So, how do we feel about fan fiction?

[W_L]

Uh....whenever Twilight fan fiction is mentioned, I automatically think of Fifty Shades of Grey That is commercially, the most successful fan fic story ever, but literally, I don't think any of us would praise it.

 

At 70 million plus books sold, that book was faster selling than Harry Potter or its original source novel Twilight, so it raises an interesting question about popular taste rising above quality. That's the counterpoint to originality.

Edited September 4, 2013 by W_L

[thebrinkoftime]

 

If, when people say the word "shipping," your monocle pops out and you find yourself saying, "A ship is a vehicle used to cross bodies of water, and it is not, nor should it be a verb!" I recommend you give a look at the short 9-minute video above. It's by Jill Bearup who does a series called Stuff You Like, where she basically talks about (spoiler alert!) things she likes and what's it like to be a fan. She's funny, smart, respectful and extremely articulate. She brought up something here that I had never anticipated before. And don't worry, if the screencap makes it look like she will eat you, fold your remains and add you to her pink post-it note collection, it's just a bad screencap, it can't hurt you.

 

I can't accurately summarize what she goes into in the video, because I feel like it would just be reporting word-by-word what she already expresses so beautifully and concisely, and I am not a modern blog writer who fishes for hits. Before I saw this video I always thought shipping was a silly harmless hobby that people indulged in, but Bearup makes an excellent point for how it might go much deeper than that and ultimately might be an extremely healthy form of expression, especially for women and gays -- and she does so without ignoring the dark side of shipping.

 

Jill's great. I think I'm going to go write some Jill/Cia slash now!

Edited September 4, 2013 by thebrinkoftime

[clumber]

Hmm.  I don't see the creativity here.  Taking something that's already there and molding it about is, in my mind, more like glorified editing.  But that doesn't mean it isn't good, and that people don't like it.   It just means that I don't think it's creative.

 

 

But you aren't actually presenting an argument here. In your opinion, fanfic isn't creative....because.... just because? That's it?

 

There have been a lot of reasons in favour of the creativity of fanfic thrown at you, but you haven't responded to any of them. You just keep stating your opinion that it's uncreative. You don't actually present anything to back it up.

[Cia]

Lmao, Brink! Sorry, m'dear, while I do swing the girly side too in preferences you could not possible ship me with her. She is simply so far outside of the character type for my canon relationships that a Cia/Jill fandom would be hunted down in whole new shipping wars, to be decimated with extreme prejudice. Now... A Jessica Biel/Cia femslash might get you an endorsement, lol!

 

I did like her statement about not judging pairings and such. I guess I go along with that notion simply by avoiding 99% of the fanfic out there. Live and let live; those who like it great, those who don't happily remain in their own sphere of reading material. Never the twain must meet ... except for in topics like these where I think we can all do with remembering everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and nobody has to change theirs to agree if they don't want to. 

[thebrinkoftime]

Jessica Biel? I'm...speechless.

 

Yeah, if you asked me where I stand in the fan fiction gauntlet, I wouldn't describe myself as an enthusiastic reader or writer of it, and especially not shipping fan fiction. I share the same live and let live approach. I occassionally run into fan fiction and consume it, and sometimes I find some amazing stuff (Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead is unbelievably sly and creative), but I wouldn't say I actively search it out. Of course, the fan fiction I am exposed to is largely in the form of comics, music and video games, so it takes a very different form than pure written fiction. I know that at least in the games and comic market in my country creating fan works can help you step up to creating your own original work as a pro. But to me, it's all the same.

 

Many people have expressed their well-thought-out feelings on the difficulty of creating good fan fiction vs. creating good original fiction in this thread and I appreciate the time they took to write it. That said, as much as I sympathize with each opinion, difficulty is not a Platonic ideal, or a mathematical concept that is the same for everyone. Difficulty is entirely subjective. One person might find it is indeed easier to do some things when writing than another writer does. Someone might write forge a more original prose style, while another writer will thrive on creating varied characters. That's why, for me, for the writer who is serious about devoting their life to the craft, fan fiction should be a fun exercise and is a great starting place, but would be disappointing to be the final destination.

 

If you will excuse some long-winded provocation, then let me tell you why.

 

One thing I find to be true is that things that are difficult to write tend to turn out better. And that's where the line between fan fiction and well, fiction, blurs. No matter how I ultimately very much agree that it can be extremely tricky to write something that approaches the sublime when you've willingly locked yourself into the bookshelf of someone else's fiction, it's also true that no matter how many mental gymnastics you wrestle with while doing this, there is a comfort to writing about what you already familiar with and (presumably) love. Whereas in pure fiction, this comfort is a strange mistress who will abandon you when you least expect it.

