9.11

[Kitt]

I am sure being fiercely independent and having strong family ties are NOT exclusive. It's why so many parents and children get along better once they are living in separate homes, not because of some upheaval but because it was simply time for the children to fly the nest.  

 

 he doesn't usually make rash decisions.

Oh, Will makes many rash decisions. That is not to say he doesn't think better of some of them once he calms down. As entertaining as I found the power miter saw and Gucci shoes, it wasn't what I would call a well thought out response to the situation. The flight to Hawaii and keeping a low profile, giving things time to cool off and taking time to think things through, much better. 

[John Prz]

An interesting character discussion. 

 

I'm not sure if being fiercely independent and having strong family ties are mutually exclusive.  Logically, that would seem to be the case, but if you look into it deeper, I think they can coexist.  Will isn't willing to let his family (or anyone) control him or his life.  To me, that's a very reasonable attribute for him to have, especially when you consider how controlling his father has been in the past.  But as long as they're not trying to run his life, his family is very important to him. 

 

Going back to the whole incident with the Bastille Day party, where Will was sidelined: that evoked a very strong reaction from him, because it hit on something very important to him. 

 

But taking a scenario that B1ue sort of hypothesized (I'll flesh it out a bit), let's assume that Will and Zach truly did fall in love and were aware that they were in love, and decided to run off and be by themselves somewhere.  To do that, we have to ignore Zach's key motivator (football), so let's do that.  I think that in that situation, Will would be much more likely to fight it out with his family (big surprise) and only if he felt that everyone was against him do I see him making that kind of decision.  And in reality, for everyone to be against him (especially JP), it would probably register in his mind that he was making a bad decision, and he'd probably reconsider.  In all of his conflicts, he has generally looked to those people he respects the most for validation.  Without that, he doesn't usually make rash decisions.

 

I have to agree with this 

 

Will want to be part of his family. We saw many many times who deep his is bond with JP, Stef and Wade. He wouldn't run from them. If not forced to, or betrayed by them (the only one who did it, overthinking for his care, was Stef and we saw how Will reacted to that.).

[Mark Arbour]

I am sure being fiercely independent and having strong family ties are NOT exclusive. It's why so many parents and children get along better once they are living in separate homes, not because of some upheaval but because it was simply time for the children to fly the nest.  

Oh, Will makes many rash decisions. That is not to say he doesn't think better of some of them once he calms down. As entertaining as I found the power miter saw and Gucci shoes, it wasn't what I would call a well thought out response to the situation. The flight to Hawaii and keeping a low profile, giving things time to cool off and taking time to think things through, much better. 

 

Well, there was that. 

 

At the same time, even when he ran away, or when he was dealing with Norway and the emancipation thing, I think that his touchstones (JP, Stef, and Wade) could have reeled him in if they thought he was dead wrong.

[Kitt]

Well, there was that. 

 

At the same time, even when he ran away, or when he was dealing with Norway and the emancipation thing, I think that his touchstones (JP, Stef, and Wade) could have reeled him in if they thought he was dead wrong.

Or if they had the chance. Hard to reel him in from destruction of a Ferrari after the fact.

[mmike1969]

Oh, Will makes many rash decisions. That is not to say he doesn't think better of some of them once he calms down. As entertaining as I found the power miter saw and Gucci shoes, it wasn't what I would call a well thought out response to the situation. The flight to Hawaii and keeping a low profile, giving things time to cool off and taking time to think things through, much better.

This is what I see in Will: A 15yr old who can't figure out how to crack an egg to make scrambled eggs yet he manages to use a power saw to cut shoes in half without cutting off his own fingers.

[John Prz]

This is what I see in Will: A 15yr old who can't figure out how to crack an egg to make scrambled eggs yet he manages to use a power saw to cut shoes in half without cutting off his own fingers.

 

LOL these are the mysteries of CAP. 

[sat8997]

This is what I see in Will: A 15yr old who can't figure out how to crack an egg to make scrambled eggs yet he manages to use a power saw to cut shoes in half without cutting off his own fingers.

