9.11

[Daddydavek]

I don't suppose Will's cousin John is having sex, drinking or smoking pot either?

[Gene Splicer PHD]

   Well, last time I checked, when Brad was 17 in the summer of 1980, it was illegal for a 17-year old to drink, smoke pot, snort cocaine, and drop acid, but that sure didn't stop Brad.

 

it never stopped me either

 

I guess my point is that there are folks looking to find out where Brad gets off bitching at Will about all his terrible habits at the tender age of 14. Which is fine. What was Brad doing at 14? Was he at church? A choirboy? Could he have been a competitive eater? Or hanging around a D & D board in nerdy clothes? Maybe he was a complete Nifty style dickhound hanging around rest stops? Maybe he and JP and Stef sat on the patio at Escorial and did shrooms and got baked and screwed each other raw. Maybe JP bought Brad a boy to play with at a party. Maybe maybe maybe. 

 

We don't have any idea what the kid was doing at the same age as Will, and I think there's a bit of an age/maturity gap in any kid between the ages of 14 and 17. Is Brad projecting his past behavior on Will and wanting to derail him from those experiences? We don't know enough to say.

 

Maybe that's not what he's doing, though. Maybe he's looking at Will and seeing a horrible future, and wants to fix it now, before it gets really bad. Looking at it from a parental perspective (and I am drawing on my life experience with my own father here), I can see where Brad's concerns are really valid, regardless of his own history. 

 

When I was 16, my dad and  I got into a huge shouting match about drugs I'd been caught with, and my dad said (and I remember this really clearly) "JESUS "GENE", YOU'RE SIXTEEN. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO BE ON WHEN YOU'RE TWENTY?" And then we got into another shouting match where I, the pillar of mature thinking, said "People kick heroin all the time"

 

No matter what the emancipation papers say, Brad IS Will's father. The papers say that Will is completely free to do whatever the hell he wants, apparently, but at the same time, I think that Brad feels a strong obligation to Will right now, and he is being "the dad" seeing his son going over the legal line, over and over again, and his entire family is aligned against him. He's handling it badly, and that needs to change, but you can't look at Brad's history and say that it matters. Can you? Really?

 

He's the dad.

 

And let's remember: Brad does not know Will like WE do. We're omniscient readers. We can see Will's locked door and know there's nothing in it. We can see a bar in his house and the booze, and know that Will's not drinking much of it. We can see the reasons Will bought a house in the first place.

 

Brad can't see any of that. He sees: Lots of sex, a "sex dungeon" (and he's been told that's what it is), he sees a stocked bar in a minor's house, and a lot of partying. It's a totally different view from ours.

 

Brad does not have a ringside seat. We do.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Gene Splicer PHD

[methodwriter85]

I don't suppose Will's cousin John is having sex, drinking or smoking pot either?

  

     JJ and Marie seem like the only teenaged grandchildren not into drinking or using drugs, although we can't be totally sure about that with Marie. Marie does have the added concern of the double-standard that people have about boys vs. girls- that it's okay for a guy to have lots of sex, drink, and use drugs, but a "nice girl" isn't supposed to do that, and if she does, she's a skank.

 

We don't have any idea what the kid was doing at the same age as Will, and I think there's a bit of an age/maturity gap in any kid between the ages of 14 and 17. Is Brad projecting his past behavior on Will and wanting to derail him from those experiences? We don't know enough to say.

 

    I think the consistent premise we've been going with since Will took over as a protagonist is that he has the physical and emotional development of a 17-year old. We don't know if the same was true for Brad at 14, or if Brad was more in line with other 14-year old boys.

 

  Although given that Brad mentioned that he started given Ace blowjobs when he was around 12, I think it's more likely he was advanced like Will.

Edited August 28, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Gene Splicer PHD]

     JJ and Marie seem like the only teenaged grandchildren not into drinking or using drugs, although we can't be totally sure about that with Marie. Marie does have the added concern of the double-standard that people have about boys vs. girls- that it's okay for a guy to have lots of sex, drink, and use drugs, but a "nice girl" isn't supposed to do that, and if she does, she's a skank.

