[dkstories] How may time lines are there?

[Altimexis]

It has been easy to simply count 3 timelines in the Do Over series - one for each story, but even Dan points out that there was really a 4th that was generated when Shawn went back to fix Davey's mistakes in the first Do Over.

 

Truth be told, an new time line (or time stream as Shawn calls them) is created whenever someone goes back. Now we haven't been privy to all the different time lines in the series, but how many were there? Let us count:

1. Before anyone goes back, Bush wins the 2000 election and we invade Iraq. This is the time line we're in now, and it is also the timeline at the start of Let's Do It after Shawn resets all time lines by jamming do over technology.
   
2. When Davey fist goes back, we learn that history was changed and Gore won the 2000 election. We never witness the events of this time line and we only learn of it's existence in timeline 4 after the mad scientist goes back to tell us what happened.
   
3. When Sheverdnazi goes back, the Soviet Union survives and the world is ultimately destroyed in a nuclear holocost. This again we learn of only from the mad scientist in time line 4.
   
4. When the mad scientist goes back, he is able to warn President Regan and the events of the first Do Over story occur up until the time that Davey's ship is sunk and Davey dies. Brian tries to recreate do over technology, but ultimately fails and it is through his online journals that Shawn discovers what he must do.
   
5. When Shawn goes back, he is able to warn Davey in time to deal with the Soviet subs, to deploy the nuclear depth charge and to win the war. Davey and Brian get married (as do Shawn and Brandon) and everything proceeds perfectly until Chinese intelligence learns about do over technology and the Chinese manage to build their own time machine.
   
6. When the fist Chinese time traveler goes back, he creates a new timeline, but we never learn about it because Davey follows him back right away. There simply was no time for those in the bubble to assess the effect of the first Chinese time traveler going back.
   
7. Davey's going back a second time starts Do Over Redux, but we'll never know what would have happened had a second time traveler not gone back, too. More than likely Davey's family in Modesto would have never been killed, his friends would have never been brought to Eureka and the Chinese and Russians would have probably proceeded much more slowly in their preparations for war against the US. They would have undoubtedly still tried to get their hands on the mad scientist, recognizing that do over technology was the key to ultimate power. Even if he were still killed, the fact that Brian could come close to recreating the time machine implies that ultimately the commies would have built their own machine and then proceded to nuke the US, and then go back in time to insure worldwide communist domination.
   
8. The second Chinese time traveler going back sets the stage for Do Over Redux as we know it. Davey's family in Modesto would have been killed and the Chinese and Russians would have prepared to invade the US. In the absense of a US effort to build a new time machine, nuclear war would have probably been delayed, but I fear the ultimate outcome would have been a nuclear holocost.
   
9. Shawn went back a second time to warn Davey of the second Chinese time traveler, but the events of time line 8 were already well-established by the time Shawn actually got to Davey, so no warning was necessary. What he did do, however, was to bring back knowledge of do over technology - knowledge that ultimately hastened WW III, but that allowed time line 9 to be ultimately aborted when Davey went back for the 3rd time.
   
10. Davey's 3rd trip back in time lead to the last few chapters in Do Over Redux and all of Doing it Right. But what about the effect of Shawn's 2nd trip back on time line 10? Some might argue that had a means been found to prevent Shawn's return from the future, the natural course of the time line would have been different, but I would argue that Shawn's return had effectively already occured and any steps taken to prevent it would have been a part of the 10th time line and not the creation of a new one.
    
11. The jamming of do over technology in Let's Do It did not create a new time line, but rather restore the original time line 1, a time line that apparently did not have a good outcome by 2036. Brian's return to 1986, his first trip back in time, will lead to the events on Let's Do It, and I can't wait to read more. Will this be the final time line? Well, after Brian comes back, Shawn was still left inside the bubble in 2036 or so. We don't know how much time he may have had left before the bubble collapsed after Brian's trip back, but presumably enough to see if Brian was able to fix things. But what if the 11th time line is as bad as or even worse than the 10th? Might there be enough power for Shawn to go back a few years, build a new time machine, find a way to break through Brandon's jamming signal and go back yet again? Perhaps we'll find out.
    

[dkstories]

 

Yes, I can write in third person although I don't like to that much. Altimexis, my jaw hit the floor on this one...I hope people like it and discuss your posts...I know if I wasn't the author I'd be arguing a lot about some of the things...(in a good way)

[Graeme]

*mutters angrily to himself*

 

Now I've been convinced to start reading yet another series of novels....

