9.11

[rjo]

As Daddy Dave said, we really don't know Zach very well. If it is true that he looked at his life, didn't like what he saw, and decided to change it. Doesn't he deserve a second change? Very few people have done that, and if you add to that his age. It is even more remarkable. We must remember that we have only seen Zach though other people eyes. Upto this point either Will or Gathan have really liked Zach. Just as JJ has come out and now we understand him much better because we know what he is thinking. Maybe Zach will turn out to be a better person than we think. Only time will tell. Remember Roger was less than perfect when he first met Stefan, but later with JP he was a kind, loving, faithful partner. Only our beloved author knows for sure what will happen. (Just an aside I read Daddy Daves story about Dean Warner and loved it. Dave I hope you continue to write.)

Edited November 5, 2013 by rjo

[methodwriter85]

    Good point. Remember when Tony was introduced as the too-good-to-true, loving Italian stallion jock? Then Mark revealed that Tony isn't a dick because he hates being gay- Tony's a dick because he's a dick.

 

   I love how the characters tend to evolve in ways you didn't predict- I remember that Mark didn't really intend for Wade to be anything more than a passing fling for Matt, but the character clicked and now he's anchoring the newest CAP core family.

 

As to Zach and football, even if he is a good player you needed to be great at your position, top 10 or so in the country to get a USC to notice you in the Carroll era. There is a lot more to college football in CA than the Pac 10 (12 now), San Jose State, Fresno State, UC Davis and San Diego State have certainly all placed players in the NFL and there are the small schools like Claremont McKenna, Pomona Pitzer, Azusa Pacific etc that play a tough brand of football and have sent the occasional player to the NFL like Christian Okoye.

 

     That would probably be why Mark wrote that a New Jersey private school went through the trouble of recruiting someone from Ohio off the strength of his freshman and sophomore years- Zach has to be somebody that's getting national, "he's in the Top 10" kind of notice. I don't think even Jeff or Robbie were getting that kind of notice.

 

     Speaking of USC though...did you guys hear the story about a middle school kid that gave a committment to play at USC but quite predictably, isn't quite the phenom at 17 that he was at 13? I'll be shocked if David Sills actually does play at USC, but we'll see what happens. David Sills went to Red Lion Christian Academy in Delaware, and the school had some shady dealings going on with the football program, which got the kibosh so he left for a football team affilated with an online Christian academy.

Edited November 6, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

As Daddy Dave said, we really don't know Zach very well. If it is true that he looked at his life, didn't like what he saw, and decided to change it. Doesn't he deserve a second change? Very few people have done that, and if you add to that his age. It is even more remarkable. We must remember that we have only seen Zach though other people eyes. Upto this point either Will or Gathan have really liked Zach. Just as JJ has come out and now we understand him much better because we know what he is thinking. Maybe Zach will turn out to be a better person than we think. Only time will tell. Remember Roger was less than perfect when he first met Stefan, but later with JP he was a kind, loving, faithful partner. Only our beloved author knows for sure what will happen. (Just an aside I read Daddy Daves story about Dean Warner and loved it. Dave I hope you continue to write.)

Don't spoil my dreams. I want Zach to remain a villain, in his own mind at least. It allows me to maintain that his theme song is "Cowboy Casanova."

Edited November 6, 2013 by B1ue

[Daddydavek]

F

 

Don't spoil my dreams. I want Zach to remain a villain, in his own mind at least. It allows me to maintain that his theme song is "Cowboy Casanova."

Funny thing is but I've always found that if you expect the worst from someone, you are rarely disappointed.   However, if you expect the best, you are sometimes pleasantly surprised.  I'm not a starry eyed kid, but I have found that treating people as you would like to be treated and not judging them or pigeon holing them, can have some real impact.   There are enough kids treated like trash, who act like trash and only expect others to trash  them in this world without perpetuating the vicious cycle.  BTW I love that video with Carrie!

[methodwriter85]

   I like the idea of Zach being morally grey- not really a good guy, but not a sociopath like Brian or Alexandra Carmichael. (I'm on the fence over whether or not I think MaryEllen and Elizabeth are sociopaths.)

 

Maybe JJ is starting to mature…a bit. There must be something in the family’s genetics. He is starting to read people better; similar to Brad when he was growing up. He is not on the same level as Will or Wade, but he is at least becoming more aware. It maybe that I just never noticed and ignored it and focusing on the bitchy JJ.

