9.11

[Kitt]

Then takes makes him a douchebag, one of the 10%

 

 

What is the freaking question?????? You still haven't said TWICE now!

I agree- it DOES make him a douchebag. Like it or not people like that do exist in the world and we have to hope not to have too many come into our own lives and do our damnedest not to be like them.

 

And my apologies - when you quoted the question I thought you understood. The question was  "If you were on the outs with someone in your family and they showed up without any warning would you be comfortable with it?"  After that you asked what made me think Zach was on the outs with his family and I explained what was behind the thought. 

 

And in case you are wondering what the first instance of your not answering me was, that was back a few pages when we were discussing if Will can or will learn from his mistakes. I will quote the whole section and bold the specific question for you.

 

How can he learn from his "mistakes", if he doesn't see them as such?   Simple - remember while it may be several weeks in our time - in Cap time this all went on in a matter of a couple days. Funeral, car, dinner making Austin uncomfortable and blow up over the car after, then off to Hawaii all in under a week.

Will may not see it as a mistake YET.  Have you discovered all your mistakes in life within minutes, or even hours of having made them? Sometimes it takes a while to come back and bite you in the ass, and some mistakes bite harder than others,

 

Now, if you would prefer not to answer, I can respect that. Just say so.

[PrivateTim]

And my apologies - when you quoted the question I thought you understood. The question was  "If you were on the outs with someone in your family and they showed up without any warning would you be comfortable with it?"  After that you asked what made me think Zach was on the outs with his family and I explained what was behind the thought. 

 

And in case you are wondering what the first instance of your not answering me was, that was back a few pages when we were discussing if Will can or will learn from his mistakes. I will quote the whole section and bold the specific question for you.

 

How can he learn from his "mistakes", if he doesn't see them as such?   Simple - remember while it may be several weeks in our time - in Cap time this all went on in a matter of a couple days. Funeral, car, dinner making Austin uncomfortable and blow up over the car after, then off to Hawaii all in under a week.

Will may not see it as a mistake YET.  Have you discovered all your mistakes in life within minutes, or even hours of having made them? Sometimes it takes a while to come back and bite you in the ass, and some mistakes bite harder than others,

 

Now, if you would prefer not to answer, I can respect that. Just say so.

 

I think the section I quoted showed pretty clearly Zach is not on the outs at all with Wally & Clara. What text can you point to that would lead you to believe he was? Now if Will had said, "Gathan is coming", okay I could see that, but it seems the only person in the family Zach has an issue with is Gathan.

 

Zach didn't get sent away to school by Wally & Clara, Zach chose to go away because he got the scholarship to a school where he could get recognition and get away from bad influences in his life.

 

As to the other quote, I took it as a rhetorical question because the question was so general and the general answer is obviously, no, you don't and I haven't recognized ALL my mistakes within minutes or even hours.

 

BUT, that isn't the case here. If I did something and within hours my two grandfathers, my father, my cousin and other family members were pointing out the mistake and the implications of the act I would stop and ponder it. I wouldn't go into passive aggressive attack mode, deflect off me, call the people I had wronged and disrespected idiots and blame them for the actions I took. Being 16 and not having a car doesn't mean you are trapped and being controlled.

 

Will was a victim of his own logic. He says basically that Zach hates being "controlled" by the family in NJ and it is because Zach doesn't have a car that the family can control him.

 

1) Zach didn't have a car in Claremont, but Wally & Clara clearly didn't and couldn't control him

2) MOST 16 year olds do not have cars and yet manage to get around and are not captives in their homes

 

So yes, Will clearly had the opportunity to reflect on his mistake, but even after it was brought up to him I still don't think he has called Wally & Clara to apologize for stepping all over their prerogatives as parents. Will is free to think they are idiots and don't know how to raise kids, but it isn't his place to interfere.

[GLH]

So yes, Will clearly had the opportunity to reflect on his mistake, but even after it was brought up to him I still don't think he has called Wally & Clara to apologize for stepping all over their prerogatives as parents. Will is free to think they are idiots and don't know how to raise kids, but it isn't his place to interfere.

 

If I were a betting person, I'd wager that Will does come to the realization of what he did at some point and will apologize while in the company of Wally and Clara.  Given the lapse of time, I think to apologize otherwise would not adequately convey the sincerity of a 'face-to-face'.

