9.11

[mmike1969]

So besides the fact these people can't cook, who won the bet?

[PrivateTim]

Here is my review of Chapter 57 and Mark's reply:

 

still think Lark is full of crap. To me if Will was this great guy who really wanted to right injustice and help the oppressed he'd be helping the guys at Father Tim's Center who have really endured abuse and been rejected by their families. If not buying your son a car at his elite prep school is abuse, then they are going to need to jail a whole lot of people. That Will doesn't recognize Wally and Clara's right to parent their child as they see best is as I have said before, disturbing. It means he really does NOT understand right and wrong. He doesn't get that buying Zach a car was wrong, because it isn't his right to make that decision.

It also speaks volumes about his maturity, or lack thereof, that he has so little respect for his elders. It is okay to be mad at Brad for supposed slights, but disrespecting others, maybe because of their education, values or net worth does not bode well for Will's future development.
 

 

Reply from Mark Arbour (author)

 

I don't equate respect of parental authority as being an indicator of right or wrong, or maturity, especially in this case. There are certainly more factors involved than that. Will is definitely clouding his own decisions with his own perspectives and experiences, so in that regard, I think the maturity card does come into play. It takes a while for some people to learn to think objectively, and to subordinate their emotions, and some never get there (as some threads on this very website will attest. ;-) ).

 

I post this because I want to be clear on what I mean and what I see as a huge flaw in Will right now, partly due to his immaturity and that self assured arrogance that they (teens) know best on pretty much everything.

 

I do equate respect to morality (the right and wrong of things) and respect for parental authority, a parents right to raise their child as they see fit, is just one aspect of it.

 

It is wrong (immoral) to not respect someone and treat them badly especially when they have never done anything wrong to you or to others. Will's disregard for Wally & Clara as people and then going behind their backs to give Zach a car is wrong. I don't car how you spin it or try to turn it into a positive for Will it isn't. This isn't Will seeing some great injustice and then righting it. It is Will wanting to stick a thumb in Wally & Clara's eye, but Gathan and his Father as well. The very impetuousness of the act shows Will's immaturity.

 

Why can't Will, who ran away, felt unloved and abandoned by his parents, not empathize more with the young men at Father Tim's who truly are unloved and abandoned by their parents and do nice things for them? The money Will spent on a car for Zach would have done much more good spread over the 30 to 40 guys at Fr Tim's mission. That would have showed maturity to me and an understanding of what injustice looks like.

 

Maybe I take it more to heart because I have to work with a good number of Wills and grew up with a good number of Wills, who have no concept of the world is supposed to work and no concept of reality. The last chapter, Will not understanding how to make breakfast brought it home even more. He is used to walking into a kitchen with servants who fix his meals and when they are at Escorial, having the meals served by more servants like it is early 20th century Britain. I am sure he treats them well, but he still thinks of them as inferiors. That isn't immaturity as it is arrogance and Will has arrogance in spades; slightly cocky can be cute, arrogance is ugly. His disregard for adults in general is another aspect of the arrogance.

 

Switching off Will and onto Brad in this new chapter, I find it interesting that a company like Triton would a chief of security like they do. CT was one of the earlier states to pass gay rights protection in the early 90's. I am not sure that the Board is the proper venue to address the issues. I'd have the security chief in a conference room with the VP of HR, Director of HR, Jordan and Brad and start the tortuously long route that large corporations have to go to fire someone. Long gone are the days of summarily dismissing someone. It starts with a suspension pending investigation, an investigation not just of what the suspended party did, but how did you handle previous, similar violations of company policy and law and then pray the suspended party is not a protected class themselves. Of course I can't really complain, it is such situations that get lawyers their next new car or trip to Tahiti.