 

      I think when JJ wants to, he can read people well- he clearly has both Matt and Will's number about how easily they'll grab their ankles for any handsome guy that wants to play. But because he's generally a loner and doesn't want to let people in, JJ just stays in his own little world. When I was in my early 20's someone once referred to me as "willfully obtuse", and I think that term could apply to JJ- you see these little flashes of insight with him, which makes his general self-absorption and reticence to see beyond his front door all the more frustrating.

 

     What I think has been interesting about his trajectory is that Mark slowly and methodically destroyed the safe little bubble that JJ existed in- first the troubles with Tiffany and Jeanine, then Jeanine going nuts, then it turning out that his coach was molesting him, and finally killing off Jeanine and Robbie. JJ can't really hide behind anything now, except his bitchy diva act. Will, and I suppose John now, really seem like they refuse to let JJ just slip through the cracks.

 

 

 

Trevor: Honestly I do not remember this Trevor Morgan. My first assumption was that he was the one to pick on JJ with Ryan. Regardless JJ handled him well. Before he would have gotten emotional and start yelling if someone insulted his skating.

 

    The Trevor here was Trevor Morgan, a child actor from the late 90's and early 00's that appeared in such films as The Sixth Sense, The Patriot, and Jurassic Park 3. It's actually pretty funny that Mark's having him cameo, because I had a mild crush on him- although nowhere near the level of obsession I had for Josh Hartnett and Nick Lachey.

 

     What I liked about the scene is how much of a parallel there is between child actors and child athletes- just because you do well as a child athlete does not mean that you'll do well as an adult one, and the same goes for actors. JJ's transitioning to adult-level competition and the whole ball game is different. Evan Lysacek didn't even leave junior level entirely until he was aged out of it, at 19- he had some difficulty with getting that competitive. Then he wound up becoming one of the best figure skaters for that decade.

 

 

I am voting for JJ to lose his virginity by the end of the story.....  hell, you want him to wait 5 more years before he gets some? What kind of a sadistic bastard are you?

 

      I thought more seriously on this, and I think the point of seeing inside JJ's mindset vs. Will's mindset for this chapter was to show the differences between how a person who's libido is going at full-blast thinks, vs. someone who's libido is starting to heat up but hasn't really switched on to "Must fuck something NOW!" yet thinks. JJ will probably be ready in another year or two, but he's not there yet. JJ thinks in terms of people being "cute" that he'd want to make out with and possibly get to second base with, but he's not thinking in terms of, "God, I want to fuck every cute person in sight!"

 

      Which is hard to imagine, especially from guys who were "developed" at 14/15 like Will was.They have a man's body, which tells them to screw everything in sight. JJ doesn't quite have one yet even though he's almost 16, which explains the difference in perspective with that chapter.

Edited November 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

 

      Which is hard to imagine, especially from guys who were "developed" at 14/15 like Will was.They have a man's body, which tells them to screw everything in sight. JJ doesn't quite have one yet even though he's almost 16, which explains the difference in perspective with that chapter.

Which is exactly the point when people start criticizing Will's promiscuity.  Man's body and hormones saying "screw it go screw him" yet at this point he is just developing the social filters that would slow things down.  What gets me is Matt was very much the same way throughout his freshman year of college and more, yet none of the people who blast Will even seem to think about how Matt was not only screwing everything cute that waved a tush at him, he was doing it in spite of being in a relationship with Wade.

[Sammy Blue]

What gets me is Matt was very much the same way throughout his freshman year of college and more, yet none of the people who blast Will even seem to think about how Matt was not only screwing everything cute that waved a tush at him, he was doing it in spite of being in a relationship with Wade.

 

That's two different things though (for some people). Matt is an adult, legally, hence he can do 'what he wants'. People mind Will's fucking around because of the age. It's not legal and people don't take maturity but a number (age on paper) as criterion to judge. I think, the funny thing is that Will actually seems to be one who is more mature. I just don't see Will having a problem with being monogamous. That's just not him. The only problem people have, I think, is that it's not 'appropriate' for his age, or am I wrong here?

 

I don't really get the age of consent in California (or the US in general) anyway. Especially because the mindset 'the later the better' and 'abstinence is the best prevention' doesn't really seem to work anyway. I'm glad we have different laws over here. ^^ Anyway, I wasn't as bad as Will, but I did do a lot of stuff when I was his age, so I can hardly judge him...

