9.11

[Daddydavek]

I am still wondering how Brad will be coping with being in the shadow of Manhattan and whether Will is going to end up being too worried about him to get any real time to enjoy having Zach available overnight.

 

I think the discussion in the forum has distracted everyone from appreciating that grief takes a toll and one that isn't over in just days or weeks and it is still more like an open wound that must be borne.  I also think that people often do impulsive and dramatic things to distract them from their grief without thinking through the consequences.  In other words they are responding emotionally rather than logically.  When one has the wherewithal to do so, it can be really dramatic.  

 

I think Mark has painted a backdrop of dramatic events provoking strong emotions including nearly inconsolable grief which explains any lack of rational or logical thinking through of actions.  One doesn't have to be naive or mature to be affected by strong emotions and to react to them.   So as a result I do not attempt to dissect every action described in the light of cold calculating reasoned logic and cannot really understand someone who persists in doing so.  

[rjo]

I hate to say this but holidays are the worst. Anytime you remember that your loved one is not there.

Edited January 3, 2014 by rjo

[Gene Splicer PHD]

Odyssey and 9.11 both within hours of each other?

 

I am...arbourloaded

 

/sorry

 

Thanks Mark!

[Daddydavek]

Mark got to see his team win the Cotton Bowl last night and the fourth quarter saw the score and the lead change several times.  So I know he is stoked!

 

Brad has Will concerned and therefore me as I expect, that outside of JP and Steff, that Will knows him best.  I am really anticipating the next chapter and hopefully we will get it in the next week or so!

[Kitt]

Odyssey and 9.11 both within hours of each other?

 

I am...arbourloaded

 

/sorry

 

Thanks Mark!

Arbourloaded is a good thing tho!

[Mark Arbour]

Your post prompted me to share a few of my thoughts.

 

I am still open to hearing about how Will went from hating Zach on Sept. 28, to buying him a car before Oct. 2.

 

 

 

While you and I are so old and ancient we have forgotten young love, it does happen.     I think that's actually a pretty normal progression for a guy who's 15/16.  He can go from hate to infatuation remarkably fast. 

 

 

Will goes on to admit he got the deluxe model Durango partly to annoy Wally and then he mentioned it was "as nice as Gathan's" to annoy everyone more. Will Will listen when someone points out that was a shitty thing to do? Rub salt in the wound? How is he supposed to learn and grow if there is no one he listens to?

 

 

I think it's important to consider Will's perspective in this.  He's not acting like Zach is a fellow kid who is dealing with shit from his parents, he's acting like he and Zach are a couple, and he's jumping in to prop up his "boyfriend" (even though they don't have that official status).  That kind of partnership usually sparks an 'us vs. them' defensive reaction, regardless of age. 

[methodwriter85]

 

Zach's complete focus and potential ruthlessness was summed up pretty well in Will's mind, when he pondered that his own relatives (and his father) are just as bad (or are actually worse).

That's just one of the reasons why Zach and Will connect so well. Traits like that which Zach's other friends (and possibly his family, even Gathan) would consider to be terrible, are in fact something that Will understands perfectly.

 

    I think it's the interesting thing about Will- he's fully capable of getting ruthless and driven to a goal like his father and Stefan, and he's certainly got the brains and acumen where you could see him leading a Fortune 500 company...but I can't see it suiting him.  (I remember reading the end of chapter 62 and thinking, "You're way too compassionate to lead Corporate America like your father does, kid.") He wants more of a balance in his life, which you can't really have if you live a life that's driven by complete and total ambition to get ahead in one area of his life. Will could do it, he totally could, but I can't see him actually doing it because it's not his style. Will is the guy who wants a career, but he also wants a good relationship and be the kind of dad that could play with his kids on the front lawn early in the evening. At the same time though, like you said, he understands that mindset.

 

     And I'm really enjoying the total honesty between Zach and Will- I think Will pretty saw in Zach an underdog who had been forced by his family squabbles to go and strike out on his own on the East Coast...but the truth was a lot more complicated and cynical than that- that Zach pretty much didn't want his father to crowd around him and play the awful stage dad that embarrassed him with scouts. For Will, with whom "family" is synonymous with "breathing", it had to be pretty counter to his instincts.

 

       I wonder if JJ is that ruthlessly ambitious...I think he probably comes close. I think there's very little JJ wouldn't sacrifice, even if he has mellowed out a bit. I think there are some interesting parallels with Zach and JJ that could be cool to explore at some point.

 

 

You make a good point. I think that Will is fine with things as they are now, because his feelings for Zach aren't that intense (beyond friendship) and because this kind of arrangement works for him too. Fast forward 5-10 years, and things will probably be a lot different.

