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Danger: Inclusive Messaging Ahead

Thorn Wilde

Entry posted by Thorn Wilde

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Consider the title your warning. This is my blog. I write what I want. Deal with it. B)

 

I think it's a shame that we can't have philosophical discussions on ways to potentially expand and improve our writing horizons without someone taking it personally and ruining the party. This is supposed to be a website for authors and their stories. You'd think that discussing writing techniques and tools would be integral to that.

When it comes to writing tools, techniques, and advice, you're free to take it or leave it. Nobody acts like you're trying to force them to do something when you talk about voice, plot building, world building, POV, whether prologues are good or bad, etc. But as soon as you so much as mention ways of measuring whether your writing is diverse and inclusive, people act like you're holding a gun to their head. This has happened before. Can we have a conversation about these things like adults, please? Can we bring up the mere existence of gender without someone throwing a hissy fit?

To those of you who are so opposed to the mere idea that other people may want to make a conscious effort to make their work diverse and inclusive, maybe you should take a moment to think about why you feel so attacked by it? Nobody seems able to give an answer other than, 'Because I don't like people telling me what to do!' Even though nobody has told them what to do. When someone says they don't like stories written in the present tense, I don't get offended or think they're trying to tell me I can't write stories in the present tense. When someone says they prefer third person over first, I don't think they're trying to tell me I have to write in third person. Because they're not. 

If someone goes, 'Here's a handy way to avoid adverbs in your story,' I say, 'Well, I probably won't use it cause I actually like having some adverbs in my stories, but thanks, I'll put it in the box with the rest of my writing tools.' And maybe one day I'll decide that I should cut down on adverbs, and I'll take it out, dust it off, and use it. Or not. 

But if someone says, 'This is a test for measuring representation of women in fiction, isn't that interesting?' you can be damn sure someone will lose their shit and assume we're trying to force them into shoehorning more women into their work. And no amount of assurances that that isn't what's going on will convince them otherwise.

If you're reading this and you have no idea what I'm talking about, consider yourself lucky. Suffice it to say, we had a party, someone got drunk, someone called the cops, and now the party's over.

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Thorn Wilde

Thorn Wilde 27,004

Posted

5 minutes ago, droughtquake said:

Oh, no. My creativity comes in very tiny bits. Writing was always something I struggled with in English class. That and spelling (but my parents helped improve my spelling over time with family games of Scrabble and Boggle). Everything I did was too derivative and unoriginal. I have trouble creating something coherent because my thinking is very disorganized.

I’ll leave the writing to my favorite authors who are much more talented than I could ever be!
;–)

What tim said. :) 

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Parker Owens

Parker Owens 61,967

Posted

I hesitated to participate in the previous discussion. I guess I really wanted to take time to think about it, and to consider the general rule of thumb being talked about. After time to reflect, I appreciated the idea. I’m grateful it got my attention. 

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Former Member

Former Member 5,655

Posted

[sarcasm not aimed at anyone in particular]

If this were a ‘How Energy Efficient Are You’ test, some people would be complaining that they’re rich enough to not need to worry about saving energy. How dare any of us impinge on their right to waste money! What business is it of ours to question their need to have open spaces where energy nazis have triple-paned windows? Just for that, I’ll run both my air conditioner and coal-fired furnace all day and all night even when I move back to my cave half the year.

[/sarcasm]

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Cia

Cia 59,540

Posted

  • Site Administrator
On 2/28/2020 at 5:16 PM, Thorn Wilde said:

There are no rules on GA about political stories. Ask me in PM if you want to know about the project I'm working on... :P 

This is a misapprehension in a way. Overall, we do allow political themes, content, and characters in stories. However, please be aware that if an author posts content with political themes in such a way that baits other members based on previous site interactions, such as by mimicking conversations, POVs, involving direct conversational themes, that could be considered a personal attack and/or a site disruption which would be moderated. Using comments to create a conversation about specific current political events and people being mirrored in a story could also be moderated. 

Also, speaking to your original blog post, maybe consider how the comments regarding views toward the use of 'adverbs' and the use of 'inclusive themes' come across. How many comments are made about how adverbs should be represented fairly are posted here because gay authors under or overuse them or only use them in specific events because they have a limited POV or interest in using them due to "this or that" lack in their lives...? There was a comment about how most stories on this site would fail the Bechdel test vs. not failing it due to the sexual content of the story and 'that is indeed sad'. Sound non-judgmental? Nope. 