[Kitt]

It is a very different thing on paper - but not in reality.  I remember as a fifteen yr old gal, in most cases there was one thing a 15/16 yr old guy wanted.  I don't imagine it is all that different in a gay setting.  There were many instances of 15 and 16 yr old gals pregnant during my junior and senior years.  So - as i see it a lot of teens are promiscuous, both male and female. The difference here is the visibility level. Everyone seems to know about Wills liaisons. Most teens keep things hidden much more!

[PrivateTim]

    I thought more seriously on this, and I think the point of seeing inside JJ's mindset vs. Will's mindset for this chapter was to show the differences between how a person who's libido is going at full-blast thinks, vs. someone who's libido is starting to heat up but hasn't really switched on to "Must fuck something NOW!" yet thinks. JJ will probably be ready in another year or two, but he's not there yet. JJ thinks in terms of people being "cute" that he'd want to make out with and possibly get to second base with, but he's not thinking in terms of, "God, I want to fuck every cute person in sight!"

 

      Which is hard to imagine, especially from guys who were "developed" at 14/15 like Will was.They have a man's body, which tells them to screw everything in sight. JJ doesn't quite have one yet even though he's almost 16, which explains the difference in perspective with that chapter.

 

There is a very wide gulf between being an ice queen and a slut.

 

A good number of guys lose their virginity between 13 - 17, but the vast majority are in the upper ages and they have very partners. In most cases it is not because they don't want it or don't have sexual urges, it is that they can't get it for a variety of reasons.

 

It would be perfectly reasonable for JJ to have sex with one of his friends and then one or two others, that would be normal, but to assume that JJ doesn't have raging hormones and doesn't slap his pud like every other boy his age isn't realistic. You don't have to be acting out with others on your sexual fervor, Rosy is good enough, non-threatening and never says no.

 

Which is exactly the point when people start criticizing Will's promiscuity.  Man's body and hormones saying "screw it go screw him" yet at this point he is just developing the social filters that would slow things down.  What gets me is Matt was very much the same way throughout his freshman year of college and more, yet none of the people who blast Will even seem to think about how Matt was not only screwing everything cute that waved a tush at him, he was doing it in spite of being in a relationship with Wade.

 

There is a vast difference between a promiscuous 13 year old and a college freshman. Only 5% of 13 year old males have lost their virginity and only 10% of 14 years olds vs 68% of 19 year olds.

 

Even at that, the 13 year old who loses his virginity is still not likely to have very many partners by the time he graduates high school. Will exceeded the average number of lifetime partners for the average U.S. male before the end of his 9th grade year and before his 15th birthday.

[methodwriter85]

 

 

There is a very wide gulf between being an ice queen and a slut.

 

A good number of guys lose their virginity between 13 - 17, but the vast majority are in the upper ages and they have very partners. In most cases it is not because they don't want it or don't have sexual urges, it is that they can't get it for a variety of reasons.

 

It would be perfectly reasonable for JJ to have sex with one of his friends and then one or two others, that would be normal, but to assume that JJ doesn't have raging hormones and doesn't slap his pud like every other boy his age isn't realistic. You don't have to be acting out with others on your sexual fervor, Rosy is good enough, non-threatening and never says no.

 

     You're mistaking my intent. I'm not saying JJ is an ice queen. JJ IS curious about being intimate, and we know he masturbates, but my point is that he's not at the point where sex is on his mind 24/7. He's at the point where the hormones are starting to go, but they're not at full gallop yet, which is why I don't agree with your joke about how JJ needs to lose his virginity by the end of this story, which I'm assuming will close out in December 2001 or January 2002. My guess is that it'll happen when JJ's about 17 or 18, in either 2003 or 2004.

 

     I feel like that was the point Mark was making with this chapter, about how people have different rates of maturity. Will has the body of a fully grown adult male, about the age of 18-19, which is when men are at their sexual peak and everything is screaming, "Fuck something! Fuck something now!" JJ's body is not that mature, probably still lagging behind a year or two his chronological age- he's curious about doing sexual things, but he's not quite ready for going all the way just yet.

