Paternity

[B1ue]

I guess it is as others have stated that we all have an idea in our heads of what the people in the story look like and I have always placed Darius in the mode of most Persian/Anglos that I know and no one would ever mistakes them for Arabs.

 

This is the thing, that doesn't matter. The people most likely to give Darius, or anyone else, crap about their background won't be able to parse subtleties that fine. All they'll see is someone obviously not White, and possibly Middle Eastern. That will be more than enough.

[methodwriter85]

Get over yourself. I live in Los Angeles where being white means you ARE a minority, You have no fucking idea what discrimination I've experienced in LA, Micronesia or Polynesia or what I've experienced among people who've seldom seen a caucasian person before.

 

My reaction to who John would date was a reaction to who John has been presented as and that is someone shallow and immature.

 

I find your ignorance and assumptions incredibly offensive based on the very narrow life you've led in a 40 mile band of a country that spans almost 4,000,000,000 square miles. I know you mean well, but your very limited life experience limits you. Have you ever actually been to Manila? Do you even know what Pinoy culture is like and about?

 

Contrary to what you probably think about me, I wasn't born in some small Delaware town where I spent all my life. I was born in the Phillipines,and lived in Spain, Louisiana, New Jersey, Texas, Delaware, Maryland, and Western Pennsylvania.Yeah, that's a real "narrow" band of existence. And in terms of my actual life, I've been friends with punks. I've been friends with jocks. I've been friends with Conservative Christians, wiccans, and atheists. I've been friends  with affluent kids who have lovely memories of their trips to Europe, and friends with kids who were poor like me. I've known military guys, and I've known people who were peaceniks. I've been friends with people who worship at the altar of Corporate America(as Delaware IS the Corporation state), and those who were into Occupy. I've been friends with frat boys, and friends with theater types. At graduate school I was hanging out with both 19-year olds, and with thirtysomethings who had families. If there's one thing I haven't lived, it's a "very narrow life", because I've always lived with a curiousity about people, and their stories, and have always loved getting to know people from all different walks of life and places.

 

And again, I'm not saying that you haven't experienced discrimination. I'm saying that as a person who reads as "racially ambigious" to a lot of people, there are certain experiences that I've experienced(and what Blue experienced) that you haven't lived. Just like I haven't had the experience of being bisexual in a gay community that constantly says "bi now, gay later".

 

Finally. Think about what you said. Your response to my idea of John dating a beautiful, hot chick who looks like Amber Stevens(who's got that Beyonce kind of look that guys my age are going wild over) was to post a picture of a white blonde girl, on the grounds that John is shallow and immature. So a shallow and immature guy is only going to find blonds hot, because it'd take a mature and understanding guy to even want to touch a black woman? Is this what you're saying?

 

 B1ue, on 12 Feb 2013 - 23:20, said:

This is the thing, that doesn't matter. The people most likely to give Darius, or anyone else, crap about their background won't be able to parse subtleties that fine. All they'll see is someone obviously not White, and possibly Middle Eastern. That will be more than enough.

 

Thank you. That is what I'm trying so hard to get across, and something that I don't seem to be able to convey. THIS is the mindset that people who don't immediately read as "white" or "black" run into. They'll just make assumptions and go from there.

 

So what bothers me about Private Tim is going on about is that I'm apparently making assumptions about his life despite the fact that I've lived some "narrow life" apparently, is the idea that it's pretty much an assumption for a guy who is not brown, Persian, whatever to make the statement that Persians(or people mistaken for Persian) didn't experience racism(or even subtle racism) post-9/11. How exactly would you know that? I don't claim to know what it's like to be a sexy bisexual water polo player who grew up in Los Angeles and eventually became an attorney. That's not my sphere of experience, like this sphere of experience isn't Private Tim's.

Edited February 13, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Westie]

Finally. Think about what you said. Your response to my idea of John dating a beautiful, hot chick who looks like Amber Stevens(who's got that Beyonce kind of look that guys my age are going wild over) was to post a picture of a white blonde girl, on the grounds that John is shallow and immature. So a shallow and immature guy is only going to find blonds hot, because it'd take a mature and understanding guy to even want to touch a black woman? Is this what you're saying?

