9.11

[mmike1969]

Skylab already fell by this point of the story.

 

Maybe the Russian station perhaps?

 

Or a random meteor.

 

Or a Taliban sniper in Iraq or Afganistan.

 

Or a tour group at Fukishima if Mark wants to extend his life.

Edited December 2, 2013 by mmike1969

[rjo]

Just for your information Stef brought two 16 yo boys cars in If It Fits. Alejandio and Mike's son Casey from Chicago. Casey's mom wasn't happy at first.

[methodwriter85]

    I seriously couldn't get over the raging hypocrisy here- they give out cars like party favors, and they're going to bitch at Will for doing it? Brad got "Sergio" a car without even knowing his last name or that he was biological family. It's right up there with how Stefan didn't like Will being friends with Kai because he might be a hustler. Stefan, who was literally an old pro whore at the age of 16.

 

 

Now I know this is going to shock people, but I don't like Tony.

 

Tony's problem is not that he has a hard time accepting his homosexuality, his problem is he is an asshole.

 

     My problem with Tony is that he's just so generic. He's Italian-American Hot Jock Rich Boy Who's A Raging Closetcase. Tony feels like one of those dime-a-dozen bros that you met in college.There are no interesting quirks about him, or fun personality traits to him like there was to Matt or the many much more interesting characters in CAP. Characters like Matt and Cody leaped off the page in bright colors from the word "go". The only thing Tony has going for him as a character is being a legacy character and having the tragic backstory of having his father die from AIDS when he was 3 years old.

 

     He's been in a general holding pattern as a character through three stories, and I really, really hope that this means that Tony is finally going to develop into something more interesting than what he's been now that he's openly admitting he's gay. Maybe he'll get really into theater or something. ANYTHING so that he's more interesting than Italian-American Hot Jock Rich Boy Who's A Raging Closetcase.

 

I have no idea on the legal ramification, but I wasn't really talking about those. I mean, if Gathan wanted to spend the rest of his life trying to exert control over Zach, he's free to do so until someone stops him. But in this case, he stopped himself, which is growth for him that I liked to see.

 

     I do like Gathan. I'm glad to see that he's growing up. You could definitely see the beginnings of a really good man in Poor Man's Son, and I'm glad to see that he's starting to fulfill that.

Edited December 2, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Hermetically Sealed]

  I seriously couldn't get over the raging hypocrisy here- they give out cars like party favors, and they're going to bitch at Will for doing it? Brad got "Sergio" a car without even knowing his last name or that he was biological family.

 

 

He was an adult, in college.  Zach is a minor, in high school, and still under his parents' guardianship.  That is a fairly significant difference in situations.  Will's actions basically told Wally and Clara "you don't matter in the rearing of your own child."  You'd have probably had a better argument using Mike's son, who was also a minor, than an adult.

[methodwriter85]

   Okay, so this isn't exactly about CAP, but I thought it brought up themes that we've talked about in terms of JJ, and how he needs to maintain a family-friendly, Disney image because those who don't (like Johnny Weir) often get punished in the sport.

 

    Joe Jonas: My Life As A Jonas Brother

 

     I thought it was interesting- the tension between being a teenager/early 20-something and all the hormones and urges that go into that age, and having to seem like a sexless, purity ring type because that's what your adoring public expects out of you. It was funny that Joe all but said, "I lost my virginity at 20, but my virginity was incredibly technical", which often seems like the case for the "abstinence" types.

 

     It also got me when he talked about having to be around watching his friend Demi Lovato implode on herself, but not being able to convey any of it to anybody because he had a "brand" to protect.

 

      It'll be interesting to see what happens to JJ when he moves into the 17-19 range...right now he doesn't seem to be chafing against the "good boy" image all that much yet (we haven't seen JJ so much as drink a beer yet), but I wonder what happens in a few years.

Edited December 2, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Sammy Blue]

@Tomy: I don't think the issue was with cheating (did they even have a commitment?) or why he did that. The problem was Tony inviting Will and then fucking with others instead of with him. That does make him an asshole to me, at least in that situation. He might change though.