 

 

    I think the consistent premise we've been going with since Will took over as a protagonist is that he has the physical and emotional development of a 17-year old. We don't know if the same was true for Brad at 14, or if Brad was more in line with other 14-year old boys.

 

  Although given that Brad mentioned that he started given Ace blowjobs when he was around 12, I think it's more likely he was advanced like Will.

 

 

That has not been my perception of the story vis a vis Will, and you have a closer hand than mine because you're on the team, so I could be wrong, but I don't see Brad as particularly advanced in Be Rad or The Land Whore. Brad is shown in those stories as being rather small and quite shy. He's nervous and closeted, very arrogant about his wee-wee, but I don't see a lot of advanced qualities there.

 

Did he develop early? We don't know. And that's my point. We don't have the backstory to know that information. You have a premise: I don't.

 

My perception of Will's development level is that he's physically mature, but not emotionally. That's where the tantrums come from, and the struggle he has between his physical appearance and what he wants as a kid of 14. Mostly, he wants the freedom he can have as a person of 17, at the physical (and I think emotional) age of 14. And he's gotten that. Mostly.

 

And all over these threads you can find examples of "Give him a break, he's 14!" or "He's only 14!" when he's being harassed, and at the same time, the expectations that he will make mature, responsible decisions as an "adult" and lots of kudos when he stands up to "the man".

 

Even IF Will were 17 emotionally, any parent seeing the patterns of behavior that Will exhibits should be freaking out a bit. I sure as hell would.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Gene Splicer PHD

[Daddydavek]

     JJ and Marie seem like the only teenaged grandchildren not into drinking or using drugs, although we can't be totally sure about that with Marie. Marie does have the added concern of the double-standard that people have about boys vs. girls- that it's okay for a guy to have lots of sex, drink, and use drugs, but a "nice girl" isn't supposed to do that, and if she does, she's a skank.

 

 

    I think the consistent premise we've been going with since Will took over as a protagonist is that he has the physical and emotional development of a 17-year old. We don't know if the same was true for Brad at 14, or if Brad was more in line with other 14-year old boys.

 

  Although given that Brad mentioned that he started given Ace blowjobs when he was around 12, I think it's more likely he was advanced like Will.

 

I suspect that John and Marie are using pot and perhaps alcohol too and like most teens have been more circumspect about it.

 

And yes Will is his father's son and perhaps that is what has Brad so worried and mother hen-ish.  Still, if he wants to communicate with his son, he has to learn to do it one on one and yes Will is avoiding him so that isn't easy, but it seems someone who runs a multi-million dollar corporation could figure a way out to make that happen.   Just saying!

[PrivateTim]

I don't suppose Will's cousin John is having sex, drinking or smoking pot either?

 

You mean John who is grounded right now??

 

 

it never stopped me either

 

I guess my point is that there are folks looking to find out where Brad gets off bitching at Will about all his terrible habits at the tender age of 14. Which is fine. What was Brad doing at 14? Was he at church? A choirboy? Could he have been a competitive eater? Or hanging around a D & D board in nerdy clothes? Maybe he was a complete Nifty style dickhound hanging around rest stops? Maybe he and JP and Stef sat on the patio at Escorial and did shrooms and got baked and screwed each other raw. Maybe JP bought Brad a boy to play with at a party. Maybe maybe maybe. 

 

<snip>

 

And let's remember: Brad does not know Will like WE do. We're omniscient readers. We can see Will's locked door and know there's nothing in it. We can see a bar in his house and the booze, and know that Will's not drinking much of it. We can see the reasons Will bought a house in the first place.

 

Brad can't see any of that. He sees: Lots of sex, a "sex dungeon" (and he's been told that's what it is), he sees a stocked bar in a minor's house, and a lot of partying. It's a totally different view from ours.

 

Brad does not have a ringside seat. We do.

 

The single best post on all 23 pages. The notion that we can see the mature side of Will (as well as the immature) is key. You are right that Brad only sees the one side.

