Flux

[John Prz]

I don't get this angst against Will and his swings from maturity to teenage's irractional thinking. It's normal for a teenager and sometimes irecognize  myself in him not many years ago.

I would be a lot more worried about the velocity between these swing, sometimes he looks like a bi-polar person. (mostly when Zack is involved but love can make this to people)

 

@B1ue
About pot I think too it's not good that he smoke, but Mark used it more like a ritual inside the family structure.
Plus we never heard of any of them having an addiction to it (at least to our knowledge) nor any of them got busted smoking (which could create some huge problem to WIll or the other if it happens)

About the alcohol... this is somewhere i can't talk in first person but as an observer because i can talk only for the many exchange students i met and also for being in the US for sometime. I think there's a huge cultural gap inbetween Italy and the US. (not only as consuming behaviours but also as products choice) and that cause me to see all the younger family member (excluding JJ) as guys with a little problem with alcohol.

Edited June 21, 2014 by John Prz

[Mark Arbour]

Obviously, these characters, to some degrees, reflect my own viewpoints.  I stated my own attitudes towards Marijuana in 9.11, Chapter 8, as seen through JP's introspection:

 

Marijuana relaxed and calmed me in a much less debilitating way than alcohol.  I’d done extensive research on its supposed detrimental effects, as befits an academic.  I’d found much that was conflicting, but after I’d evaluated all the evidence, I concluded that while pot may not be harmless, it was certainly less harmful than alcohol or tobacco.

 

 

As far as alcohol consumption, Americans have a strange attitude towards it.  We ban it (legally) for those who are under 21, yet it is all but a rite of passage for college students (aged 18 or so), who typically drink excessively (binge drinking).  My personal opinion is that this behavior is a result of prohibition (limiting alcohol to age 21 and above) and it results in aberrant behavior for those who drink when they are younger. 

 

As with so many things, if the consumption of marijuana and alcohol are done in moderation, they are usually not problematic.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[PrivateTim]

Thanks for proving many of my points...however inadvertantly. Jeannie was a terrible mother to Will..she had no clue what to do in Will's teen years...she wasn't there for him much of the time,,,she favored JJ...and her viewpoint was skewed partly due to mental issues...and as you said, Brad fell down in the parenting department in a big way...not to mention Robbie's inadequacies..he was often irrational in his anger at Will and wasn't there for him much of the time...they were all involved in their own drama...and you are blaming Will!!!!! As far as saying that you mean no disrespect...well that doesn't change the fact that it felt disrespectfu. Do you really think that I am some feeble minded old fart that can't remember his teens as well as you?? I would suggest that your more mature viewpoint doesn't provide you the qualities you think you have now...but I will put your ageism aside for now as I recognize that it comes from someone very full of themself (your first post to me said that I suffered from Stockholm Syndrome...so all else I will take with a grain of salt. I do in fact remember my teens in exquisite detail, and I as well have raised four wonderful children who were also teenagers at one time...and my home was an open house for their multitude of friends. AS far as Will falling into traps...yeah, he was way nore sexually active than I thought appropriate...he smokes pot no more than his dad or JP or the rest...these were his role models...and the sex with older guys falls more on the older guys as to legality...just look what was going on around him...he was acting out for sure, but he was also doing what he was witnessing..and once out ,you can't put the sex genie back in the bottle.Again, suspect parenting put him on this path. What I put forth was that he did not fall into a lot of the destructive traps in that he doesn't have a drinking problem,nor a drug problem,nor is he self destuctive...he is loving and caring and loyal and supportive and very family oriented...but you don't or won't get that Private Tim...At your young age of 37, can your mature viewpoint not let you get past the need to hate...or the need to be right? And, once again, I feel respect has to be earned...I don't buy in to what you think Will owed his parents till some arbitrary age...he is emancipated so lets stop living in the past and accept the situation for what it is now. There is a lot to be gained by just letting it go.

 

Will was rude and dismissive of Jeanine long before she became ill and long before she took up her interest in JJ's career. I'd even argue that it was Will's treatment of her that both drove her to JJ and contributed to her mental condition.