 

@Alistair as Will's future mister: They had this erotic scene in the jaccuzi, right? That's one of my favorite sexual encounters of Will. I have been hoping for Alistair to play a bigger role for a long time. He would definitely be able to call Will on his BS.

[Daddydavek]

My problem with Tony is that I just don't like him or his mom.  While he may push all the right buttons for Will sexually, he is no where near his class as a person who cares about people and never will be IMHO.  I think others have already stated that Will needs someone who engages him intellectually, socially, and physically.  Will is always going to be a challenge and he really needs an equal to provide him some balance.

 

Kitt pointed out that labeling Zach a sociopath based on the evidence to date would be a reach and I certainly agree with that.  

 

In my mind, the car was the vehicle Mark used to have the successor guardianship changed and way too much has been made of it....

[PrivateTim]

Just for your information Stef brought two 16 yo boys cars in If It Fits. Alejandio and Mike's son Casey from Chicago. Casey's mom wasn't happy at first.

 

Yes, but Alejandro was in Stef's care and he didn't step in between Alejandro and his parents or the parents wishes.

 

Casey's mother's protest was half hearted, although I do think he should have run it past her first.

Edited December 2, 2013 by PrivateTim

[sat8997]

In my mind, the car was the vehicle Mark used to have the successor guardianship changed and way too much has been made of it....

 

+10,000

[B1ue]

In my mind, the car was the vehicle Mark used to have the successor guardianship changed and way too much has been made of it....

It's relevant when discussing a larger character trait. The issue I take with it (beyond my involuntary eye-roll when the word "need" gets thrown around) is that Will didn't really seem to do this because he thought so highly of Zach. He did it, seemingly, to screw with Gathan and, to a lesser extent, Brad. He also blatantly disrespected Wally and Clara in the matter of raising their own kid, which is a pretty big deal in my world-view, short of child abuse, which denial of car privileges doesn't really qualify as. I will agree that they were probably in the wrong on this call, but that doesn't mean Will had the right or duty to interfere without consequences. He also made it clear that no one but him would be allowed to have controlling influence over Zach's life (we can see in his mind that he didn't actually mean it, but it's still what he said).

 

This is important because, when placed alongside how he's developed as a character up to this point, he seems even more like a loose cannon. It was one thing when he was taking control over his own life. Even at his young age, I can't exactly fault him for that, provided he's up to handling that responsibility. But now he's bucking authority for other people, whether those people asked him to step in or not. I don't find it surprising, but I am interested to see how it further plays out.

 

Starting with the first, he ran a real risk of pissing Gathan off for life, and he may yet have done so. I'm guessing he did not, since Gathan recognized that he himself would not be a good custodian over Zach because of this incident, but that doesn't mean he's going to be a fan of Will rubbing his face into it in that way.

 

Further, Wally and Clara would be well within their rights to ask that Will not ever step foot in their house again, because they can't trust him to not interfere with the relationship they have with the rest of their children. They may not take it that far (I doubt they will, really), but I wouldn't find it surprising if they're never comfortable dealing with Will ever again. And why should they be? He just proved that not only does he have a different value system form their own, but that he doesn't much respect theirs. I've seem branches of family split up for decades over slights like that.

 

Getting back to Will's character, what's going to happen the next time he's put in a situation where he witnesses someone make a wrong choice that has no impact on his life? Given the frequent invocations of Tonto, and this, it seems like the answer will be, "Fix it, whether anyone wants me to or not." Except, unlike Tonto, he's not going to confront the issue directly. He's going to do an end-run around any opposition, do whatever he pleases without regard to consequences for himself or anyone else, and not even try to convince others that his point of view is correct. It makes sense for his character that he trusts no adults to be amendable to reason, but acting like this isn't going to help. If anything, it's going to prove to everyone that they are justified in their distrust of Will.

