9.11

[methodwriter85]

It was with this chapter that I realized that I kind of find Tony boring. Of course, your mileage may vary, but I don't find much that distinguishes Tony from any other hot, macho jock from a rich family that we've had in CAP other than the fact that he's a legacy character, and he has freak-outs similiar to Robbie back in Be Rad. Hot Jeff is way more interesting, and he has a great banter with Will. Tony and Will feel to me like a rip-off of early Brad/Robbie, only I don't find Tony nearly as endearing as Robbie was in 1980.

 

Until they are back in Palo Alto and Tony drops the GF, they are an official couple and Tony is comfortable with the whole hand holding routine in Cali, I am not buyin' it one bit

 

They can't really become an official, open couple because of Will's age (and because Tony is more than 4 years older than him), and because this is the post-Megan's Law era where officials start to really slam down on statutory rape. Will can't exactly hold hands with him at lunch, he can't take Tony to his prom (Will doesn't turn 18 until he's in college), Tony can't tell his soccer pals at Stanford that he's dating a 14-year old, etc etc etc.

 

Talk is cheap but the Grand Hotel De La Minerve ain't, does Tony's family have money?

 

I'm pretty sure Tony's family has stock in Schluter Entreprises (or whatever the hell the conglomerate is called)...it was implied that Tony grew up in a pretty upscale suburb of St. Louis. He doesn't have Crampton/Schluter riches, but I'm guessing that he's probably close to where Matt's family is on the socioeconomic scale, only Matt's family would have more cache as older money.

 

On another note, I can see why you wrote in past forum posts about your trepidation when it comes to covering this time period.  Given that before 9-11 all of those accounting scandals will hit (Enron, WorldCom, etc…), coupled with the economic fallout after 9-11 itself, it’s going to be a rocky few years for anyone involved in finance or corporate governance, even if they are lucky enough to avoid personal tragedy of a much more devastating nature.

 

 

The 2000's were not a pretty decade, that's for damn sure. They were some positives- like the advance of gay rights and all the cool technology that came out, but god this decade was turbulent. There's that stuff, then there's the D.C. sniper, the Iraq War, The Asian Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, Virginia Tech Massacree, the Economic Crisis of 2008-2009, etc etc etc. Should give Mark a lot of material.

Edited April 25, 2013 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

I'm pretty sure Tony's family has stock in Schluter Entreprises (or whatever the hell the conglomerate is called)...it was implied that Tony grew up in a pretty upscale suburb of St. Louis. He doesn't have Crampton/Schluter riches, but I'm guessing that he's probably close to where Matt's family is on the socioeconomic scale, only Matt's family would have more cache as older money.

 

I think it was discussed in Poor Man's Son but I would have to read back to make sure; Stef helped Tony's family after Sam died.  He took some life insurance and maybe some money that he and JP supplied and turned it into enough to keep the family very comfortable and secure.  I don't know that they have any stock in the Schulter/Crampton business but they have enough money thanks to Stef and JP to be more than taken care of.

 

This was discussed when Stef and Gathan went to visit the family in St Louis.  Gathan or someone was wondering about the warm welcome they got, especially Stef in relation to the relationship that JP and Stef both had to Sam and how he died....

Edited April 25, 2013 by centexhairysub

[B1ue]

I guess I am looking at this from a completely different place than either of you...  It seems to me that both of you are actually making my point for me.  B1ue, my take is that Marie owed Will her silence exactly because she is family.  Family is who you involve in situations like that and expect them to keep their mouth shut no matter what, especially this family.  Jeremy, you indicate that Menlo is small and for a secret like that to be kept for that long it probably does mean that Will and Kyle WERE being very discreet.  For it to take that long in such a small social arena for that to come out no one could have been talking about it.  The fact that only when a family member blabbed and was overheard by the third party in the situation was what it took to come out means that more than likely no one knew about it outside of Will, Kyle, Marie, John, and maybe the staff at Escorial...  What are the odds that the staff was talking to someone about a member of the family? 

 

Plus, how did Marie find out?  Do you really think this was something that Will would have told Marie about?  It seems that Marie would have had to have done some serious snooping to find out and then it really is her job to keep the information to herself.  You know from chapter 1 that Will and Marie had fought about the situation but you really don't know how she found out.  I am not sure that Will would have told Marie that he was sleeping with Kyle; it seems more likely that Marie found out Kyle was coming up to see Will twice a week and she made it her business to find out what was going on. 

