9.11

[Mark Arbour]

I will say it again, I am realy angry about Robbie. He does the most horrible thing, yes it is a nice and heroic gesture to try and save Jeanine and Hank but he knows there is a big chance they will not make it, so the goodbye message, and he does not know that Brad is probably safe, he was suppose to be on the top of the tower when the first plane crashed. So he goes on a sucide mission and his children are still not off the wood yet, with a good chance of leaving them completly orphans having lost all three parents. So that does not qualify as a heroic selfless act, it is pure stupidity. Lot of people risked thier lives to save other on the tower, and many lost their lives in the process, but they were professionnals who had an idea of the risk they took, and their children are safe and sound with the other parent or family member. That is a big difference, even if it not that much of a confort for the family they left behind.

 

I agree that looking back always make decision easier, especlialy were you are not the one living it, but when you have children, you are a parent first, or should be. Children are the one left behind, and hearing your parent is dead but he/she try to save people, do not change the reality of loss. So when you have one parent already out of the picture the best thing you can do is being the pillar your child need the most. I may seem a bit vindictive here but I was an orphan before I reach my 18th birthday. I lived the hurt and the lonelyness that came with the death of a parent when my mother died first when I was 13 on a car crash and I saw my father drunk himself to death after that. Sure we cannot compare because here Robbie try to save someone not kill himself but with 2 parents probably already out of the picture the safety of the children come first. The people that I admire the most from that are from the plane that crash in Pensylvania. The passenger learn what happened at the WTC and they knew they were probably going to die not matter what, so they decided to at least avoid the death of others from the crash of the plane.

 

Thanks for your posts, especially the last one, where you explained your reasoning.  It's inevitable those will impact you, and effect how you view things: I'm glad you gave us your perspective. 

 

I view things a little differently than you do, but that's because I don't have your history.  I think that Robbie figured that his two sons (and Maddy) were through the worst of it, and to the degree that they could escape, they would be able to do that without him.  In other words, he had the confidence in them to be able to get out.  He would not have thought going back for Jeanine and Hank was a suicide mission, he would have seen it as the right thing to do, to go and try and save other family members.  Now that they knew there was a passable way out, he wanted to guide them through it.  He also knows that if something happens to him, there are other people who are capable of taking care of his sons, and in some ways, maybe even more capable than him.  He wouldn't have known that Brad was safe, but he would assume that JP was, and he has a lot of confidence in him.  He also knows that Claire and Jack would step up and be surrogates for him, as would his father and Isidore.  So he's risking his own safety to try and save Jeanine and Hank.

 

Think of what Robbie would be like if he didn't do that.  I can't even think of kinky enough things for him to get into to deal with that pain, the pain of thinking that he could have saved them, but chose not to.  If Will and Darius needed his help, he would have stayed with them.  Since they didn't, he went off to help the others, who did. 

[Carlotta]

 He also knows that if something happens to him, there are other people who are capable of taking care of his sons, and in some ways, maybe even more capable than him.  He wouldn't have known that Brad was safe, but he would assume that JP was, and he has a lot of confidence in him.  He also knows that Claire and Jack would step up and be surrogates for him, as would his father and Isidore.

I didn't see things from his perspective, thanks to remind me. You are right he would have feel guilty and that would consume him lkie a virus. I also kind of forgotten the fact that they are part of a big, close and loving family that will support them not matter what. It is a bit ironic, the fact that your story is about a big loving family that we follow through generations is what I love the most. Sure, they all have their fault, but they love and help eachother, for me it is a dream. There is a quote often use that is : You do not choose your family. You prove that wrong, that family is less link by blood than by love. Thank you.

[PrivateTim]

Think of what Robbie would be like if he didn't do that.  I can't even think of kinky enough things for him to get into to deal with that pain, the pain of thinking that he could have saved them, but chose not to.  If Will and Darius needed his help, he would have stayed with them.  Since they didn't, he went off to help the others, who did. 

 

Hmmm, well I guess that is that then.......

[Mark Arbour]

I didn't see things from his perspective, thanks to remind me. You are right he would have feel guilty and that would consume him lkie a virus. I also kind of forgotten the fact that they are part of a big, close and loving family that will support them not matter what. It is a bit ironic, the fact that your story is about a big loving family that we follow through generations is what I love the most. Sure, they all have their fault, but they love and help eachother, for me it is a dream. There is a quote often use that is : You do not choose your family. You prove that wrong, that family is less link by blood than by love. Thank you.