 

A lot of writers have said that the characters they create grew to a life of their own and it's an idea I can get behind. A simple character that sprang from nowhere else but from my mind will suddenly seem to have agency while I am writing -- their words will come to me. At least that's the way it feels sometimes. But -- and this is especially true if you tackle a longform piece of work -- just like real people, those characters are sometimes unpredictable. They do things you never anticipated. They run into walls when you tell them to walk down the corridor. They scream when you ask them to whisper. Suddenly they aren't yours anymore, they're like somebody you've met and can rely upon, but cannot entirely control because they have an ego of their own.

 

This doesn't make any sense, because, well, you created them. They should do what you tell them to do. No truly good writer ever accepts this excuse though. They know that they aren't being true to their characters if they don't submit to the truth the characters want them to. It can be very difficult to find that truth and convey it in such a manner that other people will be able to see it as well. There is so much falsity in writing. It can be a real pain to clean up your act and make sure it doesn't seep into your own.

 

I only ever dabbled in fan fiction when I was younger, so I can't claim to know too much of the creative process. I imagine there is something different when you are greeting characters who have already been born through this process and survived the test -- the reason you want to write about them is because you accepted that the writer, to at least some extent, reached the truth of the character. By the very nature of the act, this cannot be the same as creating your own character, in the same way as getting married to somebody or becoming their friend cannot be the same relationship as literally participating in their birth.

 

When you have no boundaries, no safeguards and no limits, it can be hard to find which way is up, which is why I think a lot of people associate fan fiction with amateur writing. If you do go through the process of creating something entirely from the ether of your own mind, no matter which unconscious associations or 1000-year old story concepts your brain pulled out to help make it up, it's still something entirely unique to your brain. Nobody else has approved of it yet until you get the courage and conviction to write it on the page. Like I said, I'm sympathetic to fan fiction writers and have been impressed by their ingenuity in many of the same ways I would be of pure fiction, and if somebody's career in writing is on the level of writing fan fiction their entire life, I have no problem with that at all. But I don't find it at all strange or arrogant that the world at large would rather reward people who go through the infinite trouble of dreaming upward and outward out of no will but a desire to create everything on their own and live by the good and bad, the lies and the truth that dredges up. It's a responsibility that no matter how creative you are, no matter how skilled and wonderful your prose prowess might be, for many people, separates the pros from the amateurs.

 

It's much the same, though not entirely, as painters who can replicate great paintings -- they provide a valuable service and there is no cause or reason to discourage or look down on their work as lesser. It just serves a different purpose. However, nearly everyone can see that there is a natural curiosity to see what the painter does when they aren't replicating.

 

When there's so much dreck out there, I don't ever want to claim that no fan fiction could ever be better than all that gunk, because it seems short-sighted to me. Nonetheless, in even the worst and most awful pure fiction, which makes me want to pull my hair out on nearly every sentence, I have to respect the journey the person had to make to do it all by themselves, the courage to see it through and the hard work to make it readable for the general public. I give the same kudos to a fan fiction writer who does it, but naturally, all other things being the same, I will have more innate respect for the person who had to do it all from scratch.

[PTWalden]

I am a bit sad for everyone who hasn't had the pleasure of reading a good fanfiction.  Please don't judge the entire genre on the merits of that Fifty Shades travesty.  Yes, I said travesty.

 

As to the creativity debate, it is rather difficult to stay within canon with someone else's characters and not fall into common traps of fanfiction, being attacked by the rabid fans, or entering the realm of completely unbelievable.  Jeez, it's hard to write your own characters without falling into the common traps of fanfiction.  I can't find it right at the moment but there was a lively literary debate over Mary-Sue, Gary-Stu and self-insertion in original literature with both HP and Twilight characters mentioned.  It does require some creativity to envision a new story line with the established characters.  

 

Now, to freak everyone out, if you didn't already know this:  Amazon is attempting to sell fanfiction.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001197421

 

How does everyone feel about that?

[Thorn Wilde]

Now, to freak everyone out, if you didn't already know this:  Amazon is attempting to sell fanfiction.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001197421

 

How does everyone feel about that?

 

That... is actually kind of cool. The way I understand it, we're talking shared royalties between the writers of the fanfic and the creators of the original content, and the original creators can choose to opt in or not. A way for everyone to make a little cash. That's a really interesting business idea. I kind of like it.