[methodwriter85]

It's relevant when discussing a larger character trait. The issue I take with it (beyond my involuntary eye-roll when the word "need" gets thrown around) is that Will didn't really seem to do this because he thought so highly of Zach. He did it, seemingly, to screw with Gathan and, to a lesser extent, Brad. He also blatantly disrespected Wally and Clara in the matter of raising their own kid, which is a pretty big deal in my world-view, short of child abuse, which denial of car privileges doesn't really qualify as. I will agree that they were probably in the wrong on this call, but that doesn't mean Will had the right or duty to interfere without consequences. He also made it clear that no one but him would be allowed to have controlling influence over Zach's life (we can see in his mind that he didn't actually mean it, but it's still what he said).

 

This is important because, when placed alongside how he's developed as a character up to this point, he seems even more like a loose cannon. It was one thing when he was taking control over his own life. Even at his young age, I can't exactly fault him for that, provided he's up to handling that responsibility. But now he's bucking authority for other people, whether those people asked him to step in or not. I don't find it surprising, but I am interested to see how it further plays out.

 

Starting with the first, he ran a real risk of pissing Gathan off for life, and he may yet have done so. I'm guessing he did not, since Gathan recognized that he himself would not be a good custodian over Zach because of this incident, but that doesn't mean he's going to be a fan of Will rubbing his face into it in that way.

 

Further, Wally and Clara would be well within their rights to ask that Will not ever step foot in their house again, because they can't trust him to not interfere with the relationship they have with the rest of their children. They may not take it that far (I doubt they will, really), but I wouldn't find it surprising if they're never comfortable dealing with Will ever again. And why should they be? He just proved that not only does he have a different value system form their own, but that he doesn't much respect theirs. I've seem branches of family split up for decades over slights like that.

 

Getting back to Will's character, what's going to happen the next time he's put in a situation where he witnesses someone make a wrong choice that has no impact on his life? Given the frequent invocations of Tonto, and this, it seems like the answer will be, "Fix it, whether anyone wants me to or not." Except, unlike Tonto, he's not going to confront the issue directly. He's going to do an end-run around any opposition, do whatever he pleases without regard to consequences for himself or anyone else, and not even try to convince others that his point of view is correct. It makes sense for his character that he trusts no adults to be amendable to reason, but acting like this isn't going to help. If anything, it's going to prove to everyone that they are justified in their distrust of Will.

 

      That is an incredibly good and persuasive analysis, and I'd love to read Claire saying as much to Will, similar to how Claire chastised Brad for his rant at Jim in Millennium.

 

      I really want Mark's thoughts on this, because you're pointing at something that kind of contradicts what Mark has set up as a "truth" to Will's character- that while he and Brad are both massive control freaks, the difference is that Will is a massive control freak about himself, and doesn't try to interfere/control other people's lives.

[PrivateTim]

It's relevant when discussing a larger character trait. The issue I take with it (beyond my involuntary eye-roll when the word "need" gets thrown around) is that Will didn't really seem to do this because he thought so highly of Zach. He did it, seemingly, to screw with Gathan and, to a lesser extent, Brad. He also blatantly disrespected Wally and Clara in the matter of raising their own kid, which is a pretty big deal in my world-view, short of child abuse, which denial of car privileges doesn't really qualify as. I will agree that they were probably in the wrong on this call, but that doesn't mean Will had the right or duty to interfere without consequences. He also made it clear that no one but him would be allowed to have controlling influence over Zach's life (we can see in his mind that he didn't actually mean it, but it's still what he said).

 

This is important because, when placed alongside how he's developed as a character up to this point, he seems even more like a loose cannon. It was one thing when he was taking control over his own life. Even at his young age, I can't exactly fault him for that, provided he's up to handling that responsibility. But now he's bucking authority for other people, whether those people asked him to step in or not. I don't find it surprising, but I am interested to see how it further plays out.

 

Starting with the first, he ran a real risk of pissing Gathan off for life, and he may yet have done so. I'm guessing he did not, since Gathan recognized that he himself would not be a good custodian over Zach because of this incident, but that doesn't mean he's going to be a fan of Will rubbing his face into it in that way.

 

Further, Wally and Clara would be well within their rights to ask that Will not ever step foot in their house again, because they can't trust him to not interfere with the relationship they have with the rest of their children. They may not take it that far (I doubt they will, really), but I wouldn't find it surprising if they're never comfortable dealing with Will ever again. And why should they be? He just proved that not only does he have a different value system form their own, but that he doesn't much respect theirs. I've seem branches of family split up for decades over slights like that.

