Where's the criticism?

[Dezlboi]

Hey all!

 

I'm a little behind, but I'm catching up on reading the Fall Anthology entries. I'm really happy with the submissions, and all the discussion that followed.

 

Still, I have to ask - where is the criticism? I know a lot of people don't want to come across as being negative, but we're a writing community, right? I love praise for my stories as much as anyone, but I'm here because I want to get better, not because I want someone to tell me my stuff is great and perfect and all that.

 

My writing is a long, long way from perfect. I read published authors like Michael Gabon, Chuck Palahniuk, even (sorry) Douglas Coupland and I see people who really know how to tell a story. My mind just doesn't operate on the same level as them, and although I don't really have aspirations of being a published author, I know if I want to improve, I need to work at it.

 

Half of that process, or course, is feedback and criticism I think is the most valuable kind! If someone can point out grammar mistakes, well, that's helpful...but what I really want to hear about is the sort of stuff I can't learn in technical writiing manuals - how well a plot grabs you, if the story flows, if it's even interesting, and what you would change, if you could. This is what will allow me to gauge if my story had the effect I intended, or if it was enjoyable at all.

 

A lot of it will be taken with a grain of salt - my wrting won't please everyone, and in fact a lot of times a story isn't supposed to please anyone at all. Sometimes it's hard to hear, too, I mean, if I work for a month on a story and someone gives me some pretty blunt criticism, it's going to hurt a little. But I think everything that you have to work at should hurt, a little. So I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I want criticism. I need criticism.

 

I'm going to try and find some time this weekend to go back through the stories and post some critical comments. I will be polite, but I will be honest, and I will have faith that all of the authors here are looking for community help with their writing, so my comments will be at worst accepted as nothing more than my opinion, and at best received as valuable feedback.

 

Maybe some other people will do the same? Let's not be afraid to speak our minds, even if it might ruffle a feather or two. Why else are we here?

 

-Dez

 

(A big wet sloppy kiss to the first person to post a comment in my forum about something they DIDN'T like about my anthology story! Or one of the "letters" I posted on my site...)

[knotme]

I've just read "A Letter to Jon - Letter #2". I hope my comments in your forum are a bit useful. I also reviewed my comment on your anthology entry--kinda saccharin, I must admit. I'll try again., but since then you are well served below.

 

I have commented here and there about things in stories that have apparently been attempted but don't work for me. Mostly, I try to explain what I get out of it, leaving it to the writer to infer what I didn't get out of it. As a non-writer myself, I am reluctant to suggest to a writer how to write his or her story. I think that kind of criticism will have to come mostly from fellow authors.

 

Thanks for this encouragement of criticism. Because my tongue is naturally sharp, and because I know that several valuable authors here have almost quit at times in response to criticism, I am timid, and need a kick in the pants now and then.

Edited November 6, 2006 by knotme

[DarkShadow]

Hey all!

 

I'm a little behind, but I'm catching up on reading the Fall Anthology entries. I'm really happy with the submissions, and all the discussion that followed.

 

Still, I have to ask - where is the criticism? I know a lot of people don't want to come across as being negative, but we're a writing community, right? I love praise for my stories as much as anyone, but I'm here because I want to get better, not because I want someone to tell me my stuff is great and perfect and all that.

 

My writing is a long, long way from perfect. I read published authors like Michael Gabon, Chuck Palahniuk, even (sorry) Douglas Coupland and I see people who really know how to tell a story. My mind just doesn't operate on the same level as them, and although I don't really have aspirations of being a published author, I know if I want to improve, I need to work at it.

 

Half of that process, or course, is feedback and criticism I think is the most valuable kind! If someone can point out grammar mistakes, well, that's helpful...but what I really want to hear about is the sort of stuff I can't learn in technical writiing manuals - how well a plot grabs you, if the story flows, if it's even interesting, and what you would change, if you could. This is what will allow me to gauge if my story had the effect I intended, or if it was enjoyable at all.