 

*tries to work out when he can read them and still get his own writing done...*

 

One thing I immediately noticed when I read the post above (and I haven't read the stories yet), was the similarity to a computer game a friend of mine had back in the 80s/90s : The Journeyman Project.

 

That game involved going back in time to fix changes made by other time travelers, and that was the first thing that struck me when I read the summary.

 

Dan -- did you know about that game and did it inspire you when you wrote this series?

[dkstories]

Nope, Graeme, didn't even know about that...

[EMoe57]

Let me caveat this by saying its been way too long since I went through the Do Over series but I'm not convinced that a person going back creates a new timeline. Each time Sean jumps back, he arrives in the same timeline as Davie. When Davie follows the Chinese time traveler(s) back, he ends up in the same timeline. I just think you've got way too high a count going there Altimexis, but that is a pretty awesome summary as a refresher course on the Do Over series.

 

As for the the year discrepancy, DK had time jumping around in the chapter so bad I wasn't sure what year he actually wanted so instead of crossing through them in RED, I highlighted the suspect wording in yellow so he could choose which way to go. Sorry to see some still got through. Come on, CJ, pile on with the editor teasing. Its Friday night, I'm feeling all right, and it don't matter!

[C James]

It has been easy to simply count 3 timelines in the Do Over series - one for each story, but even Dan points out that there was really a 4th that was generated when Shawn went back to fix Davey's mistakes in the first Do Over.

 

Truth be told, an new time line (or time stream as Shawn calls them) is created whenever someone goes back. Now we haven't been privy to all the different time lines in the series, but how many were there? Let us count:

 

Wow. That is some list! I also think that is the best explanation I've seen yet, and it does fit with my recollections of the story.

 

 

I do have one part that puzzles me though:

Even if he were still killed, the fact that Brian could come close to recreating the time machine implies that ultimately the commies would have built their own machine and then proceeded to nuke the US, and then go back in time to insure worldwide communist domination.

OK, why would they nuke the US then send someone back? Why not just send someone back? Once sent, as I understand it, the sending timeline effectively ceases to exist?

 

That was one heck of a post! Thanks!!!!!!!!!

 

<DK grunts to himself as he quietly copies the above post, pastes it into a microsoft word document and saves it as "Do Over timeilne guideline". Yeah, there's a niggling error in there but he can't remember at the moment if it's because he didn't correct an error in his first chapter (when he first wrote it he started thinking Sean and Brian were in their 60's, but quickly changed it to their eighties. Unfortunately both Emoe and Robert caught some sections where he failed to make the necessary changes and now he can't remember if he ever fixed all of them) It should be 2056 he notes to himself as the year that Brian left...>

 

Yes, I can write in third person although I don't like to that much. Altimexis, my jaw hit the floor on this one...I hope people like it and discuss your posts...I know if I wasn't the author I'd be arguing a lot about some of the things...(in a good way)

 

I remember thinking that they seemed awfully old for 2036, but the possibility of an error never occured to me.

And you certainly can write very well indeed in the third person: DoH is excellent! However, above, you even refer to yourself in the third person! I was going to make a Bob Dole reference here, but since he made those Viagra adds, no one seems to remember the third-person stuff. LoL.

 

Let me caveat this by saying its been way too long since I went through the Do Over series but I'm not convinced that a person going back creates a new timeline. Each time Sean jumps back, he arrives in the same timeline as Davie. When Davie follows the Chinese time traveler(s) back, he ends up in the same timeline. I just think you've got way too high a count going there Altimexis, but that is a pretty awesome summary as a refresher course on the Do Over series.

 

Hmmmm!!! But, when Sean arrives, doesn't he begin a new timeline? It's certainly different from what it would be if he hadn't arrived. Davey at that point is just one of the "original" people in the new timeline, future memories and all?

 

I'm amazed that DK didn't get migraines when trying to reason this stuff out!

 

As for the the year discrepancy, DK had time jumping around in the chapter so bad I wasn't sure what year he actually wanted so instead of crossing through them in RED, I highlighted the suspect wording in yellow so he could choose which way to go. Sorry to see some still got through. Come on, CJ, pile on with the editor teasing. Its Friday night, I'm feeling all right, and it don't matter!

 

Editor teasing? Me?

Well, OK, if you insist... You misspelled "Davey" as "Davie" above.

 

However, I'll share a little detail with you: Remember that chapter you just edited for me? If it wasn't for my beta reader, you would have seen the sun setting more than once that day. I think I managed three sunsets, actually. Oops.