 

Getting back to Will's character, what's going to happen the next time he's put in a situation where he witnesses someone make a wrong choice that has no impact on his life? Given the frequent invocations of Tonto, and this, it seems like the answer will be, "Fix it, whether anyone wants me to or not." Except, unlike Tonto, he's not going to confront the issue directly. He's going to do an end-run around any opposition, do whatever he pleases without regard to consequences for himself or anyone else, and not even try to convince others that his point of view is correct. It makes sense for his character that he trusts no adults to be amendable to reason, but acting like this isn't going to help. If anything, it's going to prove to everyone that they are justified in their distrust of Will.

 

Dat right.

[Henson]

The car wasn't a huge, glaring character flaw, or an intentional diss of Wally and Clara (does he even really know them?)

 

The car was the fabulously, unbelievably wealthy boy's equivalent of helping his friend sneak out of the house past curfew.

 

Will he come to the realization that there were consequences he hadn't considered someday? Probably. It's called growing. 14 year old boys do that.

[Henson]

These people buy cars like the rest of us buy iPods. It's a matter of perspective, which a boy in Will's family could not possibly have. He doesn't even understand how big a decision a car is to people like Wally and Clara - or to most of us here. It doesn't register, because he does not understand working class realities. This isn't a big deal to him. If he bought the kid a house, maybe...

[PrivateTim]

The car was the fabulously, unbelievably wealthy boy's equivalent of helping his friend sneak out of the house past curfew.

 

Will he come to the realization that there were consequences he hadn't considered someday? Probably. It's called growing. 14 year old boys do that.

 

The car was NOT the fabulously, unbelievably wealthy boy's equivalent of helping his friend sneak out of the house past curfew, it was the fabulously, unbelievably wealthy boy's equivalent of walking in the front door and saying, "forget your curfew, what do they know, let's go."

 

The whole point has been that as a 15 year old Will, or any 15 year old for that matter, does not have the maturity to make that decision. That is why we give them time to grow up.

 

He doesn't even understand how big a decision a car is to people like Wally and Clara - or to most of us here. It doesn't register, because he does not understand working class realities. This isn't a big deal to him. If he bought the kid a house, maybe...

 

A new car probably costs as much as a house in Claremont, OH.

 

The fact that he does not understand IS the point, it is that lack of maturity that is being discussed.

[Mark Arbour]

Some of you are arguing that Will doesn't respect Wally and Clara's parental authority, and that he's wrong for buying Zach a car without even talking to them about it.  Some of you are arguing that for Will, a car is so much chump change, with the implication that there's a huge chasm here between his perception of the car (someone from one of the wealthiest families in the country) and Wally and Clara (a blue-collar guy and his wife).  I think you're all right, but none of that explains why Will did what he did. 

 

Will saw Zach struggling against parents who were being irrationally restrictive, and that's something that resonates with Will.  He sees it as a charitable act, not because he's giving Zach a car, but because he's helping Zach get the same kind of control he fought so hard for: he sees Zach as a kindred spirit.  And he's completely willing to get in Gathan's face about this because Gathan is part of the team holding Zach down, as Will sees it. 

 

I don't think that Will is overly concerned with what Wally and Clara think, because I think if we were to dive into his mind and dice through his prejudices, he'd see them as incredibly provincial, uneducated people, and he'd have a hard time respecting their intellectual acumen and their ability to figure the situation with Zach out.  He probably mirrors what JJ thinks of them, only JJ would think it and laugh at them behind their backs with no pangs of conscience about being a total snob;  while Will would be upset to discover he really feels that way. 

[Daddydavek]

There!  That said, can we move on and go to Hawaii? 

[B1ue]

I don't think that Will is overly concerned with what Wally and Clara think, because I think if we were to dive into his mind and dice through his prejudices, he'd see them as incredibly provincial, uneducated people, and he'd have a hard time respecting their intellectual acumen and their ability to figure the situation with Zach out.  He probably mirrors what JJ thinks of them, only JJ would think it and laugh at them behind their backs with no pangs of conscience about being a total snob;  while Will would be upset to discover he really feels that way. 