Conversations about inclusivity revolve around judgment. There seems to be no getting away from that. Judging from people who want everyone and everything to be included and feel as if that isn't happening among those who say no way, don't tell me what to write and judging from those who just want to write what they feel comfortable with and what feels integral to the story toward those they feel are trying to tell them how they should do that to fit in a mold. That doesn't mean it's true on either part, but it doesn't change the perception. Since some members can't seem to be able to phrase their desire to include themes without sounding judgmental and some members can't seem to stop from getting irate and responding in a way that then creates a disruption... the site staff has to step in. Clearly this has become a topic that on GA, as well as in real life, polarizes people.

I'd rather write, or read, and just get on with all my site work without all the drama, thanks. So let's keep the conversations to The Pit where everyone who chooses to participate is aware of the potential controversy to follow. 

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Thorn Wilde

Thorn Wilde 27,004

Posted

6 hours ago, Cia said:

So let's keep the conversations to The Pit where everyone who chooses to participate is aware of the potential controversy to follow. 

I more and more get the feeling that GA staff's definition of political is 'things people disagree on/have feelings about' rather than having anything to do with actual politics. I tried in the past to get a concrete answer as to whether precisely this kind of topic might be considered political by staff and was unable to get a clear answer. This topic does not pertain to current legislation, it is not party political, it doesn't seem to go against any of the rules we've actually been told about as far as politics are concerned.

I get shutting down the topic because it was becoming heated (I don't agree with it, but I get it and I accept it). I don't get moving it to the pit where many of the people who were taking part in the discussions aren't members. Especially since the topic itself isn't political. 

As for what you said about political stories, well, those aren't political stories then, are they? That could go for anything, not just politics. I could make a caricature of a GA member and put it in my story, or rehash conversations that have been had on site of any kind without the permission of the people involved, and that would not be okay, politically motivated or not (and I would never do it, just so we're clear). Tying it to politics just demonises a completely valid theme in storytelling and, again, nowhere in the rules does it say that political themes are not allowed. And what would happen if I wrote a bad guy who just so happened to have opinions similar to some members of this site, without being in any way inspired by them, because my characters disagree with those opinions? Would I be punished for that? If you begin to censor stories beyond what's clearly stated in the site rules as unacceptable content, I doubt that would go over well.

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Cia

Cia 59,540

Posted

  • Site Administrator

I stated how and when a story using "political themes" would potentially be reviewed, such as when it is being used in direct response to a political debate with another member and involving situations with that member. I didn't say the politics would be the reason for that, I said it would be the personal attack or harassment. Masking the continuation of a personal views conflict outside of The Pit by satire in a story, subtle though it might seem, is not something that is allowed. 

And I will say this many times. Inclusion IS a political theme. People seem to have this misapprehension that politics solely revolves around governments, officials, and laws/policies. That is a misapprehension. Look up the word. Politics clearly includes the views and relations of groups within society. When the subject of inclusion is started and words constantly crop up like 'politically correct', and you begin to divide along two lines that have opposing views and conversations become contentious... that only makes this more obvious. Politics appears books, TV, movies, and now on GA. So it's going to be kept to The Pit where those who want to argue about their personal views can do so without wasting staff time. 

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Wayne Gray

Wayne Gray 41,789

Posted

9 hours ago, Cia said:

I'd rather write, or read, and just get on with all my site work without all the drama, thanks. So let's keep the conversations to The Pit where everyone who chooses to participate is aware of the potential controversy to follow. 

I understand why it was moved.

If I was looking at a new site on which to post my work, and I saw established authors having that sort of argument here ... I'd have turned around. So, from a business/recruitment perspective it makes sense.

From a creative one it doesn't.

I hope in finding that balance GA doesn't moderate itself into an echo-chamber.

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Cia

Cia 59,540

Posted

  • Site Administrator

There are lots of ways to be creative and expand your knowledge base. There are even other ways to share information about expanding characterization in stories. Rather than just passing along a test and stating that it measures this or that, try it on your own work and then reflect on how it might change your writing practices. Think more in generalities. Just pushing for one or two aspects of writing to be added can be seen as pushing a viewpoint of what is or isn't progressive/politically correct/etc... 

