Westie Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 There is a certain tribalism in this forum that makes people fall into camps. Those people can be "team Will". They can be (very forcefully) Anti-Will. They can be pro-Wade or pro-Matt. You would be forgiven for thinking that Will is either the anti-christ, or the most perfect teen that ever lived, depending on who you listen to. We seem to have similar viewpoints over who is/isn't the guilty party in the breakup of Matt and Wade. Things are rarely as black and white as all that. Will has some good points. He can also be infuriating and immature and has one hell of a temper. He also has - perhaps - emotional baggage that explains some of this behaviour, but for all that it would be wrong to try and defend the absolute extremes of his outbursts as valid. I think you have to take a more circumspect view, that we have a guy who essentially "good" in his heart, but that under certain conditions has trouble controlling his anger, and is blind to "where the line is". And while that behaviour is "explainable", that doesn't mean that it is "excusable". We have Matt, who has screwed Will over (the extent to which that should matter is of course open for some debate). But when I suggest the idea that Matt himself is "damaged" - all the "pro-Will" camp get very defensive. But let me ask you this; the alternative is that Matt is hell bent on burning every bridge he has. Even if Matt is weak willed and stupid, do you imagine he does that unless he is seriously screwed up too? I think some people here need to remember that not everyone's motives in every situation are black and white; not every motive is one we are aware of or understand even as we are doing stuff; not everyone strategises and thinks before they act. More too, we need to remember that some of these people are YOUNG. They might have flashes of maturity, but they don't have the luxury of experience to help guide their decisions. Screwing up BIG and screwing up EARLY might be the making of them in later life. 1
Kitt Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Thank you for the info on grad school admissions Tim. I will bow to your knowledge. Other than that - YOU were the one who brought up top tier-B schools, and that Matt should have the grades for them. If you look - it was not a misunderstanding of what you said or a misquote. It was a direct quote of your post. I simply asked why Wade should settle for that if he has tier-A grades? 1
PrivateTim Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Thank you for the info on grad school admissions Tim. I will bow to your knowledge. Other than that - YOU were the one who brought up top tier-B schools, and that Matt should have the grades for them. If you look - it was not a misunderstanding of what you said or a misquote. It was a direct quote of your post. I simply asked why Wade should settle for that if he has tier-A grades? I think you misunderstand, "top tier B-school" is top tier Business school; Matt is going to graduate business school and he can get into top tier business schools like UCLA, USC, Haas, Kellogg, etc. The only ones he might not get into are Harvard, Stanford, Sloan, maybe Wharton, but even at a couple of those schools Brad or Stef might be able to call in enough favors to get help. Edited February 1, 2014 by PrivateTim
methodwriter85 Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Matt being openly gay now would not preclude him joining the military. That was the whole point of DADT. The military was specifically barred from asking about sexual orientation. It would mean that Matt could not be openly gay once he joined, that is the don't tell part. You do realize that Matt is not just openly gay, but his romance with Wade has been broadcasted in tabloids since 1999, right? It would be like if 1990's Chad Allen post-outing tried to join the DADT army. There's no way it could happen because you can't really turn a blind eye to it. Edited February 2, 2014 by methodwriter85 2
B1ue Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) RE Chapter 70, I may have literally said out loud "For fuck's sake, Frank, that's not helping," when he asked if Will had checked with Wally and Clara. I hope Wade doesn't crack under the pressure he's putting on himself, and that Matt figures out exactly why all these changes he doesn't seem to understand are being demanded of him. I think it will be only when he figures that out that he'll be able to part with Wade on anything resembling good terms. Because I do think that they'll break up. Not because Matt can't change, but because Wade can't. He can't seem to afford someone like Matt in his life, and even if Matt jumps through all the hoops, I'm worried there will just be something else down the road. That's not to say I disagree with Wade's choices. They make sense to his character. But I'm curious what kind of person Wade can be with at this moment in his life. I kind of think he needs someone like his mother, someone willing to turn a blind eye to his personal affairs while she helps him mange his public duties. I wonder where Gathan is at? Or if Maryellen has friends she trusts. Edited February 2, 2014 by B1ue 2
rjo Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 It seems that we are looking at Matt and Wade differently. I see Matt stuck in the past as the BMOC. Wade is looking forward to the future, grad school and his future. As for who Wade could love, his lawyer Sean would fit. They both are looking to the future. Honestly, at this point I don't understand Matt. Back in Bloodlines I liked Matt his was happy maybe a little confused but out there looking for love, and not just sex. He thought it could be this person (Cody) and then that person (Cole), Then a night of cuddling with Wade changed everything. At first they had a rocky start but then things seemed to work out. It was only later when Matt was seeing Carl that things began to fray. Matt wanted to see other people, Wade would rather it just be the two of them. So here we are can it be fixed? Things look bad. Two people going two different directions. 2