And to a certain extent, he's even correct to feel that way. When I said they don't have the same morality as Will, that wasn't a slam on either party. Will, and now Zach, lives in a completely different world than they, of course he thinks differently. I should also clarify that I have no actual objections to his actions, but the manner in which he did them. And in fairness, that may be due to my own basic personality. Specifically, I always seek to compromise, because I know I have no control over anyone else's actions, and that I can't get rid or overpower everyone that annoys me. Will actually can safely ignore everyone with basically no consequences, so he does so.

 

Usually, I have a pretty good bead on Will. "What would I do in this situation?" has been a fairly accurate way to guess which way he'd jump. Not this time. Because I would, in Will's status as an semi-adult, have encouraged Zach to confront his parents directly. I'd have had JP or Claire moderate (as much to keep my temper under control as to be on my side), but I'd have specicifally excluded Brad and Gathan, and made it all about Zach and his parents. And I'd have let Zach do the majority of the talking, letting him explain his reasons, and hoping that my presence and my specific promise to him that I had his back would allow him to make his arguments rationally. And it's quite possible that if he'd told them about the great hardship he was putting his host family under by having them cart him hither and yon, and combined it with a plea that while he appreciated their charity, he didn't really want to depend on it (specifically invoking the word "charity" is important), they might have caved. Or possibly compromised by giving him an advance on his inheritance, but telling him they were taking the money for the car out of his monthly allowance. And both Claire and JP are experienced enough at parenting to have offered that compromise if it hadn't occurred to any of the Hayes on their own.

 

Gathan wouldn't have compromised or caved under any circumstances, which is why he'd have waited outside.

 

And, in the end, if they still refused to even listen to Zach, then I'd have bought him the car. Because he'd have at least given them the chance to discuss it, and prove they could be rational even outside their own worldview. And who knows? Maybe Zach would have been the one to back down, once he realized that they were serious about him and his siblings not growing up to believe money solved all issues, and that charity was something to be depended on.

 

To be fair, I do get Will's motives. Even if you had not articulated them so clearly, Mark, the story itself makes them quite clear. If I have not been clear on this point, from my view it's a perfectly logical extension of how Will has been developed, right down to his basic distrust (and thus unwillingness to seek compromise) of any and all over age 20. To be even more clear, he's earned that distrust, as Claire, Isiodore, Stef, Brad, Robbie, and Jeanine have all to his eyes proven themselves unreliable. I just want to see the fallout, and I also wanted to articulate my interest in this development, and where I saw it going.

Edited December 3, 2013 by B1ue

[Mark Arbour]

And to a certain extent, he's even correct to feel that way. When I said they don't have the same morality as Will, that wasn't a slam on either party. Will, and now Zach, lives in a completely different world than they, of course he thinks differently. I should also clarify that I have no actual objections to his actions, but the manner in which he did them. And in fairness, that may be due to my own basic personality. Specifically, I always seek to compromise, because I know I have no control over anyone else's actions, and that I can't get rid or overpower everyone that annoys me. Will actually can safely ignore everyone with basically no consequences, so he does so.

 

Usually, I have a pretty good bead on Will. "What would I do in this situation?" has been a fairly accurate way to guess which way he'd jump. Not this time. Because I would, in Will's status as an semi-adult, have encouraged Zach to confront his parents directly. I'd have had JP or Claire moderate (as much to keep my temper under control as to be on my side), but I'd have specicifally excluded Brad and Gathan, and made it all about Zach and his parents. And I'd have let Zach do the majority of the talking, letting him explain his reasons, and hoping that my presence and my specific promise to him that I had his back would allow him to make his arguments rationally. And it's quite possible that if he'd told them about the great hardship he was putting his host family under by having them cart him hither and yon, and combined it with a plea that while he appreciated their charity, he didn't really want to depend on it (specifically invoking the word "charity" is important), they might have caved. Or possibly compromised by giving him an advance on his inheritance, but telling him they were taking the money for the car out of his monthly allowance. And both Claire and JP are experienced enough at parenting to have offered that compromise if it hadn't occurred to any of the Hayes on their own.