 

A lot of it will be taken with a grain of salt - my wrting won't please everyone, and in fact a lot of times a story isn't supposed to please anyone at all. Sometimes it's hard to hear, too, I mean, if I work for a month on a story and someone gives me some pretty blunt criticism, it's going to hurt a little. But I think everything that you have to work at should hurt, a little. So I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I want criticism. I need criticism.

 

I'm going to try and find some time this weekend to go back through the stories and post some critical comments. I will be polite, but I will be honest, and I will have faith that all of the authors here are looking for community help with their writing, so my comments will be at worst accepted as nothing more than my opinion, and at best received as valuable feedback.

 

Maybe some other people will do the same? Let's not be afraid to speak our minds, even if it might ruffle a feather or two. Why else are we here?

 

-Dez

 

(A big wet sloppy kiss to the first person to post a comment in my forum about something they DIDN'T like about my anthology story! Or one of the "letters" I posted on my site...)

 

Keep your kisses for the next contstuctive criticism. You asked... so I'll give you my opinions.

 

First and foremost... and above anything else... my ability to actually SEE the story is going to impact whether or not I'm going to try and read it.

 

Spinning is printed too small, or my resolution is far too high, but for the love of god man, I'm 34. Make it easier for us old folks to see the words 'eh?

 

I also, happen to be colorblind.... Black on a brown background... well... it's not easy for me.

 

Now.... I know that isn't the criticism you intended or expected.... so I'll get to the story and quit my bitching I'll post again when I have something useful for you

I'll go have a peak again at your anthology and see what we come up with

--- Edit

 

You know... I still think that is the prettiest sentence I have read in too long.

 

My 'criticism' is going to be weak. My only complaint would be that you use a lot of run on sentences. You have a tendancy to link too many compound thoughts and sentences with a comma. Break them up, it'll flow better. Honestly, even this is not as cumbersome as this might make it sound.

 

Other than a chance few places, that is honestly my only half hearted complaint. I think it's great. I guess it's hard for me to compelled to complain about something I think is damn near perfect.

 

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

 

Take care!

[JSmith]

The stories on his site should be easier to read now

 

 

Joe

[C James]

Hey all!

 

I'm a little behind, but I'm catching up on reading the Fall Anthology entries. I'm really happy with the submissions, and all the discussion that followed.

 

Still, I have to ask - where is the criticism? I know a lot of people don't want to come across as being negative, but we're a writing community, right? I love praise for my stories as much as anyone, but I'm here because I want to get better, not because I want someone to tell me my stuff is great and perfect and all that.

 

Dezl, THANK YOU for raising this issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

In my case, I requested constructive criticism in both the story page, and in the thread, and even begged via PM for some critical reviews. I was delighted to receive the ones I did from Knotme and Graeme! I also appreciate everyone who commented.

 

I think I need to be more direct, and not say "constructive criticism" but say criticisms instead. Basically, the reason I chose the former is I don't want to just be told "Your story sucks". What I want is to be tole WHY my story sucks. I think I'm going to say exactly that next time.

 

I know that I'm far more comfortable in some cases giving a critical review in a PM than I am in a public post, unless I know the Author is ok with it being public.

 

I probably won't have chance this weekend (Weekends are very busy for me) but by Monday I'll have another look at your story and do my best to write up a critical review, and post it in your thread.

 

And thank you for raising this issue, as it is one that I feel strongly about too.

[sat8997]

I

[Graeme]

I know that I'm far more comfortable in some cases giving a critical review in a PM than I am in a public post, unless I know the Author is ok with it being public.

The same applies for me, though there are circumstances I'll make comment in a public situation -- such as in the Writer's Forum where an author is effectively asking for their writing to be pulled apart. I also had the complication that I don't know most of the authors and in most cases this was the first thing of theirs that I'd read.

 

There have been too many examples of authors getting upset with criticism for me to do anything more than asking a mild question until I have a chance to know how they'll react.

 

Overall, I've found the anthology to have a high standard of writing (I've still got a few to go, but I'm confident they'll be the same). If there is something that needs to be worked on, it's originality. C James's The Muse struck me as the most original story on the list, though Anna's The Little Pumpkin Who Could and Darkshadow's Invisible weren't far behind. I'll put my story in the not-particularly-original list: the basic idea has been done many times. I'd even done something similar in one of my other short stories. Given the nature of the anthology, though, originality is something that will always be more the exception than the rule.