B1ue Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) It seems that we are looking at Matt and Wade differently. I see Matt stuck in the past as the BMOC. Wade is looking forward to the future, grad school and his future. As for who Wade could love, his lawyer Sean would fit. They both are looking to the future. Honestly, at this point I don't understand Matt. Back in Bloodlines I liked Matt his was happy maybe a little confused but out there looking for love, and not just sex. He thought it could be this person (Cody) and then that person (Cole), Then a night of cuddling with Wade changed everything. At first they had a rocky start but then things seemed to work out. It was only later when Matt was seeing Carl that things began to fray. Matt wanted to see other people, Wade would rather it just be the two of them. So here we are can it be fixed? Things look bad. Two people going two different directions. I do see Matt as trying to still be the big man on campus. I just don't see anything particularly wrong with that, considering his age and station. For Wade, it'd be a terrible fit, but for Matt it makes sense. Further, not only are they going in different directions in their lives, but they are healing in different ways, and those ways happen to be exacerbating their current dilemma. For Wade, it looks like he's trying to manage his greatly increased responsibilities, and focus on those exclusively. I actually have a great deal of sympathy for that, and his frustration with someone who doesn't seem to be taking on any responsibilities at all. Not that this is a fair description, but I imagine that's what Matt looks like to Wade about now. And I do have respect for people that *deal* by throwing themselves into work and effort. It's something I try to emulate but all too often don't manage. Matt, on the other hand, is dealing by not dealing, by using sensory overload to wash himself out. And I have quite a bit of sympathy for that too, as long as he manages it. Which, relationship issues aside, he seems to be doing (he's still going to class and functioning, more or less). If he were a real person, I actually would wonder about the wisdom of him dropping all his activities all at once. Because the only other emotional channel I am aware of that's as effective as sex and sports is drug use. Well, writing, but that isn't for everyone. As it is, I'm only curious what direction this will go. Edit: Actually, I do see one thing different from my own interpretation and that of the majority. I don't see Matt as stuck in the past. I see him as stuck in the present. Wade has moved on, because he had to in order to cope. But Matt didn't need to move that fast, and I don't know if his character, as we see it presented, will pull it off in time, or if it will even matter. Because even if he does everything Wade and Frank have told him, he'll still be a college student errant, and Wade will still be a father and landed gentry. Edited February 2, 2014 by B1ue 3
Kitt Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 That's not to say I disagree with Wade's choices. They make sense to his character. But I'm curious what kind of person Wade can be with at this moment in his life. I kind of think he needs someone like his mother, someone willing to turn a blind eye to his personal affairs while she helps him mange his public duties. I wonder where Gathan is at? Or if Maryellen has friends she trusts. I agree with everything you said except this. Someone like his mother would be detrimental to his career, his family as it exists outside the immediate relationship, and to his mental health. I think if he had a partner that wasn't sleeping with anything that smiled prettily at him that Wade could be quite happy and not be HAVING "personal affairs" to turn a blind eye to. And you are right Matt's being BMOC would not be a problem if it were not for the fact that he has (for now) Wade. I know the word fidelity just does not seem to fit into the CAP family vocabulary as it pertains to romance, but it certainly does as it pertains to family. Matt doesn't seem to get that. He needs to get his act together and start behaving like a member of the family. If he wants Wade to be considerate of his opinions on grad school, where they live, and the rest, shouldn't he be there for Wade too? Something else to consider that no one has touched on yet. Wade has a son that is about a year old. His partner SHOULD be looking at that child as his son too. Matt entered into that threesome with Tiffany with the intent to get her pregnant. He could just have easily turned out to be the dad. Yet we see no indication that he even admits Reilly exists. Had it been his little swimmer won the race, would he still be sleeping around and partying like a rock star? Kids just don't fit with the BMOC image i guess. Yes - people will say "well they didn't and he isn't the father," but I ask - isn't he? I would expect my partner to be a responsible parent no matter who's DNA completed the equation. Shouldn't Wade want the same thing? 2