 

I don't think anyone disagrees that Marie's actions were wrong. I am bringing up the idea that the situation is less black and white than many, including Mark, are seeing it, because while Marie owed will silence, Will owed Marie to not needlessly screw up her life.

 

As for how she found out, and Mark indicated within his reply to my review that there were circumstances, it seems like everyone knew what was going on with Will and Kyle, certainly within the family. Which, if we accept your interpretation of this family, makes sense. Why would WIll even bother to be discreet within the family, if he could count on their absolute silence? So, all Marie probably had to do would be to ask Will, and it might not have even have been that pointed a question. Just casual curiosity that one of her friends is starting to hang out with Will, to which Will brags he's sleeping with him.

 

And that's the root of the problem I have with this situation. Will and Kyle are allowed to do whatever, they are both old enough to be expected to handle consequences short of murder. But Will casually sets Marie's group of friends up for an explosion, and doesn't care, because they aren't supposed to matter at all to anyone. Further, by keeping silent all this time, Marie has been an accomplice in Kyle's indiscretion. But we see no trace of thanks from Will that she kept her mouth shut as long as she did, knowing full well that keeping her mouth shut was pissing her off. No, it's just taken for granted. Like her opinions don't matter.

 

The word picture you painted of Marie snooping around, possibly hanging off a balcony with a camera pointed into Will's window (and John holding her ankles) makes more sense under my interpretation of what the fmaily owes each other. Because, with that, Will did try to be as discreet as he could, never mentioning it until caught with incontrovertable proof, and she just barrelled in where she had no business. And as the consequence of curiosity is living with what you found out, under those circumstances, yeah, Marie should ahve never told anyone anything in any venue, private or public, what was going on or how she felt about it.

[sat8997]

I guess I am looking at this from a completely different place than either of you...  It seems to me that both of you are actually making my point for me.  B1ue, my take is that Marie owed Will her silence exactly because she is family.  Family is who you involve in situations like that and expect them to keep their mouth shut no matter what, especially this family.  Jeremy, you indicate that Menlo is small and for a secret like that to be kept for that long it probably does mean that Will and Kyle WERE being very discreet.  For it to take that long in such a small social arena for that to come out no one could have been talking about it.  The fact that only when a family member blabbed and was overheard by the third party in the situation was what it took to come out means that more than likely no one knew about it outside of Will, Kyle, Marie, John, and maybe the staff at Escorial...  What are the odds that the staff was talking to someone about a member of the family? 

 

Plus, how did Marie find out?  Do you really think this was something that Will would have told Marie about?  It seems that Marie would have had to have done some serious snooping to find out and then it really is her job to keep the information to herself.  You know from chapter 1 that Will and Marie had fought about the situation but you really don't know how she found out.  I am not sure that Will would have told Marie that he was sleeping with Kyle; it seems more likely that Marie found out Kyle was coming up to see Will twice a week and she made it her business to find out what was going on. 

 

I just really believe that especially within the confines of this family and story that family is really everything.  It doesn't matter what another family member does you deal with it inside the family only...  You never take anything outside the family unless the family as a group makes that decision. 

 

Without some insight into why Marie opened her mouth and made sure that Eric knew, we will never really know her motivation.  The fact remains it doesn't matter why she did it; she was wrong...

 

 

What he said.

[methodwriter85]

   Wow. Tim must have loooovvvved this chapter.

 

   I'm not on the "Kill Tony" contingent, but the bit about how Will compared Tony's smile to Robbie's creeped me out a little bit. I'm sorry, it's just weird to date people that remind you of your parents.

[Mark Arbour]

   Wow. Tim must have loooovvvved this chapter.

 

   I'm not on the "Kill Tony" contingent, but the bit about how Will compared Tony's smile to Robbie's creeped me out a little bit. I'm sorry, it's just weird to date people that remind you of your parents.

 

I think it was less about that, but more about Will feeling someone have the same kind of hold over him.  Those gestures aren't unique, and they really only work and have meaning if you are into the other person.  

[mmike1969]

Wow. Tim must have loooovvvved this chapter.

 

I'm not on the "Kill Tony" contingent, but the bit about how Will compared Tony's smile to Robbie's creeped me out a little bit. I'm sorry, it's just weird to date people that remind you of your parents.

But brad hooking up with Robbie ) that looks exactly like your dead brother ) is not weird?

[methodwriter85]

But brad hooking up with Robbie ) that looks exactly like your dead brother ) is not weird?

 

Damn. That is an extremely good point.