 

 

So what bothers me about Private Tim is going on about is that I'm apparently making assumptions about his life despite the fact that I've lived some "narrow life" apparently, 

 

OK, I don't want to get in the middle of a riot here, but you're effectively calling someone racist on the basis of... not very much.  I went through the thread "faces" and the only comment Tim made was "oh hell no".  He posted his view point with a picture of a very pretty white/blonde girl.  All this conveys to me is that he strongly disagreed with your view.  He didn't give reasons or further commentary.  EVERYTHING you have taken from it there has been extrapolated from that.  YOUR interpretation, not Tim's.  You posted a black picture, Tim posted a white one, and you automatically jump to the assumption that its about colour, and that may not be the case.

 

So when you say it bothers you that Tim's made some assumptions about you, in my mind you have made some about him and in doing so have made some very serious implications against his character.

 

I'm not here to defend Tim, but I think on the specific point about the picture, you have completely over-reacted.  

[B1ue]

I wonder if Michael is going to find himself dead too? No big loss.

 

Except anyone with a brain should put all these mysterious 'accidents' and deaths together and point the finger to the Family.

 

I'm curious if Will and JP's reactions are going to create problems. Frankly, I'm surprised at JP. He should have kept it together better (it's not like this is his first rodeo), though I'm not sure if he's ever been in close confines with his intended victims like we saw here. Wade will probably put it together, and possibly butt in. And then what?

 

If Michael keeps his mouth shut and doesn't try to use this against the family, I doubt they'll go after him. As you said, it would start raising more questions, and that's not what they need.

 

Unless...I'd have thought Michael, if he'd retained copies of the photos, would have started to pressure JJ for money. What if he tried the coach too? That might explain the apparent suicide, though that's just a wild thought. Most likely explanation is that the family had him killed.

 

One other bit I liked was the underreaction of the father-in-law. Of course he underreacted. He's probably wanted the guy dead for years. That's an in-law's job.

[Mark Arbour]

OK, I don't want to get in the middle of a riot here, but you're effectively calling someone racist on the basis of... not very much.  I went through the thread "faces" and the only comment Tim made was "oh hell no".  He posted his view point with a picture of a very pretty white/blonde girl.  All this conveys to me is that he strongly disagreed with your view.  He didn't give reasons or further commentary.  EVERYTHING you have taken from it there has been extrapolated from that.  YOUR interpretation, not Tim's.  You posted a black picture, Tim posted a white one, and you automatically jump to the assumption that its about colour, and that may not be the case.

 

So when you say it bothers you that Tim's made some assumptions about you, in my mind you have made some about him and in doing so have made some very serious implications against his character.

 

I'm not here to defend Tim, but I think on the specific point about the picture, you have completely over-reacted.  

 

 

First you agree with Tim, and now you're defending him?    We'll have to send you off with Jeanine.     Interestingly enough, on this issue, I think I'm actually sympathetic to both points of view.  Stunning.  

 

I'm curious if Will and JP's reactions are going to create problems. Frankly, I'm surprised at JP. He should have kept it together better (it's not like this is his first rodeo), though I'm not sure if he's ever been in close confines with his intended victims like we saw here. Wade will probably put it together, and possibly butt in. And then what?

 

If Michael keeps his mouth shut and doesn't try to use this against the family, I doubt they'll go after him. As you said, it would start raising more questions, and that's not what they need.

 

Unless...I'd have thought Michael, if he'd retained copies of the photos, would have started to pressure JJ for money. What if he tried the coach too? That might explain the apparent suicide, though that's just a wild thought. Most likely explanation is that the family had him killed.

 

One other bit I liked was the underreaction of the father-in-law. Of course he underreacted. He's probably wanted the guy dead for years. That's an in-law's job.

 

I suspect that JP's reaction was visible to Wade, but not noticeable to people who didn't really know him.  

[apjordan]

I'm a little late to the recent discussion of fraternities, but I'd be remiss not to remind everyone that not all fraternities offer the "traditional" fraternity experience (such as the one documented/described in Jwolf's "The English Year"). When I was an undergraduate 20 years ago, I was a member of a fraternity that was co-ed, dry, and 10-25% queer. Our pledge process was more of an orientation and included absolutely no hazing. It was a wonderfully terrific environment in which to come out. I went to a school where fraternities and sororities exhibited a wide spectrum of membership and social traditions. Some were overwhelmingly WASPy and others were incredibly diverse. (And since I've graduated, I know that spectrum has become even broader.) There are many fraternities there where I could see someone like Will (or Darius or JJ) fitting in very well. 

 

In contrast, the fraternities at the school I teach at now are almost all cookie-cutter animal houses. No racial diversity, no queers, all sons of privilege. Every school with fraternities and sororities has a different greek atmosphere. So, unless we already know what schools this generation of Schluter kids will attend, we really can't make any generalizations about whether or not they'd participate in the greek system. For the record, I think the school I attended as an undergraduate (MIT) is much more likely to be attractive to Will than the school I teach at now (large state university in the southeast).