[PrivateTim]

If I were a betting person, I'd wager that Will does come to the realization of what he did at some point and will apologize while in the company of Wally and Clara.  Given the lapse of time, I think to apologize otherwise would not adequately convey the sincerity of a 'face-to-face'.

 

I think so too. I just wanted to be on the record before this next chapter

[PrivateTim]

From my review of the newest chapter.

 

 

Now, down to business. Can I just say what a complete, immature fucking little asshole Will is? Besides being a snob (he admits he is one, but comforts himself with the thought he isn't as bad as JJ) he is rude, thoughtless and arrogant. He has that special brand of arrogance reserved for teen boys who think they know better than more experienced, older people.

 

Less than a month ago (Sept.28) he hated Zach, but a couple of good lays and within 3 days they are bestest buddies and Will buys him a car. Four weeks of talking on the phone, half of which is phone sex, doesn't give Will more knowledge about Zach than the man who raised him the past 16 years. Knowing what class Zach likes better or which host parent he likes better (as if a teen boy would talk to his father about that) isn't the measure.

 

Will still doesn't understand he did wrong to Wally and Clara. A simple apology to Wally and Clara when Wally brought it up would have diffused the whole situation, but instead Will acts as if it is Wally in the wrong and Will gets mad and ruder. Is that how Tonto would have handled the situation? How JP would have? Isidore? Will was all self-righteous about Isidore & Claire being snobs, then gave the family shit about making Austin feel unwelcome, but this is how he treats Wally and Clara? Two good people who raised four kids of their own and took in Ella and Gathan from their awful home life? These are the people whose parenting skills Will is questioning?

 

Someone needs to straighten the brat out.

[Mark Arbour]

From my review of the newest chapter.

 

 

Now, down to business. Can I just say what a complete, immature fucking little asshole Will is? Besides being a snob (he admits he is one, but comforts himself with the thought he isn't as bad as JJ) he is rude, thoughtless and arrogant. He has that special brand of arrogance reserved for teen boys who think they know better than more experienced, older people.

 

Less than a month ago (Sept.28) he hated Zach, but a couple of good lays and within 3 days they are bestest buddies and Will buys him a car. Four weeks of talking on the phone, half of which is phone sex, doesn't give Will more knowledge about Zach than the man who raised him the past 16 years. Knowing what class Zach likes better or which host parent he likes better (as if a teen boy would talk to his father about that) isn't the measure.

 

Will still doesn't understand he did wrong to Wally and Clara. A simple apology to Wally and Clara when Wally brought it up would have diffused the whole situation, but instead Will acts as if it is Wally in the wrong and Will gets mad and ruder. Is that how Tonto would have handled the situation? How JP would have? Isidore? Will was all self-righteous about Isidore & Claire being snobs, then gave the family shit about making Austin feel unwelcome, but this is how he treats Wally and Clara? Two good people who raised four kids of their own and took in Ella and Gathan from their awful home life? These are the people whose parenting skills Will is questioning?

 

Someone needs to straighten the brat out.

 

As I mentioned in my response to your review, you and I have a fundamental disagreement over the rights and obligations of parents in this situation, and we've discussed that in the past, so I'm going to pretty much avoid diving back into that discussion again.

 

Wally is the kind of father who runs a pretty tight ship, based on a very hierarchical/authoritarian model.  That he's done well with the kids they've raised so far is still up for debate, as we haven't seen any of them but Gathan get on a really solid track.  That he stepped in to raise the sons (and daughter) of his brothers gets him major kudos.  But the dynamic between Wally and Clara and their own kids (Zach and Zeke) and the others is different, as we saw in Poor Man's Son.  And there are a lot more to their dynamics than we're probably seeing here.  

 

Based on the interaction between Will and Wally, I doubt that anything Will would have done regarding the car would have changed their minds, or made them even consider that Zach deserved one.  If I were Zach, I would interpret their actions in the same way, as Wally and Clara not having any confidence in me, and not recognizing any of my achievements.  You see Will as a disrespectful brat (which may be true), but he was also calling Wally on slicing Zach off at the knees, and at having a blatant double-standard when it comes to Zach and Gathan.  That has to absolutely burn in Zach's psyche. 