Henson Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 You do realize that Matt is not just openly gay, but his romance with Wade has been broadcasted in tabloids since 1999, right? It would be like if 1990's Chad Allen post-outing tried to join the DADT army. There's no way it could happen because you can't really turn a blind eye to it. Correct. Also, as someone who not only lived DADT, but was instrumental in getting it repealed, it was much less benign than it was sold to be. The reality of the policy is that there was a law which made it illegal - not in the sense of not allowed, but in the sense of being punishable - for any person with "a propensity to engage in homosexual acts" to be in the military. DADT was a myth - congress passed a law outlawing the existence of gay people. No one who was a known, out, gay person could realistically last long under the policy. Things written in private emails, diaries, and even communications which would be privileged in civilian life (such as disclosures to psychiatrists and chaplains) were cause for people to be kicked out and, occasionally, prosecuted under that policy. Were people out? Yes, but not generally going into it. We came out AFTER we were already safely a known factor. In essence, we were safe because, "oh, Henson isn't one of THOSE gays, so he's ok. We'll just keep it quiet because he's one of ours." If anyone was out at any point in the months or years of training prior to arrival at a unit, they were fired pretty damned quick. 3
Henson Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 I separated this post out because it makes a separate point. Don't caricature the military. You know not if what you speak. Most of the more fiercely self-sufficient, confident, smart, and individualistic people I know I met in the military. It is not a monolithic group only open to people willing to strictly conform. It is also not overwhelmingly conservative, not any more - and with damned good reason. We're the ones who really got screwed by Bush. 3
Mark Arbour Posted February 2, 2014 Author Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) There are those days when I open up this forum, start reading, and am just stunned at the cool stuff people post. This is one of those days. Special kudos to Westie for reminding us that no one is perfect, to B1ue for so deftly summarizing Matt and Wade's situation, to Kitt for finding the one small nit to pick in B1ue's summation, and to Henson for his insights into the DADT military. :worship: :worship: Edited February 2, 2014 by Mark Arbour 1
Mark Arbour Posted February 2, 2014 Author Posted February 2, 2014 I agree with everything you said except this. Someone like his mother would be detrimental to his career, his family as it exists outside the immediate relationship, and to his mental health. I think if he had a partner that wasn't sleeping with anything that smiled prettily at him that Wade could be quite happy and not be HAVING "personal affairs" to turn a blind eye to. And you are right Matt's being BMOC would not be a problem if it were not for the fact that he has (for now) Wade. I know the word fidelity just does not seem to fit into the CAP family vocabulary as it pertains to romance, but it certainly does as it pertains to family. Matt doesn't seem to get that. He needs to get his act together and start behaving like a member of the family. If he wants Wade to be considerate of his opinions on grad school, where they live, and the rest, shouldn't he be there for Wade too? Something else to consider that no one has touched on yet. Wade has a son that is about a year old. His partner SHOULD be looking at that child as his son too. Matt entered into that threesome with Tiffany with the intent to get her pregnant. He could just have easily turned out to be the dad. Yet we see no indication that he even admits Reilly exists. Had it been his little swimmer won the race, would he still be sleeping around and partying like a rock star? Kids just don't fit with the BMOC image i guess. Yes - people will say "well they didn't and he isn't the father," but I ask - isn't he? I would expect my partner to be a responsible parent no matter who's DNA completed the equation. Shouldn't Wade want the same thing? I think Wade needs someone who is a little more adventurous than him, and a lot more spontaneous. Matt does that. But he also needs someone he can trust absolutely, and who is stable enough that he doesn't take Wade on wild, emotional roller coaster rides. Someone who can be a partner, a true partner. 2
George Richard Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 I think you misunderstand, "top tier B-school" is top tier Business school; Matt is going to graduate business school and he can get into top tier business schools like UCLA, USC, Haas, Kellogg, etc. The only ones he might not get into are Harvard, Stanford, Sloan, maybe Wharton, but even at a couple of those schools Brad or Stef might be able to call in enough favors to get help.You left out Method's choice, Chicago, which ranks with Harvard/Stanford/Sloan/Wharton but at that point would have been a little easier to get into. And if I remember right, Stef went there, so Matt might be considered a legacy admission.
methodwriter85 Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 I'm pretty sure a recommendation from Stefan would have been a major plus for someone trying to go to Chicago. I separated this post out because it makes a separate point. Don't caricature the military. You know not if what you speak. Most of the more fiercely self-sufficient, confident, smart, and individualistic people I know I met in the military. It is not a monolithic group only open to people willing to strictly conform. Right. In any event, I still think Zach and Will's attitudes and unwillingness to be a team player more than anything else would have kept them out of the military, forget DADT.