[methodwriter85]

 

Robbie: I always find his movie production interesting. Harry Potter alone is a big money investment, but the Princess Diaries was a good box hit as well. Today my paper had a article on what the kindergartners wanted to be when they grew up and 24 girls and one boy wanted to be a princess. However, I would love to have Will meet Daniel Radcliffe. I mean Wade met Matthew Shepard and Will meeting Daniel would make my day.

 

      I'd rather Will take a while before meeting Daniel Radcliffe. He was born in July 1989, which would make him a newly-turned 12, and more importantly he LOOKED 12 at this time period. I'm not really into the idea of having Will fuck Harry Potter just yet. Maybe by the time of The Order of the Phoenix.

 

    Will could have a threesome with Harry Potter and Cedric Diggory. In any event, Robbie's looking at a banner year, with The Princess Diaries, Harry Potter, and The Lord of the Rings. Although 2000 was Robbie's "Oscar year", with Erin Brokovitch and Gladiator. 1999 is definitely going to be a distant memory. I loved how much he regretted turning down American Beauty and took on Bicentennial Man instead. LOL.

Edited August 29, 2013 by methodwriter85

[JimCarter]

I can't imagine Brad being able to talk/shout/criticize to/at Will.  It is the age old problem of parents and teens.  The parents forget they did the same or even worse when they were that age, but that doesn't keep them from acting all up and above those same flaws with their children.  The old saying "Do as I say, not as I do!" doesn't hold much to help discussion with their kids.  Kids are not stupid and they can easily see hypocritical behavior in their parents.   

 

I know some parents want to use the excuse that they want to help their children not make the same mistakes they did, but acting like you know what is right and it is my way or the highway doesn't go over well these days.  

[B1ue]

I would feel a lot more sympathy for Brad and Stef's woes if, as someone pointed out, Brad wasn't doing this merely to get to Will. He knew Will was smoking pot. He smoked pot with Will. Same with alcohol. Why is this now a problem? They all knew Will was banging any guy that would hold still long enough, but a sex room is suddenly crossing a line? And one that they intended to trick Will regarding their access to it? That was just a fucked up move, there, and I would have fired Malcolm over it in Will's place. But, then, he had to go and rape the guy, so I guess they're square.

 

I want to feel bad for Stef, but he seems to want to take Brad's side without Will treating him like he's on Brad's side. I would have expected JP to point that out to him, rather than just saying he's an idiot, but oh well.

 

Also, Stef in my mental imagery seems to be shifting to look like one of my aunts on the cholo side of my family. It is very odd.

[Kitt]

 

 

I know some parents want to use the excuse that they want to help their children not make the same mistakes they did, but acting like you know what is right and it is my way or the highway doesn't go over well these days.  

I can see Brad thinking just that way, as easily as any parent could go there. The my way or the highway attitude didn't go over very well back when i was Wills age either. In fact it still doesn't in most cases. When someone is being unreasonable in their presentation of the issues they seldom have a chance to resolve them. About half the readers seem to want to lay the entire situation at Will's feet. Will is being a brat, Will is not taking Brad's calls, Will is building a sex room.  OK, so what if every word is true, and Will IS getting out of control, drinking more, doing more drugs? Will starting every attempt at conversation with animosity and letting the discussion deteriorate into shouting and threats do any good?  Try sitting down and talking to the kid POLITELY. If someone started out by threatening to take me to court, even today, my response would be to say "Then speak to my lawyer".  One cannot reason with a gale storm. Walk away and let the wind die down.

 

I would feel a lot more sympathy for Brad and Stef's woes if, as someone pointed out, Brad wasn't doing this merely to get to Will. He knew Will was smoking pot. He smoked pot with Will. Same with alcohol. Why is this now a problem? They all knew Will was banging any guy that would hold still long enough, but a sex room is suddenly crossing a line? And one that they intended to trick Will regarding their access to it? That was just a fucked up move, there, and I would have fired Malcolm over it in Will's place. But, then, he had to go and rape the guy, so I guess they're square.

