a discussion with him, but then again they never seem to be around or discuss anything with him lately...

 

I just think if you were told that an employee that takes care of your children in any capacity was being investigated for sexually abusing another child about the same age; you would be talking to your child and getting him to therapy to make sure either nothing happened or he was okay. You wouldn't just fire the employee or put him on leave or whatever and completely ignore the situation with the child.

 

I just really believe that Brad and Robbie's behavior is totally out of line on how this whole situation was handled. Maybe because I am older and have been responsible for children at different points in my life, but no truly responsible caretaker or parent would have behaved as Brad and Robbie did, no matter what they didn't want to face...

Edited April 5, 2012 by centexhairysub

[PrivateTim]

I cannot disagree with you on this more strongly... I so agree with Vaessavoy. There is a major difference between thinking that your 14 year old had a consenting sexual relationship with an older authority figure, you might not like or approve but you would handle it one way; then being told that your 14 year old son was sexually abused by an authority figure that you put your trust in taking care of said child. I know that Will is sexually active but as some of his choices would suggest, he doesn't always make the best decisions in the heat of the moment. I am suprised that Brad and Robbie haven't had more of a discussion with him, but then again they never seem to be around or discuss anything with him lately...

 

I just think if you were told that an employee that takes care of your children in any capacity was being investigated for sexually abusing another child about the same age; you would be talking to your child and getting him to therapy to make sure either nothing happened or he was okay. You wouldn't just fire the employee or put him on leave or whatever and completely ignore the situation with the child.

 

I just really believe that Brad and Robbie's behavior is totally out of line on how this whole situation was handled. Maybe because I am older and have been responsible for children at different points in my life, but no truly responsible caretaker or parent would have behaved as Brad and Robbie did, no matter what they didn't want to face...

 

I think the point you miss is that if Will had sex with Pat it would not have been "abuse". Brad and Robbie know Will well enough and know how strong willed he is that abuse was not going to be an issue. Had it been JJ, that might have been a different story.

 

You also can not state "no truly responsible caretaker or parent would have behaved as Brad and Robbie did" because truly responsible caretakers and parents behave all kinds of ways.

 

Some truly responsible caretakers and parents might have had their 14 year old in therapy after naked pole dancing and ejaculation in gay night club, some truly responsible caretakers and parents might have had their 14 year old in therapy after a kidnapping and near rape.

 

Some truly responsible caretakers and parents might certainly have ignored their precocious 14 year old while they figured out how to deal with the situation.

 

We still have no idea what conversations Brad and Robbie had together, had with Stef and JP, had with their lawyers, had with the police or had with anyone..

 

Brad and Robbie are not your typical, naive parents. They have their faults, I really object to their pot smoking around the kids and their apparent lack or concern that the kids smoke pot too, but that part is not atypical unfortunately. But they are much more attuned to Will's sexuality than most parents are to their 14 year olds sexuality and who have no idea what they are up to with their cellphones, webcams, chat rooms, etc.

 

Maybe because you are older you don't get what is going on with the youth.

[Daddydavek]

Even 'truly responsible' parents are not perfect and make mistakes and of course the spectrum of mistakes people make is truly remarkable. While I am the product of a different and older generation, and would have reacted differently and perhaps more confrontationally as the parent, I have never believed 'my way is the only way'.

 

Busy people prioritize and sometimes the children whom we should hold first do in fact get relegated to a lesser priority. It happens. The fact that Brad and Robbie did not immediately discuss this with Will (and it seems even Pat) is a fair criticism which Will has pounded them for. Repeatedly.

 

I for one can't wait to see what happens next.

[PrivateTim]

I for one can't wait to see what happens next.

 

Actually, I'd love to go back..... I'd love to know what DID go down when they found out about Pat, how they found out, what they did, who they called, etc....

[Canuk]

Actually, I'd love to go back..... I'd love to know what DID go down when they found out about Pat, how they found out, what they did, who they called, etc....

 

agree - it may just explain the Dopey Dads' reaction - at least in part.....