To contrast that, take a look at this past Article on exposition that includes information on how craft characters in a story in ways that make sense for the plot, for example, that has nothing to do with gender or sexuality or any arbitrary number of 'this or that': 

 

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Thorn Wilde

Thorn Wilde 27,004

Posted

50 minutes ago, Cia said:

There are lots of ways to be creative and expand your knowledge base. There are even other ways to share information about expanding characterization in stories. Rather than just passing along a test and stating that it measures this or that, try it on your own work and then reflect on how it might change your writing practices. Think more in generalities.

With respect, that's exactly what we were doing. We weren't pushing for anything. All of us were talking about how it related to our own work, or we were talking in generalities. Nobody was saying that this is something writers should do, only that it's something they can do and some of us want to do. The problems didn't start until some people decided to take it personally and assume we were trying to push for it, when none of us were. For my own part, I even wrote specifically that it's not always feasible, that it's not a measure of quality, that many of my own stories and several of my favourite books don't 'pass', and that people should write whatever they want to write. I think a lot of us feel like we're being held responsible for other people's feelings, and that just doesn't seem fair.

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Wayne Gray

Wayne Gray 41,789

Posted

2 minutes ago, Thorn Wilde said:

I think a lot of us feel like we're being held responsible for other people's feelings, and that just doesn't seem fair.

This, right here.

The messaging was careful. Repeatedly, it was stated the information was for those interested. But, as soon as one of the participants stated that the very existence of the tool offended them, I knew the conversation was doomed.

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Former Member

Former Member 5,655

Posted

The term ‘Politically Correct’ is only used by one side to demonize a topic and poison the conversation. It is a trigger phrase used to shut down discussion. At least twice it was used to justify censoring a Topic.

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Cia

Cia 59,540

Posted

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37 minutes ago, droughtquake said:

The term ‘Politically Correct’ is only used by one side to demonize a topic and poison the conversation. It is a trigger phrase used to shut down discussion. At least twice it was used to justify censoring a Topic.

It's not censored. Anyone who chooses to participate can still do so. In fact, you can now do so with more free rein in The Pit. The whole concept of the test is to identify gender inequality in fiction, per the link. Again, that is a concept that goes straight to a political concept based on the definition of politics. When talking about creating realistic fiction, why focus just on gender? Just on sexuality? Why narrow in on such trigger concepts instead of focusing widely on creating realistic characters and interactions that represent real life: adults, children, men, women, primary, secondary, and incidental characters with interactions that fit within the story's framework? It's because there's a social concept--a political concept--being pushed about gender equality in fiction that is being shared instead of just expanding fictional worlds being fully developed. 

And that makes it political. Thus, post it in The Pit. I'm not arguing the point, the decision has been made.

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Comicality

Comicality 34,947

Posted

 

I wanted to give some brief thoughts on the topic, as it's something that I've spent years dealing with in one way or another.

I've been writing a TON of new writer advice topics to post here on GA (I'm at about ten or twelve right now, but I'm aiming at about 25 or 30), and one of those topics deals with writer diversity. I'm not exactly sure when this became such a 'hot topic', and I can't say that I really understand it, but it's something that I felt needed to be put into perspective, as there's a way to do it, and a way NOT to do it. It's all a matter of finesse when it comes to your talents as an author, I think. But it's nothing to be forced, or to feel assaulted by. I think both sides can take an extreme position on the idea, and it just isn't necessary. There's no 'argument' to be had. Either you like it or you don't? Like I've always said, I find it hard to believe that people can't find EXACTLY what they want to find and avoid what they don't on the vast landscape of the entire internet. So...why are we fighting about this? You know?

Life is life and truth is truth...whether it makes us uncomfortable or not. But that's ok. We have enough space on this planet to coexist. So where is the problem. I'm willing to talk about stuff like this without judgement. And I can be passionate about my opinions, but if I feel the conversation going a different way and getting heated...I'll tap out. "Let's just agree to disagree." What do we have to win? You know? I'd be bored SILLY if everybody thought the same way that I did! Challenge me. I'll challenge you. And if we end on a stalemate, then so be it. We'll go out later and have a beer anyway.