PrivateTim Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 You left out Method's choice, Chicago, which ranks with Harvard/Stanford/Sloan/Wharton but at that point would have been a little easier to get into. And if I remember right, Stef went there, so Matt might be considered a legacy admission. Didn't really leave it out but I thought at one time there was a discussion about Chicago being too conservative for Wade because of the Federalist Society ties.
mmike1969 Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) I can finally post my review to chapter 71. I have NO sympathy for Matt. He has known since chapter 66 he was in danger of loosing Wade and has done nothing to improve on that. Yes, it has been only 3 days story wise but come on. JP and Frank both told Matt he is going to lose Wade if he did not change. This is typical Matt being disconnected from reality: From chapter 70: “That’s your decision,” I said, so annoyed with him. “You still planning to fuck everyone on campus?” “No,” he said. “I’ve been really extreme. That ends now.” “So what are you going to do? Are you still going to sleep with other guys?” “You want to be monogamous, for us to be exclusive?” he asked, and seemed shocked that I’d want that. I felt the anger surging, and I almost laughed at how Will thought I was unemotional. Well Matt, WTF is your idea of being less extreme? You knew again you were going to lose Wade and only in chapt 71 you say "I got to do something". Enough of analyzing Matt... My favorite lines -> Darius and Will: The door opened and Darius peeked in. “You’re not beating off, are you?” “Not yet. Why? Wanna watch?” Tiffany: “It would be nice if you idiots could give me a little more notice before leaving,” she snapped. JJ and Will: JJ looked at me and raised an eyebrow. “Seriously?” He saw me glare at that comment. “I thought you guys were just friends.” “We’re good for each other,” I said simply. “How? And don’t tell me all about the gross sex parts.” “You’re getting to be as uptight as Darius,” I joked. “I need someone to help me deal with all this shit, and he needs someone to prop him up.” Edited February 3, 2014 by mmike1969 2
Daddydavek Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 My take on chapter 71 regarding Matt is a little different. He didn't go storming off, but asked JP for his thoughts. JP provided some excellent insight and the ball is now really in Matt's court to see if he takes any of it and runs with it or decides to ignore it. Somehow I get the impression our convoluted author is laying the groundwork to bring Matt back into the good graces of his soulmate. But then again, maybe not. As far as Will goes. He again explained to another person (Steff) the bit about Zach's statement to Bret that Gathan seems to have told everyone. So Will understands that Zach will never be outed without a strong denial. And that is where Will could end up being hurt. Deep down I think Will gets that, but it would still be devastating if it happens or when it happens and involves a public denial/putdown of Will by Zach. 2
Mark Arbour Posted February 4, 2014 Author Posted February 4, 2014 So Will understands that Zach will never be outed without a strong denial. And that is where Will could end up being hurt. Deep down I think Will gets that, but it would still be devastating if it happens or when it happens and involves a public denial/putdown of Will by Zach. I think Will would be hurt by that whether it's public or not.