 

That doesn't mean a story isn't any good if it's not original. Nickolas James's story Family Night is one of those simple, heartwarming stories that you enjoy reading.

 

In the case of Facing The Demons by Dezlboi and The Beast of Gallows Point by RHawes16, the anthology format forced restrictions that hurt the story. In the first one, the presence of the three assailants is unexplained and I suspect some of that was the word count limit prevented an explanation. I let that go when I was reading it because I knew there probably wasn't space, but a proper short story should have a minimum of unexplained events. In the later, the author explicitly said there were things he wanted to say to explain a number of points, but the word count worked against him.

 

A number of authors around the world have said that a short story is a difficult thing to write. You don't have enough room to paint a complete picture of the world, so you have to be very careful about what you include and what you leave off. In your case, there is a lot in there that paints a picture of the setting and the lead characters friends -- but a lot of that doesn't add much to the story itself. If this is a lead in to a longer story, that great, but as a standalone piece there is too much extraneous information.

 

Just my opinion, of course

[Razor]

Hey all!

 

I'm a little behind, but I'm catching up on reading the Fall Anthology entries. I'm really happy with the submissions, and all the discussion that followed.

 

Still, I have to ask - where is the criticism? I know a lot of people don't want to come across as being negative, but we're a writing community, right? I love praise for my stories as much as anyone, but I'm here because I want to get better, not because I want someone to tell me my stuff is great and perfect and all that.

 

My writing is a long, long way from perfect. I read published authors like Michael Gabon, Chuck Palahniuk, even (sorry) Douglas Coupland and I see people who really know how to tell a story. My mind just doesn't operate on the same level as them, and although I don't really have aspirations of being a published author, I know if I want to improve, I need to work at it.

 

Half of that process, or course, is feedback and criticism I think is the most valuable kind! If someone can point out grammar mistakes, well, that's helpful...but what I really want to hear about is the sort of stuff I can't learn in technical writiing manuals - how well a plot grabs you, if the story flows, if it's even interesting, and what you would change, if you could. This is what will allow me to gauge if my story had the effect I intended, or if it was enjoyable at all.

 

A lot of it will be taken with a grain of salt - my wrting won't please everyone, and in fact a lot of times a story isn't supposed to please anyone at all. Sometimes it's hard to hear, too, I mean, if I work for a month on a story and someone gives me some pretty blunt criticism, it's going to hurt a little. But I think everything that you have to work at should hurt, a little. So I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I want criticism. I need criticism.

 

I'm going to try and find some time this weekend to go back through the stories and post some critical comments. I will be polite, but I will be honest, and I will have faith that all of the authors here are looking for community help with their writing, so my comments will be at worst accepted as nothing more than my opinion, and at best received as valuable feedback.

 

Maybe some other people will do the same? Let's not be afraid to speak our minds, even if it might ruffle a feather or two. Why else are we here?

 

-Dez

 

(A big wet sloppy kiss to the first person to post a comment in my forum about something they DIDN'T like about my anthology story! Or one of the "letters" I posted on my site...)

 

 

I usually try to stay away from critiquing other people's writing, because a lot of the time I feel like a hypocrite for pointing out the things they do that I do as well because I'm too lazy to fix it. However, here goes, Dezlboi, and remember that I love you! I just pulled up your anthology story, and I decided to comment on it as I go.

 

First off, some things I've seen as very common on this site, which I believe differentiate between amateur writers and less amateur writers.

1. SPELLING AND GRAMMAR! Come ON, this is basic! And if you are just hopeless at it, that's why the good computer Lord made word processors!

2. OVER OVER OVER-use of cliche. It makes me gag.

3. Predictability. If I can tell what's going to happen by reading the first half, why read the second?

4. Complete and utter absence of ALL literary devices. Alliteration, assonance, simile, metaphor, hyperbole, oxymoron, personification, etc. There's a myriad of little things you can stick in your writing to jazz it up. Too many people overlook this.