[Hermetically Sealed]

I'm curious if Will and JP's reactions are going to create problems. Frankly, I'm surprised at JP. He should have kept it together better (it's not like this is his first rodeo), though I'm not sure if he's ever been in close confines with his intended victims like we saw here. Wade will probably put it together, and possibly butt in. And then what?

 

If Michael keeps his mouth shut and doesn't try to use this against the family, I doubt they'll go after him. As you said, it would start raising more questions, and that's not what they need.

 

Unless...I'd have thought Michael, if he'd retained copies of the photos, would have started to pressure JJ for money. What if he tried the coach too? That might explain the apparent suicide, though that's just a wild thought. Most likely explanation is that the family had him killed.

 

One other bit I liked was the underreaction of the father-in-law. Of course he underreacted. He's probably wanted the guy dead for years. That's an in-law's job.

 

Well, i think one thing to consider about JP, let's look at the 'incidences' he's actually been involved in; Dr. Jensen and Deke. He wasn't involved with Jeff's or Bitty's death, or Brian and Carson's. For him, this is kind of the first time he's met with family of those he's plotting against before things get messy. It's bound to be a bit upsetting for him.

[MJ85]

Well, i think one thing to consider about JP, let's look at the 'incidences' he's actually been involved in; Dr. Jensen and Deke. He wasn't involved with Jeff's or Bitty's death, or Brian and Carson's. For him, this is kind of the first time he's met with family of those he's plotting against before things get messy. It's bound to be a bit upsetting for him.

 

Probably that, and the fact that the death happened so quickly after meeting the family members (never mind still being around them as well!).

 

Unless...maybe it really was an accident that happened before any "planned accident" was able to be carried out? That would be a first, wouldn't it? The family "plans" for "an accident" to happen, only for God to beat them to it?

[PrivateTim]

This is the thing, that doesn't matter. The people most likely to give Darius, or anyone else, crap about their background won't be able to parse subtleties that fine. All they'll see is someone obviously not White, and possibly Middle Eastern. That will be more than enough.

 

Ummm, Persians and Arabs are white, just like Mexicans.

 

But that is yesterdays news.

 

I think it will turn out that Brad didn't have the skating coach whacked, that it was either a happy coincidence, suicide or someone else took him out.

 

Feel bad for the mother/wife, but I suspect she knew or had suspicions and I really bet her father knew, maybe not knew to a certainty, but knew in his heart, but couldn't make the accusations without proof.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm a little late to the recent discussion of fraternities, but I'd be remiss not to remind everyone that not all fraternities offer the "traditional" fraternity experience (such as the one documented/described in Jwolf's "The English Year"). When I was an undergraduate 20 years ago, I was a member of a fraternity that was co-ed, dry, and 10-25% queer. Our pledge process was more of an orientation and included absolutely no hazing. It was a wonderfully terrific environment in which to come out. I went to a school where fraternities and sororities exhibited a wide spectrum of membership and social traditions. Some were overwhelmingly WASPy and others were incredibly diverse. (And since I've graduated, I know that spectrum has become even broader.) There are many fraternities there where I could see someone like Will (or Darius or JJ) fitting in very well. 

 

In contrast, the fraternities at the school I teach at now are almost all cookie-cutter animal houses. No racial diversity, no queers, all sons of privilege. Every school with fraternities and sororities has a different greek atmosphere. So, unless we already know what schools this generation of Schluter kids will attend, we really can't make any generalizations about whether or not they'd participate in the greek system. For the record, I think the school I attended as an undergraduate (MIT) is much more likely to be attractive to Will than the school I teach at now (large state university in the southeast).

 

i was actually teaching at a large state university during the years Will does his undergrad years.  My experience was similar to the school you're at now.  I have a feeling that the culture we're referring to (cookie-cutter animal house) is probably prevalent in state universities in the Midwest, South, and Southwest.  

 

MIT is always attractive. 

[centexhairysub]

I think it will turn out that Brad didn't have the skating coach whacked, that it was either a happy coincidence, suicide or someone else took him out.

 

Feel bad for the mother/wife, but I suspect she knew or had suspicions and I really bet her father knew, maybe not knew to a certainty, but knew in his heart, but couldn't make the accusations without proof.

