COMPLETE v INCOMPLETE

[grahamsealby]

I may be way out on the left field on this one. I don't believe in posting chapters as my story unfolds. I always wait until my whole book is completed before I post any chapters. My reason is that too often I begin reading a good story and then it finishes in mid stream; you have to wait until the author gets around to completing the story. This can take an unknown amount of time, so I usually forget the story and move on to one that has been 'completed'.

It's hard to comment on a story that is incomplete.

[Graeme]

This is a discussion we have had before There are pros and cons to both positions. Personally, I take a compromise position of waiting until I'm confident I'll finish the story before posting, and then try to post the backlog of prepared chapters regularly while I work to finish the novel.

 

However, your comment about why you wait seems to be more from a reader's perspective. Since stories here have a status to indicate if the story is complete, a reader who prefers to wait until the full story is online can do so This caters for both those readers, and also readers who like (or at least tolerate) incomplete stories with periodic updates. 

[grahamsealby]

45 minutes ago, Graeme said:

This is a discussion we have had before There are pros and cons to both positions. Personally, I take a compromise position of waiting until I'm confident I'll finish the story before posting, and then try to post the backlog of prepared chapters regularly while I work to finish the novel.

 

However, your comment about why you wait seems to be more from a reader's perspective. Since stories here have a status to indicate if the story is complete, a reader who prefers to wait until the full story is online can do so This caters for both those readers, and also readers who like (or at least tolerate) incomplete stories with periodic updates. 

Yeah, I am looking from a reader's aspect. As an  author we try and please our readers, and I (personally) don't believe readers enjoy reading a part story. We all like a satisfying ending. I know that I can choose the option 'complete' but it seems a good story can be held up for a long time before it reaches the 'complete' stage. If all authors take your position of only posting when you know you'll complete quickly, then there isn't a problem. Thanks for getting back.

[Comicality]

 

I think when I was about 7 years old, I was sick and my uncle gave me a small stack of comic books to read while I was in bed. I was immediately hooked! I had to have more. Started getting an allowance and buying what I could every week. Comic books taught me how to write stories. Complexity of character, drama, humor, plot twists, dialogue...it was all there. So many of my stories have a comic book feel to them. That includes posting from chapter to chapter as it goes along, instead of making my readers wait for a whole year or two without hearing a peep from me. I actually really like interacting with my audience from chapter to chapter, hearing what they like or what they might have questions about. I enjoy the discussions and anticipate their reactions to the events of the next chapter. I mean, I get to have fun TOO! Hehehe!

 

There are folks who desperately want to read a 100,000 word story, then roll over and go to sleep without saying thanks or showing any interest at all. Or may sum their whole review up to, "That was great. Thanks." Which is appreciated, but...Jesus. That was 8 months of my life. Yikes.

 

I try to post more often, and I always get flak for taking so long. Sometimes, folks will follow me from story to story to story and make passively rude comments in an attempt to 'bully' me into writing faster...and it hurts...but I'm not going to rush through anything for their benefit. I'd much rather put out the best, most emotionally satisfying, most heartfelt, story that I can possibly create than hurry up and make a performing seal out of myself for the sake of wrapping up a potentially great story and getting it 'off the table'. Can't do it.

 

I truly exhaust myself pouring my emotions into every chapter, and the fans love it when they get a new chapter of one of their favorites. I've come way too far to cheat them now, you know? Even if folks wait until my stories are all completed before they read one word of them, I plan to make sure that it's a story that I'm proud of, and will hopefully stick with them long after I'm gone. That's my number one goal.  

[Comicality]

 

Hehehe, also...let me make a few shameless plugs while I' on the subject! Giggles!

 

I really CAN finish a story! I swear!  

 

Check out "Between The Lines", "Save Or Sacrifice", "Light Reaches Earth", or "Just What I Ordered"! Cool? You'll see!

[William King]

5 hours ago, grahamsealby said:

I (personally) don't believe readers enjoy reading a part story.

 

I have to disagree, as a reader I have read a couple of exceptional stories which are not finished. It is sad and somewhat frustrating, I agree. One book Spaceship Boys by Erik Ritler was particularly good and unfinished at a more or less appropriate point. I tried to find out what happened, but managed only a vague answer that indicated the author went on holiday and never came home, draw your own conclusions.