[old bob]

I have the chance to have all the "Do" stories print on paper as "word" files ( 841 pages !) Now I have the pleasure to read all again to check the 11 points of Altimexis. As Dan said : "I know if I wasn't the author I'd be arguing a lot about some of the things...(in a good way)" So I will

Nothing to say about teasing the editor... I know it is no so simple to edit DK

[EMoe57]

However, I'll share a little detail with you: Remember that chapter you just edited for me? If it wasn't for my beta reader, you would have seen the sun setting more than once that day. I think I managed three sunsets, actually. Oops.

Nothing to say about teasing the editor... I know it is no so simple to edit DK

Trust me when I say that DK, while not the easiest author I work with, is right up there near that end of the spectrum. CJ, while not the worst I've seen and subsequently declined to edit, can certainly be a challenge at times but I see improvements as we go so that is a plus. And, as DK & CJ can point out, my edits have missed the author's intent at times. Of course, each author knows they can decline any of my suggested edits and have on done so on more than one occasion.

[Altimexis]

<DK grunts to himself as he quietly copies the above post, pastes it into a microsoft word document and saves it as "Do Over timeilne guideline". Yeah, there's a niggling error in there but he can't remember at the moment if it's because he didn't correct an error in his first chapter (when he first wrote it he started thinking Sean and Brian were in their 60's, but quickly changed it to their eighties. Unfortunately both Emoe and Robert caught some sections where he failed to make the necessary changes and now he can't remember if he ever fixed all of them) It should be 2056 he notes to himself as the year that Brian left...>

 

I noticed that, but went with the earlier age. Come to think of it, Davey would have been a little young to have had a stroke by 2036. I'm afraid there are a lot discrepancies throughout the Do Over series - maybe someday I'll reread the whole thing and compile a list - I think I've read the series at least 3 times through since it's one of my favs.

 

Yes, I can write in third person although I don't like to that much. Altimexis, my jaw hit the floor on this one...I hope people like it and discuss your posts...I know if I wasn't the author I'd be arguing a lot about some of the things...(in a good way)

Thanks, Dan - this is the reaction I'd hoped to achieve.

 

One thing I immediately noticed when I read the post above (and I haven't read the stories yet), was the similarity to a computer game a friend of mine had back in the 80s/90s : The Journeyman Project.

 

That game involved going back in time to fix changes made by other time travelers, and that was the first thing that struck me when I read the summary.

 

This concept has had multiple incarnations in the computer gaming industry. I used to be a regular contributor to discussions revolving around one of Bungie's earliest games, Marathon, in which alternate time lines played a major role. I think I spent days of my time discussing the nuances of the game. One of the biggest arguments was as to whether going back in time terminated the current time line in favor of a new one, or simply generated a new one, leaving two time lines in parallel. The latter concept was just a bit too unsettling to me. We also discussed how saving one's game might constitute a form of mental time travel. The consensus was that when you walked up to a save terminal, the effect was as if you were downloading all the future memories of events from then until you died.

 

Let me caveat this by saying its been way too long since I went through the Do Over series but I'm not convinced that a person going back creates a new timeline. Each time Sean jumps back, he arrives in the same timeline as Davie. When Davie follows the Chinese time traveler(s) back, he ends up in the same timeline. I just think you've got way too high a count going there Altimexis, but that is a pretty awesome summary as a refresher course on the Do Over series.

 

Now this is something I feel comfortable about, and this is just the sort of discussion I'd hoped to generate. The only reason it seems that Shawn comes back to the same time line that Davey's already in is because we never see the time line that existed before Shawn came back. The one exception is time line 4 in which Davey dies. Just because we don't experience a time line through the story doesn't mean it didn't exist. Up until a person goes back in time, all events in history between the arrival date (target date) and the departure date (date inside the bubble) are observable from inside the bubble and therefore they must have occurred.

 

I do have one part that puzzles me though:

OK, why would they nuke the US then send someone back? Why not just send someone back? Once sent, as I understand it, the sending timeline effectively ceases to exist?

That was one heck of a post! Thanks!!!!!!!!!

 

You have a good point there. I assume that if the Chinese and Soviets would be working to build a new time machine, they would assume that we would be as well. I'm not sure how much knowledge of the specifics of time travel the Chinese time travelers brought back, but I doubt they would have wanted to take chances that Davey's limited knowledge would give the US an advantage, even if it meant starting a nuclear war.