 

That Will "smokes pot no more than his dad" et al isn't a justification. He is a 15 year old. There are more dangers in marijuana for youth than there is for adults. A person wise beyond their years would make an individual decision, not be a "monkey see, monkey do" drone. You also ignore his drinking and going to 21+ clubs at 15. The sex with older guys shows how poor Will's judgment is for the danger he places them in for what is important to him (getting his rocks off).

 

How was Will supportive of Brad when he broke into Brad's bedroom? He, at 15, decided he knew better than his father, whom his father should sleep with. How supportive of Matt has he been dating back to when we first met Matt? How much did he treat Matt like family the entire time Matt dated Wade? How supportive of JJ was he when he was sleeping his way through the Norway competition?

 

The common thread has been that Will does what Will wants to make Will happy and anyone who gets in his way gets run over.

 

Calling concern over Will's behavior as hate for Will is a straw man.

 

The sect that thinks Will has this infallible moral compass and is wise beyond his years dismisses any evidence, especially textual examples, of his poor judgment and then wants to fall back on the "he is only 15" argument. Okay, fine, if he is only 15 then maybe he shouldn't dictate to his father whom he can sleep with; maybe he shouldn't decide how Zach's parents should interact with him and he shouldn't interfere in their relationships. What Zach is pursing could cause irreparable damage with his parents and force his brothers to choose sides in a family fight.

 

I had an actor friend in high school get emancipated about 6 months before his 18th birthday because he thought his mother's rules (10PM curfew during the week, 12AM on weekends and no overnight "guests") were unreasonable. She said if he pursued emancipation they were done. He did. They are. And everyone is miserable. It has been a festering sore for 20 years and blown apart the family (parents divorced, grandparents choosing sides, the whole 9 yards). Of course the capper is that the relationship he was in that seemed oh so important, important enough to seek emancipation didn't last three months beyond emancipation. Then of course, just like his mother predicted, he foolishly blew through the large amount of money he had made in his acting career in about 3 years when it should have been enough to see him through his whole life.

 

Point being, I've seen what can be the consequences of a teen thinking he knows best and making life choices that were not good because they were so shortsighted. I have now seen it professionally as well.

 

I've been pretty thorough in using textual references to support what I've had to say about Matt, Will, Zach and the rest, in as much as the text exists.

 

 

I don't get this angst against Will and his swings from maturity to teenage's irractional thinking. It's normal for a teenager and sometimes irecognize  myself in him not many years ago.

I would be a lot more worried about the velocity between these swing, sometimes he looks like a bi-polar person. (mostly when Zack is involved but love can make this to people)

 

It isn't angst. Will is defended in all his actions by people who believe him to be Will the Wise, who is smarter than the adults around him and knows better what should be done. It is okay to have the swing from maturity to irrationality because most 15 year olds have parents or guardians to moderate their behavior and keep their behaviors from being dangerous or destructive. The difference is that Will is emancipated, which is fine when it comes to Will making decisions about himself, but when he presumes to make decisions for Brad and Matt and even Tony, who should have died two books ago, he steps into areas he doesn't have the maturity to assess the situations and areas where it is really none of his business. He would have thrown one of his tantrums (as in the previous chapters) and maybe burned someone's car.

[PrivateTim]

 

As far as alcohol consumption, Americans have a strange attitude towards it.  We ban it (legally) for those who are under 21, yet it is all but a rite of passage for college students (aged 18 or so), who typically drink excessively (binge drinking).  My personal opinion is that this behavior is a result of prohibition (limiting alcohol to age 21 and above) and it results in aberrant behavior for those who drink when they are younger. 

 

As with so many things, if the consumption of marijuana and alcohol are done in moderation, they are usually not problematic.

 

Yes, but there is the philosophical belief, which I share with you since I am a little L libertarian and then the reality of breaking laws and getting caught doing so. That does cause problems.

[Headstall]

Ok Private Tim...I don't agree with anything you have said and I could counter every point and bring up some more enlightening ones...but I won't...and not because I don't enjoy a good discussion. I just feel that it would be a waste of time. Frankly, I do NOT like your tactics...I am no shrinking violet, but they and you offend me. I can respect anyone's opinion even if it is the polar opposite of mine...but I am having trouble respecting you. I don't appreciate insults,no matter how subtle or underhanded. Resorting to such speaks volumes to me...so don't waste your breath or time on my postings because I am not interested in this type of discourse.What should be stimulating is only aggravating. I will not call you a bully...but you put me in mind of one...over and out

[Timothy M.]