 

       Yeah. The truth of the matter is, even at the start of 2014 when we're 10 years into Massachusetts having gay marriage, there still hasn't been an active, openly gay American football player. Zach would be 28/29 right now- if he's a pro, he probably won't wind up retiring until he's more like 33/34 circa 2019.

 

      Would a 27-year old Will be cool with that arrangement, especially when he's got friends announcing their gay weddings on Facebook and showing off the new families they've started?

[rjo]

Jeremy, that was one of your best posts ever. It is nice to see someone who understands Will and JJ so well. We all have our idea of who these characters are. I think that is what is great about Mark's work. We all can have our own interpration and still enjoy the story. Hope you had a great New Year.

[Mark Arbour]

Jeremy, that was one of your best posts ever. It is nice to see someone who understands Will and JJ so well. We all have our idea of who these characters are. I think that is what is great about Mark's work. We all can have our own interpration and still enjoy the story. Hope you had a great New Year.

 

I agree.

[B1ue]

You know, I wonder how Tony and Zach would interact at this point. In both of their opinions, they have legitimate claims to Will's affection, and would probably not react well to the other guy's presence.

[methodwriter85]

 

This chapter brought back to me a minor issue I have: it seems to me that JJ is turning into a forgotten character. He's faced the worst situation prior to 9/11 and other than the plot to kill the trainer, it seems to have been just a minor issue, whereas I can imagine facing the loss of 9/11 would make for a complete mental breakdown of JJ.

 

    JJ's not around because he's in the middle of figure skating season. Early October was the Central Pacific Regionals, right now he's at Skate America in Colorado, and next up would be the Pacific Coast Sectionals in early November. He has at least one more Grand Prix to go to, possibly the Grand Prix final, as well as the U.S. championships- which keeps him busy until at least January. That's probably keeping him sane more than anything else.

 

    I also kind of figure that, as it's been said by Will and by JP, JJ generally keeps to himself these days, which makes sense. He doesn't want to get himself in the middle of family drama again- he's leaving all that to Will. I think JJ's just doing his skating thing and biding his time until he's 18 and able to move far, far away from the dramatics of his family and hoping he doesn't get sucked into another big drama before that happens.

 

      Although I can see JJ moving away before he turns 18...I can't see Brad kicking up much fuss about it if JJ were to decide to move to another region to work with a coach, and have Tiffany serve as his guardian/coach. He's almost 16 anyway.

 

 

You know, I wonder how Tony and Zach would interact at this point. In both of their opinions, they have legitimate claims to Will's affection, and would probably not react well to the other guy's presence.

 

    It's probably a good thing that Tony is at Stanford and Zach is, for the most part, way on the other side of the country.

 

    As for Brad, it's interesting to see where he's at- since 1986, he probably has defined himself as being a businessman, being Robbie's partner, and raising kids with his partner and Jeanine. Now Robbie's gone, Jeanine's gone, and his kids are mostly grown. It's interesting to see how Brad rebuilds his identity after losing such a big piece of it, especially considering that he's approaching 40.

Edited January 8, 2014 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

This last chapter was so telling. To get inside Brad's head, to understand how Brad sees his relationships is very illumenating. Brad has lost a lot more than most people could live with, but this is Brad. He maybe broken grieving and lost but this is Brad. In life you have survivors and Brad is a survivor. This new Brad will be different stronger more careful. He will learn from the past and with his family move on.

[PrivateTim]

You know, I wonder how Tony and Zach would interact at this point. In both of their opinions, they have legitimate claims to Will's affection, and would probably not react well to the other guy's presence.

 

Maybe they can get in a fight on a rooftop and fall off, punching each other all the way to the ground just before they splat.

 

A guy can dream

 

        Although I can see JJ moving away before he turns 18...I can't see Brad kicking up much fuss about it if JJ were to decide to move to another region to work with a coach, and have Tiffany serve as his guardian/coach. He's almost 16 anyway.

 

Why would JJ move anyplace? The best coaches in the country are in Southern California.

 

Now as to Zach, no one has been wrong about Zach or misjudged him, Brad impression of Zach as a self-centered asshole is spot on. Will himself remarked on the nastiness inside of Zach and how he could be cruel to achieve what he wants.

 

In the football game Zach demanded that the coach put him in, not because he wanted to win for the, but because he wanted the scouts to see him. He shouted an poked at the lineman about having his career "short circuited", no concern for the team or "do you want to win this game", it was all about him. Football players I know would have okey doke blocked for an asshole like that and let him keep getting creamed until the coach pulled him out.