[PrivateTim]

     You're mistaking my intent. I'm not saying JJ is an ice queen. JJ IS curious about being intimate, and we know he masturbates, but my point is that he's not at the point where sex is on his mind 24/7. He's at the point where the hormones are starting to go, but they're not at full gallop yet, which is why I don't agree with your joke about how JJ needs to lose his virginity by the end of this story, which I'm assuming will close out in December 2001 or January 2002. My guess is that it'll happen when JJ's about 17 or 18, in either 2003 or 2004.

 

I think my point is I've known very few boys who didn't think of sex every 3.6 seconds from the 7th grade on.

[Sammy Blue]

There is a vast difference between a promiscuous 13 year old and a college freshman. Only 5% of 13 year old males have lost their virginity and only 10% of 14 years olds vs 68% of 19 year olds.

 

Even at that, the 13 year old who loses his virginity is still not likely to have very many partners by the time he graduates high school. Will exceeded the average number of lifetime partners for the average U.S. male before the end of his 9th grade year and before his 15th birthday.

 

YET the vast majority of 15 y/o think about sex all day. While only few actually have a lot of sex, it does not mean that there is a reason to sentence it wrong. I remember back to that time very well. I had at least two friends who wouldn't even really cum (only some liquid) at age of 14/15. But a good friend of mine knew he was gay at 9 and became sexually active very early. Everyone develops differently and the age of consent is nothing other than a try to draw a line. But this can never capture all possibilities. People keep forgetting that when dealing with someone like Will.

 

The question should be: is sex consensual or not consensual/harming? Will is very premature and that actually reflects the general prematurity in our time. It is a fact that puberty starts earlier and earlier. He is also good looking, rich, and independent. Everyone would do the same thing or at least something similar in his position.

 

I think Will knows very well that this can't buy him happiness, nothing without love can. Actually, I think, most of his encounters are nothing else than an alternative for masturbation.

 

Age of consent in Germany is 14, although there is an additional paragraph for persons below 16 and among 21, which says that it is illegal 'if the lack of maturity is taken advantage of'. There have been cases with sex between 14 and 13 y/o but those are (in any case that I know of) dropped because it is 'negligible'. (There are a few other things, such as the whole 'custodian' thing and 'providing opportunity' that basically says that you may not provide opportunity or encourage sex between persons below 16 (as in letting them sleep in the same room, other than if you are a parent as for that matter- but other than that it is too difficult to go into that.) But! Sexual abuse is sexual abuse. Rape is rape. However, consensual sex is consensual sex and hence should be treated as such.

 

I I think that is the right way of dealing with this, not only when it comes to the law, but also when it comes to how you see someone like Will. Nobody complains about a 13 y/o beating off. What exactly is the difference between beating off and having sex with someone else? As long as it is not abuse / lack of maturity/ etc. playing into it. That is not the case with Will. He is a predator and I simply don't see anything wrong with it.

 

Also, if I remember correctly Will was pretty much always safe, wasn't he? He is way more responsible than Matt for example... When I read those scenes with Matt and unprotected sex I was banging my head against the wall and almost took a break from reading because I was so mad at him - especially because I started reading CAP when 9/11 was already being written. Hence I read the dreadful events of the 80's only days/hours before I came to Bloodlines.

 

I might be babbling and wrong but someone please tell me: what's the deal with consensual sex, no matter if at age 15 or 20?

 

Edit:

I think my point is I've known very few boys who didn't think of sex every 3.6 seconds from the 7th grade on.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. ^^

Edited November 10, 2013 by Sammy Blue

[Gene Splicer PHD]

I think my point is I've known very few boys who didn't think of sex every 3.6 seconds from the 7th grade on.

Keep in mind that old JJ has been abused. We haven't been clued in to what that's done to his thinking about sex, other than he was in 'love' with his coach...

[methodwriter85]

I think my point is I've known very few boys who didn't think of sex every 3.6 seconds from the 7th grade on.

 

    And my point is that while JJ is probably curious, he's not at that point where he wants to nail everything cute in sight. Not yet, anyway.

[Sammy Blue]

    And my point is that while JJ is probably curious, he's not at that point where he wants to nail everything cute in sight. Not yet, anyway.

 

When I was about 16/17 I had a boyfriend who was 15. I don't know his story, if there is any in the way that JJ has, but we were together for about 2 or 3 months before we did anything sexual. So at least from personal experience I can say that this is not impossible.

[Kitt]

 

Even at that, the 13 year old who loses his virginity is still not likely to have very many partners by the time he graduates high school. Will exceeded the average number of lifetime partners for the average U.S. male before the end of his 9th grade year and before his 15th birthday.

