9.11

[methodwriter85]

It's interesting- he does have a bit of the Hayes self-destructive gene, but at the same time...we all have to remember that Matt doesn't have the baggage of growing up a Hayes in Claremont, where everyone sees those violet eyes and assumes that you're some some trashy alchoholic only good for playing football. And he is resillent- remember, this is a guy who survived slipping into a coma when he was 18.

 

I do think Wade's frustrated because Matt made him a promise that they were going to be partners junior year, and it's a year later and he still has refused to grow up. Which is fine for a 21-year old, but Wade's in the head space that he wants to raise his son and he needs someone that can be a husband and secondary father, which so far Matt is showing that he's not ready for that yet. Matt doesn't even really seem to have any plans about where he's applying to grad school, and it's already November.

[rjo]

I hope not. David said something in his review that I don't agree with. That is very rare. I believe that Wade always wanted a relationship with Matt and just Matt. However he settled with what they had. Now Wade is at the end of his rope. He wonders if Matt will ever grow up. At this point he is willing to give Matt up because of it. It is not the last six months but the last 3 1/2 years.

[Kitt]

I seem to remember a big discussion between Matt and Wade a while back. I can't remember if it was at the end of Millennium or early in Paternity, but Wade was less than thrilled with Matt's promiscuity. He had agreed to the no strings sex, but I got the impression at that point it was because he sensed if he pushed a more traditional relationship he might lose Matt. They later amended the agreement to allow one to label someone off limits if they thought the person a threat to the relationship. I hardly think it unreasonable for Wade to expect that Matt would eventually outgrow this need to party like a rock star. 

 

It has been said, both here and in reviews, that Wade is being self centered in planning his graduate education without taking what Matt wants into consideration, and that he in fact refused to listen to Matt in the truck on the way home. That is very hard to do when one is being shut out of someones life every time they turn around. For weeks now Matt has been pushing Wade away, wanting nothing to do with planning a future. This started long before 911 so lets not blame it on grief. I'll admit, grief isn't helping anything, but this started a long while back. Now that Wade has hit his limit, it's him being inconsiderate of his lovers feelings?

 

I have always thought people who decided what school to attend based on where a friend or significant other goes to be somewhat short sighted. If all the other factors are equal, comparable curriculum and reputations etc., then by all means chose the school your lover goes to. But if it comes to a choice between a really good school for your chosen career, and one that may be great for your lover but only acceptable for you, you would be compromising both your futures to choose the latter. Not all schools can be great for everyone. Harvard may be a great law school, but MIT would be better for someone looking at technology wouldn't it? Matt may not be Harvard material, but then, Wade may not be an appropriate student at what ever grad school Matt chooses.

[Northern Dutch Guy]

Mark wrote again a very clever chapter (in 9.11 the 70th)... I think.

Relationships can have bad times and when you are young it often means a break... for you have to digest things that you never met before....

 

Matt and Wade are having a bad time. A break would for them ...(I do not mean... a permanent break)  could be even good for each other...

They have to solve some private things .... and solving them makes them mature...

And makes them again more attractive for each other.

 

My youngest sister married when she was 20 yo with a guy she knew from 'kindergarten' . They broke up several times between being 12 and 19 yo and... often I was ... the in between guy... they gave messages to ...  to transport to each other....  that they wanted to be together again....

 

I will be with my partner 25 years together this year ... but before that we broke up 4 times in 5 years....

But we learned a lot about each other during our break ups ! So much that we .... got together again and now permanent....

 

 

Now back to why I think Mark wrote this clever chapter. ..

All options are still open. So... even a break between Matt and Wade... could be still ... just temporary.

Mark wrote about Will that he needs time ....

to ever be on acceptable terms with Matt again...

but.... I guess that is the same for Wade ... towards Matt ...

and some other people in Mark's story...

 

Mark I love your stries ...

So Keep writing

love NDG

[Daddydavek]

A whole chapter from Wade's POV and not a thought or mention about Ethan expressed by Wade.   

 

Wade realizing he may have to deal with continuing to be separated from Riley based on the school he picks was a concern he noted.  And it seems he has decided that if he has to deal with being separated from his child that he could not be bothered with having to worry about coordinating his school choice with Matt.  I see his point.  If they truly love each other, they will make it.  Brad and Robbie went to separate schools, didn't they?