 

Now, as for the discussion that's been going (wow, these are a lot of posts in the few short hours since I went to bed), I write fan fiction purely for fun and as a bit of an exercise. Sometimes, I write shipping fan fiction just for the pr0nz. I will happily admit that. My goal and my wish has always been to get my original stories published and, more importantly, read by an audience. That's what I write for. That's what I'm here.

 

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion on the subject, however I don't think we can be blamed for being a little bit offended when someone tries to tell us that no part of writing fan fiction requires creativity. Especially when we know that to be so very much not the case. I spent several years writing almost exclusively fan fiction, and that is something that helped my creativity immensely, helped me hone my craft, made me a better writer in every way. Nobody has to like the genre(s), but making the blanket statement that writing fanfic requires no creativity at all is perhaps a bit provocative. 

[Mark Arbour]

But you aren't actually presenting an argument here. In your opinion, fanfic isn't creative....because.... just because? That's it?

 

There have been a lot of reasons in favour of the creativity of fanfic thrown at you, but you haven't responded to any of them. You just keep stating your opinion that it's uncreative. You don't actually present anything to back it up.

 

I thought I was clear, but I'll try to simplify things for you. 

 

1.  I think that fan fic takes many forms, and they range in difficulty and creativity levels.

2.  Those fan fic stories that take existing characters and merely put them through different scenarios are not, in my opinion, very creative.  There is no factual evidence to prove that this is true or not, because it is an opinion.  If you take a world that is already created, and you utilize the same characters that have already been developed, I find it hard to visualize how subsequently creative you can be with plotlines, since the environment and the characters will drive so much of that.   Maybe that's because I haven't read much of it, or I haven't considered all the things that Thorne pointed out to me.  Food for thought.

 

Just because I don't think fan fic as referred to in (2) above isn't very creative doesn't mean it's not useful.  It can probably be a fertile training ground for a writer who wants to focus on plot development without having to create worlds or characters.  

[clumber]

I thought I was clear, but I'll try to simplify things for you. 

 

1.  I think that fan fic takes many forms, and they range in difficulty and creativity levels.

2.  Those fan fic stories that take existing characters and merely put them through different scenarios are not, in my opinion, very creative.  There is no factual evidence to prove that this is true or not, because it is an opinion.  If you take a world that is already created, and you utilize the same characters that have already been developed, I find it hard to visualize how subsequently creative you can be with plotlines, since the environment and the characters will drive so much of that.   Maybe that's because I haven't read much of it, or I haven't considered all the things that Thorne pointed out to me.  Food for thought.

 

Just because I don't think fan fic as referred to in (2) above isn't very creative doesn't mean it's not useful.  It can probably be a fertile training ground for a writer who wants to focus on plot development without having to create worlds or characters.  

 

 

But that would be like me saying that your Modern Real-world fiction is inherently less creative than, say, Sasha's fantasy because you are using a pre-existing world and as such are just not creating in the same way. And while maybe setting stories in the modern world is a way to learn, true writers create a fantastical setting.

 

Which would be utter bollocks. 

 

Let's get something straight... creating worlds is not difficult. Creating characters is not difficult. Lets give it a go, shall we?

 

 

There is a small island-kingdom. The population is tiny, the island is remote. While the world at large is fully aware of it, they pretty much ignore it and everything to do with it. The current king is old and bed-ridden. While he disagreed, his wife insisted that their eldest son be sent out into the wider world to travel and learn. Now, his wife long-dead and he himself feeling his life slip away, a message has been sent re-calling the Prince back to his home, to take on his responsibility as the soon-to-be-ruler.

 

The Prince has almost entirely forgotten about his home. He is young, excitable and often in trouble. He has spent most of his life travelling from town to city to royal court, meeting great rulers and, occasionally, causing scandals with their close family members. Now, a letter from a home he barely remembers has arrived, forcing him to return back to the drab island he hoped to never see again.

 

Shenanigans ensue.

 

 

Or how about...say...a roaming city, mounted on a wild assortment of gigantic legs, slowly marching its way across a half-ruined landscape. The Upper-classes bicker and plot against eachother in the gleaming palaces of the high levels while, down in the machinery and engines, a mass of half-shacks and squalid shanty-houses nestle between the churning cogs. The individual neighbourhoods form tight-knit clans who often wage war on eachother for the right to control certain elements of machinery and earn the attached wages from those above. The Upper-classes don't care who they pay, only that the work gets done. Still, crime is at least relatively rare, if only because the Neighbourhood clans strongly enforce their own individual forms of mob justice.