 

Oh, and you're welcome.

 

Here's an interesting paradox: Shawn came back in time line 9 to warn Davey of the second Chinese time traveler. If he had been able to observe the events up to the point where he went back in time, what would he have seen. Time line 8 may or may not have ended in a nuclear war, as per the discussion above, but communist domination of the world was a near certainty. He might have seen a world in 2004 through a communist lens, or he might have seen nothing - no internet or broadcast media of any kind if the world had been destroyed a couple of decades earlier. But could he have also seen time line 10? I don't think so, because time line 10 could not have occurred until after he went back in time. However, what if there had been another observer inside the Chinese time bubble - say Brandon or Brian surviving long enough to witness Shawn going back? Would they have seen the outcome of time line 9 - a nuclear holocaust, or would they have seen time line 10?

[EMoe57]

Altimexis, I'm getting a headache just reading your last post! :wacko:

[Altimexis]

Altimexis, I'm getting a headache just reading your last post! :wacko:

 

Sorry about that, but time travel is filled with paradoxes, which is probably why it could never really happen. I suggest you take a couple aspirin, then lie down in a dark room until your headache passes, by which time Dan will hopefully have chapter 2 ready for you to edit.

[Graeme]

As a major SF reader, I am aware that there are multiple theories on time travel and paradox. The one that seems most approriate here is that altering the past does not INSTANTANEOUSLY alter the future. There is a propogation rate for the change, which allows a window in which someone else can go back from the same timeline as the original traveller to try to stop the future from being altered (too much -- the mere fact of going back HAS to alter the future, but that second traveller can go back to mitigate the effects of the first traveller).

 

This means that a number of those timelines mentioned in the original post collapse as they are the same timeline with multiple travellers, rather than one per traveller. It would also explain the issue that CJ raised where there appeared to be multiple travellers in the same timeline.

[Altimexis]

As a major SF reader, I am aware that there are multiple theories on time travel and paradox. The one that seems most approriate here is that altering the past does not INSTANTANEOUSLY alter the future. There is a propogation rate for the change, which allows a window in which someone else can go back from the same timeline as the original traveller to try to stop the future from being altered (too much -- the mere fact of going back HAS to alter the future, but that second traveller can go back to mitigate the effects of the first traveller).

 

This means that a number of those timelines mentioned in the original post collapse as they are the same timeline with multiple travellers, rather than one per traveller. It would also explain the issue that CJ raised where there appeared to be multiple travellers in the same timeline.

 

That's a very interesting way of looking at it, Graeme. The idea of an alteration in the time line propagating through time makes sense from a variety of angles, except it's not what appears to happen in the Do Over series. In DO, Davey went back and, instantly, things had changed and Gore was president. The explanation given in the story as to why those inside the bubble could observe the changed time lines is that the bubble isolated them from the time-space continuum. Scientifically, I gather that do over technology actually consists of 5 distinct technologies (oh no, another list ):

1. The ability to create a bubble that isolates all inside from the time-space continuum
   
2. The use of a drug to freeze brain activity, or at least a person's memories
   
3. The ability to download someone's memories using a variation of an MRI scanner
   
4. The ability to transmit someone's memories back through time to a specific point in time
   
5. The ability to overwrite someones memories with their future memories without the use of any receiving equipment
   

Now all of this is pure fantasy - we don't even know how memories are stored in the brain, much less how to read them or alter them. My guess is that the technology in 4 is somehow related to that in 1. Perhaps the bubble can be used to create a conduit between the two points in time. Whereas physical matter cannot pass in and out of the bubble, information obviously can - those inside can observe what is happening outside and even connect to the internet. (Interesting question - can they also send information out of the bubble through the internet?) Since there is no equipment in the receiving time period (back in the past), there must be some inherent mechanism in human memory that makes it susceptible to alteration by whatever means the information is sent back. And EMoe thought he had a headache before!

 

I think in a way you're right - there is only one true time line and the aborted time lines collapse. Maybe that's why Shawn referred to them as time streams.

 

EMoe, could I maybe borrow some of your aspirin? :wacko:

Edited January 14, 2007 by Altimexis

[EMoe57]

I suggest you take a couple aspirin, then lie down in a dark room until your headache passes, by which time Dan will hopefully have chapter 2 ready for you to edit.

Actually, I checked my mailbox and had chapter 2-12 from DK

[C James]

Sorry about that, but time travel is filled with paradoxes, which is probably why it could never really happen. I suggest you take a couple aspirin, then lie down in a dark room until your headache passes, by which time Dan will hopefully have chapter 2 ready for you to edit.