[Mark Arbour]

Here is my review of Chapter 57 and Mark's reply:

 

still think Lark is full of crap. To me if Will was this great guy who really wanted to right injustice and help the oppressed he'd be helping the guys at Father Tim's Center who have really endured abuse and been rejected by their families. If not buying your son a car at his elite prep school is abuse, then they are going to need to jail a whole lot of people. That Will doesn't recognize Wally and Clara's right to parent their child as they see best is as I have said before, disturbing. It means he really does NOT understand right and wrong. He doesn't get that buying Zach a car was wrong, because it isn't his right to make that decision.

 

It also speaks volumes about his maturity, or lack thereof, that he has so little respect for his elders. It is okay to be mad at Brad for supposed slights, but disrespecting others, maybe because of their education, values or net worth does not bode well for Will's future development.

 

 

I post this because I want to be clear on what I mean and what I see as a huge flaw in Will right now, partly due to his immaturity and that self assured arrogance that they (teens) know best on pretty much everything.

 

I do equate respect to morality (the right and wrong of things) and respect for parental authority, a parents right to raise their child as they see fit, is just one aspect of it.

 

It is wrong (immoral) to not respect someone and treat them badly especially when they have never done anything wrong to you or to others. Will's disregard for Wally & Clara as people and then going behind their backs to give Zach a car is wrong. I don't car how you spin it or try to turn it into a positive for Will it isn't. This isn't Will seeing some great injustice and then righting it. It is Will wanting to stick a thumb in Wally & Clara's eye, but Gathan and his Father as well. The very impetuousness of the act shows Will's immaturity.

 

Why can't Will, who ran away, felt unloved and abandoned by his parents, not empathize more with the young men at Father Tim's who truly are unloved and abandoned by their parents and do nice things for them? The money Will spent on a car for Zach would have done much more good spread over the 30 to 40 guys at Fr Tim's mission. That would have showed maturity to me and an understanding of what injustice looks like.

 

 

In your world, right and wrong are evidently much more obvious than in mine.     I'm not sure it's fair to bludgeon Will for not doing more for Father Tim and his guys, since his family has done quite a bit for that organization, and Will spent some time volunteering there (we really don't know how much since I didn't delineate his hours).  I think he's pretty sensitive to the fate of those guys. 

 

You have slotted Will's purchase of a car in for Zach as a charitable act (comparing it to the Mission) and that's really not where Will is at on this.  He bought the car for Zach as a present, a gift, for a number of reasons.  The primary two would be because he slept with Zach (and Will tends to let his dick lead his heart...and sometimes his head) and because he sees Zach struggling with his parents in a similar way to how he had to struggle with his.  To him, he's helping out a friend, and righting an injustice as he sees it.  That may very well be wrong, but I don't think the motives are evil.  I can see how you can interpret that as a lack of maturity, since Will really didn't factor in Wally and Clara at all, but personally I don't think that's the best descriptor.  I think it's sufficient to say that Will has a general lack of respect for Wally and Clara (see comments on that below).  

 

Maybe I take it more to heart because I have to work with a good number of Wills and grew up with a good number of Wills, who have no concept of the world is supposed to work and no concept of reality. The last chapter, Will not understanding how to make breakfast brought it home even more. He is used to walking into a kitchen with servants who fix his meals and when they are at Escorial, having the meals served by more servants like it is early 20th century Britain. I am sure he treats them well, but he still thinks of them as inferiors. That isn't immaturity as it is arrogance and Will has arrogance in spades; slightly cocky can be cute, arrogance is ugly. His disregard for adults in general is another aspect of the arrogance.

 

 

 

I think this is a much better way to look at things, and I think that really is the unspoken issue at this point.  There's definitely some socio-economic-education level issues going on here.  Will is looking at Wally and Clara as if they're uneducated country bumpkins who don't have a clue about Zach and the world he's living in.  Wally is a blue-collar garbage man who probably has a high school education.  They're clearly not very sophisticated.  I think you can certainly nail Will on being arrogant when it comes to them. 

