Paternity

[Northern Dutch Guy]

Jeff being a 'spring off' from someone in the Hayes family seems logical.

In (almost?) every book of the CAP Saga they turn up.

 

I would be more amazed (I think it would be a nice twist) if this time it was coming from Brad's familyline. The family they fought so hard in Millenium.

 

Whatever Mark has in for us in the next chapters he knows how to keep us looking out for next ones!

Love your Stories Mark and especially the way you can combine facts from earlier stories with the new ones

[centexhairysub]

Since, Mark has said that Jeff isn't going to be Ryan's half brother; I vote for Stef to be the father.  You know Stef did sleep with a few women back in the day, maybe one of them had a kid, did not know who Stef was and gave the child up for adoption...

[methodwriter85]

    Yeah, that would have been in the early 1960's. Hot Jeff would have been born in 1981 or 1982.

[JLK9N]

I think it was this latest chapter where Will described a sound Jeff made as "snaughed."  Well, we all know what family THAT sound belongs to.

 

My .02 on the heritage of HJ.  

[methodwriter85]

  Not necessarily, though. Roger "snaughed", and he wasn't a Hayes. And Matt Carrswold is biologically a Hayes, but he doesn't snaugh. I don't think any of the characters have described Matt as snaughing.

[Daddydavek]

Hot Jeff is a minor character and I have no clue as to why everyone is so worried about his paternity.....

 

The latest chapter is up and the conversation between Will and JP is all about the concept of paternity in the day to day problems of being a parent.   Interesting summation of the whole idea of parenting with insights into what that can mean all woven seamlessly into the plot line. 

[PrivateTim]

I'm a little bummed that Noah isn't gay, but I like the idea of Will having a straight friend and the idea of kids being friends with lots of people and not hanging in cliques, the gays in one group, the band kids in another, the jocks, the soc's (as in 'socials') and so on.

 

I do hope there is a little drama left

[MJ85]

I on the other hand am not disappointed that Noah isn't a "love interest" for Will at all. Sorry, but that just seems like too obvious a choice.

 

On the other hand, Noah talked about where he was "flirting" with Ferris, and that makes me think of the decade to come, where more and more guys can seemingly appear to not be straight even when they really are. We're two years away from Queer Eye and the "metrosexual" trend to come, but putting all things like that aside, I wonder - how soon into the decade did it really start to show where guys could...walk such a fine line, so to speak? I guess, what I'm trying to say is, is Noah more of a sign of things to come, or is he more of just an anomaly for around 2001?

[methodwriter85]

I on the other hand am not disappointed that Noah isn't a "love interest" for Will at all. Sorry, but that just seems like too obvious a choice.

 

On the other hand, Noah talked about where he was "flirting" with Ferris, and that makes me think of the decade to come, where more and more guys can seemingly appear to not be straight even when they really are. We're two years away from Queer Eye and the "metrosexual" trend to come, but putting all things like that aside, I wonder - how soon into the decade did it really start to show where guys could...walk such a fine line, so to speak? I guess, what I'm trying to say is, is Noah more of a sign of things to come, or is he more of just an anomaly for around 2001?

 

Adam Phillips has talked at length about his observations in guys who "walk the fine line", and how clearly straight or clearly gay starts to become blurred, so I think Noah is representing a little of that. Gathan especially represented the guys of the 2000's who clearly did abscribe to any sexual labels to themselves...Noah seems more along of the lines of straight guys who can flirt around with gay guys and not be uncomfortable with it. I  called it "jokingly gay"...I noticed it a lot in 2003, but I'm sure it was around in 2001, especially considering these people are living in a liberal area of California.

 

Finally, I really like Noah being straight, because I think Will strikes me as someone who would mostly have straight friends and not relate that much to stereotypical gay guys. (The exception being JP and Stefan.) That was true of my experience in college- I had some gay friends, but all of my very good friends in college were straight. The big bulk of the openly gay kids at UD were of the shallow, "I can't believe you wore those shoes with your hair!" variety. That's why I was shocked when I went to IUP and met gay kids who could carry on conversations about things that went beyond hair and clothes.