 

Getting the jersey for Will might have been a nice thing, but if Will threatens Zach's goals Zach will run over him like he would a 12 year old linebacker.

 

Just because Zach is a good lay Will flips his opinion on him? Zach is still the guy who went after John after Will rejected him and told him why. Zach is still the guy who took the bike that didn't belong to him and wrecked it. Zach is still the guy who emotionally blackmailed Gathan. Just because an asshole can do some nice things doesn't mean they are not an asshole still.

 

Will maybe has discovered that Zach has a side to his story too, but why has he never been able to see anyone elses side of a story? Did he stop to consider why Brad and Robbie were doing what they did as parents? Did he try to understand his mother? Has he sat down with Wally to try and understand how hard it is to raise six kids on a sanitation workers salary especially when not all of them are your kids even? How a parent worries about his kids drinking too much, getting into drugs, getting a girl pregnant or getting pregnant? I just don't see this vaunted maturity in Will that everyone talks about. He seems like a standard teen boy led around by his dick making bad decisions.

[Daddydavek]

I noted Tim's review above and understand his opinions about Zach and Will.  However, he did have a good point in his actual review of the latest chapter which is quoted below:

 

"Nice to see Brad getting ready to move on, but it still isn't going to be easy. The trauma of losing a partner in 9-11 won't go away easily especially with the annual name readings, the TV coverage on the anniversary and the rest that goes along with it.
A cool chapter, but I wonder where we go next."

 

His points here are spot on and his last sentence left me wondering as well.  Mark has so many ways he could go from continuing  this book for some time, to wrapping it up and moving on to Will Post-9/11 or CAP 9.11 Aftermath or even doing an interlude concentrating on Wade's story with Ethan.  

[Kitt]

We shall just have to keep reading to find out!

[methodwriter85]

 

Why would JJ move anyplace? The best coaches in the country are in Southern California.

 

    Well, according to Daisy, JJ's only real competition at the East Coast Sectionals would be Johnny Weir, so he'd have a much easier time getting into Nationals. And I do think the New York City condo is going to become occupied at some point...Will is a dyed in the wool Cali guy, but JJ's not. I can see JJ moving somewhere different so that he doesn't have to deal with his family's drama all the time, and so that he can be in a place where his brother isn't instantly taking up attention as the Golden Boy. I can see him satisfied with weekly skypes and monthly visits when it comes to his family.

 

     Plus, I can see JJ really liking being able to utilize his Burberry coat collection more often if he lives in the Northeast.

 

 

Just because Zach is a good lay Will flips his opinion on him?

 

     I don't think Will's flipped his opinion of Zach. He just appreciates Zach's honesty about himself, and finds his candor a pretty redeeming feature. Will's going into this thing with Zach where he sees Zach as pretty much a very flawed guy but who's honest with him, as opposed to with Tony, when he thought Tony was full of honor but it turned out he had none.

[GLH]

Maybe they can get in a fight on a rooftop and fall off, punching each other all the way to the ground just before they splat.

 

A guy can dream

 

Somebody's been watching too much "Family Guy"...  

[PrivateTim]

    Well, according to Daisy, JJ's only real competition at the East Coast Sectionals would be Johnny Weir, so he'd have a much easier time getting into Nationals. And I do think the New York City condo is going to become occupied at some point...Will is a dyed in the wool Cali guy, but JJ's not. I can see JJ moving somewhere different so that he doesn't have to deal with his family's drama all the time, and so that he can be in a place where his brother isn't instantly taking up attention as the Golden Boy. I can see him satisfied with weekly skypes and monthly visits when it comes to his family.

 

     Plus, I can see JJ really liking being able to utilize his Burberry coat collection more often if he lives in the Northeast.

 

     I don't think Will's flipped his opinion of Zach. He just appreciates Zach's honesty about himself, and finds his candor a pretty redeeming feature. Will's going into this thing with Zach where he sees Zach as pretty much a very flawed guy but who's honest with him, as opposed to with Tony, when he thought Tony was full of honor but it turned out he had none.

 

I guess I don't get where you get that JJ isn't "a Cali guy" (by the way no one is "Cali" calls it "Cali")? California isn't Delaware. You can live 9-10 hours driving time from your family and still be in California.

 

And if you think you can't wear your Burberrys in CA, you've never been to San Francisco in June.

 

Even though they are only 40 minutes apart, most people who live in Palo Alto or south probably don't get into The City more than a few times a year. There just isn't a huge need.

 

I do think that Will flipped his opinion on Zach. Would the pre-Robbie's memorial Will have bought Zach a car?