Very true.  Now, has someone changed the way an AVERAGE is found since I was in school?  For there to be an average number of lifetime partners there has to be people who sit at the extremes of the range. Granted Will is at the high end of the range, All that means is that there are people at the opposite end.

 

 

Perhaps only a total of 15% of the boys under 15 have lost their virginity, that is not necessarily due to a lack of trying. While it is quite probable some of them are because they are "taking it slow"  for others it may very well be a lack of opportunity. 

 

It would be interesting to compare that number to the number of boys in the same age group who CLAIM to have lost their virginity during locker room boasting.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Kitt

[B1ue]

[PrivateTim]

The question should be: is sex consensual or not consensual/harming? Will is very premature and that actually reflects the general prematurity in our time. It is a fact that puberty starts earlier and earlier. He is also good looking, rich, and independent. Everyone would do the same thing or at least something similar in his position.

 

I think Will knows very well that this can't buy him happiness, nothing without love can. Actually, I think, most of his encounters are nothing else than an alternative for masturbation.

 

The question is not is it consensual, the first question is is a 13 year old mature enough to consent, the second question is is promiscuous sex for a 13 year old healthy, not merely sex, but promiscuity.

 

In the Supreme Court ruling that banned execution of juveniles (Roper v Simmons) the court relied on and cited the immaturity of those under 18. Here is a short quote from that decision:

 

 

 

Three general differences between juveniles under 18 and adults demonstrate that juvenile offenders cannot with reliability be classified among the worst offenders. First, as any parent knows and as the scientific and sociological studies respondent and his amici cite tend to confirm, "[a] lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility are found in youth more often than in adults and are more understandable among the young. These qualities often result in impetuous and ill-considered actions and decisions." It has been noted that "adolescents are overrepresented statistically in virtually every category of reckless behavior." In recognition of the comparative immaturity and irresponsibility of juveniles, almost every State prohibits those under 18years of age from voting, serving on juries, or marrying without parental consent.

 

The second area of difference is that juveniles are more vulnerable or susceptible to negative influences and outside pressures, including peer pressure. This is explained in part by the prevailing circumstance that juveniles have less control, or less experience with control, over their own environment.

 

The third broad difference is that the character of a juvenile is not as well formed as that of an adult. The personality traits of juveniles are more transitory, less fixed.

 

These differences render suspect any conclusion that a juvenile falls among the worst offenders. Once the diminished culpability of juveniles is recognized, it is evident that the penological justifications for the death penalty apply to them with lesser force than to adults.

 

The law recognizes that juveniles have a diminished capacity to make good decisions, often make bad ones and are susceptible to outside influences. That is why there are age of consent laws and other laws that deal with the age of majority.

 

 

Age of consent in Germany is 14 <snip for brevity's sake>

 

Nobody complains about a 13 y/o beating off. What exactly is the difference between beating off and having sex with someone else?

 

I might be babbling and wrong but someone please tell me: what's the deal with consensual sex, no matter if at age 15 or 20?

 

Can you point me to the studies that German legislators relied on in deciding that 14 was the appropriate age at which to consent to sex? If you read the footnotes and the amici briefs in Roper, you can read the studies that helped inform the Court on the recklessness of youth.

 

Do you seriously not see a difference in sex with someone else and whacking off? Has anyone ever gotten an STD from their right hand? Been wounded emotionally by their right hand when the right hands ignore them at school the next day? Been outed by their right hand? Gotten their right hand preggers?

 

The "deal" with consensual sex is as it relates to a 15 vs 20 year old is obviously does the 15 year old have the necessary maturity to consent and does a 15 year old have the resources and maturity to deal with the consequences of sex (disease, pregnancy, psychological effects, etc).

[Sammy Blue]

The question is not is it consensual, the first question is is a 13 year old mature enough to consent, the second question is is promiscuous sex for a 13 year old healthy, not merely sex, but promiscuity. (...)

 

I did not elaborate that enough, I am sorry. Of course sex can be consensual yet harming, in cases where one participant is not mature enough to give consent. I would consider these cases as 'harming'. I did point out Germany as one example. There are different laws all over the place. I do not know what studies these are based on, however, I think that this is not the right place to discuss laws in detail (or am I wrong here?).