As with so many things, if the consumption of marijuana and alcohol are done in moderation, they are usually not problematic.

 

Except I seem to recall that research has shown you stop aging mentally and emotionally if you smoke pot frequently. Thus while it may be no more harmful to adults than alcohol, for teens it can have devastating results. A thirteen year old guy smoking pot regularly may grow older in body but his mind will be forever at the maturity of early adolescens.

 

And no matter how much your readers disagree about Will, I'm sure we all shudder at the thought of his mind never maturing beyond his present state emotionally and otherwise.

 

Edited to add:

 

There are more dangers in marijuana for youth than there is for adults.

 

This caught my eye after I posted.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Timothy M.

[Kitt]

Dang! Maybe I should have started smoking when I was PvtTim's age!

[TetRefine]

Except I seem to recall that research has shown you stop aging mentally and emotionally if you smoke pot frequently. Thus while it may be no more harmful to adults than alcohol, for teens it can have devastating results. A thirteen year old guy smoking pot regularly may grow older in body but his mind will be forever at the maturity of early adolescens.

 

And no matter how much your readers disagree about Will, I'm sure we all shudder at the thought of his mind never maturing beyond his present state emotionally and otherwise.

 

What? If that was true, half of my high school class would still be at the maturity level of 15-16 year olds. Our valedictorian, who went to Princeton and just took a job with Apple, used to toke up quite frequently back in high school. Hell, the majority of the kids I took AP classes with were the biggest smokers and drinkers in the school. I've seen enough anecdotal evidence to know your claim is totally false.

 

Don't buy into the government and religious propaganda against marijuana. I personally think smoking it is stupid and a waste of money, but that is no reason to legally ban it. Its a waste of police resources anyway.

 

*cries silently for the soapbox* 

[Timothy M.]

What? If that was true, half of my high school class would still be at the maturity level of 15-16 year olds.

 

and how do you know they aren't ?

 

Seems to me a lot of the things wrong with the world today can be attributed to a bunch of old men being ruled by things other than their minds. and US politics and media comes across like the descriptions of high school I constantly read on GA. Not that it's any better over here.

[PrivateTim]

What? If that was true, half of my high school class would still be at the maturity level of 15-16 year olds. Our valedictorian, who went to Princeton and just took a job with Apple, used to toke up quite frequently back in high school. Hell, the majority of the kids I took AP classes with were the biggest smokers and drinkers in the school. I've seen enough anecdotal evidence to know your claim is totally false.

 

Don't buy into the government and religious propaganda against marijuana. I personally think smoking it is stupid and a waste of money, but that is no reason to legally ban it. Its a waste of police resources anyway.

 

*cries silently for the soapbox* 

 

Except that anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal and not an objective study or studies.

 

And Matt, when you've lost NPR you know it is over

 

Marijuana May Hurt Developing Teen Brain

[PrivateTim]

Dang! Maybe I should have started smoking when I was PvtTim's age!

 

Or you could have gone to Berkeley, never taken a puff ever and still get high every weekend just hanging out in the dorm

[Henson]

It took me a few weeks to get to this point...

 

You argue for the sake of argument, always pushing for 100% capitulation - even when your victim partially agrees with you. You write point by point refutations of others' posts, pointing out fallacies - and then immediately revert to your own favorites of reducing to the absurd, false choice, and argument from authority. I have the ability to look at that behavior and just laugh instead of personalizing it, but not everyone here has the same skin-thickening military background I do.

 

This isn't a legal brief, where you are duty bound to be a ferocious, unwavering advocate for a highly specific point of view, never giving an inch of ground. It is a discussion board, where a group has gathered to celebrate the stories - and characters - of a talented writer. Your aggression is unwarranted, and trying to say everyone is doing it is either self-delusion or disingenuous in the extreme. How many people have told you here that you're rude? Add one more.