 

You probably forgot they're a big loving family because they haven't been acting like a big loving family lately. 

[rjo]

I woke up early and waited for the last chapter to post. first I must say Mark your skill in dealing with this day this event is unbelievable. The many points of view, the shock, the indecition, the confusion all of it. I have to believe that Stef and Brad will make it out of the north tower. Hopefully, Darius and Will with Maddy in tow will make it from the south tower. If this happens, and Jeanine, Hank, Robbie and the senator are lost, two things come to mind, the lose of Robbie will hurt Brad the most. Will once said Robbie was the glue which holds the family ( Brad's part of the family) together. The second is the promises. Will is the type of person which will do everything he can to keep those promises. In some ways it will help him to grow up faster. If that is possible. I worry the most about Brad. I am not sure he will make it. His relationship with Robbie has been rocky in the last few months. Hopefully the family will pull together.

 

I like the idea that Claire and Jack would help raise Maddy.( Thanks Tim) That way she would be close to Will.

 

We still have not heard from Wade. Wouldn't it be awful for Wade and Matt to lose both of their fathers on the same day.

[methodwriter85]

Second thought:

"Damn. Elizabeth IS going to take over the reins for her husband. And her approach to politics is going to resonate really really well in the coming months. A grieving widow, acting as a pillar of strength to her family and community even through her grief is going to be able to get away with absolutely anything, including expressing any level of rage."

 

     The other cynical thought I had was that this saves Elizabeth Danfield from having to call herself divorced, which still has a bit of stigma in politics. Now she can just be a widow.

 

     Sentator Danfield's death was a dark comedic relief moment, which was needed. I also figure that Wade will be grateful for the fact that although their relationship was mostly marked with pain, they had a good final two years together, where things were probably the best they were ever going to get, and where Wade could look at himself in the mirror and not hate his reflection because it looked like Jeff's.

 

     As for Robbie, I saw it as the final act in the Hayes Curse. It started with Aaron's heroic death, which wasn't actually a death at all. Then it continued with Jeff Hayes who died of a drug overdose, then his son Billy dying at just short of his 16th birthday, because he caved into peer pressure and drove in a car with people he knew were drunk. Then Marcel almost dies of a drug overdose. With Robbie's death, a Hayes finally gets a heroic death- a real one, not the fake one that started the curse in the first place.

 

    I did have an inkling that it would happen, especially when the gang were discussing Pearl Harbour while they were reading Steven's diaries, and Robbie said without a doubt that he'd fight to protect someone he loved. It's the Hayes code- the good Hayes code, in any event.

 

    I have to feel the worst for Frank, though- he's survived thinking his older brother died, being abused by his father, having his little brother die, dealing with his youngest son getting raped, having his long-lost nephew die, getting divorced from his wife, becoming estranged from his other two children, and now surviving the only child he still has a relationship with.

Edited September 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

I am going to wait until the next chapter to say my goodbyes to Robbie and the Senator since both could still be pulled from the rubble.....

[MJ85]

I am going to wait until the next chapter to say my goodbyes to Robbie and the Senator since both could still be pulled from the rubble.....

I really hope you are right about this.

[Kitt]

I'll sit here with my fingers crossed with you Tim, altho I am not holding too much hope.  The best number I have found of people who survived the collapse was only 20.......

[Hermetically Sealed]

I'll sit here with my fingers crossed with you Tim, altho I am not holding too much hope.  The best number I have found of people who survived the collapse was only 20.......

 

Well, it's historical fiction (even if fairly recent), so much like the Bridgemont, Mark can adjust the numbers to fit plot if needs be. Not to say people should hold their breath, but there is the possibility had he wanted to fudge.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Hermetically Sealed

[MJ85]

As far as historical "fudges" go...there are things much much worse than adding CAP characters as additional survivors.

[Daddydavek]

The chaos is not over.  I don't recall anyone at Hank and Jeanine's home having heard about the the Pentagon or Shanksburg PA.   We still haven't heard from Wade and all those expected later that day.  And the other tower has not yet fallen.  That day seemed endless and I expect that was especially true for those who lived it with loved ones involved.  