 

And if Wally and Clara were going to win the parent of the year award, they would know all those things Will called them on, simply because Zach isn't living with them.  He's living with a host family, and that means they trusted this family with their son (whom they don't seem to trust at all).  They should be very involved in making sure he's happy there, he likes his host family and his school, etc.  I've actually done this (been a host parent) and I've seen what kind of crap these kids have to put up with.  Some are lucky, others aren't.  But if you're doing your job as a parent, that's one thing you're on top of.  And they should have taken some of Robbie's money and gone out to visit him long before this, to make sure he was OK.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[Gene Splicer PHD]

Tim:

 

I get it now, it's finally coming clear: YOU DONT LIKE WILL. Guess what? I don't like him very much either, but I don't feel the compulsion to bring it up all the damn time, it's not my story to tell nor is it my place to dictate to Mark how the character should act or be portrayed. I don't like JJ much either. I voiced my opinion about him, got shat on, and now I get it: if I keep harping on the board or at Mark, it's not going to matter even a LITTLE bit about what happens with these characters. And after all, they're fake people, they don't exist, they're not real. They're just not worth my ire. And frankly, I just got ignored for my whining. I learned that it's not worth the effort.

 

If you don't like the direction of the story, or think the characters are that insufferable, don't read the story. Or read it, and get all mad about how your morality isn't being applied to fake people, and get a headache. Your call.

 

I get your distaste, and as much as I like to see your interactions here, it's getting a little old. It may even be a little unhealthy for you to resent these fictional people as much as you do, but that's your deal. Will's not gonna go to church, neither are any of the characters, no one in the story is going to suddenly get your moral compass and adopt it as their own.

I realize I'm completely powerless to stop your complaints, so hey, have a great new year and all that.

 

Thanks.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Gene Splicer PHD

[Daddydavek]

There was a great quote in the review of chapter 62 by StoriReder:

 

Regardless of where things actually go with Will and Zach, I have a feeling that things are not going to be as clear cut as Will seeing the truth of Zach, and then the world rewarding him for his insight. The Karmic Wheel of the CAP saga is a waterwheel, and it is too firmly anchored in the grand river of drama for Will to get off that easily. I foresee much in the way of misinterpretations, misunderstandings, extreme reactions and hurt feelings coming down said river of drama.

 

Obviously, from the discussion in the forum, different readers have very different perspectives and opinions about Will.  That Mark is capable of engendering such heated discussion in fictional characters is a talent but perhaps the ongoing discussion misses the point that StoriReder alludes to:  The Karmic Wheel of the CAP saga is a waterwheel.   AND it is too firmly anchored in the grand river of drama.....  

 

In my humble opinion, I love the symbolism and insight those line represent as they truly do encapsulate how I am mesmerized by the whole saga.  

Edited December 30, 2013 by Daddydavek

[rjo]

I understand in the past I have been pro Will, and maybe pushed his mistakes aside, marked them up to him growing, learning, can we say maturing. We first saw Zach through Gathan's eyes. Because of that we have thought of him as evil  and manipulitive. What changes things is his transformation, is it real or part of the act? At the end of the chapter Zach said Will was the only one who had his back. In comparision, Will had a long list of people who has his. It is sad only Will cames up. Either that is a lie or it tells us alot of the situation Zach is living with. Zach has been type cast as a trouble makern and is put down by his parents. He has no where else to go. Will has a chance to be a real friend, not just a playmate. I can't help but thinking about Fred Hayes and how Aaron's loss changed him. Generations were effected. Wally was part of the group who attacked Robbie in high school. Fred want Aaron to have a better life, to go to college. Later he didn't want Jeff in college. Could Wally be effected by this also?  It sounds like of the six kids  Clara and Wally raised only three are bound or in college. Is he jealous that they have the ability he doesn't. If Zach was so much trouble, why would they sent away?  Do they know this host family? Why have not come to visit him? Now the harder questions. Do they really care about Zach? Care about his needs? As Will pointed out, do they really care, or did they just want to ship the problem out of town. Is that the best way of taking care of a problem? it is time for Brad to step up and raise Robbie extended family. If Robbie has still around, what would he had done? I think we can see the beginnigs of it. I bet he set up the host family for Zach. Robbie saw what Zach could become with help, his help. Will has it figured out. Will Brad?