 

 

Switching off Will and onto Brad in this new chapter, I find it interesting that a company like Triton would a chief of security like they do. CT was one of the earlier states to pass gay rights protection in the early 90's. I am not sure that the Board is the proper venue to address the issues. I'd have the security chief in a conference room with the VP of HR, Director of HR, Jordan and Brad and start the tortuously long route that large corporations have to go to fire someone. Long gone are the days of summarily dismissing someone. It starts with a suspension pending investigation, an investigation not just of what the suspended party did, but how did you handle previous, similar violations of company policy and law and then pray the suspended party is not a protected class themselves. Of course I can't really complain, it is such situations that get lawyers their next new car or trip to Tahiti.

 

 

 

That's pretty funny, and pretty astute.  Do remember, though, that how easy it is to fire people can vary by state.  Regardless, we'll see how that drama unfolds. 

[sat8997]

Shoes. From now on the only gifts your characters are allowed to give to each other are shoes. Occasionally boots. But don't plan on going hog-wild. Heel height will be strictly controlled.

[mmike1969]

Except Will has a thing about cutting shoes in half once and a while.

[methodwriter85]

Thanks for the review. I agree with you regarding changes in the country, and the adult perspective. Right now, we're dealing with the immediate aftermath. The next story will pick up on those deeper changes we faced.

 

   I gotta admit, I'm pretty interested in the Triton stuff, as well as seeing what happens to Claremont as defense really takes off. (They have a branch of Triton there or some kind of new defense manufacturing plant there, right?) I'm also excited to see how Wade and Matt adjust to life outside of Stanford.

 

I think you can certainly nail Will on being arrogant when it comes to them.

 

    I'm really hoping that Will has his "Aha" moment about this, like he did when he realized that Robbie wasn't the devil in Paternity. For someone who started off the story basically calling out his family for being snobs, he himself hasn't been called out on his own snotty behavior.

 

Shoes. From now on the only gifts your characters are allowed to give to each other are shoes. Occasionally boots. But don't plan on going hog-wild. Heel height will be strictly controlled.

 

     Just for the record...I fucking LOVE Llamo Sheepskin Mocassins:

 

 

     Sheepskin mocassins were really popular at my school in the late '00s, but it seems to have been more of a regional thing, as I remember talking to people from Minnesota who had no clue about this.

[Mark Arbour]

Shoes. From now on the only gifts your characters are allowed to give to each other are shoes. Occasionally boots. But don't plan on going hog-wild. Heel height will be strictly controlled.

 

No.  If they did, they'd end up buying someone Gucci shoes, when they should have bought them 9 West and given the balance to charity.

[Northern Dutch Guy]

Here is my review of Chapter 57 and Mark's reply:

 

still think Lark is full of crap. To me if Will was this great guy who really wanted to right injustice and help the oppressed he'd be helping the guys at Father Tim's Center who have really endured abuse and been rejected by their families. If not buying your son a car at his elite prep school is abuse, then they are going to need to jail a whole lot of people. That Will doesn't recognize Wally and Clara's right to parent their child as they see best is as I have said before, disturbing. It means he really does NOT understand right and wrong. He doesn't get that buying Zach a car was wrong, because it isn't his right to make that decision.

 

It also speaks volumes about his maturity, or lack thereof, that he has so little respect for his elders. It is okay to be mad at Brad for supposed slights, but disrespecting others, maybe because of their education, values or net worth does not bode well for Will's future development.

 

 

I post this because I want to be clear on what I mean and what I see as a huge flaw in Will right now, partly due to his immaturity and that self assured arrogance that they (teens) know best on pretty much everything.

 

I do equate respect to morality (the right and wrong of things) and respect for parental authority, a parents right to raise their child as they see fit, is just one aspect of it.

 

It is wrong (immoral) to not respect someone and treat them badly especially when they have never done anything wrong to you or to others. Will's disregard for Wally & Clara as people and then going behind their backs to give Zach a car is wrong. I don't car how you spin it or try to turn it into a positive for Will it isn't. This isn't Will seeing some great injustice and then righting it. It is Will wanting to stick a thumb in Wally & Clara's eye, but Gathan and his Father as well. The very impetuousness of the act shows Will's immaturity.