 

Whether or not paradox is an issue depends on the nature of the universe. If the multiverse theory (hinted at my some aspects of quantum physics but unproven) is correct, each and every time a sub-atomic particle has a possible state change, it takes every possible path, creating a new universe as it does so. (in quantum theory, there are not pre-determined events, merely probabilities, for quanta under various conditions.) This results in an infinite number of parallel universes. Some nearly identical, others exceedingly different. Based upon that theory, a time traveler would not face paradox; he would merely be shifting to a different universe at a prior state. He could not create paradox by killing his own grandfather, as his "real" grandfather exists only in his originating universe.

 

Even in a linear monouniverse (currently accepted theory), it isn't clear whether the laws of physics allow, or prohibit, the existence of closed time-like curves (which is what a time machine would be creating). I'll note that Closed Timelike Curves (which by their nature violate causality) do often appear amongst the solutions to Einstein's general relativity field equations.

 

My best bet, based on both some experimental results in the field of quantum physics, and Einstein's general relativity, is that closed timelike curves can occur, and thus causality is not inviolate. If so, time travel is a theoretical possibility.

 

And BTW, if Causality is violable, then Paradox is not a problem.

 

As a major SF reader, I am aware that there are multiple theories on time travel and paradox. The one that seems most approriate here is that altering the past does not INSTANTANEOUSLY alter the future. There is a propogation rate for the change, which allows a window in which someone else can go back from the same timeline as the original traveller to try to stop the future from being altered (too much -- the mere fact of going back HAS to alter the future, but that second traveller can go back to mitigate the effects of the first traveller).

 

This means that a number of those timelines mentioned in the original post collapse as they are the same timeline with multiple travellers, rather than one per traveller. It would also explain the issue that CJ raised where there appeared to be multiple travellers in the same timeline.

 

I like that. It fits!

 

That's a very interesting way of looking at it, Graeme. The idea of an alteration in the time line propagating through time makes sense from a variety of angles, except it's not what appears to happen in the Do Over series. In DO, Davey went back and, instantly, things had changed and Gore was president. The explanation given in the story as to why those inside the bubble could observe the changed time lines is that the bubble isolated them from the time-space continuum. Scientifically, I gather that do over technology actually consists of 5 distinct technologies (oh no, another list ):

1. The ability to create a bubble that isolates all inside from the time-space continuum
   
2. The use of a drug to freeze brain activity, or at least a person's memories
   
3. The ability to download someone's memories using a variation of an MRI scanner
   
4. The ability to transmit someone's memories back through time to a specific point in time
   
5. The ability to overwrite someones memories with their future memories without the use of any receiving equipment
   

Now all of this is pure fantasy - we don't even know how memories are stored in the brain, much less how to read them or alter them. My guess is that the technology in 4 is somehow related to that in 1. Perhaps the bubble can be used to create a conduit between the two points in time. Whereas physical matter cannot pass in and out of the bubble, information obviously can - those inside can observe what is happening outside and even connect to the internet. (Interesting question - can they also send information out of the bubble through the internet?) Since there is no equipment in the receiving time period (back in the past), there must be some inherent mechanism in human memory that makes it susceptible to alteration by whatever means the information is sent back. And EMoe thought he had a headache before!

 

I think in a way you're right - there is only one true time line and the aborted time lines collapse. Maybe that's why Shawn referred to them as time streams.

 

EMoe, could I maybe borrow some of your aspirin? :wacko:

 

That's an interesting point about the internet. By it's nature, it's two-way communication. You need to be able to send a page request to view a page. That's why downlink-only internet does not exist (unlike a TV signal, which is true one-way communication)

Edited January 15, 2007 by C James

[old bob]

Hey scientists and fictioners

As usual when reading such "high" problems, I go to Wikipedia.and found Multiverse

"A multiverse (or meta-universe) is the hypothetical set of multiple possible universes (including our universe) that together comprise all of physical reality. The different universes within a multiverse are called parallel universes. The structure of the multiverse, the nature of each universe within it and the relationship between the various constituent universes, depend on the specific multiverse hypothesis considered.

Multiverses have been hypothesized in cosmology, physics, philosophy, theology, and fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. The specific term "multiverse", which was originally coined by William James, was popularized by science fiction author Michael Moorcock. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternate universes", "quantum universes", "parallel worlds", or "alternate realities".