 

Gathan wouldn't have compromised or caved under any circumstances, which is why he'd have waited outside.

 

And, in the end, if they still refused to even listen to Zach, then I'd have bought him the car. Because he'd have at least given them the chance to discuss it, and prove they could be rational even outside their own worldview. And who knows? Maybe Zach would have been the one to back down, once he realized that they were serious about him and his siblings not growing up to believe money solved all issues, and that charity was something to be depended on.

 

To be fair, I do get Will's motives. Even if you had not articulated them so clearly, Mark, the story itself makes them quite clear. If I have not been clear on this point, from my view it's a perfectly logical extension of how Will has been developed, right down to his basic distrust (and thus unwillingness to seek compromise) of any and all over age 20. To be even more clear, he's earned that distrust, as Claire, Isiodore, Stef, Brad, Robbie, and Jeanine have all to his eyes proven themselves unreliable. I just want to see the fallout, and I also wanted to articulate my interest in this development, and where I saw it going.

 

First, I have to say that I love it when you post.  It gives me almost as much pleasure as thinking about Tim's reaction when I write Tony into a chapter. 

 

I respect your willingness to seek out compromise.  That generates better solutions and happier people.  But that's not one of Will's fortes.  I think that you really did hit the nail on the head when you talked about his basic distrust of those over 20, which I'll define more clearly to be parental types.  The scenario you described would probably be the preferred way to approach it, but I can't see Will doing that.  I think he'd almost feel like he was conspiring with the enemy, since he can view those parental types as a conflict waiting to happen. 

 

We don't really know what Zach said to his parents prior to this, but we do know that he talked about it quite a bit, since Gathan bitched about it when he was arguing with Will.  I suspect he made the points you mentioned, perhaps not as eloquently, but then again, he was talking to Wally and Clara. 

 

I think its also important to look at what we know about Wally and Clara's basic values/motives.  They seem to have a "money is the root of all evil" theme going (you'd think Tim would hate them, not Tony ), and much of their fears for their kids revolve around them having access to lots of money and doing stupid things with it.  That's going to fall pretty flat when spieled out to an opportunist like Zach, or to someone like Will, who views money as, among other things, a source of freedom.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[methodwriter85]

 

I respect your willingness to seek out compromise.  That generates better solutions and happier people.  But that's not one of Will's fortes.

 

    It'll be interesting to see if that changes as Will gets older. He very much sees things in black and white, probably even more than Brad did as a teenager. Hopefully as he grows up he's start to see the grey and stop thinking that people are either all right or all wrong.

 

 

I don't think that Will is overly concerned with what Wally and Clara think, because I think if we were to dive into his mind and dice through his prejudices, he'd see them as incredibly provincial, uneducated people, and he'd have a hard time respecting their intellectual acumen and their ability to figure the situation with Zach out.  He probably mirrors what JJ thinks of them, only JJ would think it and laugh at them behind their backs with no pangs of conscience about being a total snob;  while Will would be upset to discover he really feels that way.

 

     I think Will really does believe in social justice like Tonto did. I just don't think he's been around enough to really get it. I would have thought that the homeless shelter might have been enough for Will, but if you noticed, he only really related to the guys that were cute and he was attracted to.

 

     Maybe Will can do a semester abroad in Haiti or something in college and get some real perspective on the whole thing? Or spend a spring break working with Habitat for Humanity? It really was an eye-opening experience. And my friends who did their study abroad in a 3rd world country said they were changed forever.

 

     As for JJ...I feel like you're setting him up for an eventual classic "rich snob meets blue-collar hottie and falls madly in love" story with all the bits about how elitist he is. If said blue-collar hottie looks like circa 2006 Channing Tatum in Step Up, I'm all for it. LOL. I'd recommend the same kind of character building volunteer work/missions for him, but I really can't see JJ doing any of that. Will, yes. JJ- his idea of sacrifice would be shopping at the Claremont Outlet Shoppes and actually wearing an outfit from there.