 

Why can't Will, who ran away, felt unloved and abandoned by his parents, not empathize more with the young men at Father Tim's who truly are unloved and abandoned by their parents and do nice things for them? The money Will spent on a car for Zach would have done much more good spread over the 30 to 40 guys at Fr Tim's mission. That would have showed maturity to me and an understanding of what injustice looks like.

 

Maybe I take it more to heart because I have to work with a good number of Wills and grew up with a good number of Wills, who have no concept of the world is supposed to work and no concept of reality. The last chapter, Will not understanding how to make breakfast brought it home even more. He is used to walking into a kitchen with servants who fix his meals and when they are at Escorial, having the meals served by more servants like it is early 20th century Britain. I am sure he treats them well, but he still thinks of them as inferiors. That isn't immaturity as it is arrogance and Will has arrogance in spades; slightly cocky can be cute, arrogance is ugly. His disregard for adults in general is another aspect of the arrogance.

 

Switching off Will and onto Brad in this new chapter, I find it interesting that a company like Triton would a chief of security like they do. CT was one of the earlier states to pass gay rights protection in the early 90's. I am not sure that the Board is the proper venue to address the issues. I'd have the security chief in a conference room with the VP of HR, Director of HR, Jordan and Brad and start the tortuously long route that large corporations have to go to fire someone. Long gone are the days of summarily dismissing someone. It starts with a suspension pending investigation, an investigation not just of what the suspended party did, but how did you handle previous, similar violations of company policy and law and then pray the suspended party is not a protected class themselves. Of course I can't really complain, it is such situations that get lawyers their next new car or trip to Tahiti.

 

Hmmm Private Tim

I do agree with you ...  that Will's action is immature and does interfear with what his parents wants... but do understand that I'm not 15 any more...  that was a long time ago... But I might have thought different when I was like Will 15 yo. Learning about responsability and being mature and responsible takes time.

 

Will is young and makes mistakes like anyone did when being his age.

 

I disagree with you that it is a character flaw. No I do not think it is not a character flaw... in my opinion. He will learn from this... well hmmm... Mark will write it that way I guess... 

His character is develloping... and yes he is 15 yo and is immature and behaves like that. So.... he behaves like that in this story ! So I think it is good writing from Mark and he will make Will's character evolve in the future ... I think. 

 

Your other point that you work with guys who are rich and have Will's background and behave superior is what I understand very well. It is in my opinion a very good point.

Some children grow up in a world of abbundance and... have no idea of what happens outside their rich family and friends lives.

Others grow up abbandoned or poor... Realise I know for this is how I grew up.

But Mark created a rich family with children growing up rich and... I hope my kids will not have to endure my poor state ever... but I would prefer it to be like Will has it.

His environment makes things open for discussion... mine never did. His environment makes him think beyond rich and poor. Will did react when Noah who did not come from a rich family was excluded from a party  (by his cousin Marie... and aunt Claire).

 

So understand I realise your point as Mark probably will ...  But the character of Will is just now a 15 yo guy/boy who makes mistakes... and learns from them and his character will grow during the story... ( I hope  !  So please Mark  make it happen !).

 

Private Tim I think I understand your comments but do not share all of them.

 

I like the characters... the way Mark makes them grow...

 

And for Mark, as always keep writing

NDG

[Mark Arbour]

Hmmm Private Tim

I do agree with you ...  that Will's action is immature and does interfear with what his parents wants... but do understand that I'm not 15 any more...  that was a long time ago... But I might have thought different when I was like Will 15 yo. Learning about responsability and being mature and responsible takes time.

 

Will is young and makes mistakes like anyone did when being his age.

 

I disagree with you that it is a character flaw. No I do not think it is not a character flaw... in my opinion. He will learn from this... well hmmm... Mark will write it that way I guess... 