Astonishing how many great scientits are aware about the problem ! Time travel leads directly to parallel worlds. We could imagine a story where the actors travel from a world to the other. Nobody did it till now in GA. Or do I forget something ?

 

I checked also Time travel : time travel .

"The first time travel story to feature time travel by means of a time machine was Enrique Gaspar y Rimbau's 1887 book El Anacron

Edited January 15, 2007 by old bob

[Altimexis]

Actually, I checked my mailbox and had chapter 2-12 from DK

[Altimexis]

Whether or not paradox is an issue depends on the nature of the universe. If the multiverse theory (hinted at my some aspects of quantum physics but unproven) is correct, each and every time a sub-atomic particle has a possible state change, it takes every possible path, creating a new universe as it does so. (in quantum theory, there are not pre-determined events, merely probabilities, for quanta under various conditions.) This results in an infinite number of parallel universes. Some nearly identical, others exceedingly different. Based upon that theory, a time traveler would not face paradox; he would merely be shifting to a different universe at a prior state. He could not create paradox by killing his own grandfather, as his "real" grandfather exists only in his originating universe.

 

There is a great Star Trek TNG episode based on this concept, in which Warf keeps jumping between multiverses. The big problem I have with that concept is the astronomical number of universes that would be created at every instant in time. Mitigating that somewhat is that multiple probabilistic solutions can lead to equivalent states, but still the numbers are huge - I'm not sure what order of infinity, but certainly greater than the first order (1/0). In the most disturbing multiverse concept of all, the idea is that the future has already been determined. This is a correlary to the theory - if everything that can happen will, then everything that might happen in the future can be determined now. Some people think that time is nothing more than a random path through all multiverses. If we applied this to the Do Over trilogy, then Davey, Shawn and Brian are simply able to perceive a different multiverse from the future, but that act in itself implies the generation of new multiverses based on the possibility of having future knowledge. Suffice it to say that I have real probelms with multiverses in general. I have no problem with parallel universes - just not ones that we can occupy.

 

Even in a linear monouniverse (currently accepted theory), it isn't clear whether the laws of physics allow, or prohibit, the existence of closed time-like curves (which is what a time machine would be creating). I'll note that Closed Timelike Curves (which by their nature violate causality) do often appear amongst the solutions to Einstein's general relativity field equations.

 

My best bet, based on both some experimental results in the field of quantum physics, and Einstein's general relativity, is that closed timelike curves can occur, and thus causality is not inviolate. If so, time travel is a theoretical possibility.

 

And BTW, if Causality is violable, then Paradox is not a problem.

 

Closed timelike curves are also a favorite in Star Trek. I tend to favor this concept, but I still tend to think their existence is unlikely. General relativity does allow for and even predict their existence, but general relativity does not explain why time is directional. There is no reason why someone shouldn't be able to go backwards in time as easily as forwards. General relativity and quantum mechanics are also at odds with each other. Reality is obviously more complex. I recently read about a new theory, but I cannot remember where I read it or who postulated it, in which it was suggested that time is an illusion. In truth time is a local phenominon as per relativity - there is no such thing as an instant in time shared by 2 distant points in space, since information cannot pass between the two points faster than the speed of light. In the new theory, however, time is merely a perception that we have of the passage of events. It's apparently possible to eliminate time as an independent variable in both quantum mechanics and relativity. There are some bizzare consequences, but in a way it all makes sense. If this is really the case, then time travel would truly be impossible since time doesn't really exist.

 

Thankfully, the Do Over saga occurs in a universe where we don't have to worry about these things - time travel through information transfer is a fact and not a theory.

[old bob]

I recently read about a new theory, but I cannot remember where I read it or who postulated it, in which it was suggested that time is an illusion.

I suppose you are refering to "The Unreality of Time".It is an important paper on the Philosophy of Time written in 1908 by John McTaggart Ellis McTaggart. The paper was published in Mind: A Quarterly Review of Psychology and Philosophy 17 (1908): 456-473.

McTaggart's objective in this paper was to show that change can be understood in terms of events moving from the future to the present to the past and then to try to demonstrate that this change was not a property of events themselves, nor a relation between events and that the time series in which this temporal change appeared to occur does not exist. He then declared that time was not a real thing in the physical world.

As you see, it is not a new theory. Perhaps somebody else presented a new aspect of this theory ?

I'm going to research more (even with headache !)