[mmike1969]

Really scary when centexsub and I are on the same wave length

That's just a backhanded way to say centexsub is wrong

[methodwriter85]

   I kinda think it would be good for them to separate and go to different schools in different cities...I don't think they were going to grow together, and I think if they split and get a chance to grow and evolve separate, if and when they get back together they'll know that they really are meant to be together.

[Kitt]

I think much more important than what school Matt wants to go to would be his ability to see Reilly. Romantic relationships can and do survive distance and separate schools if the people want to make it work. His son, on the other hand, is a completely different situation. One I can easily see resolved by Wade being accepted to Stanford Law, ranked #3 in the country behind Yale and Harvard. Would be a step up from the school in DC he was considering in this chapter, presents the least upheaval in both his life and his sons, and keeps him close to his extended family and his newest brother.

[PrivateTim]

It has been said, both here and in reviews, that Wade is being self centered in planning his graduate education without taking what Matt wants into consideration, and that he in fact refused to listen to Matt in the truck on the way home. That is very hard to do when one is being shut out of someones life every time they turn around. For weeks now Matt has been pushing Wade away, wanting nothing to do with planning a future. This started long before 911 so lets not blame it on grief. I'll admit, grief isn't helping anything, but this started a long while back. Now that Wade has hit his limit, it's him being inconsiderate of his lovers feelings?

 

I have always thought people who decided what school to attend based on where a friend or significant other goes to be somewhat short sighted. If all the other factors are equal, comparable curriculum and reputations etc., then by all means chose the school your lover goes to. But if it comes to a choice between a really good school for your chosen career, and one that may be great for your lover but only acceptable for you, you would be compromising both your futures to choose the latter. Not all schools can be great for everyone. Harvard may be a great law school, but MIT would be better for someone looking at technology wouldn't it? Matt may not be Harvard material, but then, Wade may not be an appropriate student at what ever grad school Matt chooses.

 

I don't remember anyone saying Wade was being self centered for not considering Matt when it comes to his grad school. I also don't remember Matt & Wade having a conversation (recently) about which specific law schools Wade should apply to so Matt could go to graduate business school nearby, Here is what Wade thought in chapter 70:

 

  “I’m not sure I can get into their MBA program,” he said, broaching the issue we needed to talk about, but that I was dreading.

 

So Wade was aware of the issue, he too had been avoiding it, but has already made the decision as he says later.

 

  “I’m going to go to the best law school I can get into.  I’m going to make that decision based on my future, and my career.  Whether you decide to join me depends on two things.  First, it depends on whether you like the choice I made.  And second, it depends on whether you can grow the fuck up, and quit acting like a fucking frat boy.

 

So again, Wade was aware of the need to talk to Matt, but never broached the topic because he was dreading the conversation, but now he has made the unilateral decision and has said in so many words that he doesn't really care about what Matt's needs are. If Wade has never had the grad school talk with Matt specifically (about where each should apply) and they've never talked about what each other wants and expects in the relationship going forward, then centexhairysub is right, it IS Wade who is to blame for an ensuing break-up.

 

Matt was making an effort in the car and Wade kept shooting him down. The Wade of previous chapters might have delayed the talk and not made rash statements and taken rash actions, but the Wade who is channeling Will's petulance didn't do that.

 

Wade is being somewhat disingenuous with his "best for my career and future" speech. Wade has no worry for his future, he has enough money that he could make a full time career out of managing the money he already has and pay himself a salary double what any law firm could offer him to do it. Wade hasn't really laid out why he wants to law school other than vague notions that he ought to. He hasn't exhibited any passion for a business where the law degree is a plus, he hasn't exhibited a passion for the law to want to be judge and he's vaguely referenced politics. My law school classmates went to law school for four reasons and you could almost predict who was going where; group one wanted to go into law to get rich, group two had an existing passion that they wanted to pursue with a law degree, group three loved the law itself and group four was already laying out their political future. So some people may have changed directions after law school as they matured and found different interests, but by and large they all had distinct motives going in. I don't see distinct motives in Wade.