Edited December 3, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

I think its also important to look at what we know about Wally and Clara's basic values/motives.  They seem to have a "money is the root of all evil" theme going (you'd think Tim would hate them, not Tony ), and much of their fears for their kids revolve around them having access to lots of money and doing stupid things with it.  That's going to fall pretty flat when spieled out to an opportunist like Zach, or to someone like Will, who views money as, among other things, a source of freedom.

 

Don't you misquote Scripture to me, especially not Timothy

 

 

1 Timothy 6:10  For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

 

It is the love of money that leads people down the wrong path, look at what happened to Gathan when he first got money. Wally & Clara are right to be suspicious of what happens to people when they come into money because it changes them. The examples of how the wealthy in Claremont behaved before JP got back involved probably influenced their opinions as well.

 

The bitch about not trusting adults is sooner or later you become one.

 

People who get things too easily do not appreciate them as much as people who work for them.

[rjo]

Well Tim I agree with you. However, I think what Mark meant was Clara and Wally think it is just the money , not as St Paul says the love of money. This story in filled with people who got money and crushed and burnt. ( Sorry about that, I was just thinking about Paul Walker. )  Brian, Jeff Hayes and Gathan couldn't handle it. However, we also have  three understanding examples of people who could Stef, Robbie  and Isidore. Maybe the French just can do it better than the rest of them. Honestly, I think it has to do with the character of the person. Money can be a tool to use for good or destroy the person.

Edited December 4, 2013 by rjo

[PrivateTim]

Some interesting things in the new chapter and I'll lay aside my "Tony must die" shtick for a few moments. I don't like Tony and think he is poisonous, just like some people think Zach is poisonous, but my desire for Skylab to fall on him is more just me having fun than anything.

 

But on the serious side of the story I don't buy the "guys were just hook-ups" bit for Tony and that was why he treated Will like crap on the float trip and did his thing with Rick. If Tony hadn't treated Will the way he did in Rome, maybe I could have bought that line, but in Rome it would have been (and was) pretty obvious to anyone that Will and Tony were like a couple in love and in fact Tony did declare his love for Will. A guy just doing hook ups with guys doesn't act like Tony did in Rome.

 

The funniest, most ironic part of the chapter was Will telling Tony who he could and could not sleep with. Can you imagine how Will would react to someone else, JJ for example, telling Will who he could and could not sleep with? Will would immediately go sleep with them just to spite the person, somewhat like Will did in Norway.

 

Some here think I don't like Will and they couldn't be more wrong. If I didn't like Will I wouldn't hate Tony and call for his death at every opportunity. I wouldn't give a damn, I'd think the two little pricks deserved each other. But I don't think Will is prick, I do think he is far too young to be making a lot of the life decisions he does and his continuing disrespect and disregard for Wally & Clara and interfering with their rights to raise their minor son as they see best troubles me. Will might think they are wrong in how they are doing, but failing to recognize their right to do so speaks to his immaturity. It especially bothers me that there are the young men at Father Tim's ministry who truly have been abused and abandoned by parents who don't give a rip about them and Will wastes his money on someone in an elite prep school who has parents that love and care about his welfare and make what they think are the right decisions for him. I think Will has misdirected priorities.

 

As I said in my review of this chapter, despite the fact that to us, the 9-11 "planes hit" chapter was almost three months ago (9-9-2013), in CAP time, it hasn't even been a month yet since Robbie died. Its just been 23 days since the towers fell so I wouldn't expect Brad, or anyone for that matter, to have moved on or been healed so quickly. At the three month mark, maybe you only think about it 5 or 6 times a day as opposed to every 5 or 6 minutes, but it really takes time for grief to be processed.

 

I am not sure how much longer we have in 9-11, but I hope long enough to learn more about Wade's half brother, long enough to have some fun in Hawaii and long enough to see Tony die a slow, painful death (you didn't really think I was going to abandon the "Tony must die" theme so easily did you?) 

Edited December 6, 2013 by PrivateTim

[mmike1969]

To be honest, I was expecting Tony to die a horribly painful and slow death in this latest chapter.

[rjo]

I don't think having sex with Will can be that bad.