 

I think I'm just being nitpicky now that I realize that I'm totally Team Hot Jeff when it comes to Will. Tony's a nice guy but I think Will has this banter with Jeff that makes me ship them instead. I wonder if Mark will try chem-testing Tony with other guys in the saga- Gathan could be interesting.

 

As for hating Tony...I can't really hate on the guy or wish him dead like Tim. Mark's never going to kill Tony off. He's a legacy character, and after the Jeff/Billy debacle Mark has been loathe to kill off legacy characters. And with this being a soap, legacy characters are pretty important to have. I'm fine with Tony in general- I just don't find him a good fit for Will. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Edited April 29, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Westie]

I'm totally Team Hot Jeff when it comes to Will. 

 

Seriously, theres a team for that ? 

[PrivateTim]

   Wow. Tim must have loooovvvved this chapter.

 

Naw, 'cuz it'll just be that much better when Tony's bites it......

 

I've known guys who have been 'in 'n out', 'gay not gay' so many times they had to install a revolving door on their closets.

 

We will see what happens when Tony dumps Dana (if he actually does/can) and what happens when they are back in Palo Alto and Tony has to come to terms with being out to friends on campus (roommates, etc who we have not seen yet). If Tony has any ideas about NOT being open on campus, I am sure Dana will take care of that if Tony actually does dump her.

 

I will grant that the character Tony is marvelous vehicle for Mr. Arbour to present drama and POVs through, but I still think he is a worthless c*!t.

[methodwriter85]

Naw, 'cuz it'll just be that much better when Tony's bites it......

 

Dude, I'm telling you- I really don't think Tony's going anywhere. He's a legacy character, and on a soap, legacy characters are rarely killed off. (Unless you were a Quartermaine on General Hospital.) The last time Mark killed off a legacy character was Billy in Be Rad. More importantly, Tony is the legacy of a character that was pretty popular who had a tragic end, giving Tony "demons" that will have long-term drama potential to them. Tony's also supposed to be representative of the classic closetcase. We've got Will, who represents the modern-day gay guy who was openly gay in middle school and has never been in the closet, and we've got Gathan who represents the guy who is sexually ambigious and is utterly comfortable with that. It stands to reason that Mark wants to balance that out with the narrative of the screaming closet case, and that's what he's done with Tony.

 

If Tony and Will aren't married by 2013, I'll be shocked. It's classic soap with a modern twist to have two legacy characters (especially if they're the legacy of a character that had a tragic end) end up together. Seriously, Tony is not going anywhere. Even when he finishes Stanford, I'm sure Mark will come up with a reason to keep him in California. All the signs are there that Tony is supposed to be a long-term, tent-pole character for the rising generation, who is meant to "rise against" the demons that his father saddled him with. I'd really try to at least get used to him.

 

I will grant though that I find Tony in terms of his personality pretty bland. If it weren't for his character backstory, he'd be basically just another hot masculine friendly jock type. He doesn't have much of a spine, and I think Will's had much more interesting love interests.

Edited April 29, 2013 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

Dude, I'm telling you- I really don't think Tony's going anywhere. He's a legacy character, and on a soap, legacy characters are rarely killed off. (Unless you were a Quartermaine on General Hospital.) The last time Mark killed off a legacy character was Billy in Be Rad. More importantly, Tony is the legacy of a character that was pretty popular who had a tragic end, giving Tony "demons" that will have long-term drama potential to them. Tony's also supposed to be representative of the classic closetcase. We've got Will, who represents the modern-day gay guy who was openly gay in middle school and has never been in the closet, and we've got Gathan who represents the guy who is sexually ambigious and is utterly comfortable with that. It stands to reason that Mark wants to balance that out with the narrative of the screaming closet case, and that's what he's done with Tony.

 

If Tony and Will aren't married by 2013, I'll be shocked. It's classic soap with a modern twist to have two legacy characters (especially if they're the legacy of a character that had a tragic end) end up together. Seriously, Tony is not going anywhere. Even when he finishes Stanford, I'm sure Mark will come up with a reason to keep him in California. All the signs are there that Tony is supposed to be a long-term, tent-pole character for the rising generation, who is meant to "rise against" the demons that his father saddled him with. I'd really try to at least get used to him.

 

I will grant though that I find Tony in terms of his personality pretty bland. If it weren't for his character backstory, he'd be basically just another hot masculine friendly jock type. He doesn't have much of a spine, and I think Will's had much more interesting love interests.