 

On to my critique of "Facing the Demons".

 

In the first few paragraphs I see a great deal of personification involved, which brings vivid images to my mind. I greatly appreciate this, it makes me want to continue reading. The start of the story is like eating halloween candy, ya get to go through the bag and see all the delicious little tidbits of candy awaiting consumption. It's very nice, I like it.

 

My first criticism... stating instead of showing. As writers, we are ALL guilty of this deadly sin from time to time. In the story, "...but to Ty they always appeared more as though discontented spirits were clinging with desperation to this world, unable to stray far from their final resting places. He had dark, unpleasant feeling about that place..." Okay, I understand why you said the second sentence, but was it truly necessary? Could you have perhaps painted his negative feelings with a few more descriptive sentences, showed his actions (maybe some nervous tapping of fingers, speeding up the car a bit, etc), and shown that he had that feeling instead of saying it? Describing is always so much better than informing.

 

You do a wonderful job most of the time spinning the setting into existence. There are times when the magical way you do it lapses a bit, like thin spots in paint, but overall I am greatly impressed by your ability to create and master settings. Very good.

 

Again, the saying instead of showing things. "Tyler

[Graeme]

My first criticism... stating instead of showing. As writers, we are ALL guilty of this deadly sin from time to time. In the story, "...but to Ty they always appeared more as though discontented spirits were clinging with desperation to this world, unable to stray far from their final resting places. He had dark, unpleasant feeling about that place..." Okay, I understand why you said the second sentence, but was it truly necessary? Could you have perhaps painted his negative feelings with a few more descriptive sentences, showed his actions (maybe some nervous tapping of fingers, speeding up the car a bit, etc), and shown that he had that feeling instead of saying it? Describing is always so much better than informing.

I 100% agree BUT....

 

Showing tends to be more verbose than telling. When a word limit applies, telling is the obvious way to reduce the word count. Equally, you should NOT show everything, because the increased verbosity can detract from the flow of the story. A two line "telling" can keep the story moving while a half page "showing" can cause a break in the momentum.

 

Showing should be used for all important matters (as determined by the author), but minor things can be "told" instead. One guideline would be how much "telling" is required. If you end up with a page of "telling" then maybe something needs to be changed. Two lines of "telling" can probably be left UNLESS it's an important detail being given.

 

Just my opinion, of course. This is an area that I still need to work on myself.

[shadowgod]

I usually try to stay away from critiquing other people's writing, because a lot of the time I feel like a hypocrite for pointing out the things they do that I do as well because I'm too lazy to fix it. However, here goes, Dezlboi, and remember that I love you! I just pulled up your anthology story, and I decided to comment on it as I go.

 

First off, some things I've seen as very common on this site, which I believe differentiate between amateur writers and less amateur writers.

1. SPELLING AND GRAMMAR! Come ON, this is basic! And if you are just hopeless at it, that's why the good computer Lord made word processors!

2. OVER OVER OVER-use of cliche. It makes me gag.

3. Predictability. If I can tell what's going to happen by reading the first half, why read the second?

4. Complete and utter absence of ALL literary devices. Alliteration, assonance, simile, metaphor, hyperbole, oxymoron, personification, etc. There's a myriad of little things you can stick in your writing to jazz it up. Too many people overlook this.

 

On to my critique of "Facing the Demons".

 

In the first few paragraphs I see a great deal of personification involved, which brings vivid images to my mind. I greatly appreciate this, it makes me want to continue reading. The start of the story is like eating halloween candy, ya get to go through the bag and see all the delicious little tidbits of candy awaiting consumption. It's very nice, I like it.

 

My first criticism... stating instead of showing. As writers, we are ALL guilty of this deadly sin from time to time. In the story, "...but to Ty they always appeared more as though discontented spirits were clinging with desperation to this world, unable to stray far from their final resting places. He had dark, unpleasant feeling about that place..." Okay, I understand why you said the second sentence, but was it truly necessary? Could you have perhaps painted his negative feelings with a few more descriptive sentences, showed his actions (maybe some nervous tapping of fingers, speeding up the car a bit, etc), and shown that he had that feeling instead of saying it? Describing is always so much better than informing.