I agree with everything you said here but one. Will did not rape the man. Rape is a crime of violence, and it is NOT a consensual act. Malcolm could have stopped the situation by saying no. Will did not force himself on the man, he gave a submissive partner what he was looking for. To leap to the conclusion that it was rape ranks right up there with the conclusions others have leapt to that Will is drinking too much and getting into more drugs than just the pot.

[PrivateTim]

I can't imagine Brad being able to talk/shout/criticize to/at Will.  It is the age old problem of parents and teens.  The parents forget they did the same or even worse when they were that age, but that doesn't keep them from acting all up and above those same flaws with their children.  The old saying "Do as I say, not as I do!" doesn't hold much to help discussion with their kids.  Kids are not stupid and they can easily see hypocritical behavior in their parents.   

 

I know some parents want to use the excuse that they want to help their children not make the same mistakes they did, but acting like you know what is right and it is my way or the highway doesn't go over well these days.  

 

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

 

Attributed to Mark Twain

 

I agree with everything you said here but one. Will did not rape the man. Rape is a crime of violence, and it is NOT a consensual act. Malcolm could have stopped the situation by saying no. Will did not force himself on the man, he gave a submissive partner what he was looking for. To leap to the conclusion that it was rape ranks right up there with the conclusions others have leapt to that Will is drinking too much and getting into more drugs than just the pot.

 

Oh you are so wrong here. Rape is a crime of power and control only in some cases does it involve violence.

 

A rape victim does not say "no" sometimes because they can not out of fear of violence, fear of reprisal or the lack of mental capacity to say no. Mere lack of a "no" and a claim of "expressive consent" (I knew she wanted it too) is a very weak defense in rape cases. The notion of "I knew he/she wanted it too, but I had to take control" is a 1970's attitude that if a defendant said that on the stand it would take everything his lawyer had not to reach out and not choke him right there. Juries don't like that attitude.

 

The fraternity house that I advise at USC we bring in an ADA every fall to speak to the pledge class on what constitutes rape and especially the idea of "date rape" and by the time he is done he has scared the 18 year olds into at least two weeks of celibacy, maybe longer.

 

As to Will & Brad, it is very hard to have a calm, polite conversation with someone that won't talk to you. I can only imagine the pent up anxiety of the father of a 14 year old who has their own bar, is buying pot and has a sex room and won't take his phone calls. It also takes two to have a shouting match just as it takes two to have a calm, polite conversation.

[B1ue]

Oh you are so wrong here. Rape is a crime of power and control only in some cases does it involve violence.

 

A rape victim does not say "no" sometimes because they can not out of fear of violence, fear of reprisal or the lack of mental capacity to say no. Mere lack of a "no" and a claim of "expressive consent" (I knew she wanted it too) is a very weak defense in rape cases. The notion of "I knew he/she wanted it too, but I had to take control" is a 1970's attitude that if a defendant said that on the stand it would take everything his lawyer had not to reach out and not choke him right there. Juries don't like that attitude.

I agree. And while I respect Mark's writing enough to believe Malcolm did eventually consent to the situation, it was not something I enjoyed reading.

 

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

 

Attributed to Mark Twain

 

As to Will & Brad, it is very hard to have a calm, polite conversation with someone that won't talk to you. I can only imagine the pent up anxiety of the father of a 14 year old who has their own bar, is buying pot and has a sex room and won't take his phone calls. It also takes two to have a shouting match just as it takes two to have a calm, polite conversation.

 

I combined these points because, for me, they help illustrate Brad and Will's dynamic. In my experience, which you may see as well, what causes people to get along with their parents so much better once they are out of their teens is that their parents stop trying to directly control them. They also stop behaviors that can even be construed as control, which allows parents and children to act as relative equals. Brad is not treating Will like an equal, and Will thinks he deserves to be treated as one. With many 14 year olds, that wish would be outrageous, but Will (as far as he knows) has the legal right to it.