His character is develloping... and yes he is 15 yo and is immature and behaves like that. So.... he behaves like that in this story ! So I think it is good writing from Mark and he will make Will's character evolve in the future ... I think. 

 

Your other point that you work with guys who are rich and have Will's background and behave superior is what I understand very well. It is in my opinion a very good point.

Some children grow up in a world of abbundance and... have no idea of what happens outside their rich family and friends lives.

Others grow up abbandoned or poor... Realise I know for this is how I grew up.

But Mark created a rich family with children growing up rich and... I hope my kids will not have to endure my poor state ever... but I would prefer it to be like Will has it.

His environment makes things open for discussion... mine never did. His environment makes him think beyond rich and poor. Will did react when Noah who did not come from a rich family was excluded from a party  (by his cousin Marie... and aunt Claire).

 

So understand I realise your point as Mark probably will ...  But the character of Will is just now a 15 yo guy/boy who makes mistakes... and learns from them and his character will grow during the story... ( I hope  !  So please Mark  make it happen !).

 

Private Tim I think I understand your comments but do not share all of them.

 

I like the characters... the way Mark makes them grow...

 

And for Mark, as always keep writing

NDG

 

I like Tim's comments too, even when I don't agree with him.  But he expects that. 

 

You're right, that Will is a work in progress, and he definitely has a different view of things than some of the adults in his life.  What I'm not convinced about is that he's wrong, and they're right, but we will see. 

[Kitt]

Is there something I am missing here?  People make mistakes, sometimes quite juvenile mistakes, and those are not restricted to actual juveniles.  My gram used to point out mistakes are necessary. The only shame is in not learning from them.  So - Will makes mistakes. So do Brad, Stef, and even JP. Remember, he allowed Austin to be made to feel unwelcome at the dinner table. Clare and Isadore made mistakes with the Bastille day party. JJ and Marie ended up under psychiatric inpatient care because of mistakes. Why is it Will seems to be expected to live a mistake free, adult, never act like a kid life? The adults in the family aren't expected to.

[methodwriter85]

    I think the issue with that is because of Will's emancipation. If Will expects to be treated like and have the rights of an adult, he needs to act like one, and not like a kid.

 

     Then again, I've met adults who are faaarrrr more childish than Will is. I think no matter what, there was no way Will was going to be a normal teenager, and not just because of wealth and the way he was raised. He's a very bright guy, which gives him the viewpoint that he's always right and it's up to him to illuminate those set-in-their-ways parents and grandparents. The arrogance will probably fade in time, especially once he's out of high school and facing off against professors who don't give a damn who he is.

Edited December 15, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

Is there something I am missing here?  People make mistakes, sometimes quite juvenile mistakes, and those are not restricted to actual juveniles.  My gram used to point out mistakes are necessary. The only shame is in not learning from them.  So - Will makes mistakes. So do Brad, Stef, and even JP. Remember, he allowed Austin to be made to feel unwelcome at the dinner table. Clare and Isadore made mistakes with the Bastille day party. JJ and Marie ended up under psychiatric inpatient care because of mistakes. Why is it Will seems to be expected to live a mistake free, adult, never act like a kid life? The adults in the family aren't expected to.

 

I am really glad that you agree with me that it was a huge mistake for Will to buy Zach the car and he shouldn't have shown such disregard for Wally & Clara, Gathan and Brad.

 

Ok that would be sarcasm (or is it irony?). Because I think you are among the crowd that thinks Will didn't make a mistake in how he handled buying Zach a car.

 

All the people in the above situations came to realize they had made errors and had a level of contrition. Will has none. He, and half the people here (or more) think he did the right thing.

 

That is the point. How can he learn from his "mistakes", if he doesn't see them as such?

[Mark Arbour]

All the people in the above situations came to realize they had made errors and had a level of contrition. Will has none. He, and half the people here (or more) think he did the right thing.