 

Tim, I really agree with you about liking the social mixing. In my high school experience, social lines weren't played out along the lines of the popular head cheerleader and the quarterback and their stuck-up friends made high school hell for everybody else. There were bitches and stuck-up people at my school, but for the most part, everybody just did their own thing, and social groups would often mix.

 

I like that Will's high school experience is apparently going to reflect that more instead of Brad's high school experience, which seemed very much of the whole "rich, good-looking kids terrorize the poor, normal-looking" kids that we see so much of in Hollywood movies about high school. It does happen (Adam Phillips's Cross-Currents definitely described his school as having the vibe where the rich good-looking kids ruled everything), but there are other kinds of experiences, too.

[methodwriter85]

I don't think JP is thinking of dynastic succession with this generation, but I think he sees in Will a bit of a kindred spirit.

 

I'm not entirely sure how well the idea of "one ruler" is going to work with the Will/JJ/Darius/Marie/John generation...when Crampton Construction was the family company and everyone was concentrated at Claremont and later on at Escorial, it was one thing, but this seems like a generation with wildly different interests that could and should take them all over the globe.

 

It might become like what happened with the British monarchy, where there's a ceremonial "head", but all the real decisions are reached by Parliament. I can see Will as a leader, but I can't see him as the kind of leader who would expect everyone to follow his orders, like the way Brad does. I think it'd be more a republic and less of an autocrat feel to it.

 

Mark, are you familiar with the story of the Du Pont family? I think it's an interesting model to read about...at one time, they were very much in the mode of that French family mode, especially as they were building their gunpowder empire in the United States. They had what constituted as a "chateau country" in the Brandywine River Valley, and had the kind of regional power the Cramptons seem to have. But that feeling diminished as the Du Pont Company became less and less of a family run company, and more of a global company after the 1990's.

 

Of course, this is something that wouldn't really be an issue until Will and the gang are at least in their 30's, and that's not til the mid-2010's, and I'm not sure we're going all the way up there, unless Mark has this burning desire to explore Riley's teenaged rebellion circa 2015.

Edited March 7, 2013 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

Mark, the scene with JP and Will was just masterful.  I really find that at least for me, JP is still the heart and soul of the CAP saga.  While others may act as narrator, he is still the one that holds the most intrest for me.  I thought the way you navigated the conversation between them was exceptionally well done.  For JP to open up to Will to the extent that he did; showed how much hope and faith he has in Will.  While I can see the series surviving JP's death; if you are still interested in writing it, his loss will be hard to overcome.

 

I have said it before, and of course, will say it again; Claire is the only person at the moment that is capable of leading the next generation after JP goes to his great reward arguing with Tonto...  Brad might be qualified to be Grand Marshall and lead the troops into battle but the last few stories in the saga have showed why he is clearly not the one to lead the next generation.  I could see that generation holding in the mold of the current one, but do have to agree it is harder to see Matt/Wade/Darius/Will/JJ/Marie/John/etc one being molded in the same manner.

[methodwriter85]

I could see that generation holding in the mold of the current one, but do have to agree it is harder to see Matt/Wade/Darius/Will/JJ/Marie/John/etc one being molded in the same manner.

 

     I can't picture Marie as written so far ever going along with anything she didn't agree with because her cousin said so. I really can't.

 

     Will does feel like a leader, but not in a autocratic way- more like a Democratic way. He had to work and negotiate with Darius on the issue of Jeanine's care- I don't think Darius would have responded if it were more like an edict.

 

     Of course, given that Brad's generation is only approaching their late 40's/early 50's NOW (and are still in their 30's in CAP time), it seems incredibly premature to wonder about the dynastic succession for WIll's generation, as the oldest of them would in 2012 only be barely out of their 20's. It would make a lot of sense if the mold kind of ends with Brad's generation, though.

 

I don't think JP is thinking of dynastic succession with this generation, but I think he sees in Will a bit of a kindred spirit.  Will has his same desire to succeed academically, and would seem to have his same thirst for knowledge.