 

I'll agree that I don't think it's likely that he'll be killed off anytime soon. The only reason I could see for that would be if Mark really wants to match Will up with someone else very soon. I don't get that vibe, and I strongly agree that it'd be a waste to kill him off, given what is shown that he has to overcome.

 

That said, Will and Tony married to each other by 2013?? Quite a bit of time has gotta pass before I'll even be close to sold on that one.

 

And this last one may be just me...but I don't even get a "jock type" vibe from Tony. Muscular, obviously, but doesn't one have to have even a slight inclination to some kind of sport in order to be a jock type? Unless I've missed something, we haven't seen even a slight inclination of that with Tony. I'm considering more than just the body type here...I'm also taking into account the attitude, the...personality, that you're saying Tony doesn't really have much of.

[methodwriter85]

    He's a soccer player that Mark has described as having the maschimo of the typical Italian male jock.

 

    Tony's status as a legacy character does make him someone I'd be reluctant to kill off, though. You can't underestimate the importance of having legacy characters on a soap. Soaps allow for the storytelling to expand over decades, and Mark has simulated that ability by having his soap fictionally span over 50 years. He can draw from the wealth of the content of the previous stories while at the same time, not having to wait in real-time to do so.

 

    I'm totally looking forward to reading about La Danfield's head exploding when Riley and Madison start dating circa 2017. Dear god, she'll be pissed.

Edited April 30, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Random wild prediction: Remember when everyone had a minor freak out over the possiblity that Will might knock Rain up? If I had to pick where lightning will actually strike next, I'm guessing Tony. It would squarely pit all of his values against all of his goals, and give him the excuse he seems to be looking for to stay in the closet. And may well be the deal breaker for Will, as well.

 

Otherwise, yeah. Tony and Will have wedding bells in their future, if for no other reason than WIll, Brad, and Stef would probably set the whole thing up and order Tony down the aisle without actually consulting Tony's wishes on the matter.

 

As far as Team Hot Jeff, him and Tony are basically interchangable to me as actors in Will's life. For one, aren't they both the same age? Anyways, I think they're both just placeholders until WIll's age peers catch up with him in maturity, and I am ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

 

Including the wedding, if it comes to that.

[centexhairysub]

I am so not into Team Whomever...

 

I thought the whole chapter was sort of sweet, really not like a Arbour chapter at all...  LOL...  I just knew the boyfriend was going to be Berto, but then I think most people at least suspected that was coming.  I thought that Will handled the situation really well.  I was a little suprised that Tony didn't get a little more bent out of shape than he did but that blow up could be one pole dance away...

 

I have to think that at least Tony's mother has some idea that her son might be gay...  After all, she did marry and live with Sam; she had to pick up some residual level of gaydar.  I am not sure his coming out to his family will be as big of a deal as coming out to the rest of world for him. 

 

I am not sure how the situation with Dana will resolve itself.  I have trouble seeing it come off smoothly.  Plus, it isn't like Tony and Will can run around letting everyone know about the relationship; Tony would be on a one way ticket to sex offender registery if they did...

 

Not sure where you are taking us, Mark, but always there for the ride...

[Rosenkrantz]

God, I hope they don't get married. They'd be an awful long term couple, at least in my mind. Tony would be a complete doormat to Will's stronger and more dominant personality, which Will would hate. He needs someone that can challenge him a bit, and bring him back down from on high when he gets a little too righteously angry. I can't imagine Tony doing that at all. He'd just freak out and hide, or refuse to get involved. I hope that Tony is the guy that cheats on Will and they they have a massive breakup and he ultimately fades to the background. 

 

Since Method's so focused on him being a legacy character, he might be, but so is Jeff. And Jeff would be a much better match for Will. He can be a sounding board for Will, which again, I don't see Tony doing, and Jeff is someone that will be there for Will, no matter what happens. I imagine that if something big happened and Will's life suddenly took a turn for the worse, Tony would beat feet the other way. Jeff would stick around and keep Will going, no matter what it took. 

[methodwriter85]

God, I hope they don't get married. They'd be an awful long term couple, at least in my mind. Tony would be a complete doormat to Will's stronger and more dominant personality, which Will would hate. He needs someone that can challenge him a bit, and bring him back down from on high when he gets a little too righteously angry. I can't imagine Tony doing that at all. He'd just freak out and hide, or refuse to get involved. I hope that Tony is the guy that cheats on Will and they they have a massive breakup and he ultimately fades to the background. 