 

That is the point. How can he learn from his "mistakes", if he doesn't see them as such?

 

I was going to post damn near the same thing.  He can't really learn from his mistake unless he thinks it's a mistake.  As smart as he is, that kind of thinking usually requires experience, much as Jeremy says. 

[methodwriter85]

I was going to post damn near the same thing.  He can't really learn from his mistake unless he thinks it's a mistake.  As smart as he is, that kind of thinking usually requires experience, much as Jeremy says. 

 

    I'm already thinking in glee about the pounding Will's ego is going to take when he hits college and he runs across a hard-ass professor. Dear god. Especially if he winds up in grad school (which I think is pretty likely given Will's interest in academics and the general narrative of his generation), because there is no such thing as a professor who kisses your ass in grad school. I think that's been the most beneficial thing to me from having gone to grad school- you get it pounded into your head that you don't know everything, and that you're not the smartest guy in the room, and it's probably one of the best ways of injecting humility into people. Humility is something Will very desperately needs.

 

    Mark and I have this mutual e-friend who was a Golden Boy growing up with some similarities to Will, and it was interesting to see how this e-friend (I'll call him Aaron) reacted when he didn't get what he wanted. It was almost like Aaron refused to accept it and wrote long speeches about how he couldn't accept it, because he was very much conditioned to think that he'd get whatever he wanted as long as he tried hard enough. And this was in Aaron's early 30's, not early 20's. I wonder if Will is going to be similar...

 

    I'm also wondering how Will's going to react when "jading" things happen to him, because Will's of the mindset that he can make a big difference in the world, such as when Will take it upon himself to rid the figure skating world of homophobia and basically threatened to take down the entire ISU over the issue of Shane. Wonderful teenager hyperbole, but eventually Will's going to hit into that wall that you always hit when you're an agitator for change.

 

    In contrast, I think JJ actually seems pretty conditioned towards not getting what he wants all the time, as besides skating, the only other things he's apparently good at are gymnastics and singing. Being the middle child who gets overshadowed in favor of his Golden Boy brother might have sucked growing up, but it might actually be a pretty good thing for him in the end.

Edited December 15, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Westie]

It also speaks volumes about his maturity, or lack thereof, that he has so little respect for his elders.

I do equate respect to morality (the right and wrong of things) and respect for parental authority,

 

Can you explain to me Tim, why being OLDER automatically affords you respect? Or why Parents automatically gain respect from their Children?

 

You have an old fashioned view of respect, and to me it's completely wrong. Respect is a two way thing that is earned and developed over time. Nobody has an automatic right to it from anyone. You're the kind of guy, I perceive, that thinks "because I said so" is an acceptable answer from a Parent - as if their authority is more important than motive or cogent argument.

[Kitt]

I am really glad that you agree with me that it was a huge mistake for Will to buy Zach the car and he shouldn't have shown such disregard for Wally & Clara, Gathan and Brad.

 

Ok that would be sarcasm (or is it irony?). Because I think you are among the crowd that thinks Will didn't make a mistake in how he handled buying Zach a car.

 

All the people in the above situations came to realize they had made errors and had a level of contrition. Will has none. He, and half the people here (or more) think he did the right thing.

 

That is the point. How can he learn from his "mistakes", if he doesn't see them as such?

Actually there are two issues with the first statement - Was Will buying a car for Zach a mistake, and did he go about it the wrong way?

 

Was it a mistake?  We don't know yet - it might very well be but we need to wait and see if Zach gets into trouble with it, as his parents and Gathan seem to think he will.

 

Was Will wrong in how he went about it? Hell Yes. He showed no respect for Wally and Clara's opinion on the subject, and in fact didn't even GET their opinion, but simply extrapolated what Gathan said to mean that the couple held exactly the same opinion. I live in the real world - to assume my 22 yr old daughters opinions exactly reflect mine would be a major mistake!