[methodwriter85]

      As Mark wrote in reviews, he researched this and no one in the South Tower collapse survived. The last person to get out of the South Tower was the last one to survive. The Miracle Survivors were in Stairwell B in the North Tower.

 

     Anyway....R.I.P. Robbie Hayes 1963 - 2001...

 

     There's a bitter irony in the fact that Robbie was so concerned about aging, and he winds up dying at the age of 38.

Edited September 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[JimCarter]

I can understand why this was hard for you to write Mark.  It was hard for me to read.  Not because it  wasn't written well,but because it was written so well that I felt the emotions almost like I was one of the people involved.  I was just beginning to be a Robbie fan and now it appears I will not get to enjoy getting to know the new Robbie.  Well done Mark and thank goodness more of our little band survived than those that didn't.

 

One thing that I enjoyed and think totally fitting is that the Senator's dick finally killed him.

[Mark Arbour]

I explained Robbie's death here.

[methodwriter85]

 

They do seem to have a higher than normal mortality rate. Maybe there really is a curse, and it's lifted now. I'll have to write a prequel about how some old hag named Zelda put a hex on one of the original Hayes settlers in Claremont. (SMILE)

 

      My mythology is that when Aaron faked his death and was honored as a hero, the pagan gods were enraged and then the curse began. With Robbie's honorable death, the balance has been restored, leaving the new generation, with Matt Carrswold and Gathan Hayes, safe.

 

     Although you got me curious- what happened to Robbie's older brother and sister? The brother went queer for Jesus with his mother, and the sister seemingly disapeared in the mid-1980's, right? I wonder if Robbie has any neices or nephews that haven't been discovered yet.

 

 

One thing that I enjoyed and think totally fitting is that the Senator's dick finally killed him.

 

     It was really fitting. I think Senator Danfield dying adds an interesting quirk- he wasn't really a good guy, and he didn't die heroically, and he didn't even know that he was about to die. And the Senator died just when he and Wade had gotten to good place, where you could even call them friends.

[Daddydavek]

As to the Senator's widow, I think Wade still holds some fairly damning evidence and I suspect he and his Nana would not be afraid to use it should she contemplate a run for the Senator's seat.

[B1ue]

As to the Senator's widow, I think Wade still holds some fairly damning evidence and I suspect he and his Nana would not be afraid to use it should she contemplate a run for the Senator's seat.

To what end, though?

 

I agree, if she ever tried to mess with them directly, Nana and Wade have enough in their Mutual Assured Destruction files to make such moves inadvisable, but that doesn't mean they'll use it for any provocation. If the Senator did somehow survive, and wound up in a hospital, they might use their knowledge to transfer his care to themselves rather than her. They may try to keep Beau out of the line of fire, or use it to make sure their lines of communication with Beau don't become strangulated.

 

But as far as his senatorial seat? She actually is the best candidate to maintain his legacy and all of the political deals that put him into that place, as she was involved in negotiating most of them. She'd be a familiar face to his constituents, colleagues, and staffers, although that last would need to be thoroughly cleaned up. And as I said, with her national visibility as a 9-11 widow, she'd be uniquely useful to the Republican leadership, as she could say anything in either anger or conciliatory tones, and they wouldn't be a contradiction. Well, not an unforgivable one.

 

I don't see any reason they'd want to oppose her on the seat. Not enough to get themselves and their families dragged into the spotlight, at least. I could be wrong, but I don't see them thinking it is an important enough topic for them to fight her on, especially with a tactic they can only use once.

 

I should probably mention that I don't think she'll actually run for anything. She won't have to. It's perfectly acceptable for a congressman's widow to step into their shoes to at least finish off their term, and in her case it would make sense more than most, given the active behind-the-scenes politicking she did on her husband's behalf. She could still turn it down, and Wade and Nana could force her to do so, but I would find it more logical that they'd negotiate with her. Let her take the seat, keep the nation's eye on her for the next several years as an encouragement to being a good person. Meanwhile, they'd not oppose her in trade for complete access to Beau and Maryellen, her agreeing to stop trying to screw with them and their trusts, and Wade would get a job as a staffer once he graduated, in order to keep her honest (and to prevent her from forcing Beau to do the same).