 

Somebody's been watching too much "Family Guy"...  

 

Yes, I do watch way too much Family Guy

Edited January 10, 2014 by PrivateTim

[B1ue]

(by the way no one is "Cali" calls it "Cali")

Well, I do.

 

More when typing than talking. I can't be bothered to type the full word out most of the time, and I really can't be bothered to make sure I put all the letters in the correct order that time.

 

As to the rest of your points, I think when Jeremy meant JJ isn't a typical "Cali" guy, he's talking about what non-Californians think about in terms of our state, that is, a typical white-surfer-as-depicted-on-the-OC kind of guy. Actually, a fair number of people from California (Southern California especially) would describe that as typical Californian, even if the picture is about thirty years out of date. People like that do exist; in fact, based on the statements you've made about your childhood and teenage years, I've more or less assumed you were one once upon a time, In any case, Will is probably going to be one, even if he fails the attitude aptitude. JJ, he's going to be the kind of person that when asked what it was like growing up in Malibu, he's going to say, "It was awful. The sun was out, people smiled too much and wore WAY too much pink."

 

Which I've noticed is a fairly typical response out of a native Californian right now, interestingly enough. Not me though. I like the beach, and our weather.

 

https://twitter.com/shinguardian/status/421035317005520896/photo/1

[methodwriter85]

Well, I do.

 

More when typing than talking. I can't be bothered to type the full word out most of the time, and I really can't be bothered to make sure I put all the letters in the correct order that time.

 

As to the rest of your points, I think when Jeremy meant JJ isn't a typical "Cali" guy, he's talking about what non-Californians think about in terms of our state, that is, a typical white-surfer-as-depicted-on-the-OC kind of guy. Actually, a fair number of people from California (Southern California especially) would describe that as typical Californian, even if the picture is about thirty years out of date. People like that do exist; in fact, based on the statements you've made about your childhood and teenage years, I've more or less assumed you were one once upon a time, In any case, Will is probably going to be one, even if he fails the attitude aptitude. JJ, he's going to be the kind of person that when asked what it was like growing up in Malibu, he's going to say, "It was awful. The sun was out, people smiled too much and wore WAY too much pink."

 

Which I've noticed is a fairly typical response out of a native Californian right now, interestingly enough. Not me though. I like the beach, and our weather.

 

https://twitter.com/shinguardian/status/421035317005520896/photo/1

 

 

    I had an e-friend back in 2000-2001 who was a Michigan transplant from California, and she wrote "Cali." I kinda figured that was a typical way of referring to the state- everyone has nicknames for their states. I know people who call New Jersey "Dirty Jerz", or the more broadly done "Jersey"....in Delaware, we say "The 302". Delaware has only one area code- 302 - so that makes it a handy way of referring to the state.

 

    When I think of Californians, I have that image that Blue described, but also that of people who are always outdoors, always outside, always doing something. JJ's pretty much always inside on the ice skating rink, and I can't picturing him outside rollerblading on the boardwalk or hiking in Topanga Canyon. My Cali friend once said to me, "I can't picture you being in California...you're a "sit inside and read a book" kind of guy, not an outdoorsy person kind of guy." JJ strikes me as being similar in that regard...the only time you'll see him outside is when he's walking to his next boutique.

 

 

People like that do exist; in fact, based on the statements you've made about your childhood and teenage years, I've more or less assumed you were one once upon a time

 

    I've kind of always assumed that Private Tim's teen years looked like this:

 

 

   Tim strikes me as a cross between Brandon and Steve- I picture him as a tall blond jock like Steve Sanders (he played water polo, right?), but studious and rule-abiding like Brandon Walsh.

Edited January 10, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

 

 

   When I think of Californians, I have that image that Blue described, but also that of people who are always outdoors, always outside, always doing something. JJ's pretty much always inside on the ice skating rink, and I can't picturing him outside rollerblading on the boardwalk or hiking in Topanga Canyon. My Cali friend once said to me, "I can't picture you being in California...you're a "sit inside and read a book" kind of guy, not an outdoorsy person kind of guy." JJ strikes me as being similar in that regard...the only time you'll see him outside is when he's walking to his next boutique.

 

 

 

 

There's this problem with stereotypes: they're usually wrong.  In this case, it's impossible to take a huge state like California and come up with some set descriptor.  I lost touch with the culture of my home state in the early 2000's, when I stopped traveling as much and didn't get back to visit as much, but there were some stark differences then, and I'm sure they still exist, in some form or another, today. 