 

Am I in the crowd that thinks he didn't make any mistakes with the car? Nope. Do I think this should be an earth shattering event that gets the kid condemned by every "adult" in his life? Nope.  Mistakes are made - you learn from it - you move on.

 

How can he learn from his "mistakes", if he doesn't see them as such?   Simple - remember while it may be several weeks in our time - in Cap time this all went on in a matter of a couple days. Funeral, car, dinner making Austin uncomfortable and blow up over the car after, then off to Hawaii all in under a week.

Will may not see it as a mistake YET.  Have you discovered all your mistakes in life within minutes, or even hours of having made them? Sometimes it takes a while to come back and bite you in the ass, and some mistakes bite harder than others,

[methodwriter85]

 

Will may not see it as a mistake YET.  Have you discovered all your mistakes in life within minutes, or even hours of having made them? Sometimes it takes a while to come back and bite you in the ass, and some mistakes bite harder than others,

 

    Very true. In terms of Will, I gotta go back to how he handled the Shane Norway situation. It was an empowering moment that made him feel good about standing up for his beliefs. But what Will doesn't realize, or hasn't talked about yet, is the fact that Will made it impossible for himself to ever be a volunteer for his brother's competitions again, at least the ones being handled by the ISU. He's on "the red list" now, as Daisy referred to it. I don't think Will realizes it because it doesn't seem like he's been to any of JJ's 2001-2002 season comps yet, but it would be kind of funny for Tiffany to illuminate Will on this.

Edited December 15, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

Can you explain to me Tim, why being OLDER automatically affords you respect? Or why Parents automatically gain respect from their Children?

 

You have an old fashioned view of respect, and to me it's completely wrong. Respect is a two way thing that is earned and developed over time. Nobody has an automatic right to it from anyone. You're the kind of guy, I perceive, that thinks "because I said so" is an acceptable answer from a Parent - as if their authority is more important than motive or cogent argument.

 

You're the kind of guy, I perceive, that is rather callow and doesn't understand respect. There are many forms of respect that don't need to be "developed" or earned. Respect for parental rights would be one form that doesn't need to be earned or developed. A spiteful Wally and Clara could remove the car from Zach and get a restraining order against Will without too much problem because the law still has respect for some relationships, even if individuals don't.

 

Similarly when you are in court, the judge doesn't need to "earn" your respect, he has it automatically otherwise disrespect is dealt with swiftly and surely.

 

Children have to respect their parents authority whether or not they respect the people and the law recognizes that as well.

 

The reason that you respect your elders is that with age comes wisdom.

 

And please spare me anecdotal stories about unwise older people. Society has accepted for millennia that age brings experience and experience wisdom.

[Daddydavek]

Respect is given to a judge in their courtroom.  But does anyone respect the judge that bought the argument of 'affluenza'?

 

Respect is given to parents as the one who nourished and took care of you when you could not take care of yourself.  However, parents can lose the respect of their children and often do.  Courts too, do not defer to parental rights when parents have been negligent or abusive.

 

 

While no one is claiming Clara and Wally were unfit, it is entirely possible that they were less than ideal parents and unduly influenced by Gathan regarding Zach.  After all we do not have the entire back story there, just tidbits. 

 

While I believe that a lack of respect for other people and other peoples' property is a problem, I also believe that respect is a two-way street and that too often the people who complain most about a lack of respect often fail to respect others.  

[PrivateTim]

1) Respect is given to a judge in their courtroom.  But does anyone respect the judge that bought the argument of 'affluenza'?

 

2) Respect is given to parents as the one who nourished and took care of you when you could not take care of yourself.  However, parents can lose the respect of their children and often do.  Courts too, do not defer to parental rights when parents have been negligent or abusive.

 

 

In point 1 you have two different aspects of respect and it dovetails nice on the point of parents. You have to respect the office of the judge just like you have to respect the office of the parents. It is possible to not respect the officeholder, but that can't spill over on official duties. If you told the judge in the affluenza case (does anyone doubt Will is a sufferer?) in their court that the was the most idiotic thing you'd ever heard, at best you'd be pulling out the checkbook and at worst, cooling your heels in a holding cell.