 

I think what I am trying to say is, whichever law or study you will take, a general rule can never fit the reality of all cases. There are people above 'age of consent' that are not mature enough and there are people below age of consent that are. We could of course discuss which law fits best, but I think we can also agree that no law that simply gives an age will be capable of correctly addressing every case.

 

The "deal" with consensual sex is as it relates to a 15 vs 20 year old is obviously does the 15 year old have the necessary maturity to consent and does a 15 year old have the resources and maturity to deal with the consequences of sex (disease, pregnancy, psychological effects, etc).

 

As far as I remember the past books, in the case here discussed, that is Will, yes, Will has this maturity. He does handle it far better than some of the 'mature, older' characters, such as Matt. That is what I was trying to say. IF this maturity exists, like in Will's case, then what's wrong with it?

 

Do you seriously not see a difference in sex with someone else and whacking off? Has anyone ever gotten an STD from their right hand? Been wounded emotionally by their right hand when the right hands ignore them at school the next day? Been outed by their right hand? Gotten their right hand preggers?

 

Ok, yes, that was a stupid and unfitting observation/remark I was making, you are right. ^^

Edited November 10, 2013 by Sammy Blue

[Mark Arbour]

The question is not is it consensual, the first question is is a 13 year old mature enough to consent, the second question is is promiscuous sex for a 13 year old healthy, not merely sex, but promiscuity.

 

In the Supreme Court ruling that banned execution of juveniles (Roper v Simmons) the court relied on and cited the immaturity of those under 18. Here is a short quote from that decision:

 

 

 

 

The law recognizes that juveniles have a diminished capacity to make good decisions, often make bad ones and are susceptible to outside influences. That is why there are age of consent laws and other laws that deal with the age of majority.

 

 

 

Can you point me to the studies that German legislators relied on in deciding that 14 was the appropriate age at which to consent to sex? If you read the footnotes and the amici briefs in Roper, you can read the studies that helped inform the Court on the recklessness of youth.

 

Do you seriously not see a difference in sex with someone else and whacking off? Has anyone ever gotten an STD from their right hand? Been wounded emotionally by their right hand when the right hands ignore them at school the next day? Been outed by their right hand? Gotten their right hand preggers?

 

The "deal" with consensual sex is as it relates to a 15 vs 20 year old is obviously does the 15 year old have the necessary maturity to consent and does a 15 year old have the resources and maturity to deal with the consequences of sex (disease, pregnancy, psychological effects, etc).

 

What do you have against the left hand?

[methodwriter85]

    Some thoughts:

 

1. I liked how the will was drawn up according to Robbie and Brad. I think they clearly had Gathan's little 100k+ Las Vegas adventure in mind. I also liked how Zach is clearly bothered by the fact that he doesn't get the 500k until 2010, and the other 500k in 2015. I did look into it- Zeke should be 18 and in his first year of college, but I'm not sure about Brent and Trent's ages. I think Trent is a year older than Zach, because when Gathan left his car to Trent which pissed off Zach even though he was only 15 when Gathan left for Stanford. Eh. Brent, Trent, and Zeke don't really seem to matter.

 

2. Ooh, burn on Ella. I think if Robbie actually liked Ella and had good feelings towards her, it might have been different, but she hasn't really done much to be liked. It also seems like Gathan's "do no wrong" status with the family has lost a bit of its luster.

 

3. So Robbie has a 19-year old niece and a 16-year old nephew, with said 16-year old nephew being raised by a religious whacko. Hmm. Also, Robbie's sister disappeared to the excesses of the 1980's similar to Bitty and it's not known whether or not she has any offspring, right?

 

4. I LOVED that Mark made Ethan a Person of Size, and not some gorgeous 15-year old model. Wade was clearly expecting that, because the Danfields are a gorgeous family aka to the Kennedys, and it bothered him that Ethan didn't look like a caramel-dipped version of him and Jeff. Given Ethan's body type, he could also be into wrestling, rugby, an offensive lineman for football, or a shot-put on track.

 

It made Wade seem human for that moment, instead of the calm, rational guy that he usually is. It made me think about a friend I had, who had gotten his mother to pay for him to go on a liquid diet after he, in his own words, "gave up and started living on Oreos." Derek told me that his family was known for their good looks, therefore it wasn't acceptable for him to be fat.