 

Easily explainable: Why would he need to figure out how to crack an egg to make scrambled eggs when it's so much easier to pour dry cereal into a bowl and add milk? Presto-chango - automatic food. And the fact that the household even had a power saw obviously meant someone (I'm figuring Robbie) had made use of it. Now...kids...power tools. Makes sense they'd have had a turn trying the saw out because - POWER TOOLS!!! - so Will had experience. And put that experience to good use.

[rjo]

Sorry for saying this, but I wonder, really wonder, how prefect are these people who put down Will? How many of them had been kidnapped and raped? How many of them had the person who was hired to protect them attack and abuse them? None of this up to that time without any mental or physical help. All this, all this before the age of 15. It is easy to condem Will and his actions without looking at the whole picture. It seems to me that Brad's behavior in his teenage years and even in later years, sledge hammer to a car and drug use were worse.

Edited January 29, 2014 by rjo

[Kitt]

Don't be sorry!  Extreme situations beget extreme reactions.  It makes perfect sense to me that one should consider all the things that go into the decisions before trying to judge them.

[Daddydavek]

Will is a complicated set of experiences which have had their effect.  He has had to deal with a lot for a large part of his life.  I don't think anyone thinks he had an easy childhood.  Judging him by conventional standards misses much of who he is becoming.  Hopefully he finds some direction and purpose as I think he could go far.

[rjo]

Thank you Dave and Kitt. Dave just said something that rung so true. I see what Will can became too. JP sees it. I think that Brad sees it. Will can became an outstanding person. We see that Wade is on the edge of that. Give Will a few years and he maybe as good as Wade and maybe even better. I try always to look for the good in people, some look for the faults. I see the world getting better not worse.  Still not perfect but much more open and accepting.

[B1ue]

Sorry for saying this, but I wonder, really wonder, how prefect are these people who put down Will? How many of them had been kidnapped and raped? How many of them had the person who was hired to protect them attack and abuse them? None of this up to that time without any mental or physical help. All this, all this before the age of 15. It is easy to condem Will and his actions without looking at the whole picture. It seems to me that Brad's behavior in his teenage years and even in later years, sledge hammer to a car and drug use were worse.

 

I hate to break a perfectly good assumption, but I am actually not trying to condemn Will. I am trying to describe him. There is a clear disconnect between Mark's authorial intention and what I am reading on the page, so I wanted to discuss that.

 

I still don't see it. Kitt is probably correct in that I am defining "family oriented" differently than y'all, but for me I need to see some sense of responsibility towards his family before I will place that trait on a character. And perhaps because he's only 14, perhaps because he's too traumatized still, perhaps because Mark has simply not highlighted the moments where Will would prove that responsibility, but for whatever reason, I don't see that happening. His responsibility in life, as he seems to see it, is to get good grades. He recently acquired a new role as Maddy's protector, but not caretaker, and out of all his family ties, that's probably the only one I see him refusing to let break. Every other relationship, I think he could walk away from, although JP would probably be the next hardest.

 

As an aside, I specifically didn't name Zach in my scenario, because Mark's quite right, he'd never go with Will if he took off. At this point, I don't think he feel comfortable with the two of them going to the same school, let alone starting a life together. Naturally, this means that the most interesting scenario is probably that they wind up at the same college, just to see what happens, but I won't insist on that needing to happen.

 

And, as a matter of fact, I have been raped. Abused. Attacked. I have attacked others, and learned exactly how little I'm not capable of in a rage. And I didn't get the benefit of therapy either. And sweet fuck all of that has to do with Will's character development.

[methodwriter85]

   I think that what Blue's trying to say is that he thinks it's a stretch to say that Will is so family-focused, given that he's incapable of ever putting himself into an awkward position of being around a family member and being polite to them even though they're warring with each other. For example, Wade still has Elizabeth at family functions, even though he'd ban her if it didn't meaning breaching family conduct.That's what family obligations are, and so far the closest we've seen Will doing that was pretending that Matt doesn't exist instead of exploding at him at family dinner.