 

You do a wonderful job most of the time spinning the setting into existence. There are times when the magical way you do it lapses a bit, like thin spots in paint, but overall I am greatly impressed by your ability to create and master settings. Very good.

 

Again, the saying instead of showing things. "Tyler

[Dezlboi]

Wow - okay, this is really great! I went out for a bike ride, and came back to find more replies to this thread than I've gotten for some of my writing!

 

I really appreciate all the critique of my story...it's exactly what I was looking for. Maybe what I should have mentioned is that, um, I'm NEW at this! Seriously, before the few meager pieces I have up on my site, I haven't written anything creative since school. So yeah, maybe I write something that I thing sounds good and I post it, but I don't have any idea how much metaphor is too much, or how my dialog is over the top, or any number of other things.

 

Heres the thing though - I really wanted to raise this as a GENERAL topic, not just a personal plea for critique. As I read through threads for everyone's anthology works, I don't see much criticism at all...am I wrong in thinking that this is a writing community and that people want and expect feedback? Or do some people want it, and other people don't?

 

-Dez

[Razor]

Graeme, I completely agree. I should have mentioned that brevity is always an important factor in showing vs. telling.

 

Shdowgod, you make a wonderful point, which I attempted to briefly address by mentioning avoidance of weird words, which can detract from the story, and distract the reader. I simply meant that transitioning into dialogue and avoiding said can greatly reduce the annoyance a reader encounters when their eyes have to skip over that annoying little word a billion times, instead of ending EVERY line of dialogue with "said", which, by the way, Dezlboi was not guilty of. GASP! I ended a sentence with a preposition! Call the grammar gestapo!

 

Dezlboi, you make a great point. Thing is, unless someone asks me for critique, I very rarely give it because I feel underqualified to do it. I have no educational background in English besides taking AP classes in highschool, which isn't really all that impressive. So, beyond "that was pretty good!" or "that absolutely sucked!", I just keep my mouth shut for the most part.

[Graeme]

Heres the thing though - I really wanted to raise this as a GENERAL topic, not just a personal plea for critique. As I read through threads for everyone's anthology works, I don't see much criticism at all...am I wrong in thinking that this is a writing community and that people want and expect feedback? Or do some people want it, and other people don't?

Most us are new writers. I still consider myself a new author because I've only been writing for about two and a half years now. There is still a lot to learn, but I recognise that I'm at the point of diminishing returns -- it's small incremental things I need to improve, not something basic that I'm doing wrong. I like to think I'm doing most things technically correctly (after my editor has fixed things), but the quality needs to improve, and that only comes from practise. Using a sporting analogy, I'm like the gymnast who can get the points for technical merit, but I need to work on the points for artistic flair -- the going over and above the technical requirements.

 

As for your point, I think we need to make it clearer for future anthologies. Are the forums provided to DISCUSS the story or to CRITIQUE the story, or both? Discussing and critiquing are two different things. Most people posting have taking the forum as places to discuss, not critique. Maybe future anthologies should have the initial post state if the author would like criticisms as well as general discussion. Not all authors may want more than a general discussion. This question could be part of the email acknowledgement that is sent out when the submissions are received.

[DarkShadow]

Many times when I 'critique' something I don't really critique. I make a suggestion on another way of stating the same thing. My suggestions are never 'the right way'... only my way of doing it. We each have our own style, and I like to try and give examples for others to see an alternative to what they have written.

 

Knotme was very kind with giving me a more constructive critique via pm, though it was a far cry from anything brutal. He offered to place it in my thread, but I opted against that. Someone elses thread needed to be above mine. There were more than enough comments in 'Invisible' and I wanted to see the others hop up in position.

 

I have a problem with seeing any thread with only one or no posts that sits ignored for any amount of time. So I'll go through each of them and if I have something worth while to post, then I'll add to it. If no one has posted 'anything' then I'll leave a comment even if it is trivial. Someone needs to let the person know that it's been read. Yes I know there is a 'view' column, but that doesn't mean much other than someone entered the thread and then left it as barren as it started.