 

I agree completely...  I think everyone is jumping the gun on the coaches death.  It has been only five days since JP/Brad/Robbie/Stef/Will found out about the sexual abuse.  Arranging the death of someone like that and being able to cover yourself would take time and I am not sure that five days is enough to do it right.  I think JP and Will were reacting to meeting the wife of the man that is abusing JJ and nothing else.  I doubt anyone else that was there would even have noticed JP's reaction except Wade and since he knows nothing about the abuse he really has no way to link that momentary reaction to anything that is happening. 

[B1ue]

Ummm, Persians and Arabs are white, just like Mexicans.

 

Dude, give it up. You know what I meant, and how I meant it, or you wouldn't have claimed Whites were a minority in Los Angeles. And that's not exactly an accurate statement. I, personally, represent all four racial groups. Nor am I the only Hispanic able to make that claim. Slaves, and the breeeding programs associated with that institution, were not exclusive to the Antebellum South, though unlike many African-Americans I don't truly feel affected by that history beyond knowing why I'm darker than pure Ute-Aztec racial stock.

 

In counting the instances in which JP has corrected behavoir, I was also including the various students JP has "educated" thoughout the years. It's a toss-up, and depends on the person, if torturing someone and killing someone is more traumatic (to the torturer or killer), and JP did that himself rather than at a remove.

 

Though I accept the explanation that it was Wade's greater insight into JP that allowed him to see that reaction. It seems reasonable enough.

[methodwriter85]

Dude, give it up. You know what I meant, and how I meant it, or you wouldn't have claimed Whites were a minority in Los Angeles. And that's not exactly an accurate statement. I, personally, represent all four racial groups. Nor am I the only Hispanic able to make that claim. Slaves, and the breeeding programs associated with that institution, were not exclusive to the Antebellum South, though unlike many African-Americans I don't truly feel affected by that history beyond knowing why I'm darker than pure Ute-Aztec racial stock.

 

 

       I think this conversation should be concluded by yourself, myself, and Private Tim dancing around to "Everybody's A Little Bit Racist".

 

 

       Now, that's enough of that. Let's all hug it out, and then go on a burn ride down to the beach. :2thumbs:

 

       (That was the awesome part about going to my high school- you'd hear people break out into Broadway musical songs.)

Edited February 14, 2013 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

When the five met, they said that Brad or whoever would not do anything with out them knowing about it. So either Brad has done it and not told the others. This was an accident, a real accident. I think the shock of meeting the family, having them in your home took JP and Will back a bit. I'll have to read this over again but why didn't Stef react? My quess is that Brad didn't do this on his own. Either someone else did or it was a real accident. An act of God? Maybe this family is more religious than we thought, or it has alot more power just wishing something and making it happen.

[Mark Arbour]

When the five met, they said that Brad or whoever would not do anything with out them knowing about it. So either Brad has done it and not told the others. This was an accident, a real accident. I think the shock of meeting the family, having them in your home took JP and Will back a bit. I'll have to read this over again but why didn't Stef react? My quess is that Brad didn't do this on his own. Either someone else did or it was a real accident. An act of God? Maybe this family is more religious than we thought, or it has alot more power just wishing something and making it happen.

 

When they talked about not doing something without discussing it, they were talking about the overall action, not the details.  I don't think Will, or any of them, planned to micro-manage how it was done.  It was simply that they all agreed to off the coach that was the key decision. 

[rjo]

Honestly, I was hoping it was just an accident. Not of the family';s doing. If that is not so, ( you didn't really say one way or the other) it will be hardest on Will. Once the family has met Davey and Danny I doubt that Davey and Danny will not be coming back. If JP showed a crack ( only Wade saw it ) how much more will Will? JP has a departmentalized mind does Will? You can rationize that by killing their father you have saved the boys. However, in the long run I think that runs thin. Guilt is a force which plagues this family, from JP to Brad, Isidore to Robbie. JJ will have his share now too. Can Will bare the heavy weight? He is a strong kid tougher than some would think but still he cares a lot about people. He is still his great grandmothers (Tonto's ) great grandson.

 

As for Michael, I think he should not get off scot free. He let this happen, Made it worse. The only good is that the pictures he took brought the evil to light. Maybe lost at sea could be his fate.

Edited February 15, 2013 by rjo

[MJ85]

What if Michael was the one who was "offed", and that's why we haven't heard from him all this time, while it's the coach's death that was an unplanned accident?

[methodwriter85]

"All this time"? Norway happened only about six weeks ago in CAP-time. Just sayin'.