 

First of all, there was the great San Francisco-LA divide, with two very distinct cultures in those two metro areas.  Add in the inland areas, like the lovely metropolises of Fresno, Stockton, and Bakersfield, not to mention the northern, pot-growing regions (Humboldt and Chico State), and you have a place much too diversified to make such broad sweeping generalizations.  And that doesn't even start to take in the racial/cultural melting pot that is the whole state. 

  

I've kind of always assumed that Private Tim's teen years looked like this:

 

 

   Tim strikes me as a cross between Brandon and Steve- I picture him as a tall blond jock like Steve Sanders (he played water polo, right?), but studious and rule-abiding like Brandon Walsh.

 

 

See, and I usually think of Alf.       

[Sammy Blue]

I'm sorry I haven't been reading and posting here much, lately.

 

Anyway, I thought I just had to comment here after reading the latest chapter...

 

I think it has been mentioned quite some in the reviews but... I'm kind of glad that Tony is history now (or is he? LOL never underestimate a Mark Arbour... it seems too easy of an end for all that drama....)

 

Also, rjo said in his review that this is not just about grief, but about Matt being like this for 4 years, and I kind of have to agree with him. It made me wonder whether Matt really should remember of Robbie... or maybe rather of Jeff? Only, he isn't doing heroine, he's doing dicks.

 

Some people said they hope that this is the end of Matt and Wade and I don't know. Those two started out being really great and then Matt became an asshole. I really liked him in the beginning but ever since he's been a captain of that team I've kind of started losing my respect for him. He really became a dick after that first book. Still, it's hard to see this relationship go down the tubes... (or go down the creek, as we say in German )

 

I would honestly wish for Matt to change, but I doubt that will happen. He might change some, might see some of his mistakes, but I'm not convinced he will change completely... I just hope I don't have to go through all the emotional pain with Wade like we used to with Brad, because I like Wade a lot more than I like Brad.... ^-^

 

There is one interesting question though... if Matt doesn't end up being the right guy for Wade... who then?

 

Anyway, that was my two cents (and a gallon of beer )

A good night to everyone!

Sammy

Edited January 11, 2014 by Sammy Blue

[Mark Arbour]

I'm sorry I haven't been reading and posting here much, lately.

 

Anyway,  thought I just had to comment here after reading the latest chapter...

 

I think it has been mentioned quite some in the reviews but... I'm kind of glad that Tony is history now (or is he? LOL never underestimate a Mark Arbour... it seems too easy of an end for all that drama....)

 

Also, rjo said in his review that this is not just about grief, but about Matt being like this for 4 years, and I kind of have to agree with him. It made me wonder whether Matt really should remember of Robbie... or maybe rather of Jeff? Only, he isn't doing heroine, he's doing dicks.

 

Some people said they hope that this is the end of Matt and Wade and I don't know. Those two started out being really great and then Matt became an asshole. I really liked him in the beginning but ever since he's been a captain of that team I've kind of started losing my respect for him. He really became a dick after that first book. Still, it's hard to see this relationship go down the tubes... (or go down the creek, as we say in German )

 

I would honestly wish for Matt to change, but I doubt that will happen. I just hope I don't have to go through all the emotional pain with Wade like we used to with Brad, because I like Wade a lot more than I like Brad.... ^-^

 

There is one interesting question though... if Matt doesn't end up being the right guy for Wade... who then?

 

Anyway, that was my two cents (and a gallon of beer )

A good night to everyone!

 

Sammy

 

The end of college (undergrad years) can be one of the most stressful times.  Matt and Wade are heading toward that, toward May, like a rocket, and they're at completely different places.  Wade has fast forwarded, and he's already living the grad student life.  He's at that level, and he's ready to be serious about life.  Matt's stuck in the past, a perennial sophomore, determined to make the most of the 6 months or so he has left.  It's really a collision course. 

 

Now add onto that the impact of grief on both of them (which  probably influenced their relative maturity), and it becomes pretty ugly.  

[PrivateTim]

Apparently all Matt will need to do is screw Will, tell him a hard luck story about his parents not understanding him and everyone being mean to him.

 

He will get a new truck as a bonus

[Sammy Blue]

Apparently all Matt will need to do is screw Will, tell him a hard luck story about his parents not understanding him and everyone being mean to him.

 

He will get a new truck as a bonus

 

Lol, it might actually work. ;D

 

No seriously, Will isn't that easy (actually, he is, but only if it seems real enough to him, and Matt wouldn't be able to convince him of that)... also, I doubt he would fuck Matt. There is this brother thing and then there is Wade.

 

And it seems that whole issue with Zach's car isn't going to be forgotten any soon. Gave me a good laugh, though.