 

As someone pointed out, Wade hasn't even considered his new little brother yet in his graduate school plans and and he indicates he has thought about Reilly, but apparently he hasn't had that conversation with Tiffany either about what her plans might be and where does she want to live. So while I don't recall anyone calling Wade self centered, maybe he is being self centered and for no good reason.

 

My problem With Wade in this last chapter is that he is mad at Matt over a conversation they haven't had yet and he is equally responsible for that conversation taking place. Or not.

 

That's just a backhanded way to say centexsub is wrong

 

No is it a direct way of saying he is spot on in his observations this time, he is just wrong usually

[Kitt]

 

 

My problem With Wade in this last chapter is that he is mad at Matt over a conversation they haven't had yet and he is equally responsible for that conversation taking place. Or not.

 

 

 

Wade is angry with Matt over so much more than the one aborted conversation about grad school. You cannot look at one specific incident and make sweeping assumptions. The conversation you sighted that "didn't take place" is a symptom of the much bigger problems they have.

[mmike1969]

Wade is mad because Matt is ignoring Wade and his needs. It's not about Matt still being a slut because they both have been sleeping around.

 

Kind of like how Matt was pissed at Wade when he was ignoring Matt in Bloodlines?

 

Stanford Law: yeah Wade already said he needed a change of scenery so that is out.

 

Re Zach: For someone that claims to wanting to keep his secret about him being gay, he is leaving a LOT of evidence behind (John, Will, Gathan)...

Not to mention just about everyone now living at Escorial knows about Will/Zach ( Stef, JJ, Brad, Wade).

On top of that, (based on personal experience), I am guessing the football coach has a clue too!

 

And put this in perspective: Wade' mom had a clue when Matt visited in Bloodlines, Tony's mom had a clue, and you can't tell me that no one at Wally/Clara Hayes house had a clue that Zach and Gathan were getting it on!

Edited January 31, 2014 by mmike1969

[Mark Arbour]

I don't remember anyone saying Wade was being self centered for not considering Matt when it comes to his grad school. I also don't remember Matt & Wade having a conversation (recently) about which specific law schools Wade should apply to so Matt could go to graduate business school nearby, Here is what Wade thought in chapter 70:

 

  “I’m not sure I can get into their MBA program,” he said, broaching the issue we needed to talk about, but that I was dreading.

 

So Wade was aware of the issue, he too had been avoiding it, but has already made the decision as he says later.

 

  “I’m going to go to the best law school I can get into.  I’m going to make that decision based on my future, and my career.  Whether you decide to join me depends on two things.  First, it depends on whether you like the choice I made.  And second, it depends on whether you can grow the fuck up, and quit acting like a fucking frat boy.

 

So again, Wade was aware of the need to talk to Matt, but never broached the topic because he was dreading the conversation, but now he has made the unilateral decision and has said in so many words that he doesn't really care about what Matt's needs are. If Wade has never had the grad school talk with Matt specifically (about where each should apply) and they've never talked about what each other wants and expects in the relationship going forward, then centexhairysub is right, it IS Wade who is to blame for an ensuing break-up.

 

Matt was making an effort in the car and Wade kept shooting him down. The Wade of previous chapters might have delayed the talk and not made rash statements and taken rash actions, but the Wade who is channeling Will's petulance didn't do that.

 

Wade is being somewhat disingenuous with his "best for my career and future" speech. Wade has no worry for his future, he has enough money that he could make a full time career out of managing the money he already has and pay himself a salary double what any law firm could offer him to do it. Wade hasn't really laid out why he wants to law school other than vague notions that he ought to. He hasn't exhibited any passion for a business where the law degree is a plus, he hasn't exhibited a passion for the law to want to be judge and he's vaguely referenced politics. My law school classmates went to law school for four reasons and you could almost predict who was going where; group one wanted to go into law to get rich, group two had an existing passion that they wanted to pursue with a law degree, group three loved the law itself and group four was already laying out their political future. So some people may have changed directions after law school as they matured and found different interests, but by and large they all had distinct motives going in. I don't see distinct motives in Wade.