 

One woman has been working for many years as an enforcer for various Clans. Her talents are always in demand, and it is understood that people like her are loyal only to money. However, her most recent job is something different. An assassination contract on an Upper-class visitor. The money is good, but this will spell trouble for everyone, and the repercussions go beyond what anybody could imagine.

 

 

There. That's two.

Maybe...what? Ten minutes? Tops? Setting, character, plot. It's really, really easy to churn out stuff like this. The actual creative skill is in writing them, and just because a story is fanfic does not make that skill easier.

Edited September 4, 2013 by clumber

[Mark Arbour]

But that would be like me saying that your Modern Real-world fiction is inherently less creative than, say, Sasha's fantasy because you are using a pre-existing world and as such are just not creating in the same way. And while maybe setting stories in the modern world is a way to learn, true writers create a fantastical setting.

 

Which would be utter bollocks. 

 

Let's get something straight... creating worlds is not difficult. Creating characters is not difficult. Lets give it a go, shall we?

 

 

There is a small island-kingdom. The population is tiny, the island is remote. While the world at large is fully aware of it, they pretty much ignore it and everything to do with it. The current king is old and bed-ridden. While he disagreed, his wife insisted that their eldest son be sent out into the wider world to travel and learn. Now, his wife long-dead and he himself feeling his life slip away, a message has been sent re-calling the Prince back to his home, to take on his responsibility as the soon-to-be-ruler.

 

The Prince has almost entirely forgotten about his home. He is young, excitable and often in trouble. He has spent most of his life travelling from town to city to royal court, meeting great rulers and, occasionally, causing scandals with their close family members. Now, a letter from a home he barely remembers has arrived, forcing him to return back to the drab island he hoped to never see again.

 

Shenanigans ensue.

 

 

Or how about...say...a roaming city, mounted on a wild assortment of gigantic legs, slowly marching its way across a half-ruined landscape. The Upper-classes bicker and plot against eachother in the gleaming palaces of the high levels while, down in the machinery and engines, a mass of half-shacks and squalid shanty-houses nestle between the churning cogs. The individual neighbourhoods form tight-knit clans who often wage war on eachother for the right to control certain elements of machinery and earn the attached wages from those above. The Upper-classes don't care who they pay, only that the work gets done. Still, crime is at least relatively rare, if only because the Neighbourhood clans strongly enforce their own individual forms of mob justice.

 

One woman has been working for many years as an enforcer for various Clans. Her talents are always in demand, and it is understood that people like her are loyal only to money. However, her most recent job is something different. An assassination contract on an Upper-class visitor. The money is good, but this will spell trouble for everyone, and the repercussions go beyond what anybody could imagine.

 

 

There. That's two.

Maybe...what? Ten minutes? Tops? Setting, character, plot. It's really, really easy to churn out stuff like this. The actual creative skill is in writing them, and just because a story is fanfic does not make that skill easier.

 

Actually, what you generated really is nothing more than a hollow outline, but I get your point.  Here's where I see it differently.  To make either one of those stories viable, an author would have to do what you said, and write them, and yes, that would take some creativity. 

But if you're dealing with fanfic, and again, at it's more pedestrian forms, much of that flushing out has already been done for you.  The characters have already been developed: their desires, their flaws, their strengths, their weaknesses...all of that is already done.  The setting has already been laid out: the mystical land has trees or is arid, there are castles and ships, or warthogs and muffins.  Maybe there are wizards who can zap your dick off, and urchins that wallow on the ground and gnaw at your toes.  Whatever.  It's done.  The only thing you really have control over is the plot, and even that is going to have limitations. 

 

I think that writing fanfic may actually be harder because of those limitations, because if you're going to do a good job and not get lynched by fans, you have to make sure you work within the parameters of the world that exists, and with the characters that live there.  I just don't think it's as creative. 

[W_L]

But that would be like me saying that your Modern Real-world fiction is inherently less creative than, say, Sasha's fantasy because you are using a pre-existing world and as such are just not creating in the same way. And while maybe setting stories in the modern world is a way to learn, true writers create a fantastical setting.

 

Which would be utter bollocks. 

 

Let's get something straight... creating worlds is not difficult. Creating characters is not difficult. Lets give it a go, shall we?

 

 

There is a small island-kingdom. The population is tiny, the island is remote. While the world at large is fully aware of it, they pretty much ignore it and everything to do with it. The current king is old and bed-ridden. While he disagreed, his wife insisted that their eldest son be sent out into the wider world to travel and learn. Now, his wife long-dead and he himself feeling his life slip away, a message has been sent re-calling the Prince back to his home, to take on his responsibility as the soon-to-be-ruler.