Edited December 30, 2013 by rjo

[Mark Arbour]

if I keep harping on the board or at Mark, it's not going to matter even a LITTLE bit about what happens with these characters.

 

Actually, reader feedback does have an impact on the story. 

 

Those readers who understand the characters, and are able to identify when they're acting out of character, are like an automatic correction mechanism for me.  Those readers who want me to build the characters and the stories to suit their own views, or what they want, usually end up disappointed. 

[Gene Splicer PHD]

Actually, reader feedback does have an impact on the story. 

 

Those readers who understand the characters, and are able to identify when they're acting out of character, are like an automatic correction mechanism for me.  Those readers who want me to build the characters and the stories to suit their own views, or what they want, usually end up disappointed. 

Oh sure, of course. You're one of the best authors around for listening to reader feedback. But ultimately, things like story direction and character development/personality traits are all yours, as you say. My dislike of a character or their trajectory doesn't entitle me to complain about it other than maybe an occasional complaint. Hearing the same complaints, over and over, gets tiresome. That's what I was venting about - it's not the story that's the problem, its the constantly-complaining-about-the-same-things-repeatedly that got my neck up.

 

And I do understand Tim's point of view and agree with some of it, but there's only so much you can do. That's all I was trying to say.

[methodwriter85]

 

That he's done well with the kids they've raised so far is still up for debate, as we haven't seen any of them but Gathan get on a really solid track.

 

    I have to disagree with that- Ella got into either NYU or FIT (I think it's FIT, but it could be NYU), and I doubt she could have gotten there if her grades from the first three years of high school weren't good, Zeke is knocking out his general requirements at Claremont Institute of Technology (I'm assuming they're a junior college), and either Brent or Trent has plans to start a garage. (One of them is like only 12 or something, right?) Zach was troubled and they're not perfect, but given the environment and the depressed opportunities of 1990's Claremont, they all come off as doing pretty well.  None of them seem like they're in gangs or anything like that.

 

     I think you're approaching "solid track" with a white-collar mindset view of success...the idea of skipping college and doing a trade instead seems like a failure, but I don't really agree with that. Not everyone is suited for college, and high-skilled mechanics can make pretty good money.

 

    As for the other stuff...I'll admit something: Mark and I have come to blows sometimes over character development and direction, especially when he was writing Paternity. The lesson? I learned to relax a bit and let Mark write the story. I was NOT happy with the JJ Story, to the point I couldn't sleep, but you know what? The story turned out way better than the suggestion I had for it, and that definitely underscored the point that you need to let the author write the story and the characters.

 

    Finally, a random note- I freakin' love that Zach has a Dodge Durango. His car was produced at the Chrysler Plant in Newark, Delaware when I was a teenager. Pretty funny. It's cool having these characters in New Jersey and closer to my neck of the woods.

[Kitt]

 

 

     I think you're approaching "solid track" with a white-collar mindset view of success...the idea of skipping college and doing a trade instead seems like a failure, but I don't really agree with that. Not everyone is suited for college, and high-skilled mechanics can make pretty good money.

 

. It's cool having these characters in New Jersey and closer to my neck of the woods.

I agree Jeremy - someone has to repair your car, keep your furnace running properly, fix your plumbing, and any one of a thousand other "blue collar" occupations. Everyone can't start as a rent boy and end up running a multi-million dollar adventure capital firm.

 

I also agree its fun having some of the action in my back yard so to speak. While taking care of business on Friday I found myself close to Ramsay and decided to go looking for Don Bosco. I never found it but it was fun looking. Funny thing though...never did see a NJT bus the whole time I was in the area.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Kitt

[methodwriter85]

 

I also agree its fun having some of the action in my back yard so to speak. While taking care of business on Friday I found myself close to Ramsay and decided to go looking for Don Bosco. I never found it but it was fun looking. Funny thing though...never did see a NJT bus the whole time I was in the area.