 

It is possible, even desirable, to disagree pleasantly.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Henson

[Mark Arbour]

Except I seem to recall that research has shown you stop aging mentally and emotionally if you smoke pot frequently. Thus while it may be no more harmful to adults than alcohol, for teens it can have devastating results. A thirteen year old guy smoking pot regularly may grow older in body but his mind will be forever at the maturity of early adolescens.

 

And no matter how much your readers disagree about Will, I'm sure we all shudder at the thought of his mind never maturing beyond his present state emotionally and otherwise.

 

 

Except that's wrong.  There have been a number of studies on this, but let me point to two.  The first one, which said that IQ was reduced by teen smokers, was discredited.  Another more widely quoted study, linking casual use to brain changes, was even worse.

[Mark Arbour]

Will was rude and dismissive of Jeanine long before she became ill and long before she took up her interest in JJ's career. I'd even argue that it was Will's treatment of her that both drove her to JJ and contributed to her mental condition.

 

That Will "smokes pot no more than his dad" et al isn't a justification. He is a 15 year old. There are more dangers in marijuana for youth than there is for adults. A person wise beyond their years would make an individual decision, not be a "monkey see, monkey do" drone. You also ignore his drinking and going to 21+ clubs at 15. The sex with older guys shows how poor Will's judgment is for the danger he places them in for what is important to him (getting his rocks off).

 

How was Will supportive of Brad when he broke into Brad's bedroom? He, at 15, decided he knew better than his father, whom his father should sleep with. How supportive of Matt has he been dating back to when we first met Matt? How much did he treat Matt like family the entire time Matt dated Wade? How supportive of JJ was he when he was sleeping his way through the Norway competition?

 

The common thread has been that Will does what Will wants to make Will happy and anyone who gets in his way gets run over.

 

Calling concern over Will's behavior as hate for Will is a straw man.

 

The sect that thinks Will has this infallible moral compass and is wise beyond his years dismisses any evidence, especially textual examples, of his poor judgment and then wants to fall back on the "he is only 15" argument. Okay, fine, if he is only 15 then maybe he shouldn't dictate to his father whom he can sleep with; maybe he shouldn't decide how Zach's parents should interact with him and he shouldn't interfere in their relationships. What Zach is pursing could cause irreparable damage with his parents and force his brothers to choose sides in a family fight.

 

I had an actor friend in high school get emancipated about 6 months before his 18th birthday because he thought his mother's rules (10PM curfew during the week, 12AM on weekends and no overnight "guests") were unreasonable. She said if he pursued emancipation they were done. He did. They are. And everyone is miserable. It has been a festering sore for 20 years and blown apart the family (parents divorced, grandparents choosing sides, the whole 9 yards). Of course the capper is that the relationship he was in that seemed oh so important, important enough to seek emancipation didn't last three months beyond emancipation. Then of course, just like his mother predicted, he foolishly blew through the large amount of money he had made in his acting career in about 3 years when it should have been enough to see him through his whole life.

 

Point being, I've seen what can be the consequences of a teen thinking he knows best and making life choices that were not good because they were so shortsighted. I have now seen it professionally as well.

 

I've been pretty thorough in using textual references to support what I've had to say about Matt, Will, Zach and the rest, in as much as the text exists.

 

 

 

It isn't angst. Will is defended in all his actions by people who believe him to be Will the Wise, who is smarter than the adults around him and knows better what should be done. It is okay to have the swing from maturity to irrationality because most 15 year olds have parents or guardians to moderate their behavior and keep their behaviors from being dangerous or destructive. The difference is that Will is emancipated, which is fine when it comes to Will making decisions about himself, but when he presumes to make decisions for Brad and Matt and even Tony, who should have died two books ago, he steps into areas he doesn't have the maturity to assess the situations and areas where it is really none of his business. He would have thrown one of his tantrums (as in the previous chapters) and maybe burned someone's car.

 

 

Because rich kids are different, and the middle class values you attempt to push off on them won't stick. 

[B1ue]

What I find decidedly ironic amid this discussion of relative maturity is that, were any of us to come upon some teenagers Will's age arguing like we all are about characters on an internet serial, we would take this as evidence that they are completely immature and not ready to face real life.

 

Again, it should be noted that I took several classes in this kind of catfighting, so the irony is not new to me.