 

Further, if I may be allowed a moment of sarcasm, I am having difficulty imagining the pent-up anxiety of a father who has permitted all of those activities when he was that 14-year-old's guardian, but now takes issue with them. I hate the idea of smoking pot, but this family clearly disagrees, so why shouldn't Will partake when he always has before? Does anyone honestly think denying Will a sex room might slow down his sexuality? I mean, for most kids in Will's school, their sex room is simply their bedroom. Brad's concerns about him getting locked in there without means to get help are certainly valid, but why not offer practical advice, like ensuring phone service inside it, or advising him to install a panic button?

Edited August 29, 2013 by B1ue

[Mark Arbour]

Also, Stef in my mental imagery seems to be shifting to look like one of my aunts on the cholo side of my family. It is very odd.

 

OK, that was funny.  I'll have to visualize some of that dialog when I want a laugh. 

[sat8997]

Anyone notice that Will doesn't actually have a sex room? He has an empty room with a very sturdy door. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mark Arbour]

Anyone notice that Will doesn't actually have a sex room? He has an empty room with a very sturdy door. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

It's like one big metaphor. 

[mmike1969]

Anyone notice that Will doesn't actually have a sex room? He has an empty room with a very sturdy door. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's because the metal frame for the sling takes time to be built. Things like this are not Pre-assembled nor are there kits you can buy at Ikea.

[Daddydavek]

That's because the metal frame for the sling takes time to be built. Things like this are not Pre-assembled nor are there kits you can buy at Ikea.

 

Just out of curiosity I checked on bing:

 

• Bondage Kit, Sex sling - Pleasure sling - ShopWiki

  www.shopwiki.com › Accessories › Bags

  ShopWiki has 433 results for Bondage Kit, Sex sling - Pleasure sling, including Mossy Oak Sling Mounting Kit Rifle, Grand Trunk Tree Sling Hanging Kit, Mossy Oak 870 ...

[JimCarter]

Anyone notice that Will doesn't actually have a sex room? He has an empty room with a very sturdy door. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Of course we realize this, but it has nothing to do with Will's use to fuck with his father and Steph's minds.  It is the principle that he is trying to make.  It is my house, keep your ass out of my business.

[Gene Splicer PHD]

Anyone notice that Will doesn't actually have a sex room? He has an empty room with a very sturdy door. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oh absolutely. It really is a keystone of the story.

 

It's really important that Brad has no clue about that door for a while yet, because it shows the disconnect between both of them. When Brad finds out The Beautiful Room Is Empty,  it's going to bake his noodle.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Gene Splicer PHD

[Kitt]

I can't help but wonder just how much worse things will get between the two when Brad finally figures out most of the kids bad behavior is in his head. He isn't one to admit when he has been wrong, unlike Will who tries to make it right once he calms down and figures things out.  All Will is really guilty of here is keeping Brad at arms distance, and reacting badly to being shouted at and threatened. Once Brad figures that out I think he may feel a little foolish, something I can't see him liking very much.

[MJ85]

Pity that they can't both just be locked in a room by themselves and not let out until they've hashed out everything, and I do mean ever-y-thing.

[B1ue]

Pity that they can't both just be locked in a room by themselves and not let out until they've hashed out everything, and I do mean ever-y-thing.

Only if they were frisked for weapons first.

Edited August 30, 2013 by B1ue

[Kitt]

Pity that they can't both just be locked in a room by themselves and not let out until they've hashed out everything, and I do mean ever-y-thing.

 

 

Only if they were frisked for weapons first.

Perhaps restrained as well - you can do a lot of damage with bare hands.

[Daddydavek]

I suspect neither would resort to physical violence against the other, but the yelling and hollering would be deafening.   But that would still be better than just avoiding the issue.  That is why I think it is incumbent on Brad to figure out a way to open a line of communication.   He's a smart guy, he should be able to figure it out.  Will is the adolescent, albeit a headstrong one, but he does have his role models.  

[PrivateTim]

That's because the metal frame for the sling takes time to be built. Things like this are not Pre-assembled nor are there kits you can buy at Ikea.

 

IKEA, are you kidding? They have slings in three different colors and one that only uses green energy and vegan lube..