 

As a writer I like to have the fun of publishing episodes, with no predefined fixed frequency, but I warn the reader. I also like to complete a good part of a book before publishing online, but sometimes don't want to wait until it is entirely finished. So, for example with another book I wrote it in four parts, publishing part one whilst finishing off part two. There again the reader knows it's in parts.

 

 

[Myr]

20 hours ago, grahamsealby said:

I (personally) don't believe readers enjoy reading a part story.

Uh, no.  Most people here are motivated by "I'll take what I can get" as far as established authors go.  Sure, having the complete work is great... and we have dead tree publishing and eBooks for that.  Posting online like you do at this site?  a regular posting period is appreciated.  I have time to read a chapter or two... I can't read a mammoth story in one go usually.

 

Now writing the whole thing before you start posting?  Yeah, I can see that if you have enough confidence that what you are writing will hit your intended target.  That's my general plan for the future to avoid writing myself into any more corners. 

 

So that's really two questions... writing episodically or posting that way.

[grahamsealby]

32 minutes ago, Myr said:

Uh, no.  Most people here are motivated by "I'll take what I can get" as far as established authors go.  Sure, having the complete work is great... and we have dead tree publishing and eBooks for that.  Posting online like you do at this site?  a regular posting period is appreciated.  I have time to read a chapter or two... I can't read a mammoth story in one go usually.

 

Now writing the whole thing before you start posting?  Yeah, I can see that if you have enough confidence that what you are writing will hit your intended target.  That's my general plan for the future to avoid writing myself into any more corners. 

 

So that's really two questions... writing episodically or posting that way.

Thanx for your comments, it's really good to learn how other people regard the issue. I'm purely approaching the matter from a reader's point of view. When we go to a library or buy a book, we want to purchase then read the whole story, not  just parts and certainly not a story without an ending. Grant that GA  may have a higher purpose, but I still view the issue as a reader. 

As to Chapter posting I may have confused the issue. I would not in any way, post a whole story in one shot - I'm not sure I'm allowed to do that anyway . I always post at the optimum, two chapters at one time and do not change the status to 'Complete' until I've posted all chapters.

[grahamsealby]

15 hours ago, William King said:

 

I have to disagree, as a reader I have read a couple of exceptional stories which are not finished. It is sad and somewhat frustrating, I agree. One book Spaceship Boys by Erik Ritler was particularly good and unfinished at a more or less appropriate point. I tried to find out what happened, but managed only a vague answer that indicated the author went on holiday and never came home, draw your own conclusions.

 

As a writer I like to have the fun of publishing episodes, with no predefined fixed frequency, but I warn the reader. I also like to complete a good part of a book before publishing online, but sometimes don't want to wait until it is entirely finished. So, for example with another book I wrote it in four parts, publishing part one whilst finishing off part two. There again the reader knows it's in parts.

 

 

Thnx for your comment. When we go to a library, or buy a book, we aren't interested in a part story and certainly one without an ending. It is on this concept that I raised the issue in the first place. Now GA might have some more lofty purpose in mind but I for one - it's only my personal viewpoint - only want to read a story that is truly 'Completed'. I don't believe I can give a proper appraisal without reading the ending. I can recall good stories I've read and would have given a very positive tick if it had been completed. These days I only read stories that have the 'completed' icon attached. Once again, it's great to have an open discussion.

[Brayon]

I have one-shot, short stories which are complete, and 3 serial stories currently in process, here on GA. I work on all three stories, and a bunch of side projects all the time. It just depends on what is speaking to me at the time. I actually prefer writing in that style, as reactions to the stories let me, know if I should keep going, or say 'forget about it,' and eventually abandon the idea.

 

Why waste my time, on something, only I will like?

[Hudson Bartholomew]

I don't like posting until I've completed the whole story. Mainly because I may want to go back to the beginning and change something. But if I've already posted the chapter, I can't change stuff. But that does mean there may be lulls where I'm not posting anything while I write it. Solution? Post one completed story, one chapter a week, and at the same write the next story! It doesn't always work out perfectly, but it's worked for me so far. 