 

   It's fun when Mark adds "local" (to myself) touches in the story...like in CAP, when he had Peter Gordon and JP Crampton spending a weekend down in the Nor'Easter ravaged Rehoboth Beach. Or in Be Rad, when he added in the 1980 World Series that the Phillies won, or the having Robbie be an Eagles fan.

 

    I definitely hope we'll meet Johnny Weir at some point, who was trained at the University of Delaware Skating Club. It was quite a big deal when he went to the Olympics. Him and JJ should have the fur flying. It'd also be cool to see them react to Philadelphia, which does have a bit of a renaissance in this decade.

 

    It'd also be cool to have a character rooting for the Baltimore Ravens at the 2012 Super Bowl against the 49ers, but I'm not sure that's likely because Mark was pretty unhappy about the outcome of that game.

Edited December 31, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

LOL - That's easy to handle - he just has to make the Ravens fan someone he doesn't care much for. He's got 10 years of story to cover first though!

[PrivateTim]

As I mentioned in my response to your review, you and I have a fundamental disagreement over the rights and obligations of parents in this situation, and we've discussed that in the past, so I'm going to pretty much avoid diving back into that discussion again.

 

Wally is the kind of father who runs a pretty tight ship, based on a very hierarchical/authoritarian model.  That he's done well with the kids they've raised so far is still up for debate, as we haven't seen any of them but Gathan get on a really solid track.  That he stepped in to raise the sons (and daughter) of his brothers gets him major kudos.  But the dynamic between Wally and Clara and their own kids (Zach and Zeke) and the others is different, as we saw in Poor Man's Son.  And there are a lot more to their dynamics than we're probably seeing here.  

 

Based on the interaction between Will and Wally, I doubt that anything Will would have done regarding the car would have changed their minds, or made them even consider that Zach deserved one.  If I were Zach, I would interpret their actions in the same way, as Wally and Clara not having any confidence in me, and not recognizing any of my achievements.  You see Will as a disrespectful brat (which may be true), but he was also calling Wally on slicing Zach off at the knees, and at having a blatant double-standard when it comes to Zach and Gathan.  That has to absolutely burn in Zach's psyche. 

 

And if Wally and Clara were going to win the parent of the year award, they would know all those things Will called them on, simply because Zach isn't living with them.  He's living with a host family, and that means they trusted this family with their son (whom they don't seem to trust at all).  They should be very involved in making sure he's happy there, he likes his host family and his school, etc.  I've actually done this (been a host parent) and I've seen what kind of crap these kids have to put up with.  Some are lucky, others aren't.  But if you're doing your job as a parent, that's one thing you're on top of.  And they should have taken some of Robbie's money and gone out to visit him long before this, to make sure he was OK.

 

I am struggling to see Zach's "accomplishments". Since Zach isn't a main character we don't know the exact circumstances under which he wound up at Don Bosco, but it "happened pretty quickly" which to me means it happened during summer which means two or three months ago? And before that Zach admits he was doing steroids, "partying like a rock star" and screwing anything that moved. So through the content provided in the story he has been this changed person now for three months? He doesn't even have his first semester grades yet so what has he accomplished in the past few months that warrants the reward of a car for the "changed person" he is now? Wally & Clara have nothing to judge the new and improved Zach on yet.

 

As to visiting Zach. Wally is a blue collar guy with a Midwest blue collar mentality. Do we even know if Wally and Clara know how to travel? How to book flights into Newark, get a rental car, etc? Guys like Wally don't like taking days off work to play around (which is how I think he would view taking time off work to go see Zach play) because they feel it lets down fellow workers.

 

Yes Wally might have old fashioned ideas like children shouldn't drink and do drugs, that they ought to obey their parents and that they ought to have to work for things they get, but that doesn't give someone, who has really known Zach less than a month, the right to interfere in the relationship.

 

 

Tim:

 

I get it now, it's finally coming clear: YOU DONT LIKE WILL. Guess what? I don't like him very much either, but I don't feel the compulsion to bring it up all the damn time, it's not my story to tell nor is it my place to dictate to Mark how the character should act or be portrayed. I don't like JJ much either. I voiced my opinion about him, got shat on, and now I get it: if I keep harping on the board or at Mark, it's not going to matter even a LITTLE bit about what happens with these characters. And after all, they're fake people, they don't exist, they're not real. They're just not worth my ire. And frankly, I just got ignored for my whining. I learned that it's not worth the effort.