[Westie]

 

I should probably mention that I don't think she'll actually run for anything. She won't have to. It's perfectly acceptable for a congressman's widow to step into their shoes to at least finish off their term, and in her case it would make sense more than most, given the active behind-the-scenes politicking she did on her husband's behalf. She could still turn it down, and Wade and Nana could force her to do so, but I would find it more logical that they'd negotiate with her. Let her take the seat, keep the nation's eye on her for the next several years as an encouragement to being a good person. Meanwhile, they'd not oppose her in trade for complete access to Beau and Maryellen, her agreeing to stop trying to screw with them and their trusts, and Wade would get a job as a staffer once he graduated, in order to keep her honest (and to prevent her from forcing Beau to do the same).

 

Is she technically his Widow, when the divorce had already gone through??

[Kitt]

Is she technically his Widow, when the divorce had already gone through??

Had the divorce been finalized?  I could have been too wrapped up in the lead in to the horrible day but i could have sworn the last we had read Jeff Dansfield told Wade he was going to file, but we haven't seen more on that front have we?

[B1ue]

I thought so too, Kitt. But I may have missed it as well. Plus, we just haven't been focusing on the Danfields lately.

[Daddydavek]

It was my impression that a divorce had not been finalized.   But Elizabeth was removed from the Senator's reelection campaign and they were separated and planning on divorce.  Would a governor appoint her in those circumstances?  The laws vary from state to state (or commonwealth) and I don't know if the governor can set a special election to fill the seat like they did in Massachusetts when Kerry was made Sec. of State. 

 

As to how Wade and Nana could control, I think the fact that money plays a big part and that she is certainly less well off than when she was controlling her children's trusts as well as Nana's estate would be a big factor.  I think Wade and Nana would be active in making Elizabeth's fund raising less than successful.  Politics is all about the money.

 

Finally, I think Wade and Nana are so appalled at Elizabeth that they as a matter of principle would abhor the idea of her becoming a member of the club of 100 and wield that kind of power.  

[centexhairysub]

Okay, this is going to be a long one today...  I actually had to take the day off because I literally was up three-quaters of the night bawling; of course a silver linning to this is I have lost at least ten pounds in water weight....

 

 

I am going to start with the Danfield situation since that is the least emotional for me.  I thought his death was almost comedic relief from the rest of the story; not that it was funny that anyone died in this situation but the way Mark wrote the scene was just priceless.  I think Wade had really forgiven his father and the Senator had forgiven himself.  They worked like hell to repair their relationship, almost as if they knew they did not have time to dawdle.  Wade was in a good place with his father so his death will be hard but he can at least take comfort in the fact that they were in a good place.  Beau was always more of a momma's boy so I don't think the Senator's death will affect him as much; and Mary Ellen is a demon in earthly cowl so it won't bother her at all.  There is no way that the Republican Party would support Elizabeth taking the Senator's seat.  She is way to damaged politically to be a vialbe candidate.  On top of that, the Republicans that were starting to gather strength in Virginia and the south were very much holier than thou and they would find her personally repugnant.  From comments above, several are assuming the divorce that was publically announced has not gone through but do we know this?  If there is no contest to the divorce, and with all the information that the parties have, I can't believe there would be; then a divorce doesn't really take that long.  So instead of a widow, she very well may be the ex-wife of the Senator.  Even if she is a widow though, let's don't forget a few things:  she has been publically ousted in a corruption scandal involving a sweetheart deal with campaign donors, a public scandal with her daughter being beaten, her stint in rehab, then a public play that the rehab did NOT work to cover up later misdeeds.  Even a tearful mea culpa isn't going to get her forgivness from the Republicans, maybe the Democrats but not the Republicans...  It would be complete idiocy for her to even attempt to move into a more direct role in politics.  If her family did not get her than Alexandra still has those lovely pictures and I don't think anything would keep her from releasing them not even her own destruction...

 

 

Of those Hayes's left in Claremont, I think Gathan will be most affected by Robbie's death.  I could really see this pushing Gathan either into the military or something else as a way of honoring Robbie.  Wally and his family will feel this on an emotional level but Brad and his family will make sure that the help that Robbie promised for the next generation of Hayes will be there and the promise kept, plus I am pretty sure that Robbie had a will and made provisions in it.  I would hope that this would open the heart of Robbie's mother and brother but I suspect they will view it as his punishment for being gay...  Maybe the sister will show back up, I don't think there has been any mention of here since at least the mid or late 80's.