 

The Prince has almost entirely forgotten about his home. He is young, excitable and often in trouble. He has spent most of his life travelling from town to city to royal court, meeting great rulers and, occasionally, causing scandals with their close family members. Now, a letter from a home he barely remembers has arrived, forcing him to return back to the drab island he hoped to never see again.

 

Shenanigans ensue.

 

 

Or how about...say...a roaming city, mounted on a wild assortment of gigantic legs, slowly marching its way across a half-ruined landscape. The Upper-classes bicker and plot against eachother in the gleaming palaces of the high levels while, down in the machinery and engines, a mass of half-shacks and squalid shanty-houses nestle between the churning cogs. The individual neighbourhoods form tight-knit clans who often wage war on eachother for the right to control certain elements of machinery and earn the attached wages from those above. The Upper-classes don't care who they pay, only that the work gets done. Still, crime is at least relatively rare, if only because the Neighbourhood clans strongly enforce their own individual forms of mob justice.

 

One woman has been working for many years as an enforcer for various Clans. Her talents are always in demand, and it is understood that people like her are loyal only to money. However, her most recent job is something different. An assassination contract on an Upper-class visitor. The money is good, but this will spell trouble for everyone, and the repercussions go beyond what anybody could imagine.

 

 

There. That's two.

Maybe...what? Ten minutes? Tops? Setting, character, plot. It's really, really easy to churn out stuff like this. The actual creative skill is in writing them, and just because a story is fanfic does not make that skill easier.

 

 

Continue that story about "the roaming city", haven't ever read a story where the city moves around paralleling the shifts in power between upper and lower class within. (I know you meant roaring just want to point out how it could be new I took the spelling error and redid the entire story with complex thematic elements )

 

I think Mark meant more literal "use of existing material", like if your main characters in a story about a wealthy oil family in Texas was named JR and Bobby Ewing Then, you slash their kids in a semi-incestuous relationship, since they are actually half brothers due to a past affair between their common father.....You get what I mean without revealing how much of a Soap junkie I am. True, you are being creative, but stories that just borrow plot elements from existing work lacks the writers own inception, so Mark is against that part of it. 

 

Mark is just expressing his opinion, he doesn't like fan fictions that do that.

 

If I wanted to write a HP fan fic, i'd go in an alternate universe, where Neville is the hero of the story and make Harry a great supporting character. I would change the dynamics of all the characters, reverse and warp the concept of good and evil with Dumbledore being a seemingly benign dictator seeking to dominate the magical world with his Army of disciples and Voldemort, his ex pupil and ex-lover (yes, I'd go there ) building a force against him from the outsiders of magical society. Theme wise, I'd stress more on the areas untouched by Rowling: the notion of social alienation, how power can easily be abused, and the complexities between true heroism and villains.

 

Luckily for everyone, I don't write fan fics

[clumber]

Actually, what you generated really is nothing more than a hollow outline, but I get your point.  Here's where I see it differently.  To make either one of those stories viable, an author would have to do what you said, and write them, and yes, that would take some creativity. 

But if you're dealing with fanfic, and again, at it's more pedestrian forms, much of that flushing out has already been done for you.  The characters have already been developed: their desires, their flaws, their strengths, their weaknesses...all of that is already done.  The setting has already been laid out: the mystical land has trees or is arid, there are castles and ships, or warthogs and muffins.  Maybe there are wizards who can zap your dick off, and urchins that wallow on the ground and gnaw at your toes.  Whatever.  It's done.  The only thing you really have control over is the plot, and even that is going to have limitations. 

 

I think that writing fanfic may actually be harder because of those limitations, because if you're going to do a good job and not get lynched by fans, you have to make sure you work within the parameters of the world that exists, and with the characters that live there.  I just don't think it's as creative. 

 

So you agree with me that, according to your own argument, real-world fiction is automatically less creative than fantasy fiction?

Or is that calling your fiction uncreative, which makes it different?

 

 

Continue that story about "the roaming city", haven't ever read a story where the city moves around paralleling the shifts in power between upper and lower class within. (I know you meant roaring just want to point out how it could be new I took the spelling error and redid the entire story with complex thematic elements )

 

No, I meant roaming. Hence the legs. It's what it roams on.

[Thorn Wilde]

[everything clumber wrote]

 

OMG, you have to write those stories!!! Especially the second one, I want to know what happens!