[TetRefine]

Except that's wrong.  There have been a number of studies on this, but let me point to two.  The first one, which said that IQ was reduced by teen smokers, was discredited.  Another more widely quoted study, linking casual use to brain changes, was even worse.

 

Damn you Mark, you beat me to it.

[Timothy M.]

Except that's wrong.  There have been a number of studies on this, but let me point to two.  The first one, which said that IQ was reduced by teen smokers, was discredited.  Another more widely quoted study, linking casual use to brain changes, was even worse.

 

Except I'm NOT talking about IQ at all. I'm talking about their emotional and social development and maturity, not their book learning intelligence.

 

Very bright kids can solve mathematical problems but they're still kids without the mental experience to handle the hard choices and adversity of life. And just like alcohol pot is often used to escape from difficult situations. 'It soothes you or loosens you up.' Well, this sort of praise should tell you all about the influence on your emotional capacities.

 

And I'm not saying I have a problem with the characters in CAP using pot. After all they do a lot of other stupid stuff too, which is usually what creates the drama.  

[Mark Arbour]

What I find decidedly ironic amid this discussion of relative maturity is that, were any of us to come upon some teenagers Will's age arguing like we all are about characters on an internet serial, we would take this as evidence that they are completely immature and not ready to face real life.

 

Again, it should be noted that I took several classes in this kind of catfighting, so the irony is not new to me.

They had classes in catfighting at UCSB?

[B1ue]

Sure. Oh, they called it "intellectual debate" but it was really cat fighting.

[Daddydavek]

I'm not sure this forum pretends to be an intellectual debate, but I'd sure concede social debate.......

[Kitt]

Sure. Oh, they called it "intellectual debate" but it was really cat fighting.

I realize it has been many many years since my one catfighting class back in the day, but wasn't one of the first things the prof's taught that you did not make the argument a personal attack, that you stuck to the merits of the subject matter?

[B1ue]

And for a demonstration of how difficult that ideal can be in practice, please scroll upwards.

[methodwriter85]

 

Because rich kids are different, and the middle class values you attempt to push off on them won't stick. 

 

    Yes. It's something that I came to accept right around Paternity, and I realized I couldn't push my version of morality, as a kid from the working class, on these people. (Although to be honest, the values I was taught was more on the "survivor side" of using people when you need them and ditching them when you don't than the middle class kind of value side. I just learned those by watching episodes of Full House and Growing Pains.) These are not normal kids, and we can't really apply the same rules here.

 

    A really good illustration of this I saw...there was a mild uproar of pic of a 13-year old Willow Smith hanging out with her 20-year old friend on a bed, with him being shirtless. There were pearls clutched, but Will and Jada really had no problem with it. Because again, the rich are different, and they have completely different mindsets. (Though to be honest, I didn't really see a problem with it. It's not like she was naked in bed with him.)

 

 

Plus we never heard of any of them having an addiction to it (at least to our knowledge) nor any of them got busted smoking (which could create some huge problem to WIll or the other if it happens)

 

    He's rich. He'd get off with a slap on the wrist. Even most middle-class white kids do. The only way someone would do serious time for it would be if they had a distribution network going, and even though, if you're rich and powerful enough, you can still get away with a slap on the wrist. See: Thomas Ravenel, the former South Carolina state treasurer who embezzled money to involve himself in cocaine ring and served maybe 8 months in a low-security prison where he, in his own words, picked up playing bocce ball.

 

    University of Delaware kids were big on smoking pot so I knew a good amount of kids who got busted. As long as you had the money for a decent lawyer, you were fine.

Edited June 23, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Daddydavek]

In her review of the current chapter Kitt expresses surprise that Will handled being banished from Claremont so well while Zach spends a week with his parents.  

I on the other hand thought it was entirely within character for Will, who has a deep love for his father, despite suing for emancipation.  Love and control are two entirely separate things as for as Will is concerned, at least in my humble opinion. 

[B1ue]

Well, if we're nitpicking, from Timothy's review

 

100% straight men are not so common. Jack (Claire's husband), Frank, Ace and Darius are the only examples from the main group of character that comes to mind.

Both Ace and Frank messed around with guys at some point in their lives, so even 100% heterosexuality doesn't completely exclude them.