 

I like Will, he is still my favorite character, but the way he has been portrayed in the story recently reminds me of some of the kids and their families that I have to interact with in my professional life; rich kids and popular actors who have no grasp of reality, are enabled by their adult handlers, think the rules of common courtesy and respect don't apply to them and look down on people who aren't them.

 

My comments were not so much directed at Mark since there is always a method to his madness, but at the "Saint Will" supporters who think Will is the second coming of Tonto, that he is this wise, sage 15 year old who is always smarter than any adult in the room and understands everyone and everything perfectly and only he has the clarity of thought to know the exact right thing to do in every situation.

 

I enjoy the banter of the forums, it is a virtual book club where we sit down and talk through the story with Mark playing the part of Oprah. Of course they are fake people, but I was just as passionate in my dislike for Holden Caulfield and said so in my 10th grade English class when all my classmates loved him.

 

I understand in the past I have been pro Will, and maybe pushed his mistakes aside, marked them up to him growing, learning, can we say maturing. We first saw Zach through Gathan's eyes. Because of that we have thought of him as evil  and manipulitive. What changes things is his transformation, is it real or part of the act? At the end of the chapter Zach said Will was the only one who had his back. In comparision, Will had a long list of people who has his. It is sad only Will cames up. Either that is a lie or it tells us alot of the situation Zach is living with. Zach has been type cast as a trouble makern and is put down by his parents. He has no where else to go. Will has a chance to be a real friend, not just a playmate. I can't help but thinking about Fred Hayes and how Aaron's loss changed him. Generations were effected. Wally was part of the group who attacked Robbie in high school. Fred want Aaron to have a better life, to go to college. Later he didn't want Jeff in college. Could Wally be effected by this also?  It sounds like of the six kids  Clara and Wally raised only three are bound or in college. Is he jealous that they have the ability he doesn't. If Zach was so much trouble, why would they sent away?  Do they know this host family? Why have not come to visit him? Now the harder questions. Do they really care about Zach? Care about his needs? As Will pointed out, do they really care, or did they just want to ship the problem out of town. Is that the best way of taking care of a problem? it is time for Brad to step up and raise Robbie extended family. If Robbie has still around, what would he had done? I think we can see the beginnigs of it. I bet he set up the host family for Zach. Robbie saw what Zach could become with help, his help. Will has it figured out. Will Brad?

 

Zach has been a trouble maker, as we saw in previous stories. Do we know that his parents have put him down, or have they expressed disappointment in his behaviors and said they didn't think he could handle having a car?

 

Zach might not feel he has any true friends but Will, but whose fault is that? Zach chose the loser friends he had in Claremont. He has only recently come to the realization that they are losers and that he himself was becoming or was a loser.

 

There is also zero textual evidence that Wally & Clara shipped him anyplace. In fact, from the text it appears that it is Zach who wanted to leave and get a fresh start and that after initial reluctance, Robbie helped him.

 

What problems are there with Zeke, Brent and Trent that Brad would need to step in and "help" them?

[rjo]

I am not sure if it is a good idea to respond to you or not. It seems like Will buying Zach a car is like a dead dog. It is dead, please bury it and move on. You called Zach a troublemaker, is he or is it just Gathan who thinks so? Whether Clara and Wally, have no faith in Zach is not the point. Zach thinks they don't. He wonders if they love him. That is big. Will felt that way when he ran away. Even way back JP thought his father didn't love him when he came out. I have a problem with something you said. You are upset with Will going against Wally and Clara about the car, but when Zach moved out to the East coast, which is much bigger thing, Wally and Clara wishes arn't important? Whether it was Zach's idea or not, Zach wanted to start over and he thought he needed a car. We can only wonder why Zach moved. Robbie had to work it out. Wally and Clara never met the host parents. Wally seems like the type of person that would not think out of the box. We can see that by  their reaction in the hotel. My question why is one wrong? Will buying the car even though I feel Will could have handled it better. And the moving Zach out of town  was right?  Could it be how it was done. Will himself believes that if Robbie had done this it would not be that  big a problem. Lastly you wondered about Brad helping the other kids. If Robbie was still alive he would have guided the rest of the family. Robbie is dead. Brad must now step in and help and guide them just like Robbie would have. Let's face it, Wally and Clara never ran a business or went to college. Wouldn't Brad and the crew be helpful at times like that?