 

And the fact that the household even had a power saw obviously meant someone (I'm figuring Robbie) had made use of it. Now...kids...power tools. Makes sense they'd have had a turn trying the saw out because - POWER TOOLS!!! - so Will had experience. And put that experience to good use.

 

    I always kind of figured that given Robbie's interest in architecture, and the fact that this family does construction, Robbie probably helped out every once in awhile when they had renovations. The family sounds like they update their homes pretty regularly.

 

    I'd kind of like to see if Will could make French toast.

[rjo]

Rape and abuse are awful things. I would not wish them on anyone. Many times it takes years for all these things to come out and much longer for them to be dealt with. When the kidnapping and rape happen to Will, I thought it odd that the family did not get help for Will. Rather than going to Rome as they did I would have thought they would have gone home and got Will help. Maybe some of his later actions would have been less dramatic if they had.

 

 

As for B1ue and his sad past, I hope he has gotten the help he needed.

[mmike1969]

I'd kind of like to see if Will could make French toast.

That requires the use of eggs so no, Will can't.

Edited January 30, 2014 by mmike1969

[rjo]

That's why Will loved the cooks. If you got someone to cook for you, why cook yourself.

Edited January 30, 2014 by rjo

[Kitt]

Is that why my husband still keeps me around after 35 yrs?

[Mark Arbour]

Why would he cook?  Let's start with the basic assumption that it's not something he'd do for fun.

[rjo]

Congrats. High School sweethearts? I am sure there are a lot of reasons for the 35 years.

[mmike1969]

Re chapter 70:

 

Disappointed in Matt and I find myself rooting for Will and Zach. I wonder how Stef is going to dress up Zach? A&F or something like that?

 

Matt: What part of Frank's directive of "quit being a slut" did Matt not understand? Not much room to negotiate on that part.

 

Quit the hockey team? Still has not done it. At the same time, I've seen many seniors take club sports seriously AND keep up their education into higher education. Matt just does not have that time management ability when he's sleeping and partying with everyone.

[methodwriter85]

   If JJ moves to Boston, that means that he'll be competing against Johnny Weir at the 2002 Eastern Sectionals for a spot in the '03 U.S. Championship. Holy shit, the fur is going to fly.

 

   If Wade goes to Harvard for Law School as the class of 2005, I'm guessing then that he'll be the first one to discover FaceBook when it roles around in '03-'04. It's a damn shame that the Winklevoss twins don't look like Armie Hammer in real life. LOL.

 

   My vote is for Matt to wind up at U. of Chicago's fiance masters program. If there's anyone I want to see enjoying Boy's Town, it's Matt.

Edited January 30, 2014 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

I like the idea of Wade, JJ, Riley and Tiffany in Boston. I can also Matt in Chicago. Stef's old school.

[PrivateTim]

Really scary when centexsub and I are on the same wave length

 

 

I am actually really dissapointed in how Wade is starting to handle this situation. I can see Wade with his sense of responsiblity needing to move forward and prepare himself and even those around him for the next stage of life, it is an issue of control. That being said, Wade is really the one that set up his and Matt's current relationship format and now is punishing Matt for adhering to the format that Wade himself established. I do think Matt went off the deep end but I don't think that Wade really tried to understand how differently Matt was dealing with Robbie's loss versus his handling of the Senator's death. Wade has always been the more mature person in this relationship but at least in my opinion, some of that maturity is slipping.... I do really believe that Wade is trying to handle everything in a manner that will benefit not only himself but the others in the long run; the problem is that you can't make those decisions in a vacum and he seems to be trying to do just that. Honestly, if he and Wade end here; I will blame him a lot more than Matt, for all of his actions, at this point.