 

As someone pointed out, Wade hasn't even considered his new little brother yet in his graduate school plans and and he indicates he has thought about Reilly, but apparently he hasn't had that conversation with Tiffany either about what her plans might be and where does she want to live. So while I don't recall anyone calling Wade self centered, maybe he is being self centered and for no good reason.

 

My problem With Wade in this last chapter is that he is mad at Matt over a conversation they haven't had yet and he is equally responsible for that conversation taking place. Or not.

 

 

No is it a direct way of saying he is spot on in his observations this time, he is just wrong usually

 

As I said in a review response, relationship problems are rarely the fault of only one party.  I think that in this situation, Wade is being a little petulant, but I think he has grounds to be.  In a sense, Matt has closed him off, and alienated him by the deal with Tony, so Wade is closing Matt off too.  That is what I think is most symptomatic about their lack of conversation about their plans ahead.  If I were Matt, I would hopefully realize that Wade is basically planning to make the next steps in his life alone. 

 

I think where Wade is on shaky ground is his view of their relationship timeline.  If you notice, he seems to be equating everything from 9-11, and that makes sense, since it was such a jarring moment in their lives.  He seems to have forgotten the times before then, the really good times, especially the way Matt jumped in like a white knight and saved him from his abusive family situation. 

 

The law school issue makes sense, especially from your perspective, but with Wade it's almost less about passion than duty, a pre-ordained path that he is going to walk.  Wade is so organized, and had his educational future pretty much lined out when we met him as a freshman in Bloodlines.  It's possible things have changed, but he's given no indication that is the case.   So I'll add to your list of passions: for Wade, it's not about money, it's about tradition. 

 

 

Wade is mad because Matt is ignoring Wade and his needs. It's not about Matt still being a slut because they both have been sleeping around.

 

Kind of like how Matt was pissed at Wade when he was ignoring Matt in Bloodlines?

 

Stanford Law: yeah Wade already said he needed a change of scenery so that is out.

 

Re Zach: For someone that claims to wanting to keep his secret about him being gay, he is leaving a LOT of evidence behind (John, Will, Gathan)...

Not to mention just about everyone now living at Escorial knows about Will/Zach ( Stef, JJ, Brad, Wade).

On top of that, (based on personal experience), I am guessing the football coach has a clue too!

 

And put this in perspective: Wade' mom had a clue when Matt visited in Bloodlines, Tony's mom had a clue, and you can't tell me that no one at Wally/Clara Hayes house had a clue that Zach and Gathan were getting it on!

 

I can see that really bothering Zach, but I think (harkening back to Bloodlines again) it's a bit like it was for Wade when he and Matt first became a couple and went up to Escorial: It's a safe place.  No one there is going to out him, and as big of a dick as Gathan may think Zach is (and may be to him), he won't either.  It's a broad circle, but a safe circle.

 

I'm willing to bet that Wally and Clara are oblivious: Clara by choice, and Wally because he's clueless about Zach and what drives him.

[Daddydavek]

Wade's moving to a separate room at Escorial may also indicate that like Will he thinks he needs some space to sort some things out, especially his own feelings about a lot of the issues which have been discussed both here in the forum and in the reviews.  He is a thoughtful kind of guy and used to having a plan and back-up plans for contingencies.  These take some thought and right now Matt in his mind, is more of an annoying distraction than a help.   He does need to remember that Matt was his white knight in shiny armor who helped him in his confrontation with his father and also all the good times prior to 9.11 but he is still processing 9.11 and he hasn't gotten much beyond it.   

 

Meanwhile, I suspect that Matt will be hurt beyond words over Wade moving to a separate room and I hope he decides to seek professional help rather than just doing something sophomoric and stupid.  

[Mark Arbour]

...I hope he decides to seek professional help rather than just doing something sophomoric and stupid.  

 

Snaugh.

[Kitt]

  Meanwhile, I suspect that Matt will be hurt beyond words over Wade moving to a separate room and I hope he decides to seek professional help rather than just doing something sophomoric and stupid.  