 

 

If I wanted to write a HP fan fic, i'd go in an alternate universe, where Neville is the hero of the story and make Harry a great supporting character.

 

This has been done, several times, and at least two of them were awesome and highly praised by the fandom.

[Mark Arbour]

I think Mark meant more literal "use of existing material", like if your main characters in a story about a wealthy oil family in Texas was named JR and Bobby Ewing Then, you slash their kids in a semi-incestuous relationship, since they are actually half brothers due to a past affair between their common father.....You get what I mean without revealing how much of a Soap junkie I am. True, you are being creative, but stories that just borrow plot elements from existing work lacks the writers own inception, so Mark is against that part of it. 

 

Thank you.  That is why I clearly (so it seemed) tried to delineate the different types of fanfic.  What I was talking about, and emphasized that I was talking about, was the kind of fanfic that takes the characters and the settings that already exist and just maneuvers them around.  Maybe people who write that stuff are not only less creative, they're more sensitive. 

[Thorn Wilde]

Thank you.  That is why I clearly (so it seemed) tried to delineate the different types of fanfic.  What I was talking about, and emphasized that I was talking about, was the kind of fanfic that takes the characters and the settings that already exist and just maneuvers them around.  Maybe people who write that stuff are not only less creative, they're more sensitive. 

 

I'm not actually sure I've ever read a fanfic that did this, and if I have, I've forgotten about it. There always seems to be an original aspect to the story, be it a new character, a new setting, a new thing (I've been inventing new potions for my HP fic Severely Moonstruck, and the invention of new spells, potions and even magical creatures is common place in HP fanfic in general) or a completely new situation. If the story explores a minor character, there's a lot of room for making up new things, too. The word 'headcanon' is used about an idea about a character or a part of a story that doesn't contradict canon, but is not ever mentioned in canon either, and these ideas are frequently included in fanfic. There is almost always something, even in straight-up shipping fic. We don't know everything about most characters' backstories, so we're quite free to invent new stuff, perhaps especially where the fanfic is based on visual media rather than literary, because we know no more about the characters than we're shown on screen, and backstory is limited to things specifically relevant to the plot.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm not actually sure I've ever read a fanfic that did this, and if I have, I've forgotten about it. There always seems to be an original aspect to the story, be it a new character, a new setting, a new thing (I've been inventing new potions for my HP fic Severely Moonstruck, and the invention of new spells, potions and even magical creatures is common place in HP fanfic in general) or a completely new situation. If the story explores a minor character, there's a lot of room for making up new things, too. The word 'headcanon' is used about an idea about a character or a part of a story that doesn't contradict canon, but is not ever mentioned in canon either, and these ideas are frequently included in fanfic. There is almost always something, even in straight-up shipping fic. We don't know everything about most characters' backstories, so we're quite free to invent new stuff, perhaps especially where the fanfic is based on visual media rather than literary, because we know no more about the characters than we're shown on screen, and backstory is limited to things specifically relevant to the plot.

 

I was driving home tonight, thinking about this discussion, and I had a bit of an epiphany.  It occurs to me that we all write fanfic to a degree.  Even a story set today, in our environment, is saddled with a pre-made world.  Now, they won't necessarily have pre-made characters, but as you pointed out, you don't necessarily have that in fan fic either.  When I write historical fiction, that's an even closer analogy, because the world has already happened, and events have been defined.  I have to work within that world, and I have key characters that will ultimately come into play, and that I'll have to weave into a story.

 

The bottom line (in my epiphany) is that it really doesn't matter what it is, good writing is good writing. 

[JamesSavik]

Harry Potter and the Valley of Snipers

 

Ron's head exploded, Hermione screamed and Harry crapped his pants...

 

[Thorn Wilde]

I was driving home tonight, thinking about this discussion, and I had a bit of an epiphany.  It occurs to me that we all write fanfic to a degree.  Even a story set today, in our environment, is saddled with a pre-made world.  Now, they won't necessarily have pre-made characters, but as you pointed out, you don't necessarily have that in fan fic either.  When I write historical fiction, that's an even closer analogy, because the world has already happened, and events have been defined.  I have to work within that world, and I have key characters that will ultimately come into play, and that I'll have to weave into a story.

 

The bottom line (in my epiphany) is that it really doesn't matter what it is, good writing is good writing. 

 

 

That's very nicely put.