Edited November 11, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Sammy Blue]

3. So Robbie has a 19-year old niece and a 16-year old nephew, with said 16-year old nephew being raised by a religious whacko. Hmm. Also, Robbie's sister disappeared to the excesses of the 1980's similar to Bitty and it's not known whether or not she has any offspring, right?

 

 

I kind of do sense something here. It totally had the alarm bells ringing there. Question is, is the curse of the Hayes family broken after Robbie's death? It does appear to me like that after this chapter. Maybe we will now see how the Hayes family deceases and the Danfields will rise. However, I hope that they will always remain at least a little bit involved. Maybe a nephew of Robbie happens to be gay but has been raised by religious wackos? I wonder about one thing in particular: while it is said that in case his nephew/niece want help they have to reach out for him, it is not being said that there has been any kind of contact. They don't even necessarily know about their family ties to Robbie. There is possibility here, but it's one of those where my instinct tells me 'might be, might not be' - yet I hope for something.

 

4. I LOVED that Mark made Ethan a Person of Size, and not some gorgeous 15-year old model. Wade was clearly expecting that, because the Danfields are a gorgeous family aka to the Kennedys, and it bothered him that Ethan didn't look like a caramel-dipped version of him and Jeff.(...)

 

It made Wade seem human for that moment, instead of the calm, rational guy that he usually is.

 

I was taken aback in the first moment when reading it but then I was like 'FINALLY!!!' When's the last time that we have been interested in a teenage character that has not been downright gorgeous and perfect (physically)? I completely agree.

 

Another thing!

Wade being the guardian for his brother seems like a very interesting idea. It is very unfortunate that we've had roughly 1 million words on paternity in the past books (Will/everyone and Wade/Riley, Wade/family // other). While I can't wait to read about how Wade will handle this, I am afraid of it being tiring to readers (or me) - or it will be cut short of details. I am really thrilled to learn how Mark will solve that problem.

[methodwriter85]

 

I wouldn't interpret anyone's actions (except perhaps Darius') to indicate they don't like Gathan anymore, but I think you're right about Ella. She really burned a bridge with Darius, and the family is going to rally around him.

 

    Yeah, it's subtle but it's definitely there- Ella is not really considered much by the family. The fact that she pissed off Darius AND Will doesn't speak well to her status in the family.

 

 

You raise some great points. I think that's a really good question: how involved in his life will Ethan let Wade get?

 

     That is a good question. You really did throw off everyone's expectations about Ethan. I totally thought Ethan was going to wind up transferring to Menlo and become schoolmates with Will, Marie, and John.

 

      Of course, I can't imagine that Ethan is a total rube- it's not like he would have been completely ignorant of etiquette given that he's going to a private boarding school. Still, as Matt pointed out, Ethan did not grow up like Wade.

 

 

As I mentioned, I think Brad's disclosure served multiple purposes, but it's worth mentioning that by doing that, he really did claim a leadership role in the Hayes family. And that is interesting.

 

      Right. I think Brad is basically planning on helping to lead the Hayes family while Gathan, the presumed heir, matures more. That Gathan assumes leadership of the trust when he turns 25 pretty much says it all.

 

      It'll be interesting to see if this is the Hayes family "send off", so to speak, where we know they're going to be okay, or if the Hayes family will continue to serve as a core CAP family. Given that they're the Hayes and it's in their blood, I'm going to imagine at least a few will wind up joining the War on Terror/Iraq, so that could be interesting.

[Mark Arbour]

      It'll be interesting to see if this is the Hayes family "send off", so to speak, where we know they're going to be okay, or if the Hayes family will continue to serve as a core CAP family.

 

I can't see them not being a core family, since there are so many members that are integral to the story.  If for no other reason, Matt should make sure they're pivotal.

 

Given that they're the Hayes and it's in their blood, I'm going to imagine at least a few will wind up joining the War on Terror/Iraq, so that could be interesting.

 

 

Maybe if you suggest this once every other week, I'll actually do it. 

[Westie]

Right. I think Brad is basically planning on helping to lead the Hayes family while Gathan, the presumed heir, matures more. That Gathan assumes leadership of the trust when he turns 25 pretty much says it all.

How much time do you think Brad actually thinks in those terms "I'm going to lead this family, because until Gathan is older, they are leaderless"?

 

I think Brad is just planning on doing right by the family of his dead partner.  By doing that, they might look to him for aspects of leadership (which I think is Mark's point), but I don't think Brad thinking in terms of the power play right now?