The glitch with that is seeking help is not a strong point of anyone in this story. Every single one who is in therapy had been more or less forced into it by someone that cares about them. Therapy was recommended, and an appointment made for Matt by Stef back when Matt had his discussion with JP. The only hint we have had about it is Matt's whine about it conflicting with hockey practice. As it the usual for this family, when help was offered, in several different forms, it has been firmly rebuffed.

ok - Mark said the same thing in one word LOL

[mmike1969]

I'm willing to bet that Wally and Clara are oblivious: Clara by choice, and Wally because he's clueless about Zach and what drives him.

Yeah, now that I think about it, 5 teenage males in the house and Clara is going to have to ignore what the boys are doing or she might really freak out or start doing things like wear latex gloves around the house

Edited January 31, 2014 by mmike1969

[Daddydavek]

Snaugh.

 

The glitch with that is seeking help is not a strong point of anyone in this story. Every single one who is in therapy had been more or less forced into it by someone that cares about them. Therapy was recommended, and an appointment made for Matt by Stef back when Matt had his discussion with JP. The only hint we have had about it is Matt's whine about it conflicting with hockey practice. As it the usual for this family, when help was offered, in several different forms, it has been firmly rebuffed.

ok - Mark said the same thing in one word LOL

 

I made my point.  And it is the basis for my speculating that it might be Matt who ends up joining the military......

[mmike1969]

I made my point. And it is the basis for my speculating that it might be Matt who ends up joining the military......

He's openly gay so no that is not an option. Zach on the other hand..,

[rjo]

I always thought it would be Darius, Matt wouldn't make it out of basic training. His temper.

[mmike1969]

I always thought it would be Darius, Matt wouldn't make it out of basic training. His temper.

That and sleeping with everyone at basic traing including his drill instructors (males and females).

 

Kind of defeats the purpose of DADT.

[PrivateTim]

Wade is angry with Matt over so much more than the one aborted conversation about grad school. You cannot look at one specific incident and make sweeping assumptions. The conversation you sighted that "didn't take place" is a symptom of the much bigger problems they have.

 

You sure seem to have a hard time comprehending my points.

 

My point is not about an aborted conversation, it is about the many, many opportunities for conversations, even before 9-11, to talk about the future that Wade never initiated. Wade is the one with family responsibilities (Reilly and Ethan), Wade is the one with more options and Wade is supposed to be "the mature one". There have been many general conversations since Bloodlines about going to grad school in the same area, but no specific discussion around GPAs and LSAT/GMAT scores. While I think it is understood that Matt's GPA isn't as high as Wade's, I think it is also pretty well understood that he good enough grades for a top tier B-school, maybe note Harvard or Yale, but certainly good enough for Boston College & UConn. And they could both probably get into USC/UCLA and that would be advantageous for family obligations.

 

Since Wade is the one considering disrupting the general plans, it would have been up to him to broach the topic and not in anger or as part of a lashing out, but as an adult conversation.

 

On the same line, since there were not a lot of rules in who Matt & Wade could bed, if Wade wants to change the rules, he needs to broach that topic too. You can't be mad at someone for doing something wrong, if they don't understand it is wrong.

[mmike1969]

How can Wade disrupt plans that were never made by Matt in the first place?

 

If anything Matt still lives in the past (as his statement of wanting to go back to before 9/11) and not will not move forward. Progress is not in Matt's nature.

[methodwriter85]

    I totally forgot that Matt being openly gay would prevent him from being in the military. It's funny how it's only been legal for two years or so, and I've forgotten that it even used to be an issue. It's like when Brad and Robbie had the conversation about how there was no place in the world where gay men could get married, in late 1999/early 2000, which was true and seems crazy in retrospect.

 

    I can't see Zach in the military for the same reason I could never see Will in the military- they're too fiercely individual, and not really a team player. One of the crucial things about the military is breaking down the individual so that they reform and conform into a unit, and I can't see Zach ever doing that. He's too much of a lone wolf.

 

    In any event, Matt clearly never brought up future grad plans other than some vague stuff about him and Wade being together, so I can't blame Wade for making a clear-cut decision and going with it, with Matt either being with it or not.