 

 

 

I thought of something. I was told the other day that when we dream, we don't actually make anything up, we just remember information that's been subconsciously stored. As such, every person you meet in a dream is actually a person you've seen in real life, even if you can't remember having done so. This would be why people sometimes have the distinct impression that they've met someone before when they know they haven't, or think they've dreamed of someone before they even met them.

 

I wonder if it's the same when you invent a character? Specifically, when you decide what said character looks like. At the very least it's likely to be an amalgamation of people you've seen but don't specifically remember.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Thorn Wilde

[Mark Arbour]

That's very nicely put.

 

 

 

I thought of something. I was told the other day that when we dream, we don't actually make anything up, we just remember information that's been subconsciously stored. As such, every person you meet in a dream is actually a person you've seen in real life, even if you can't remember having done so. This would be why people sometimes have the distinct impression that they've met someone before when they know they haven't, or think they've dreamed of someone before they even met them.

 

I wonder if it's the same when you invent a character? Specifically, when you decide what said character looks like. At the very least it's likely to be an amalgamation of people you've seen but don't specifically remember.

 

Alright, I'll risk going off topic for this one. 

 

What do you do? 

 

I find that for my major characters, they tend to be an amalgamation.  For my second tier characters (or minor characters), they often derive from someone I've encountered in life.  I was on a cruise, and the bartender was this amazingly handsome, masculine dude, with a distinct bump in his nose, that reminded me of that trait I've seen so often on Dutchmen.  He became my vision for John Travers, in the Bridgemont Series. 

[Krista]

I was driving home tonight, thinking about this discussion, and I had a bit of an epiphany.  It occurs to me that we all write fanfic to a degree.  Even a story set today, in our environment, is saddled with a pre-made world.  Now, they won't necessarily have pre-made characters, but as you pointed out, you don't necessarily have that in fan fic either.  When I write historical fiction, that's an even closer analogy, because the world has already happened, and events have been defined.  I have to work within that world, and I have key characters that will ultimately come into play, and that I'll have to weave into a story.

 

The bottom line (in my epiphany) is that it really doesn't matter what it is, good writing is good writing. 

 

Very nice comment.

 

I could care less if people like or not like fanfiction for what ever reason, but to have the tone/attitude that it's not "real" writing, is what put me off in this entire discussion. No one should be the voice that decides what is real creativity and what isn't.  To do so for me just screamed complete arrogance and disregard for another person's craft or skill in what ever genre they pursued.

 

So I'll never say: Your example of (character, plot, story line), have been done thousands of times, therefore, I cannot respect your creativity for that reason alone, and you are not showing me any real writing skill. -- Fanfiction writers probably hear that a lot.

 

We all like to think we're original and creative, but we're definitely not. It is the ability to write or tell a good story that sets us and our stories apart.

 

Right now I am 3 chapters into a work based on a (I'll try not to blush here), a video game (yes, I play a few video games) series called Dragon Age: Origins, an obvious fanfiction, but one of the main characters of the Game series is so outlandish and funny and odd, that I am so intimidated by him when I write parts including him.  If I were to show it to people, I would be scared to death that they will tell me that, you killed so and so character for me, that I cannot read your story. Only because I would be ashamed with my own writing skill that I missed him and couldn't capture his characterization on any suitable level.

 

Would I be able to write a character like him in original fiction? YES I believe I could, it would be easier, there would be no expectations, no rules to abide by, and I could captivate writers with a character like him more easily if I didn't have him in his original setting. I would go as far as to respect fanfictions (that didn't copy his dialog that is used in-game) that were able to write him, more so, than reading a character like him in original fiction. And I definitely wouldn't like it if someone told me to DO THAT INSTEAD, because that's not of interest to me at all, and that's not the point. That character is only "him" in Dragon Age Origins on some sort of level and I want to write about him. 

 

There are many types of Fanfictions, but there is one type that I myself cannot respect and that is the type I think MOST people who dislike fanfictions use to vilify the entire genre. That type is, using the world, characters, setting, and plot, to tell the exact story-line, using sequences of dialog, scenes of action, and other aspects of the story that the original author has supplied in the original, to flesh out their story and call it THEIRS. Is it their work and not the original author's work, yes, but to copy/paste sections of it, is where people get into trouble. It shouldn't feel like reading the original or replaying the original too much at all. 

 

To me, that version is borderline plagiarism and I would agree with those people that say that it's not really an example of true creativity.

 

Real Fanfiction and what is good about it, is taking something that is liked, disliked, not really explained, hinted at, etc and expanding on that with their own original perception, their own way, and not the way of the original author/maker.