 

As far as parents making mistakes, as a parent I can confirm that, from my children's perspective, I rarely made a right decsion, however I think that I rarely compunded a bad decision with worse ones. And this is where I find Brad and Robbie so deficient....

[PrivateTim]

Yeah, they do seem to be slow learners for two very smart guys.

[methodwriter85]

Yeah, they do seem to be slow learners for two very smart guys.

 

Eh, they seemed like they were more along the lines of "treat your kids like they're your best friends" kind of parenting, which was VERY prevalent for my generation. In some ways it's much better than the whole 50's style of parental rearing, but the negative aspect is that it's pretty much impossible for kids who were raised that way to actually follow any kind of discipline.

 

I've kind of wondered how Claire and Jack's parenting style has been- I don't think Claire and Jack would be strict, but I also don't think John and Marie would get away with half of the crap that Will has been able to get away with. I would love to see Will even TRY to say the kind of stuff he's said to Jeanine, and say that to Claire. I think he'd be verbally bitchslapped so quick his head would spin.

Edited April 6, 2012 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

Well loved the new chapter of Paternity, not sure it moved the story along much but it was great... I saw like how Wade got Gathan to understand that he needed to talk to Kristen. Then Gathan acted so male and got himself hurt... LOL... Well I am sure it will all work out okay...

[Daddydavek]

Brad and Robbie dropped the ball again by not taking Will's calls about Gathan in Chapter 26 and set themselves up for another embarrassing confrontation in front of the family at the hospital. These are smart guys but they have not acted very smart lately and that makes me wonder are they just clueless or is there some other major distraction going on that hasn't come out yet?

 

Gathan getting his bell rung so hard is not a cool thing either. At least he got to the hospital and was checked out. Even so, brain trauma has effects, some short term like spotty or hazy memory loss for a day or so and long term effects as well as we now know.

 

Wade's plan for handling his mom was also mentioned and I was surprised that he told Sean to take the deal without dickering, at least some. By not doing so, that may warn Elizabeth to be even more careful as I suspect she no longer under estimates her son.

[Hermetically Sealed]

I think it a bit disingenuous to automatically assume they were ignoring Will. But then, people seem to be accepting Will's pov as being infallible. It is entirely possible that the two just missed the calls. Hell I miss calls all the time, even with the phone on me. There are times when I get voice messages and the phone never rang. We have no clue what has really been going on between Robbie and Brad, because all we have seen is circumstantial. It's either the angry and obnoxious little prince's view who has an axe to grind, and thus everything is going to be their fault, or Wade's view which is pretty uninformed as he is not involved. Are we really going to assume that there isn't a possible third view?

 

As I recall, when Brad has interacted with Wade through the story, he was getting pretty worn down from the problems with Jeanine. I think people are forgetting just how much else is going on that the two are dealing with. It's not all about Will, even if he wants it to be. I get that mistakes have been made, but Will is not exactly free of blame himself. I would be extremely surprised if what he sees is the full story.

 

Seriously, if I didn't know that CAP was free of supernatural elements, this would be the perfect setup for a Freaky Friday plotline (if not a better one than the horrible remake). lol

[methodwriter85]

Horrible remake? Freaky Friday was awesome! Jamie Lee Curtis, pre-drugged out Lindsay Lohan, and hottie Chad Michael Murray doing Travis's cover of "Hit Me Baby One More Time."

 

Another cool set-up would be for Will to travel back in time to 1976, when Brad was his age, and they just spend a day hanging out together and Will realizes that Brad understands him better than he thinks.

 

Anyway, when they mentioned the properties, did anyone else think about the gentrification that happened in both Philly and Washington, D.C. during the 2000's and think that Wade just might ride the wave of the real estage boom that's going to happen?

Edited April 6, 2012 by methodwriter85

[Hermetically Sealed]

Sorry, I love Jamie, but just didn't like the remake. The original was one of my favorite movies as a kid, so blame it on nostalgia. lol

 

While ot thinking about that instance in particular, that's pretty much what I was thinking him getting involved in.