 

 

 

Claire and her family, yes even Marie, along with Ace and Cass will all have those special memories of Robbie that they will be able to remembe and treasure. They have a little distance and I don't think they will be as impacted by this as the rest. They will need to be there for those that are going to have a harder time surviving this tragedy.  

 

 

JP is safe and he will make sure something good comes out of this tragedy.  He has probably already forgiven Stef and Brad for how they treated Will.  JP will rally the family around those that are left and help everyone mourn those we lost.  JP is a rock.  I think with JP it will be almost as if he lost a son with Robbie's death.  He took him in when he was still in high school and really helped to raise him.  JP did not always understand Robbie's emotional side or outburst but he loved his loyalty, the love he showed his family, and the way he always fought for what he believed in.

 

 

Stef had already realized his error and is on his way back to his old relationship with JP and Will both.  He will help Brad deal with his loss and in doing so will be able to accept the loss he feels as well.  Robbie was almost like a step-child to Stef.  Sure, he was Brad's partner but Robbie was the person that Greg most closely tied himself to.  Robbie was in some ways an extention of Greg.  Stef will question some of the things that he put Robbie through the last year or so; but will come out realizing that even though they may have fought each other, they cared about to many of the same people not to have stayed close to each other...  They were family...

 

 

Frank is going to be devestated by Robbie's death.  The picture that keeps running in my head is how Barry was after Billy Schulter was killed when he was describes as just hollowed out.  We know that Frank has some health issue and I hope this doesn't make them worse.  I hope that Isidore will be able to help him recover.  Isidore will be sad, a child she helped to raise is gone; but her real touchstone will be Frank's grief.

 

 

Matt will be sad, I think he truly cared about Robbie but I don't think it will be like Wade losing the Senator.  I don't think Matt ever really had that father/son bond with Robbie, to him Robbie was almost more like that favorite uncle or big brother that was always so much fun to be around and do stuff with.  Matt was really almost a fully formed adult before he even knew about Robbie or set out to find him.  Matt already had a father when he found Robbie, what Robbie did was give him a sense of his past and who he was and the freedom to embrace it.  I do worry how much this will wear on his relationship with Wade.  I was never sure after Wade slept with Brad if Matt ever really got over that, or how much it seemed to mean to Wade. 

 

 

Darius is going to have to deal with the fact that he did not try harder to keep Robbie from going back up.  If anything moves Darius to make a real life change, it will be losing Robbie like this.  I thought it was very copacetic how Darius watching the tragedy in the tower as it collapsed and Robbie in the tower both said " Holy Shit " at basically the same time...  Robbie was always the one that Darius was closest to and I think his death will hit him harder than any of the younger generation.  Much like Billy felt lost after Sam left, I worry that Darius will feel lost and disconnected from the family without Robbie there. 

 

 

JJ got a double whammy.  He not only lost Jeanine, who had always been his parent, so to speak, but also Robbie who had taken her place when Jeanine started to have issues.  Even though they were semi-estranged, I think Jeanine was still the most important person in JJ's life.  This is going to take a while for him to process but after everything with his coach and now this; he will either double down on skating and make it his whole life, or he will just walk away from it... 

 

 

Will is going to have to be stonger and more grown up then he ever thought he could be.  He is going to have to deal with his feeling on losing Jeanine, just when they seemed to be getting to a good place; Hank, who Will actually had bonded with and really cared for; and Robbie, who he finally had begun to really appreciate in a more adult setting.  While Will cared for Hank more than anyone else in the family he will have the easiest time dealing with her loss, after all she was only in his life for less than a year.  I think with Jeanine it will be harder.  Will and Jeanine had come so far in repairing their relationship but they still had so much left to work on.  I think Will is going to have some real issues to deal with the unresolved issues between he and Jeanine.  The fact that Jeanine asked Will to take care of Maddy will mean a lot to Will though and that may help some.  I think Will had always resented Robbie some for taking so much of Brad's personal family time from him.  I think some of that was never really resolved but buried just beneath the surface of a lot of their issues.  That being said, Will and Robbie had really begun to form an adult relationship that seemed to work for them much better than the adult/child dynamic that they had labored under for so long.  I think that like Darius, Will is going to have some guilt for not pushing Robbie to stay with them some, but I can see him dealing with it better than Darius is going to.  Will is also going to have to deal with Brad's reaction to all of this.  I can actually see Will being pissed after the fact that Brad kept trying to drag Jeanine into the fight between them.  Brad's behaviour really hindered some of the time that Will and Jeanine had in overcoming their differences.  I am going to be interested in seeing how he copes with this anger on top of the grief.  Plus, Will will work to keep his promise to Robbie to help Brad recover from Robbie's death.  Will is going to have to deal with a couple of auxillary issues as well.  The fact he was in the tower when it was hit, is going to give him a weird cult status when he gets back to school.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out with him; Will doesn't really like to be the center of attention but in this case he really can do nothing about it.  The other issue is I can really see Will being the nexus for how the different parts of the family, the different generations of the family, and even the different families in the CAP universe come together to deal with this tragedy.