 

      I agree that it's nice that we seem to be getting the "Academic" back into CAP. Brad and Robbie went to Ivy League schools and are very bright, but neither of them seem to have the same level of academic spirit or thirst for knowledge (YES, I KNOW THEY SENT THEIR KIDS TO HARVARD-WESTLAKE, PRIVATE TIM. I STILL THINK IF THEY WERE HARD-CORE ACADEMICS IT WOULD HAVE COME ACROSS IN THE STORY LIKE IT DID FOR J.P. IN HIS TWO STORIES, OR HELL, LIKE IT DID FOR ANDY SHARPE IN CROSS-CURRENTS EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ALSO A MAJOR PARTY BOY) that Will's been displaying. The marine biology lesson from Will remains my favorite moment from him.

Edited March 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Canuk]

Adam Phillips has talked at length about his observations in guys who "walk the fine line", and how clearly straight or clearly gay starts to become blurred, so I think Noah is representing a little of that. Gathan especially represented the guys of the 2000's who clearly did abscribe to any sexual labels to themselves...Noah seems more along of the lines of straight guys who can flirt around with gay guys and not be uncomfortable with it. I  called it "jokingly gay"...I noticed it a lot in 2003, but I'm sure it was around in 2001, especially considering these people are living in a liberal area of California.

this "walking the fine line" gay/straight thing was something that was brought home to be really clearly between my schol yaers and my sons school years.  so we are talking the difference between late 70's and mid 90's to 2004(ish). late 70's you were gay and sufferedfor it or staright and bosted about conquests, the 5 years either side of the millenium boys seemed to simply talk about conquests - the transformation amazed me. I would have loved to know what caused this.....  whatever it was I think Mr Arbour has captured it beautifully!

[methodwriter85]

    Well, this is a generation of guys who grew up when there were openly gay celebrities like RuPaul, Elton John, Melissa Etheridge, Ellen Degenres, etc etc in the 1990's. There were books like Heather Has Two Mommies getting published when they were children.They're too young to really remember the AIDS epidemic, which did cause a lot of homophobic backlash in the 1980's and early 1990's. The internet began to rise when they were in middle school, which allowed them to get support and make connections to people who were like them. When they were in middle school/high school, gay civil unions were allowed in Vermont. By the end of their teen years/early 20's, gay marriage was allowed in Massachusetts. This is in pretty stark contrast to Brad's generation, when being gay was literally equated with "Got Aids Yet?"

 

      It translates to having a generation of young gay men who were much more open about being gay than in previous generations, and at younger ages, with people coming out not just in college but in high school and even middle school. (I came out when I was 15 and started making my first gay friends in 9th grade.I think for older guys, that would seem awfully young.) Instead of cocooning themselves in  gayborhoods, they felt comfortable and safe enough to be openly gay with their friends, which in turn means that more straight guys have had openly gay friends, or at least absorbed the message that it's politically correct to be tolerant of gays. (Which is something that really didn't start getting pushed until the 1990's.) That in turn means that these straight, or mostly straight, guys felt more comfortable exploring the other side of themselves, whether it's just harmless flirting to full-on sexual encounters with other men.

 

     I think there's even a little bit of difference between people Matt and Wade's age (born circa 1980) and Will's age (born in the mid/late-80's.) I remember talking once to JWolf, the author of The English Year and The List. He had a hard time understanding Andy's angst in Cross-Currents. (And to be honest, so did I when I first read it.) And I think the reason why he had a hard time understanding Andy's angst was because he had never absorbed the kind of inner-homophobia that Andy had, because JWolf grew up with messages that were fairly positive about gay people. Adam Phillips and JWolf grew up in roughly the same area, with roughly the same kind of white suburban middle class background, but there's about a 9-year difference between them, and that seems to have made a big difference.

 

      And in turn, I've noticed differences between my peers and the current college kids, born in the early 90's, who are even less homophobic than my peers were.

Edited March 9, 2013 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

Honestly what you said Jeremy gives me hope a lot of hope for the future. In November we had two amendments to the Minnesota Constitution One voter ID, which would have limited voting for students and seniors and the Marriage amendment which would made it much harder for gay marriage. Both were rejected by the voters The voters also removed the republican majority and this term we are even thinking of making gay marriage legal. This new generation doesn't judge people race, sex and gay or straight People are just people. And that gives me ho[e.