 

Since Method's so focused on him being a legacy character, he might be, but so is Jeff. And Jeff would be a much better match for Will. He can be a sounding board for Will, which again, I don't see Tony doing, and Jeff is someone that will be there for Will, no matter what happens. I imagine that if something big happened and Will's life suddenly took a turn for the worse, Tony would beat feet the other way. Jeff would stick around and keep Will going, no matter what it took. 

 

Thank for putting into words why I'm preferring someone like Jeff for Will over someone like Tony for Will. Will needs someone that can challenge him, and Tony so far has consistently shown that he doesn't have much of a backbone, while Jeff has shown that he's a pretty tenacious survivor type.

 

Of course, to be fair to Tony, other than his father's death when he was 3, Tony grew up in a fairly sheltered existence as an affluent guy in a tony suburb who's never experienced want or hunger the way Jeff has. It stands to reason that Jeff would have a much stronger backbone- if he didn't, Jeff probably wouldn't have lasted 6 months after getting kicked out.

 

I never even thought of the fact that Jeff actually is a legacy character- good point.

 

Otherwise, yeah. Tony and Will have wedding bells in their future, if for no other reason than WIll, Brad, and Stef would probably set the whole thing up and order Tony down the aisle without actually consulting Tony's wishes on the matter.

 

 

OMG, you just made me think of the hilarious Katy Perry video from late 2008, Hot N Cold.

 

 

 

It's going to be a very long time from now, but god- I can't wait to get into the emergence of Katy Perry and Lady Gaga in the late 2000's. Music got fun again in '08.

Edited April 30, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Canuk]

 

 

, but god- I can't wait to get into the emergence of Katy Perry and Lady Gaga in the late 2000's. Music got fun again in '08.

 

that it did!!

[Mari]

The idea of Stef, Brad and Will dragging Tony down the aisle doesn't seem all that farfetched I think Will would be better off with Jeff but for now Tony works.

[Henson]

Ummm...  The kid is in his mid-teens.  He's not even really in high school yet, not really.  

 

I had a lot of really incredibly close friends when I was 14.  Most of them, I don't even know where they live now.

 

How about y'all let him just date and screw for a while, huh?

[methodwriter85]

How about y'all let him just date and screw for a while, huh?

 

Of course. We're just looking way down the road, and considering a soap's propensity to put legacy characters together. After all, Brad did end up with Robbie, and they are both legacy characters. Having Brad's son and Brad's ex-stepfather's son end up married would be a modern twist on a classic soap trope, one I could see being hard for Mark to resist doing. It's probably a big part of the reason why the pairing happened in the first place.

 

It's similiar to why people were kinda digging the idea of Brad's son and Jack's son becoming a couple...that deal kind of crashed and burned, but I'm not totally counting John out. He's only 13. I figure when the dude catches up to Will's maturity level, it might be interesting to explore that again.

 

I think on Days of Our Lives, they're actually having a gay legacy romance between Will Brady and Sonny Kiriakis- I think it's the first of its kind, which is pretty cool.

 

Legacy romances can be pretty fun if done well...it's why I'm glad that Mark is apparently not having Riley and Madison raised as siblings, so it's possible to eventually hook them up if Mark keeps on doing CAP for a very long time. It's also why I'm glad Mark didn't give both Tiffany and Jeanine twins and make Robbie and Brad fathers again...it would have been too many kids on the canvas who are the same age and related to each other.

Edited April 30, 2013 by methodwriter85

[sat8997]

 

How about y'all let him just date and screw for a while, huh?

 

But...but...then Jeremy wouldn't be able to say 'legacy character' forty-two freaking times inside of three posts!

[methodwriter85]

But...but...then Jeremy wouldn't be able to say 'legacy character' forty-two freaking times inside of three posts!

 

I think with the online revival of One Life to Live and All My Children, legacy soap characters are on my mind right now. I do think it's cool that because it's a fictional 50-year span and not a real one, Mark doesn't have to wait in real-time to reap his own legacy characters on his soap.

Edited April 30, 2013 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

I do think it's cool that because it's a fictional 50-year span and not a real one, Mark doesn't have to wait in real-time to reap his own legacy characters on his soap.

 

Technically, it's not even a 40-year span. Yet. Not until 2002 gets written. Technically, he's free to stop at any point he wants, even if that means not reaching a year-span of X - not that he would do so lightly.

[methodwriter85]

Technically, it's not even a 40-year span. Yet. Not until 2002 gets written. Technically, he's free to stop at any point he wants, even if that means not reaching a year-span of X - not that he would do so lightly.

 

Well, we got The Box, which was basically one long flashback to the 1940's...that's why I said more of a 50-year span.