 

There are of course nice ways to critique. We can be positive starting with our 'bitch' and then ending on a good note or mix and match our praise and complaint. I just try to be as kind as I can when I have a part that was confusing to me, or I thought possibly a word was a bit over used.

 

I am one of the people that is also guilty of using said too much. I try to weave action in and out of place to avoid it, but it's not easy! (excerpt of what I'm working on)

 

---

 

 

[jalaki]

---

 

 

[shadowgod]

Shdowgod, you make a wonderful point, which I attempted to briefly address by mentioning avoidance of weird words, which can detract from the story, and distract the reader. I simply meant that transitioning into dialogue and avoiding said can greatly reduce the annoyance a reader encounters when their eyes have to skip over that annoying little word a billion times, instead of ending EVERY line of dialogue with "said", which, by the way, Dezlboi was not guilty of. GASP! I ended a sentence with a preposition! Call the grammar gestapo!

 

LOL Razor!

 

Said is an innocuous word that is supposed to be invisible. I too thought I used it way too much so I started changing it to words like cooed... yes I used the adverb cooed it was crazy... I'm still trying to master that nuance of writing, well that and sentence structure... But yeah I agree completely transitioning into the dialogue through action is tons better then a million little saids running around...

 

BTW U used the avatar.... cool

 

Steve

 

diff side note would you believe IESpell didn't have dialogue as a word??

[Bardeara]

This is a great discussion that Jeff started ... many questions raised that are worthy of their own discussion threads, either in this forum or in the Writers' Corner.

 

To respond to the question that Graeme asked above: the Hosted and Shared hosted authors each have the right (and responsibility) to set the tone of their individual readers' forums. Actually, they are the moderators of their forums. What kind of discussions they want in their forums, including whether they want readers to publicly critique of any or all of their stories, is totally up to them to decide ... whether it's their anthology stories or chapters of ongoing series.

 

With respect to writers who are not hosted, I would like some feedback from them about this. My inclination would be to follow the same "rule" as with the hosted authors: let them each decide how they want to handle it, in their individual discussion threads in the eFiction forum. That extends to all of their writing, not just their anthology stories.

 

Since one of the Writer Support team's functions is to help the writers, including Hosted authors, with their reader interaction, I expect this is something they could help with as well ... determining the best way of eliciting effective criticism, should the writer want it.

Kitty

 

My two cents on this...

 

How does one make it so that a thread doesn't become one sided? Often the first person posting can set the tone of the thread, until it is highjack so to speak. If that's the case then Kevin's good will nature rubbed off on all of us, which is a good thing I might add, and as a result little creative criticism was expressed.

 

I've realised now that I was actually afraid that everyone was going to be criticising me for my story because I didn't put a lot of detail into it. I got myself a bit worried over that as a direct result of all the great comments I

[C James]

My two cents on this...

 

How does one make it so that a thread doesn't become one sided? Often the first person posting can set the tone of the thread, until it is highjack so to speak. If that's the case then Kevin's good will nature rubbed off on all of us, which is a good thing I might add, and as a result little creative criticism was expressed.

 

I think that the Author can change the tone, in whatever direction they wish, with a carefully worded post or two. I added one to mine inviting criticism in any form, and it helped. I think it would work as well the other way if a thread became a nit-pick fest and the author wanted to change the tone to a more positive one.

 

I've realised now that I was actually afraid that everyone was going to be criticising me for my story because I didn't put a lot of detail into it. I got myself a bit worried over that as a direct result of all the great comments I

Edited November 29, 2006 by C James

[Lugh]

heh

 

I've been wondering where the criticism is for a while, too. I'm not sure if people are even READING my stuff here lately cause no one comments at all -- good or bad. I think I wouldn't mind a "this sucks" comment here or there to let me know if I'm connecting with the readers or if I'm out in left field somewhere. Honestly I think I feel the weeds between my toes.

 

Such is life.

 

 

Lugh