[C James]

There is a great Star Trek TNG episode based on this concept, in which Warf keeps jumping between multiverses. The big problem I have with that concept is the astronomical number of universes that would be created at every instant in time. Mitigating that somewhat is that multiple probabilistic solutions can lead to equivalent states, but still the numbers are huge - I'm not sure what order of infinity, but certainly greater than the first order (1/0). In the most disturbing multiverse concept of all, the idea is that the future has already been determined. This is a correlary to the theory - if everything that can happen will, then everything that might happen in the future can be determined now. Some people think that time is nothing more than a random path through all multiverses. If we applied this to the Do Over trilogy, then Davey, Shawn and Brian are simply able to perceive a different multiverse from the future, but that act in itself implies the generation of new multiverses based on the possibility of having future knowledge. Suffice it to say that I have real probelms with multiverses in general. I have no problem with parallel universes - just not ones that we can occupy.

Closed timelike curves are also a favorite in Star Trek. I tend to favor this concept, but I still tend to think their existence is unlikely. General relativity does allow for and even predict their existence, but general relativity does not explain why time is directional. There is no reason why someone shouldn't be able to go backwards in time as easily as forwards. General relativity and quantum mechanics are also at odds with each other. Reality is obviously more complex. I recently read about a new theory, but I cannot remember where I read it or who postulated it, in which it was suggested that time is an illusion. In truth time is a local phenominon as per relativity - there is no such thing as an instant in time shared by 2 distant points in space, since information cannot pass between the two points faster than the speed of light. In the new theory, however, time is merely a perception that we have of the passage of events. It's apparently possible to eliminate time as an independent variable in both quantum mechanics and relativity. There are some bizzare consequences, but in a way it all makes sense. If this is really the case, then time travel would truly be impossible since time doesn't really exist.

 

There are some interesting experimental results in quantum mechanics that could indicate that not only do other universes exist, but that they can be interacted with. One is the interfearance patterns gnerated by light passing through slits: when you have a large number of photons (which have both wavelike and particle like qualities) passing through the slits, you predictably get interfearance patterns on the other side. However, they still exhibit this behavior when ONE SINGLE photon is used. One answer to this connundrum is that the photon is being "interfeared with" by by a photon in the experiment in a a "nearby" universe.

 

I suppose you are refering to "The Unreality of Time".It is an important paper on the Philosophy of Time written in 1908 by John McTaggart Ellis McTaggart. The paper was published in Mind: A Quarterly Review of Psychology and Philosophy 17 (1908): 456-473.

McTaggart's objective in this paper was to show that change can be understood in terms of events moving from the future to the present to the past and then to try to demonstrate that this change was not a property of events themselves, nor a relation between events and that the time series in which this temporal change appeared to occur does not exist. He then declared that time was not a real thing in the physical world.

As you see, it is not a new theory. Perhaps somebody else presented a new aspect of this theory ?

I'm going to research more (even with headache !)

 

I've always viewed time as simply another spatiel dimension, a fourth co-ordinate. It has already been proven that time is not a constant , so can there be a negative flow of time? I don't see why not.

[BlueSoxSWJ]

• The jamming of do over technology in Let's Do It did not create a new time line, but rather restore the original time line 1, a time line that apparently did not have a good outcome by 2036. Brian's return to 1986, his first trip back in time, will lead to the events on Let's Do It, and I can't wait to read more. Will this be the final time line? Well, after Brian comes back, Shawn was still left inside the bubble in 2036 or so. We don't know how much time he may have had left before the bubble collapsed after Brian's trip back, but presumably enough to see if Brian was able to fix things. But what if the 11th time line is as bad as or even worse than the 10th? Might there be enough power for Shawn to go back a few years, build a new time machine, find a way to break through Brandon's jamming signal and go back yet again? Perhaps we'll find out.
  

 

This last one is the only part I disagree with. It would be interesting to have a philosophical debate about whether 2 identical timelines should be counted as distinct, but that's not relevant. In this timeline, there is now a jamming field over Do Over technology that never existed in the original timeline, so it is unique and thus a new timeline (imo). In fact, we see in LDI [to be fair, AFTER you posted this] that the scientist does eventually break the jamming anyways. Thus, there might well have been a large number of timelines created that never existed before when Sean activated the jammers, that we'll never even know about! Thus, I maintain my post in the discussion thread of LDI ch 20:

 

Indeed, I thought about this as well, when there have been scenes where the timelines get numbered. If you want to get technical, an entire timeline is played out EVERY time a change is made. This means timeline 1 would be the original. Timelines 2-5 would be after Davey went back, after Shevrenadze went back, after dr. crazy went back, and when Sean went back.