 

I can't see Will being okay with whacking off family enemies like JP and Brad are. I just can't. He's got way too strong a sense of right and wrong for the murky "greyness" of what his father and grandfather deal in. I mean, Will could change, but I feel like if Will's being set up as the next Tonto, that's going to be a strong, core characterstic. He might grow up to see some grey, but not when it comes to going all Sopranos.

Edited February 15, 2013 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

evil hat on:

 

Michael was used to the finer things in life. It suddenly got taken away from him. What to do?

 

He has blackmail material. Blackmail the coach since he's an easy target. Well, easier then going against the family.

 

Coach freaks out and commits death by truck.

 

Michael is still broke.

 

/hat

 

I think this was an "accident".

[PrivateTim]

Dude, give it up. You know what I meant, and how I meant it, or you wouldn't have claimed Whites were a minority in Los Angeles. And that's not exactly an accurate statement.

 

Just so we are clear on the facts, whites including Hispanics who identify as white are only 48% in LA, whites, not including Hispanics are only 28% in LA.

 

 

 

From the review section, me:

 

I still don't feel bad for Matt. He has no right to act as he did to Wade. He is entitled to his feelings, but not to let the resentment bleed over.

 

Reply from Mark Arbour (author)

 

 

I really see Matt's point of view on this one.  The guy has taken a pretty big ego hit with this whole thing.

 

I don't care that Matt's ego took it hit it is his fault. That is the risk you run when you want your cake and you want to eat it too (open relationship). You risk your partner finding someone better.

[sat8997]

I don't care that Matt's ego took it hit it is his fault. That is the risk you run when you want your cake and you want to eat it too (open relationship). You risk your partner finding someone better.

 

There you go.

[methodwriter85]

I do wonder if there's ever going to be a gay couple that is successfully monogamous in this story. I do hope that happens with at least one potential couple in this new generation.

 

I think Will thinks that he could be successfully monogamous, but he's destined to be a slut. I could see JJ, if he were really in love and committed, being able to.

[mmike1969]

I do wonder if there's ever going to be a gay couple that is successfully monogamous in this story. I do hope that happens with at least one potential couple in this new generation.

 

I think Will thinks that he could be successfully monogamous, but he's destined to be a slut. I could see JJ, if he were really in love and committed, being able to.

Max and Father Tim?

[apjordan]

Anyone who doesn't care about statistics or general number nerdery should just skip this post...

 

I'm probably the only person who read Private Tim's demographic data on Los Angeles and immediately thought "if only 48% of LA residents identify as white (including Hispanic whites), what do the other 52% identify as?" Looking up that answer reminded me of the central problem of data collection about race and ethnicity: such data are collected based on self-reporting, but classified following a scheme that is at odds with how many people (especially people of Hispanic origin) interpret the terms "race" and "ethnicity" with respect to their self-identities.

 

Here's the breakdown for the City of Los Angeles from the 2010 US Census. I'm listing the primary race/ethnicity combinations, by percent of total population:

 

White, not Hispanic: 28.7

Some Other Race, Hispanic: 23.5

White, Hispanic: 21.1

Asian, not Hispanic: 11.1

Black, not Hispanic: 9.2

 

These five categories represent over 93% of the population. No other race/ethnicity pair exceeds 3%.

 

In interpreting these categories, it's important to remember that the US Census has the following official race categories: White, Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, Some Other Race, Two or More Races. Note that none of these is "Hispanic or Latino." Hispanic origin is considered an ethnicity, not a race. But you can see that 23.5% of the LA population identified as "Some Other Race" and "Hispanic." This is the disjunction between how people identify and how the demographic data is reported. The vast majority of these individuals chose "Some Other Race" because they consider their *race* to be "Hispanic." But among the official categories—if "Some Other Race" were not an option—a significant number of them are almost certainly "White."

 

So while it is true that the population in LA that *identifies* as white is a minority (it's 49.8% in the 2010 Census, but most estimates for 2011 or 2012 have the 48% figure Private Tim gave), the number of people in LA who are racially white (in the sense of being predominantly Caucasian) is really more in the vicinity of 70%.

 

(edited to correct a spelling error)

Edited February 16, 2013 by apjordan

[B1ue]

I don't care that Matt's ego took it hit it is his fault. That is the risk you run when you want your cake and you want to eat it too (open relationship). You risk your partner finding someone better.

 

That was almost my exact reaction to this situation. I'll have to re-read the opening chapters of this story, but up until this I'm not sure Matt really got Wade's side of that problem. Oh, intellectually, perhaps. But I think, at base, he was more or less humoring Wade, because he couldn't imagine a situation where their needs would actually conflict.