Edited January 1, 2014 by rjo

[davewri]

Seems to me a lot of our dear readers have once again forgotten the fact that Will is a teenager, an adolescent. Will is emancipated so he gets a little more leeway in his actions than the average teenager. But why get upset about a fictional character?

 

I raised my two nephews who had to get away from a bad home situation, and it was always a challenge, but they turned out okay. I just don't see Will going down the self destructive path as someone we see everyday in real life, like Justin B******

 

So let's all sit back and read this story, but please give up on telling Mark how to write it.

[B1ue]

Seems to me a lot of our dear readers have once again forgotten the fact that Will is a teenager, an adolescent. Will is emancipated so he gets a little more leeway in his actions than the average teenager. But why get upset about a fictional character?

 

I raised my two nephews who had to get away from a bad home situation, and it was always a challenge, but they turned out okay. I just don't see Will going down the self destructive path as someone we see everyday in real life, like Justin B******

This runs up against the characterization that Will is mature for his age, expects to be treated as if he's mature for his age, but constantly fails to prove it. Part of the issue is that, while actually having responsibility is the best way to learn how to have it responsibly, Will doesn't seem to be doing too hot. His clashes with his parents, and now other people's parents seem to be increasing since his emancipation, not abating. That's a fairly annoying character trait to have at any age. There's some genuine grief issues, but his larger problem seems to be that he's still living in a situation where his worldview isn't taken as serious as he'd prefer. Maybe he'd be happier if he moved entirely out of everyone's home? In Hawaii, on his own territory that was unquestionably his own territory, he seemed to be less generally angry.

 

Still, he's actually punching all the proper tickets. He's getting good grades with what I would term a minimum of conflict with his teachers, but I understand others would not agree. He's staying on his assumed life plan of high school - > College - > some kind of career, although he's hazy on the details. He makes it to dinner on time, doesn't party constantly, and seems to be learning from his own relationship mistakes. I wonder what kind of character he'll become if his abrasiveness becomes a habit (meaning it becomes a habit for Mark to write him that way), but other than his inability to not call bullshit when he smells it, and the more annoying inability to not see himself making the same mistakes he's accusing others of, he's an alright person.

Edited January 1, 2014 by B1ue

[Mark Arbour]

 

This runs up against the characterization that Will is mature for his age, expects to be treated as if he's mature for his age, but constantly fails to prove it. Part of the issue is that, while actually having responsibility is the best way to learn how to have it responsibly, Will doesn't seem to be doing too hot. His clashes with his parents, and now other people's parents seem to be increasing since his emancipation, not abating. That's a fairly annoying character trait to have at any age. There's some genuine grief issues, but his larger problem seems to be that he's still living in a situation where his worldview isn't taken as serious as he'd prefer. Maybe he'd be happier if he moved entirely out of everyone's home? In Hawaii, on his own territory that was unquestionably his own territory, he seemed to be less generally angry.

 

Still, he's actually punching all the proper tickets. He's getting good grades with what I would term a minimum of conflict with his teachers, but I understand others would not agree. He's staying on his assumed life plan of high school - > College - > some kind of career, although he's hazy on the details. He makes it to dinner on time, doesn't party constantly, and seems to be learning from his own relationship mistakes. I wonder what kind of character he'll become if his abrasiveness becomes a habit (meaning it becomes a habit for Mark to write him that way), but other than his inability to not call bullshit when he smells it, and the more annoying inability to not see himself making the same mistakes he's accusing others of, he's an alright person.

 

Sounds like he's a work in progress. 

Edited January 2, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[methodwriter85]

    If Will were a guy who did everything right all the time, he'd be extremely boring to read about, wouldn't he?

[Daddydavek]

And the fact that he is opinionated, passionate, studly, caring and full of himself makes him interesting too!

[Kitt]

The world would be an awful boring place if we all thought and acted the same now wouldn't it? 

[rjo]

If we are really honest, we all are a work in progress. Learning from mistakes and doing better every day.