With Will, I feel I am watching him dancing a Texas two-step. For every two steps forward, he seems to take one step back. I do think he is being incredible self aware about his relationship with Zach and is handling that better than most people two or three times his age. I do appreciate that he seems to be taking a look at it from so many different aspects and trying to understand and decide his future. You rarely can pick the person you fall in love with but it is good that he is going in with no blinders on. On the other side, Will is starting to develop one of Brad's most unattractive traits of making unilateral decisions that effect others around him. Only JP really has the ability to ban someone from Escorial and while I think JP will explain to Tony why it would be better not to be around at least for a while; Will should not have made that decision or move. I know that Will is still seeing his therapist but they need to be working more on his anger issues and his need to control everything around him. With all the loss in his life recently, the control issue is really a common manifestation but it is one that needs to be dealt with. Will is still moving forward but he needs to make sure that recent events don't overtake his advances.

[Kitt]

I can't help but see the Hayes legacy of self destruction wandering back into the story again.

 

Jeff lost his battle with heroin. He may have realized at the end just how much he was hurting JP and the rest of the family, but didn't have the personal fortitude to fix things.

 

In several stories Robbie was so self destructive it almost cost him his relationship with both Brad and Will, and in spite of everyone smacking him upside the head he plowed on thinking he was completely in the right. It took something as horrid as one of his sons being molested before he pulled his head out of his ass and started to repair relationships. He had finally made it back to a good place and 9.11 struck.

 

Now I see Matt in similar self destructive behaviors, refusing to listen to the people around him and plowing on thinking he is in the right. Will it take something equally as disastrous to get his attention? 

[Mark Arbour]

Really scary when centexsub and I are on the same wave length

 

It's really scary for him.

 

I am actually really dissapointed in how Wade is starting to handle this situation. I can see Wade with his sense of responsiblity needing to move forward and prepare himself and even those around him for the next stage of life, it is an issue of control. That being said, Wade is really the one that set up his and Matt's current relationship format and now is punishing Matt for adhering to the format that Wade himself established. I do think Matt went off the deep end but I don't think that Wade really tried to understand how differently Matt was dealing with Robbie's loss versus his handling of the Senator's death. Wade has always been the more mature person in this relationship but at least in my opinion, some of that maturity is slipping.... I do really believe that Wade is trying to handle everything in a manner that will benefit not only himself but the others in the long run; the problem is that you can't make those decisions in a vacum and he seems to be trying to do just that. Honestly, if he and Wade end here; I will blame him a lot more than Matt, for all of his actions, at this point.

 

 

 

I'm not going to comment too much on this, because we'll see Wade's perspective pretty clearly in the chapters ahead.  I do want to correct you on their relationship and it's format:  that was definitely a joint decision, not just Wade's. 

 

Personally, I can completely understand Wade's frustration.  He's struggling like Matt, but he's been ignored and sidelined by his partner.  At dinner, Frank laid out a plan for Matt, and Wade heard that and probably thought "well, if he does that, maybe we can fix things."  When he came back from DC to find an entirely different proposal in place, he probably felt very betrayed.  If I was him, I'd be thinking that since I'm basically alone as it is, why put up with this crap?

I can't help but see the Hayes legacy of self destruction wandering back into the story again.

 

Jeff lost his battle with heroin. He may have realized at the end just how much he was hurting JP and the rest of the family, but didn't have the personal fortitude to fix things.

 

In several stories Robbie was so self destructive it almost cost him his relationship with both Brad and Will, and in spite of everyone smacking him upside the head he plowed on thinking he was completely in the right. It took something as horrid as one of his sons being molested before he pulled his head out of his ass and started to repair relationships. He had finally made it back to a good place and 9.11 struck.

 

Now I see Matt in similar self destructive behaviors, refusing to listen to the people around him and plowing on thinking he is in the right. Will it take something equally as disastrous to get his attention? 

 

I think that Matt, despite his current struggles, is a much tougher and resilient person than either Jeff or Robbie.   And I think he's a little too into himself to cause himself the kind of damage that Jeff did.