PrivateTim Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 From my Chapter 71 Review: (Chapter 71 Review)Two lines in this chapter bother me greatly, as I think both illustrate something about Will I've been saying for a long while:“Everyone in this family knows that there are two people you don’t poke unless you want a good fight on your hands: Dad and Will. (from DariusOThat got him an angry look, enough to make him recoil (Will talking with Stef)So everyone in the family knows Will is a psycho bitch and it is best not to cross him? Why should the rest of the family walk on egg shells worrying about how Will is going to react.The second one, Will giving a look to his grandfather, who has been nothing but supportive of him from his Roman holiday pole dance, through his running away, etc, bad enough to make him recoil says a lot about how completely out of control Will's emotions are and why he is deeply in need of real therapy. Sexual healing only works for Marvin Gaye. Reply from Mark Arbour (author) There are some people who pride themselves on not taking a lot of shit from other people, and Will's definitely in that category. It's not about him being scary or unpredictable, it's knowing that if you go after him, he's going to fight. That's his reaction. Some people flee, some people surrender, but Will (and Brad) don't do that. We can contrast this with JJ, who when embattled, will ultimately get bitchy, or pout. That's a lot different than how Will handles things.As for the dour look, it wasn't an "I hate you" malicious look, it was a "you need to stay out of my business" look. A warning look, if you will. Very common in my family, and it usually registers and the topic is changed. So here are my thoughts on Mark's reply. Will goes far beyond "not taking shit" and fighting back, he lashes out, he is vicious and then he flees. As to the interaction with Stef, it wasn't a dour look, it was an "angry look" that made him "recoil"; a recoil is a jump back in fear or horror. Dour looks don't make people recoil. It may seem picayune, but I think there is a big difference between angry (and the reaction it caused) and dour (and whatever reaction it would have engendered). As to what is going to happen when Zach has to distance himself from his cousin, surely by now tongues have to be wagging at Don Bosco given the amount of time Zach has spent with Will over the last few weeks. If Will is aware that Zach can not be out given that Zach hasn't admitted anything about his sexuality yet, he out to be coming up with a contingency plan where Zach can either disown him publicly as a "dirty little fag" (or whatever epithet he chooses) or they can have their denial stories straight (unless another Schluter forgets to lock a door). It is better to plan for denials then to have to come up with them on the fly.
Mark Arbour Posted February 5, 2014 Author Posted February 5, 2014 As to what is going to happen when Zach has to distance himself from his cousin, surely by now tongues have to be wagging at Don Bosco given the amount of time Zach has spent with Will over the last few weeks. If Will is aware that Zach can not be out given that Zach hasn't admitted anything about his sexuality yet, he out to be coming up with a contingency plan where Zach can either disown him publicly as a "dirty little fag" (or whatever epithet he chooses) or they can have their denial stories straight (unless another Schluter forgets to lock a door). It is better to plan for denials then to have to come up with them on the fly. That kind of foresight and planning is unlikely to happen, since neither one of them is even going to acknowledge that as a possibility, or even see it as an eventuality. So if it happens, I'm seeing a messy, on the fly thing. Then again, the entire situation may change, and it may be just fine. I don't know yet. 2
mmike1969 Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) That kind of foresight and planning is unlikely to happen, since neither one of them is even going to acknowledge that as a possibility, or even see it as an eventuality. So if it happens, I'm seeing a messy, on the fly thing. Then again, the entire situation may change, and it may be just fine. I don't know yet. i have an idea . Have Zach and Tony hook-up... Edited February 5, 2014 by mmike1969 1
Daddydavek Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 With all the cold weather, I'm surprised Mark hasn't written a chapter taking us back to Will's house in Hawaii for a get-away weekend. Just to get the chance to write about sunshine, warm weather, boys in board shorts....Something to warm the heart. 1
John Prz Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 If Zach kooked up with Tony, I think we will see a double omicide. As how Will is now, if Zach ever even think to do that i can see him being shipped along with Wally to Siberia. with the compliments of Brad two fast question: 1 Where were last seen Alejandro and Hot Jeff? 2 who can tell me in which chapter Matt meet his biological half siblings?
Mark Arbour Posted February 6, 2014 Author Posted February 6, 2014 i have an idea . Have Zach and Tony hook-up... That would probably send Will into an apocalyptic meltdown. Then everyone would bitch about how immature he was. With all the cold weather, I'm surprised Mark hasn't written a chapter taking us back to Will's house in Hawaii for a get-away weekend. Just to get the chance to write about sunshine, warm weather, boys in board shorts....Something to warm the heart. It is so tempting, but then I'd get jealous and bitchy. If Zach kooked up with Tony, I think we will see a double omicide. As how Will is now, if Zach ever even think to do that i can see him being shipped along with Wally to Siberia. with the compliments of Brad two fast question: 1 Where were last seen Alejandro and Hot Jeff? 2 who can tell me in which chapter Matt meet his biological half siblings? We haven't seen Hot Jeff for a while. I'm not sure he's even been in this book. Matt meets his half-siblings at the beginning of "The Box."
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