Anyway, I haven't sent in any of my writing advice topics yet, but if anybody here wants an early glimpse at the "Character Diversity" article that I wrote, you can email me at Comicality@shackoutback.net and I'll send you an early copy of it. Get an HTML converter or something online, as it includes some youtube videos and the like. But it talks about some dos and don'ts about adding a variety of characters to your stories, not overdoing it or making an 'agenda' out of it all, and how character diversity has ALWAYS been a part of fiction, long before it was labeled as a hot button topic or a political discussion. Men, women, straight, gay, black, white, trans, teens, adults, blind, deaf, handicapped, Latino, rich, working class, effeminate, in the closet, out of the closet...I've written about them all. And it can be done without pushing the narrative to make an aggressive point, or agitating people to feel like their being assaulted by the idea. 

It's just a matter of us understanding that all of reality doesn't have to follow our personal rules or stay in our comfort zone. And a matter of us, as writers, realizing that some people can be triggered by certain ideas...but that's not our fault. nor is it our responsibility. 

We think differently. I mean...when did that stop being ok? ::Shrugs::

Anyway, I have Monday off. Email me if you want the article. You can have it.

 

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Former Member

Former Member 5,655

Posted

Mentioning that things even exist outside some people’s comfort zone seems to trigger anger and fear.

Brayon

Brayon 40,953

Posted

People who know me, or just follow some of the stuff I've posted here on GA over time, know that I fight Bi-polar and Depression among other disabilities. Things haven't been going well, and well I wasn't in the right frame of mind when this topic came up over the weekend. I wasn't making myself clear, and was lashing out based on prior personal history. I do regret my actions that furthered this topic to be relegated to The Pit.

To set the record straight, I do not have any issues with diversity and inclusion in stories. If someone wants to use something as a aide, more power to you. What I do take exception to, is when someone weaponizes those tools, against others.

I find it funny, that two years ago, I wrote about this topic in a Topic Tuesday post in the Writer's Circle. In two years we went from a civil discourse in our private author forum, to the topic being relegated to the pit.

 

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Thorn Wilde

Thorn Wilde 27,004

Posted

3 hours ago, Brayon said:

People who know me, or just follow some of the stuff I've posted here on GA over time, know that I fight Bi-polar and Depression among other disabilities. Things haven't been going well, and well I wasn't in the right frame of mind when this topic came up over the weekend. I wasn't making myself clear, and was lashing out based on prior personal history. I do regret my actions that furthered this topic to be relegated to The Pit.

To set the record straight, I do not have any issues with diversity and inclusion in stories. If someone wants to use something as a aide, more power to you. What I do take exception to, is when someone weaponizes those tools, against others.

I find it funny, that two years ago, I wrote about this topic in a Topic Tuesday post in the Writer's Circle. In two years we went from a civil discourse in our private author forum, to the topic being relegated to the pit.

 

As you know, I'm bipolar too. So, yeah, I know how it can be and I've reacted similarly to things in the past. For what it's worth, I'm sorry you went through all that with those other people, and I'm sorry the discussion turned out the way it did. Those of us on the other 'side', as it were, could probably have handled it better too. I hope things are cool between us. I want them to be.

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Wayne Gray

Wayne Gray 41,789

Posted

4 hours ago, Brayon said:

People who know me, or just follow some of the stuff I've posted here on GA over time, know that I fight Bi-polar and Depression among other disabilities. Things haven't been going well, and well I wasn't in the right frame of mind when this topic came up over the weekend. I wasn't making myself clear, and was lashing out based on prior personal history. I do regret my actions that furthered this topic to be relegated to The Pit.

To set the record straight, I do not have any issues with diversity and inclusion in stories. If someone wants to use something as a aide, more power to you. What I do take exception to, is when someone weaponizes those tools, against others.

I find it funny, that two years ago, I wrote about this topic in a Topic Tuesday post in the Writer's Circle. In two years we went from a civil discourse in our private author forum, to the topic being relegated to the pit.

Yeah, I get the "weaponizing" comment. I feel the same way about a lot of things that should be good and add to our lives, but are instead used as excuses to hate others (including people like me).

I think you'd find a tidal wave of support if what happened to you before was even hinted at here. It wouldn't stand.

I hope you feel better soon. I know what it's like to be pressed down on the bottom, crushed by everything. Thorn's right ... we could have done better. Sorry to be a part of that.

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