[grahamsealby]

On 11/10/2017 at 2:03 PM, Comicality said:

 

I think when I was about 7 years old, I was sick and my uncle gave me a small stack of comic books to read while I was in bed. I was immediately hooked! I had to have more. Started getting an allowance and buying what I could every week. Comic books taught me how to write stories. Complexity of character, drama, humor, plot twists, dialogue...it was all there. So many of my stories have a comic book feel to them. That includes posting from chapter to chapter as it goes along, instead of making my readers wait for a whole year or two without hearing a peep from me. I actually really like interacting with my audience from chapter to chapter, hearing what they like or what they might have questions about. I enjoy the discussions and anticipate their reactions to the events of the next chapter. I mean, I get to have fun TOO! Hehehe!

 

There are folks who desperately want to read a 100,000 word story, then roll over and go to sleep without saying thanks or showing any interest at all. Or may sum their whole review up to, "That was great. Thanks." Which is appreciated, but...Jesus. That was 8 months of my life. Yikes.

 

I try to post more often, and I always get flak for taking so long. Sometimes, folks will follow me from story to story to story and make passively rude comments in an attempt to 'bully' me into writing faster...and it hurts...but I'm not going to rush through anything for their benefit. I'd much rather put out the best, most emotionally satisfying, most heartfelt, story that I can possibly create than hurry up and make a performing seal out of myself for the sake of wrapping up a potentially great story and getting it 'off the table'. Can't do it.

 

I truly exhaust myself pouring my emotions into every chapter, and the fans love it when they get a new chapter of one of their favorites. I've come way too far to cheat them now, you know? Even if folks wait until my stories are all completed before they read one word of them, I plan to make sure that it's a story that I'm proud of, and will hopefully stick with them long after I'm gone. That's my number one goal.  

I was fascinated with your comic book analogy; I'd never have considered comic books as an aid to writing.Looking back, I do recall that some of the favourites such as Batman and Robin (were they gay?) always ran in segments and you had to wait until the next installment, which is similar to posting by chapter. I also share your comment about readers not appreciating the effort put into a long story. I recently wrote a story called  'Adlai' which took just under a year to finish - only because of the research required. No one cared about the big slice of time taken to write the damned thing.. I only raised the subject of 'Complete V Incomplete' because  I can't really give a review until a story is Complete. Also, as a reader I find it frustrating to have a good story reach an incomplete ending. Perhaps there should be an allowable period between beginning to post  and final completion, so  that authors are motivated to finish the tale. Do you think this is a good idea?

[MrM]

On October 10, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Comicality said:

 

I think when I was about 7 years old, I was sick and my uncle gave me a small stack of comic books to read while I was in bed. I was immediately hooked! I had to have more. Started getting an allowance and buying what I could every week. Comic books taught me how to write stories. Complexity of character, drama, humor, plot twists, dialogue...it was all there. So many of my stories have a comic book feel to them. That includes posting from chapter to chapter as it goes along, instead of making my readers wait for a whole year or two without hearing a peep from me. I actually really like interacting with my audience from chapter to chapter, hearing what they like or what they might have questions about. I enjoy the discussions and anticipate their reactions to the events of the next chapter. I mean, I get to have fun TOO! Hehehe!

 

There are folks who desperately want to read a 100,000 word story, then roll over and go to sleep without saying thanks or showing any interest at all. Or may sum their whole review up to, "That was great. Thanks." Which is appreciated, but...Jesus. That was 8 months of my life. Yikes.

 

I try to post more often, and I always get flak for taking so long. Sometimes, folks will follow me from story to story to story and make passively rude comments in an attempt to 'bully' me into writing faster...and it hurts...but I'm not going to rush through anything for their benefit. I'd much rather put out the best, most emotionally satisfying, most heartfelt, story that I can possibly create than hurry up and make a performing seal out of myself for the sake of wrapping up a potentially great story and getting it 'off the table'. Can't do it.

 

I truly exhaust myself pouring my emotions into every chapter, and the fans love it when they get a new chapter of one of their favorites. I've come way too far to cheat them now, you know? Even if folks wait until my stories are all completed before they read one word of them, I plan to make sure that it's a story that I'm proud of, and will hopefully stick with them long after I'm gone. That's my number one goal.  

 

OMG! I was a COMPLETE comic book geek! I actually tried my hand at drawing and writing my own for a while.

 

I think that's what got me into writing. I could write the manscript and then, maybe later, illustrate it! I never had time to do that, but the manuscripts remain. I found that I started writing more descriptively and more actionwise so that my stories could be 'storyboarded'. Maybe I'll try my hand at a screenplay sometime! My story Snowflake already feels somewhat 'cinematic'. I think its why I put 'soundtracks' to things. I'm a frustrated filmmaker!