[centexhairysub]

I tried to leave a chapter review but it would never take then it took a blank one...  AHHHHH....

 

I thought this was a great chapter.  I really loved all the drama and interaction at the party.  I thought that Will and the others handled things really well with both Brad/Robbie and JP/Stef.  I can totally see where JP is coming from and why he locked the gates based on the past.  Sometimes ghost can haunt us in the most suprising ways, or just when we remember the past and think of choices made or not made. 

 

Will seems to want one person ever so often; then he seems to not want to be tied down but to be able to enjoy all the possible experiences that he can find.  When you are that age, it is never easy to know your own mind much less your own body...

 

I think Will handled the situation with Jeanine and Maddy just perfectly.  You can often not tell what someone undergoing those treatments will react to.  With Jeanine making that kind of connection, if even a momentary one, with  Maddy; those supporting her and her physicians need to be aware of it.  They can try and build on that connection.

 

Another great chapter Mark; I think I am in love with how your mind works....

Edited March 11, 2013 by centexhairysub

[methodwriter85]

    Yeah, I loved the locking the gates and them being incredibly firm on no one being allowed to drive after drinking was a really nice ode to what happened to the family in October of 1980.

 

    I liked Will kissing guys openly at the party...I remember when Mark was writing party scenes for Be Rad, I thought it was odd that he didn't show two girls kissing each other to try and turn the guys on. That was such an integral feature of my observances at parties. He replied that girls didn't kiss each other at (straight) parties in 1980, and I'm betting that sure as hell didn't happen with two guys, either. By 2000, you definitely had girls kissing each other at parties, mostly to get the guys turned on and get a crowd around them, and a couple of years later, you'd start to see guys kissing each other at parties, although not to the same degree. That the kissing happened (but there was somewhat of an negative reacton) showed the transitioning going on in the first half of the new decade...gay guys were comfortable enough to kiss at parties because they're not worried about getting bashed, but at the same time...you didn't have a crowd of girls clapping and cheering them on while taking video to post onto YouTube, which became a thing during the second half of the 2000's.

 

      Finally...9 months, 11 days remain...

Edited March 11, 2013 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

Marie comes across more in this story. It is good to see that she is not a push over. One of the things I thought was the most interesting was Brad and Robbies reaction to drinking compared to Brad's drinking to High School. As for the gates being lock some wounds never die. In Cap years it was 20 years ago that Billy died. But in the mind of the family only like yesterday. Honestly , if these kids are going to drink, isn't this the best place. Safe, and not judgemental.

 

It seems like most of Mark's chapters are in two or more parts. The second part gives me a great deal of hope. Honestly, I almost wrote Jeanine off, but now with the help of her family I can see her getting better. I think Will and Maddy will go a long way in helping her. I've said this before but as I read this part of the saga and see Will grow and mature I almost can't believe it. This changes are so great and vast it almost seem we have a different person. This Will is not a saint but shows he cares a great deal for his family and friends. What he has done for Robbie, Brad, JP, JJ and Jeanine just in the last few days is more than what most 14 yos do in a life time.

[methodwriter85]

Will is making friends, building a base and that is nice too, but I think he had good friends at H-W, but maybe he didn't recognize it. There was a point after the raft trip when Will kind of shut himself down and out. I don't know if you changed the direction of the story mid-stream or if you had always planned on Will transferring to Menlo, but after the raft trip, even with getting busted Ryan and Will were kind of the King Shits of their class. It was Will that caused the separation not his friends. We also never saw any of Will's Malibu friends. He had to have them, he is an affable kid and even if it were only the neighborhood kids or the surf crew, these would have been guys and girls he'd known his whole life.

 

There's a huge difference between having friends that want to hang around you because you're considered The Shit and live in the Colony, and having friends that want to be around you because they're genuine friends, especially when we're talking about middle school/start of high school. Most people don't have their life-long friendships set at 13 like Andy Sharpe in Cross-Currents did. Just because Will is an affable kid doesn't mean he's got a ton of genuine friends, especially considering that Will during the time of Poor Man's Son was pretty bad at judging people. Jason is someone that we were lead to believe that Will had been friends with his whole life, and then Jason generally ditched Will after they started high school because he didn't want, for whatever reason, to be in the same group, and because Will attached himself at the hip to Ryan. I don't think his bullshit detector really developed until sometime after he got back to school, and he decided to forego making shallow friendships in favor of Marie's approach, which was to find quality people that weren't shallow fakes like Carter's crowd, or were generally fair weather friends like Ryan and Shiloh's crowd.