[PrivateTim]

Sounds like he's a work in progress. 

 

If he is a work in progress, who is he learning from? He doesn't seem to listen to anyone, not even Stef or JP when he disagrees with what they are saying to him. Anyone who tries to talk to him and take contrary positions his he escalates quickly into anger and has been like this since PMS.

 

No one has taken the bait to answer if they think Tonto would have handled Zach the same way and Wally & Clara the same way because they know the answer is no, yet so many are wanting to lay Tonto's mantle on him. They forget it took Tonto years (age & life experience) to get there.

 

Seems to me a lot of our dear readers have once again forgotten the fact that Will is a teenager, an adolescent. Will is emancipated so he gets a little more leeway in his actions than the average teenager. But why get upset about a fictional character?

 

I raised my two nephews who had to get away from a bad home situation, and it was always a challenge, but they turned out okay. I just don't see Will going down the self destructive path as someone we see everyday in real life, like Justin B******

 

So let's all sit back and read this story, but please give up on telling Mark how to write it.

 

I don't think anyone has told Mark how to write anything.

 

Simon Legree, David Copperfield, Phil Connor and many other fictional characters evoked strong emotions in people and launched reform movements and even a war. It is a testament to the skill of the writer that such emotions and discussions of real life issues can take place.

 

I am not sure if it is a good idea to respond to you or not. It seems like Will buying Zach a car is like a dead dog. It is dead, please bury it and move on. You called Zach a troublemaker, is he or is it just Gathan who thinks so? Whether Clara and Wally, have no faith in Zach is not the point. Zach thinks they don't. He wonders if they love him. That is big. Will felt that way when he ran away. Even way back JP thought his father didn't love him when he came out. I have a problem with something you said. You are upset with Will going against Wally and Clara about the car, but when Zach moved out to the East coast, which is much bigger thing, Wally and Clara wishes arn't important? Whether it was Zach's idea or not, Zach wanted to start over and he thought he needed a car. We can only wonder why Zach moved. Robbie had to work it out. Wally and Clara never met the host parents. Wally seems like the type of person that would not think out of the box. We can see that by  their reaction in the hotel. My question why is one wrong? Will buying the car even though I feel Will could have handled it better. And the moving Zach out of town  was right?  Could it be how it was done. Will himself believes that if Robbie had done this it would not be that  big a problem. Lastly you wondered about Brad helping the other kids. If Robbie was still alive he would have guided the rest of the family. Robbie is dead. Brad must now step in and help and guide them just like Robbie would have. Let's face it, Wally and Clara never ran a business or went to college. Wouldn't Brad and the crew be helpful at times like that?

 

You change directions quickly and never with textual evidence to back the change of directions.

 

There is no text on exactly how or why Zach wound up at Don Bosco, but it doesn't appear Wally & Clara initiated it nor objected to it. I think if they had objected that Robbie would not have crossed their wishes to help Zach move. Who ever gave Zach the idea of going to Don Bosco probably helped set up the host family as well. Since Robbie helped Zach with the process, I am going to assume Robbie vetted the host family and Wally & Clara trusted his judgment since they wouldn't know much about prep schools and the like. If Robbie felt Zach needed a car in NJ, he would have bought him one, but he probably would have made that decision in concert with Wally & Clara. And yes, I recognize I am assuming a lot here too based on a few sentences of Chapter 51, but we do know that the NJ opportunity came up quickly and that Robbie helped and that going at all was Zach's decision.

 

As to why Zach made the decision to move, I think it is pretty obvious. He didn't have any friends in Claremont and no one was going to accept his Road to Damascus conversion. He didn't need to worry about that at Don Bosco where he'd have a blank slate.

 

I called Zach a troublemaker because Will has and Zach has admitted to it, but says he has changed. That "change" is barely three months old, if that.

 

I am still open to hearing about how Will went from hating Zach on Sept. 28, to buying him a car before Oct. 2.

 

Will goes on to admit he got the deluxe model Durango partly to annoy Wally and then he mentioned it was "as nice as Gathan's" to annoy everyone more. Will Will listen when someone points out that was a shitty thing to do? Rub salt in the wound? How is he supposed to learn and grow if there is no one he listens to?