 

Well . . . I do visit Hollywood often.

[William King]

8 hours ago, grahamsealby said:

Perhaps there should be an allowable period between beginning to post  and final completion, so  that authors are motivated to finish the tale. Do you think this is a good idea?

 

How long would that period be? Example: Stannie spent two years writing and publishing The Others, before it was complete - complete in the sense that the story had reached a suitable end and any follow up could be a sequel. Therein lies the problem, and in any event the people at GA are struggling to keep things going as they stand so new features are all pretty much non-starters, although I appreciate where you are coming from with the suggestion.

 

[Freerider]

I don't think a fixed period is the answer.

What I do is look at publishing dates of chapters (story history) in the case of an incomplete story. It gives me an indication of how regularly chapters will be posted and if the story will be finished. This 'rating' will heavily influence my decision to start reading it. 

If the story is a new one, I do a similar thing on other stories of an author. 

Basically I use a simple algorithm.

If anything, then I would like to see a rating indicator similar to this. The authors rating would decay over time, i.e. if you don't publish in incomplete stories, your score would go down... 

 

My 2 cents

 

 

 

 

[Brayon]

12 hours ago, grahamsealby said:

Perhaps there should be an allowable period between beginning to post  and final completion, so  that authors are motivated to finish the tale.

Absolutely would not be "motivation" and would be a site killer. It would be different, if this was a paying job, then deadlines could be enforced. But seeing as the majority of GA authors are "hobbyist" writers, with real lives outside of writing, then it would drive away authors. It would be like telling GRRM to finish, a Song of Fire and Ice.

4 hours ago, William King said:

 

How long would that period be? Example: Stannie spent two years writing and publishing The Others, before it was complete - complete in the sense that the story had reached a suitable end and any follow up could be a sequel. Therein lies the problem, and in any event the people at GA are struggling to keep things going as they stand so new features are all pretty much non-starters, although I appreciate where you are coming from with the suggestion.

 

How would that be considered a "feature"? If anything, that would be a deterrent to creativity, and drive away Authors. Also, that's a bitter outlook on the site, man. "Non-Starters"? Dude... I can't even... or odd.

[Cia]

15 hours ago, grahamsealby said:

I only raised the subject of 'Complete V Incomplete' because  I can't really give a review until a story is Complete. Also, as a reader I find it frustrating to have a good story reach an incomplete ending. Perhaps there should be an allowable period between beginning to post  and final completion, so  that authors are motivated to finish the tale. Do you think this is a good idea?

 

No. We're not in the habit of dictating how authors write or post because, as we've mentioned a fair few number of times, our goal is not to make GA more exclusive but to remain inclusive. We have provided the means for authors to decide how they want to post--serially with an in progress story as they write, serially with a completed story they've finished writing, or in one great big chunk with the story as a whole in a single online "chapter one". We've arranged for the story status to show what the posting status on the site is as well as story and chapter note areas so authors can communicate with readers. These allow readers who prefer one type of story over another to find them.

 

This allows for the flexibility such as some of my flash fiction group stories inform readers I post a 1k chapter each week based on prompts released each week so it's not 'complete' and has to be posted serially since I'm doing an ongoing storyline and not individual flash stories each time. The latest one took me over a year to post versus some 5-15k short stories I've done as single chapters that post as complete works. If we dictate how people post by imposing arbitrary deadlines that sort of flexibility isn't an option on the site. 

 

Also, you literally CAN'T review a story until it's posted as complete. We've provided chapter comments that you can easily use on a serial story to just comment on the chapter content and then, once a story is marked complete, there's an area on the story's meta data page that lets you leave a review of the overall story. That was a recognized element that Myr decided on and asked the programmer to put in place in the last update to separate the two different kinds of feedback for authors (and other readers). 

[grahamsealby]

10 hours ago, BHopper2 said:

Absolutely would not be "motivation" and would be a site killer. It would be different, if this was a paying job, then deadlines could be enforced. But seeing as the majority of GA authors are "hobbyist" writers, with real lives outside of writing, then it would drive away authors. It would be like telling GRRM to finish, a Song of Fire and Ice.

How would that be considered a "feature"? If anything, that would be a deterrent to creativity, and drive away Authors. Also, that's a bitter outlook on the site, man. "Non-Starters"? Dude... I can't even... or odd.