 

If Will doesn't feel like he's got a lot of genuine friends from HW aside from maybe Ryan and Alistair, I think it's because he doesn't have a lot of genuine friends aside from Ryan and Alistair. You also gotta factor in that Will has been pretty preoccupied with his family issues, and when you're 14 and in high school, friends tend to expect a lot of loyalty and a lot of hang-out time. Will also seemed to focus a lot on hanging out at parties with the Stanford crowd, and other than the float trip, he didn't interact that much with HW kids who weren't Alistair and Ryan. My guess is that Will was viewed as a cool guy who was hot, but since he was gay girls didn't have much use for him, and since he wasn't hanging out after school all the time, guys didn't see the point in continuing to invite him over to play video games.

 

Will is kind of like that freshman who only really hung out with upperclassmen, and then looked around and realized he wasn't all that bonded to people in his class.

 

Marie comes across more in this story. It is good to see that she is not a push over. One of the things I thought was the most interesting was Brad and Robbies reaction to drinking compared to Brad's drinking to High School. As for the gates being lock some wounds never die. In Cap years it was 20 years ago that Billy died. But in the mind of the family only like yesterday. Honestly , if these kids are going to drink, isn't this the best place. Safe, and not judgemental.

 

I'm loving Marie. You can see where she's Claire's daughter, but you can also see where she's very much NOT the well-heeled debutante that we all know Claire was in 1982.

 

As for the drinking thing, I thought it was reflective of the times. In the 1970's, when JP, Isidore, and Sam were raising their kids, there was much more of a relaxed atmosphere about drinking. Colleges had on-campus bars, the drinking age was 18 in many states, and the average  legal blood alcohol level was .15. I've also gotten the impression that teen drunk driving accidents hit their peak in the late 1970's. That's probably a big factor in two things that happened- the raising of the drinking age in all states to 21 by 1984, and the rising of the driving age from 16 to in some states being 17 or 18. I know that in Delaware, at some point the age for driving permits raised to 15 and a half, then went to 15 and ten months, with the license age raised from the 16th birthday to 16 and a half, and 16 and ten months.

 

I think in Mark's generation, it was common that you could just drive off in your car for your 16th birthday, but I don't think that's true anymore. Although lucky for these guys, they have a chauffer so it's not that big of a deal for Will that he won't get his license until junior year.

Edited March 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

      (YES, I KNOW THEY SENT THEIR KIDS TO HARVARD-WESTLAKE, PRIVATE TIM. I STILL THINK IF THEY WERE HARD-CORE ACADEMICS IT WOULD HAVE COME ACROSS IN THE STORY LIKE IT DID FOR J.P. IN HIS TWO STORIES, OR HELL, LIKE IT DID FOR ANDY SHARPE IN CROSS-CURRENTS EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ALSO A MAJOR PARTY BOY)

 

<media>

[sat8997]

Eh...the drinking thing is mainly parents of teenagers expecting, for some dumb reason, their kid to not do the stupid shit they did at the same age. It doesn't work. Best you can hope for is they don't do even more stupid shit than you did.

[PrivateTim]

      I agree that it's nice that we seem to be getting the "Academic" back into CAP. Brad and Robbie went to Ivy League schools and are very bright, but neither of them seem to have the same level of academic spirit or thirst for knowledge (YES, I KNOW THEY SENT THEIR KIDS TO HARVARD-WESTLAKE, PRIVATE TIM. I STILL THINK IF THEY WERE HARD-CORE ACADEMICS IT WOULD HAVE COME ACROSS IN THE STORY LIKE IT DID FOR J.P. IN HIS TWO STORIES, OR HELL, LIKE IT DID FOR ANDY SHARPE IN CROSS-CURRENTS EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ALSO A MAJOR PARTY BOY) that Will's been displaying. The marine biology lesson from Will remains my favorite moment from him.