 

DOR would then create timelines 6-9, as the first Chinese traveler, Davey, the second Chinese traveler, and Sean went back. DIR (well, actually, DOR ch 31) creates and is timeline 10. The start of LDI would then create timelines 11 (after signals were jammed) and 12 (Brian goes back). Finally, Shevrednadze and Sean go back again, creating lines 13 and 14. Now, Brian going back will create timeline 15, though since he only counts timelines Davey and then he remembered, he'd call it timeline 6 - he would count timelines 1, 5, 9, 10, 12, and now 15.

 

Maybe it would be an interesting exercise to try to write one of the "erased" timelines (except 4, which we know all about from DO chs 37,38), such as timeline 2. Obviously, we'd expect it not to differ until DO ch 17, when the agents show up at the Rush house ...

[mgh397]

1X.- "Real-Life" time-line.

2A.- The one where Davey goes back first.

2B.- When Sheverdnazi goes back.

2C1.- When the mad scientist goes back.

2C2.- When the mad scientist is killed and Davey dies.

2C3.- When Shawn goes back and saves Davey.

2C3A.- When the fist Chinese time traveler goes back.

2C3B.- The one where Davey goes back a second time.

2C3C.- When the second Chinese time traveler goes back to warn about Davey.

2C3D.- Shawn goes back to warn Davey about the second Chinese.

2C3E.- The mad scientist is killed, a time-line is aborted.

2C3E1.- Davey goes back a third time.

2C3E2.- The mad scientist is killed, a time-line is aborted.

2C3E3.- Sheverdnazi is killed, a time-line is aborted.

2C3E4.- The first Chinese is killed, a time-line is aborted.

2C3E5.- The second Chinese is killed, a time-line is aborted.

2C3E6.- Shawn goes back to warn Davey about the second Chinese (as in 2C3D).

1Y.- The time-line reset with Brian's Jamming.

2.- Brian goes back.

2A.- The mad scientist goes back.

2B.- Sheverdnazi goes back.

2C.- Shawn goes back.

2C1.- Brian goes back a second time.

 

Things to remember:

1.- Remember that the time-line the first Chinese guy goes back is the one where Sheverdnazi is already in.

2.- Every time someone goes back they do it to the last time-line as it is the "current" one.

3.- The bubble is in a "no-time" zone, that's why the people inside is able to see the changes that happen around them.

 

A question:

Why would they in 2C3E6 think that 1X could be a better time-line when Davey and Shawn lived in it until 2004? Yes, there's the possibility that things might go bad for the world after that year and until 2036, but Davey and Shawn knew how was that world and where it might lead to, right?

 

Things to consider:

1.- Theorists suggest that there's no such thing as an "overwritten" time-line, that ALL time-lines exist in parallel universes; some even say that, sometimes, the ghosts people see are "reflections" from those universes, the closer the parallel universes are, the easier to see them. Every time someone, anyone, takes a decision, a parallel universe is created, as many as there were options.

2.- In many sci-fi books, movies, and the like, the changes happen as in a "wave"; this is based in a theory that say that for time to be able to be "linear" and "cyclical", it must be a "wave"; in fact, more like a "curl" or a "loop".

[BeaStKid]

1.- Theorists suggest that there's no such thing as an "overwritten" time-line, that ALL time-lines exist in parallel universes; some even say that, sometimes, the ghosts people see are "reflections" from those universes, the closer the parallel universes are, the easier to see them. Every time someone, anyone, takes a decision, a parallel universe is created, as many as there were options.

This sounds like the Bifurcation Theory.

 

That was a very apt summary. Thanks

 

The BeaStKid

[Altimexis]

This last one is the only part I disagree with. It would be interesting to have a philosophical debate about whether 2 identical timelines should be counted as distinct, but that's not relevant. In this timeline, there is now a jamming field over Do Over technology that never existed in the original timeline, so it is unique and thus a new timeline (imo). In fact, we see in LDI [to be fair, AFTER you posted this] that the scientist does eventually break the jamming anyways. Thus, there might well have been a large number of timelines created that never existed before when Sean activated the jammers, that we'll never even know about! Thus, I maintain my post in the discussion thread of LDI ch 20:

 

I concede the point - you're absolutely right.

[dkstories]

Okay smart guys...how many timelines are there now? (I just gave up counting, btw).