'Also, that's a bitter outlook on the site, man. "Non-Starters"? Dude... I can't even... or odd' .  .  .  I don't understand. It wasn't my intention to be 'bitter'.  What do you mean by 'Non Starters' ?  I'm only making suggestions. I don't believe anyone should raise a problem - if, indeed there is one -  without offering a solution. That's all I've been doing. I happen to love GA .  .  . perhaps the only reason I write is that I can use GA as a forum and get feedback. I was trying to make a positive comment

[Brayon]

1 minute ago, grahamsealby said:

'Also, that's a bitter outlook on the site, man. "Non-Starters"? Dude... I can't even... or odd' .  .  .  I don't understand. It wasn't my intention to be 'bitter'.  What do you mean by 'Non Starters' ?  I'm only making suggestions. I don't believe anyone should raise a problem - if, indeed there is one -  without offering a solution. That's all I've been doing. I happen to love GA .  .  . perhaps the only reason I write is that I can use GA as a forum and get feedback. I was trying to make a positive comment

The "Non-Starters" part was in response to William King.

[grahamsealby]

Just now, BHopper2 said:

The "Non-Starters" part was in response to William King.

I'm an Aussie .  .  . I don't know who William King is.

[Brayon]

Just now, grahamsealby said:

I'm an Aussie .  .  . I don't know who William King is.

My post you quoted, was in response to you, and to another Author on the site, Mr. @William King. The first part was address to you, underneath what I quoted from you. The second part, underneath what I quoted from William, is about a Non-Starter comment he made.

 

Below is what I wrote to You, specifically.

10 hours ago, BHopper2 said:

Absolutely would not be "motivation" and would be a site killer. It would be different, if this was a paying job, then deadlines could be enforced. But seeing as the majority of GA authors are "hobbyist" writers, with real lives outside of writing, then it would drive away authors. It would be like telling GRRM to finish, a Song of Fire and Ice.

 

[grahamsealby]

15 hours ago, William King said:

 

How long would that period be? Example: Stannie spent two years writing and publishing The Others, before it was complete - complete in the sense that the story had reached a suitable end and any follow up could be a sequel. Therein lies the problem, and in any event the people at GA are struggling to keep things going as they stand so new features are all pretty much non-starters, although I appreciate where you are coming from with the suggestion.

 

I wasn't suggesting any change should be prioritized as I know that GA are struggling with  new system issues. When I posted the matter I prefaced my comments  by saying, ''perhaps I was way out in the left field' (I know this is a baseball term but have no idea what it means). From the comments I've received it seems that the majority  opinion is that, whilst it may be a good idea, it won't fit the GA dna. So .  .  . I've got my answer.

[Graeme]

In response to the library analogy, think of incomplete stories like incomplete series. People still borrow the Game of Thrones books from the library, despite the series being incomplete. Similarly, people bought or borrowed the Harry Potter novels and Wheel of Time stories before the series were completed. Yes, these are more 'complete' than a single chapter, but we all waited a long time for the next part, too (over ten years in one case I can think of). Indeed, the Wheel of Time series may have ended up as incomplete forever if the author hadn't left enough notes for someone else to finish the series.

[lomax61]

As a reader on GA, I occasionally read both complete and incomplete works. I don't have a problem with either.

 

As an author on GA, I tend to have a solid framework written before starting to post. What I love about this site is that I've found the feedback on each chapter posted (as I'm writing) to be a good indicator of whether I'm on the right track. And if, from the comments, the next step in my plot has been guessed or seems obvious, then I'll rethink the subsequent chapters. This (as well as real world issues) leads to delays in posting, but has rewarded me with a much better storyline and finished project.

 

For amateur writers like me, this is one of the benefits of being here. Readers / reviewers may not be paying to read my stories, but the friendly and supportive ones help me to make them better.

[William King]

 

8 hours ago, Graeme said:

think of incomplete stories like incomplete series. People still borrow the Game of Thrones books from the library, despite the series being incomplete.

 

Perhaps there is an argument there for writing in series or parts, if each part can stand alone with the next being a sequel. It's what I did with my latest story, divided it into four parts, a few chapters to each part. This allowed me to publish when each part was finished and readers knew the next part would be coming, but with a wait inbetween. The story has to lend itself to being divided up, because a story in parts usually means each part is distinguishable in some sense, example part one takes place in London, part two moves to France, etc.