Edited February 1, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

I would be interested in what went on during the weekend away with Frank.  We already know Matt has blown off at least one of the instructions Frank gave him at dinner, to leave the hockey team. We know that the appointment with the shrink Stef made for him conflicted with practice. I would love to know if he kept it or did he put the team first again? Nothing has been said about him bedding anyone since Halloween, has he complied with Frank's demand he "stop being a slut"? He may have been trying to reach out to Will when he canceled the car and decided to pick the guys up at the airport, but it was a bit backhanded. Knowing Will is pissed with him and having been told to stay out of his face, I wonder why it didn't occur to him that changing the plan without telling Will would set off Will's temper again?

 

Senior year as I remember is when decisions like this are made, and by the time the senior year had started 911 had occurred and things got out of control fast. It was said on several occasions in the text that Matt had been turning away from Wade, that they were barely speaking. Makes discussions about grad school very difficult when you cant get the other guy to talk about what's happening on the weekend, let alone next year.

 

I also wonder why Tim seems to think Wade should compromise his academic goals for Matt's benefit?

 

 

 There have been many general conversations since Bloodlines about going to grad school in the same area, but no specific discussion around GPAs and LSAT/GMAT scores. While I think it is understood that Matt's GPA isn't as high as Wade's, I think it is also pretty well understood that he good enough grades for a top tier B-school, maybe note Harvard or Yale, but certainly good enough for Boston College & UConn. 

 

 

 Why should Wade settle for a B-tier school when he can get into the A list? 

[PrivateTim]

How can Wade disrupt plans that were never made by Matt in the first place?

 

If anything Matt still lives in the past (as his statement of wanting to go back to before 9/11) and not will not move forward. Progress is not in Matt's nature.

 

I guess I don't understand the question. The only plans made so far have been the general plans to do graduate school in the same area and that was a mutually understood plan, even if it wasn't much of a plan it was something they both understood. It wasn't Matt's plans, it was both of their plan.

 

    I totally forgot that Matt being openly gay would prevent him from being in the military. It's funny how it's only been legal for two years or so,

 

In any event, Matt clearly never brought up future grad plans other than some vague stuff about him and Wade being together, so I can't blame Wade for making a clear-cut decision and going with it, with Matt either being with it or not.

 

Matt being openly gay now would not preclude him joining the military. That was the whole point of DADT. The military was specifically barred from asking about sexual orientation. It would mean that Matt could not be openly gay once he joined, that is the don't tell part.

 

But as long as he didn't tell and wasn't outrageous in his behavior he'd get along like all the other gays in the military. I have yet to see a U.S. Navy or Marine Corps base that didn't have a gay bar within easy reach of the main gate. Gays didn't start joining the military in 1994, they started in 1775 and have been there ever since.

 

As to planning, yes you can blame Wade for making a clear cut decision if he didn't talk to Matt about it first. If it was only Matt who was bringing up "vague plans" about grad school together then when Matt brought up the vague plans, if Wade had different thoughts, it was up to him to voice those different thoughts and discuss them. That is what partners do.

Senior year as I remember is when decisions like this are made, and by the time the senior year had started 911 had occurred and things got out of control fast. It was said on several occasions in the text that Matt had been turning away from Wade, that they were barely speaking. Makes discussions about grad school very difficult when you cant get the other guy to talk about what's happening on the weekend, let alone next year.

 

I also wonder why Tim seems to think Wade should compromise his academic goals for Matt's benefit?

 

 Why should Wade settle for a B-tier school when he can get into the A list? 

 

Senior year is when you make the decision as to where you are going, but you settle on your list well before that, usually not later than March in the year before you intend to start law school. So in Wade's case in March of 2001 would have been when he was making some decisions, like which law schools to have his LSAT results sent to for law school admission in the fall of 2002. He would want to take the LSAT in June 2001 so he has an opportunity to retake the test in Oct or Dec if he has(d) to, hence the March date to register for the June test.

 

And who is talking about a B-tier law school (called Tier 2 actually)? Michigan, Boalt Hall, UVA, Chicago, etc are not Tier 2 schools, they are all Tier 1. Georgetown Law is rated below all these schools and barely above USC and UCLA. Wade doesn't have to compromise a single thing when choosing a law school since as long as Matt knows where Wade is applying, Matt can find an MBA program in the same area. It doesn't need to be the same school.

 

And since Matt would have had to take the GMAT, probably not too different a process than the LSAT one, he'd have to have an idea where he was applying to already too.