 

In point 2, I wish it were true that courts did not defer to parental rights when parents have been negligent or abusive, but you'd would be horrified at what it takes to get a child to be removed from an abuse or negligent household.

[Kitt]

 

 

In point 2, I wish it were true that courts did not defer to parental rights when parents have been negligent or abusive, but you'd would be horrified at what it takes to get a child to be removed from an abuse or negligent household.

Quite true. In working with children I have unfortunately seen that time and again.  While in general parents and their rights should be respected, the sad truth is that some simply do NOT deserve respect at all.

[rjo]

A while ago there was a story about a young boy who was chained to a post on the porch of his house. Those parents were removed by the court and their remaining chidren put in protection. Most parents love and protect their children. It can be hard when you have teenager. Ask Brad. Good parents earn respect. Wally and Clara are from a small town and never have moved beyond it. It is not that Wally did or didn't go to college or that until  Robbie found them they were poorer. It is a mindset. Stef was poor hustler in Paris and became a very rich man. Many people , so many  that I can not name them all, had little or no education, but they had drive and passion for a better life. Zach saw his life and had the good sense to turn it around. That is a good thing. Will it work out? Maybe, maybe not. As for Will; he sees things in a different way. Wally and Clara never entered his mind. He saw a person in need and he was able to forfill that need. It is not that he disrespected anyone, as much as he righted in his own mind a wrong. Honestly I can't believe we are still discussing this. Tim believes Will is flawed. Yes, he is but so are all the characters. All of them, flawed and broken, like real people.  Tim sees Will as he is now in time, and I see Will as what he can be. Will is as Mark said a work in progress. Making mistakens, and learning from them. Yes, he may not see all his mistaken, but who does. However, when he sees them he does his best not to repeat them.  That is why my friends I feel he will  grow into a truly outstanding person. It will take time but it will happen. I can only hope that when that happens we all Will see it.

[methodwriter85]

   I really wish Will had more respect for Wally. Wally came from an abusive home where the bulk of every adult male in the family are raging drunks who can't support their children, managed to get a job, buy a home, have a 20-year odd successful marriage, raise 6 kids (4 of whom weren't actually his) , with 4 of whom are either in college or college-bound. That's a pretty successful man in my wagering.

 

    Way more successful than the assholes who spawned a monstrous kid who killed 4 people in a fit of "affluenza."

 

    I hope Will realizes what a snob he's being by the end of the story.

Edited December 16, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

As for Will; he sees things in a different way. Wally and Clara never entered his mind. <snip>  It is not that he disrespected anyone

 

I hope you see the irony and incompatibility of those two statements.

[rjo]

In Will's mind they weren't even on his radar. Therefore, he did not set out to disrespect them. I am not saying that he didn't, only that he didn't set out to do it. I believe that is an important difference. If I don't know how you will react to some thing, should I be guilty of making you upset? All of us do things in this life which may cause people to be upset. Honestly, if we worried about all the reactions, we would do little more than  huddle in a dark room never doing anything or saying anything. That is not Will  and hopefully not us either. Will engages with the world for better or worse. Many times he has done things which I feel were out of line, Brad's and Robbie clothes and cars, however, many times does good, kind things which other in his family should have done. Kai's father, rooms at hotel are just a few. My point has always been Will is growing, learning. progressing . One of the first things I learned in dealing with people is that you must take them from there they are and help them progress to there they want to be. The reason I like Will is that he has many of the qualities which make up outstanding people. Over the last year or so he has shown concern to others, something I don't think Brad thought about until much later in life. His sense of justice, which he shares with his great grandmother. Sometimes he forgets how much people love and care about him, his father, Aunt Clarie  but we all do that at times. None of us is perfect. Well maybe Mark  the creator of this story so he can be.

Edited December 16, 2013 by rjo