 

I personally think a story that has a secret love/lust/Voldemort just wanting to pass on some of his evil brilliance/power - child between Voldemort and a Death Eater or even a child of a dark wizard that's not Draco Malfoy as a main character, would make for a fascinating character to work with within the plot of the Harry Potter Series. One that doesn't want to be dark and uses Hogwarts as a way to distance herself or himself from that sort of life, that sort of choice would be extremely dangerous. 

 

And, a romance developing between a "Career" tribute and a "Non-Career" tribute based in Hunger Games Trilogy Book 1, would be interesting. There wasn't a lot of true romance in that entire series, so a story with those characters developing an intense and romantic bond would have been a nice change of pace. (For romance people anyway)

 

If either are pulled off successfully, why can't that be looked at as original creativity? And successfully written fanfictions DO and SHOULD stand alone and be easily explained/followed. There shouldn't be just a jumble of things that only fans of the original would understand.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Krista

[Thorn Wilde]

Alright, I'll risk going off topic for this one. 

 

What do you do? 

 

I find that for my major characters, they tend to be an amalgamation.  For my second tier characters (or minor characters), they often derive from someone I've encountered in life.  I was on a cruise, and the bartender was this amazingly handsome, masculine dude, with a distinct bump in his nose, that reminded me of that trait I've seen so often on Dutchmen.  He became my vision for John Travers, in the Bridgemont Series. 

 

It's my topic, surely we're allowed?

 

Very occasionally, I very consciously base the appearance of a character on someone I've seen. For instance, I got the idea for Meetings on a Bus when I was sitting opposite some kid with a dog on the bus home, and that kid directly became Andrew, hair and clothing style and all. But it very much depends from character to character. Some pop into my head with a physical appearance already attached, and I have no idea whether they're based on anyone I've seen or whether I just made them up, though it seems more likely that they are at least partially based on someone else when they're that complete from the get go.

[PTWalden]

If I wanted to write a HP fan fic, i'd go in an alternate universe, where Neville is the hero of the story and make Harry a great supporting character. I would change the dynamics of all the characters, reverse and warp the concept of good and evil with Dumbledore being a seemingly benign dictator seeking to dominate the magical world with his Army of disciples and Voldemort, his ex pupil and ex-lover (yes, I'd go there ) building a force against him from the outsiders of magical society. Theme wise, I'd stress more on the areas untouched by Rowling: the notion of social alienation, how power can easily be abused, and the complexities between true heroism and villains.

 

 

Luckily for everyone, I don't write fan fics

 

 

I actually think that would make an excellent fanfiction!

[PTWalden]

 

There are many types of Fanfictions, but there is one type that I myself cannot respect and that is the type I think MOST people who dislike fanfictions use to vilify the entire genre. That type is, using the world, characters, setting, and plot, to tell the exact story-line, using sequences of dialog, scenes of action, and other aspects of the story that the original author has supplied in the original, to flesh out their story and call it THEIRS. Is it their work and not the original author's work, yes, but to copy/paste sections of it, is where people get into trouble. It shouldn't feel like reading the original or replaying the original too much at all. 

 

To me, that version is borderline plagiarism and I would agree with those people that say that it's not really an example of true creativity.

 

What you are describing are known as the Read The Book stories and Fanmakes wherein some genius transcribes scripts of stories.  Most sites have now seen the light and treat them as the plagiarism that they are.  

 

 

[W_L]

If I wanted to write a HP fan fic, i'd go in an alternate universe, where Neville is the hero of the story and make Harry a great supporting character. I would change the dynamics of all the characters, reverse and warp the concept of good and evil with Dumbledore being a seemingly benign dictator seeking to dominate the magical world with his Army of disciples and Voldemort, his ex pupil and ex-lover (yes, I'd go there ) building a force against him from the outsiders of magical society. Theme wise, I'd stress more on the areas untouched by Rowling: the notion of social alienation, how power can easily be abused, and the complexities between true heroism and villains.  Luckily for everyone, I don't write fan fics  

 

 I actually think that would make an excellent fanfiction!

I know you forgot the quote

 

My ideas are too out there to be accepted. I don't like traditional good vs. evil archetypes with good winning every time, so triumphant anti-villains are staples for me.

[PTWalden]

I know you forgot the quote

 

My ideas are too out there to be accepted. I don't like traditional good vs. evil archetypes with good winning every time, so triumphant anti-villains are staples for me.

LOL - dumb newb.  I don't think your ideas are "out there" at all.  In fact, they fall well within the realm of one fanfiction author I adore.