 

Okay serious now.

 

I think sometimes you forget that it is Mr. Arbour who is writing this story and that he chooses to emphasize in his stories what is important to him and moves his story forward. We have been following Brad for 39 years now, but we only see 10 and 15 minute vignettes of him and not always through his POV, but often someone else's POV that Mr. Arbour has created. Mr. Arbour does a marvelous job in telling his story they way he wants to tell it.

 

That Mr. Phillips choose to emphasize different points is his stylistic and artistic choice.

[methodwriter85]

   Damn, I was hoping that you were going to just stick with the flippant response.

 

   Now I'll be serious. I'm more responding to Mark's comment in reviews that he thinks JP sees in Will a kindred spirit in terms of their thirst for knowledge. Not that Brad's a dunce in any way shape or form, but other than attending Princeton, we haven't seen much in terms of Brad being an academic. Of course, I am in no way saying that someone who's not an academic can't be smart, because Brad is. He's just not someone who made the choice to dedicate their living to the grooming and pursuit of esoteric knowledge. He could have if he wanted to, I'm sure, but he didn't make that choice. I'm just saying that I know it's nice that with Will, we seem to be getting a little bit of the "Academic" part of CAP back in the series.

 

   The caps were more about how it's frustrating that you seem to disagree with everything I write, and I was responding in a way I would have when I was 15 and in a flame war on a discussion board. Sometimes I can be a little stubborn if I believe I'm right about something, and feel frustrated if I'm not getting the last word. That was rather regressive of me. Sometimes I feel like you just keep chipping away at me on this board.

Edited March 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

   Damn, I was hoping that you were going to just stick with the flippant response.

 

   Now I'll be serious. I'm more responding to Mark's comment in reviews that he thinks JP sees in Will a kindred spirit in terms of their thirst for knowledge. Not that Brad's a dunce in any way shape or form, but other than attending Princeton, we haven't seen much in terms of Brad being an academic. Of course, I am in no way saying that someone who's not an academic can't be smart, because Brad is. He's just not someone who made the choice to dedicate their living to the grooming and pursuit of esoteric knowledge. He could have if he wanted to, I'm sure, but he didn't make that choice. I'm just saying that I know it's nice that with Will, we seem to be getting a little bit of the "Academic" part of CAP back in the series.

 

Are you a student still? Maybe you just don't get it?

 

Do you think the only place you grow as an "academic" is in school? That in a college is the only place that knowledge expands? Most people who work hard in high school and then college are doing so so they can get a great job and make something of themselves. Do you have any idea how much reading a CEO has to do to stay on top of what is going on? How many subjects he needs to an expert on? Any idea how much new knowledge Brad had to acquire to run a large defense contractor? JP knows a shitload about French Imperialism, but do think he knows dank about production lines, supply chains, labor negotiations, resource allocation, right sizing a company, long term strategic planning and all they myriad things a CEO is responsible for?

 

In the safe world of academia you can be a complete f-up and last for ever in your job. In the business world if you are complete f-up you might fool people for a while, but you can't fool them forever. Not even being a huge success in one business doesn't mean you'll be successful in another. Don't forget Apple fired Steve Jobs. It took him a while to figure it out.

[methodwriter85]

Are you a student still?

 

I'm basically in-between being a student and really starting on that career path. It took me seven years to finish undegrad and grad school. I count my two years of grad school as being the most challenging and rewarding experiences of my life.

 

And yeah, there's the academic world, and then there's real-world knowledge. You're talking about real-world knowledge that Brad has gained in being a CEO, which is not the same as academia. I was trained to be a public historian, which means that I'm supposed to serve as a mediator between the Ivy Academic Towers, and the public at large. I learned both academia and real-world knowledge as a result. I get what both sides are like, and I don't think either side is superior- they're just different.

 

I was in no way dogging Brad. I'm just saying that he isn't an academic, and since he isn't publishing articles or teaching kids in an academic environment, it would be a pretty fair assessment for me to make. That doesn't mean I think for a second that he doesn't have a lot of knowledge or could have done that field if he had wanted to.

Edited March 12, 2013 by methodwriter85