 

 

I don't even know where to start with Brad.  Losing a partner is almost like losing a part of your own body; you almost cannot physically or emotionally function in the immediate aftermath.  Add the fact that he and Robbie and been fighting, that he was trying to drag Jeanine into his battle with Will, when they should have been working on repairing their relationship, and his constant need to control everything; this could be a disaster waiting to happen.  What I am hoping is that he will realize after an appropriate period of time is that quilt is debilitating and he will seek help in dealing with it.  I hope that he realizes that his constant need for control is not about protecting his family but is a way to keep himself from getting hurt.  What I hope is that he realizes how much he has to live for and how much love he has to give and how much there is to receive from his family and friends...  Brad is going to try and be there for everyone but what I hope he comes to know is how much he needs everyone to be there for him.  Brad will either try to stay the course himself and come out of this so wounded he will never fully recover; or he will finally grow up and realize he can't be JP and will be stronger for admitting others more fully into his life. 

 

 

Robbie was foolish, proud, whiny, strong, wishy-washy, decisive, stubborn, loyal, and a full mass of contraditions; he was fully human.  In some ways Robbie was the most complex and fully developed of all the characters in the CAP universe.  We all saw something in him that was in ourselves; that either made us connect to him that much more closely or be just that much more pissy about him.  Robbie had the most intense and realistic relationship with all those around him.  He loved his family fiercely, which made the fights just that much more dramatic and powerful.  He fought for what he believed in, even when no one else thought he was right.  Robbie was the grown up in his relationship with Brad because Brad has never really finished growing up.  Robbie was either a pillar of strength or a punching bag depending on what those around him needed.  Robbie was real.  The decision that Robbie made to go back up after Jeanine and Hank was just who he was.  He made sure that Darius, Will, and Maddy were down to the point that they would be able to get out without his help; then he made a decision to go back after the rest of his family because for Robbie blood did not make a family, what was in your heart did.  Robbie was many things but in the end; he was a hero....

[Daddydavek]

Okay, this is going to be a long one today...  I actually had to take the day off because I literally was up three-quaters of the night bawling; of course a silver linning to this is I have lost at least ten pounds in water weight....

 

-   -    -    -   -   -   -   -

 

Robbie was many things but in the end; he was a hero....

 

The truncated post just above made many points that I agree with including the closing statement. 

Edited September 12, 2013 by Daddydavek

[B1ue]

It was my impression that a divorce had not been finalized.   But Elizabeth was removed from the Senator's reelection campaign and they were separated and planning on divorce.  Would a governor appoint her in those circumstances?  The laws vary from state to state (or commonwealth) and I don't know if the governor can set a special election to fill the seat like they did in Massachusetts when Kerry was made Sec. of State. 

 

To answer this specific point, http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/vacancies-in-the-united-states-senate.aspx

 

Virginia law dictates that a governor would fill the vacancy from a list of candidates submitted by the senator's party, and that appointee would serve until the next general election, except if the next statewide election is less than 120 days away, which does not apply in this case. The appointee can choose to run for the seat or not.

 

Also, in this case, whomever wins that election will only be able to serve a truncated four year term, I'm assuming to keep the rotation of Senator seats in tact.

 

So, assuming she was tapped, she'd have to run in a little over a year anyways, and that would likely be a mistake if Wade or Nana hated her. I guess the disconnect is that I haven't read her, or them, as having reached that point yet. By all means, cut her controls, but actively stopping her machinations when they aren't an active threat to them is a line I haven't seen them cross.