9.11

[MJ85]

I think she might also be the type to force her significant other to prove their love, over and over. And those people need to be cut loose too, in my opinion. From my experience, people like that don't need a boyfriend with friends and needs of their own, they need a dog that will love them unconditionally.

 

Nooooo...what they need, simply cannot be provided, because said need is not one that can ever be completely satisfied.

 

And Fatal Attraction? Ohhhhhh yeah. I can totally see it coming.

[Mari]

 

 

In any event...Tony's mother and sister TOTTTTTALLLLLYYYYY know he's gay, and that Will's his boyfriend.

 

 

how do they know this? or just suspect?

[mmike1969]

how do they know this? or just suspect?

Based on Millennium: E. Danfield. "A mother knows when her son is in love".

 

Now the sister knows because either Tony or Will is kind of loud.

[methodwriter85]

   Well, that, and it seems like it's in Will's genectic make-up not to lock the door when he's having sex.

[Mark Arbour]

Tony had a weekend planned that did not include her, and she forced herself along, even to the point of suggesting that Tony re-arrange his entire trip (renting an additional canoe, tent supplies, etc.) just to accommodate her whims. She also was extremely rude to Will, and outted him to Tony's friend. There are people that will let their significant others treat their friends like shit, because the friend is less important. There are many people that won't, though, and Tony could decide that he's one of them, if he's just looking for an excuse.

 

Regardless of whether he wants to date Will exclusively, those are some pretty big warning signs. Her biggest issue with Will (since I doubt she knows about them screwing around) is that Will takes time away from her. What's going to happen when she decides he sees his family too much? Or his other friends? We've all seen people like that in life and in this saga. Dana is definitely showing signs she's one.

 

I think she might also be the type to force her significant other to prove their love, over and over. And those people need to be cut loose too, in my opinion. From my experience, people like that don't need a boyfriend with friends and needs of their own, they need a dog that will love them unconditionally.

 

Very well said.

 

   Well, that, and it seems like it's in Will's genectic make-up not to lock the door when he's having sex.

 

Although we actually saw him (in Paternity) make a point of doing just that.

[methodwriter85]

   Damn. Will is bucking some of his family trends, isn't he? Although it would make sense that the attempted blackmail scheme would probably have affected that.

Edited May 28, 2013 by methodwriter85

[methodwriter85]

I'm guessing Tony is smarter than that, although I'm not sure what I'm basing that on.

 

   See, that's the thing. If that happened, it would be an "accident" as opposed to an actual accident. Dan Savage once had a bit where he talked to a reader who should NOT be reassured that her daughter's not having sex because her boyfriend is gayer than Lucas Grabeel in High School Musical. Closeted gay teenagers can and often impregnate girls,because as Savage put it, nothing says "I'M NOT GAY" more than knocking up a girl. At least in terms of the closetcase mindset. I remember when Ella had at pregnancy scare, you were talking about how most "accidents" aren't really accidents, on some kind of level.

 

   Although I could see Tony also going the other way, where if he and Will are "together" in 2013 and Will starts pressing him about wanting to get a surrogate to start having kids, and Tony refuses because on some level he doesn't believe in gay men raising kids together. I had an e-friend once, from a pretty conservative background that struggled mightily with his sexual orientation...he had a committed boyfriend and clearly would have loved to have started a family, but he had a very strong feeling that children deserve to have a mother and a father instead of same-sex parenting.

 

  Will's reaction to Mason's height was a little weird to me. I get that he's 6'1" and the bulk of the guys in the story are at least 6 foot, but JP is 5'6" and Will's still in the underclassmen years of high school, where 5'5" wouldn't be that uncommon. It wasn't until 11th grade that I noticed guys were really starting to tower over me. Unless Mason is someone who has really broad shoulders that looks like he should be taller. Will's bit also made me wonder about JJ's height....I've assumed that JJ is likely about 5'3" or 5'4", but it makes me wonder if JJ's actually more around 5'5"-5'6" and he just seems shorter to Will because Will is pretty tall for his age.

 

     I liked the semi-culture shock going on with Will. I experienced a shade of that when I lived in Western P.A. for a few years.

 

     I also like that Will's apparently going to be more faithful in their limited fidelity agreement- he's better about that than his father was. It doesn't seem like Mark is modeling Will/Tony on Brad and Robbie or Matt and Wade, which is nice.

 

Shallow?  I think they seem pretty typical.  We'll see if that gets better.

 

      People usually don't display their depth when they're in party mode.

Edited June 3, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

  Will's reaction to Mason's height was a little weird to me. I get that he's 6'1" and the bulk of the guys in the story are at least 6 foot, but JP is 5'6" and Will's still in the underclassmen years of high school, where 5'5" wouldn't be that uncommon. It wasn't until 11th grade that I noticed guys were really starting to tower over me. Unless Mason is someone who has really broad shoulders that looks like he should be taller. Will's bit also made me wonder about JJ's height....I've assumed that JJ is likely about 5'3" or 5'4", but it makes me wonder if JJ's actually more around 5'5"-5'6" and he just seems shorter to Will because Will is pretty tall for his age.

 

I think it's because they were sitting when Will was really able to notice him. If they were about the same height sitting down, which does happen, Mason only coming up to his shoulder might be shocking.

[Kitt]

" Although...wouldn't Will being an atheist actually be somewhat of a problem with Catholic Tony, at least down the road when they're talking about how they're going to raise the twins they procured courtesy of a three-some with a lesbian? Not being on the same page religion-wise can sometimes be a big dealbreaker."

 

     Ummm - do you know something the rest of us don't?  Twins that Tony and Will acquire thru a threesome with a lesbian?  You are sooooo quoting facts not yet in evidence! Or perhaps you are letting your own immagination run with possibilities? These two are barely even dating at this point. Tony is still firmly in the closet even if a few of his friends have peeked in. A bit early to be contemplating raising twins. Talk about babies raising babies!

 

    Everyone who has commented on the possible people in harms way on that horrible day seem to have forgotten three very big possibilities. Hank, Jeanine and Maddy are all currently living in Hoboken,  a town heavily impacted by air quality and transportation issues. Hank is a NYC cop, a group that could not fail to have been hit hard by 9-11, and Brad has just bought a condo for them in Tribeca, so close to ground zero that even if they do happen to be clear of the initial events of that day by some grace of the fates, it most certainly will be a major impact on their lives.

 

     Even those of us who were physically far away ( and ostensibly safe) from the carnage and distruction at ground zero were impacted heavily.  You try sitting in a third grade classroom and handling explaining to children why they cannot get on the bus to go home like their friends because we have not been able to reach mommy or daddy yet, both of whom worked in the city. Thank God or the fates or whatever it is you believe in all our parents did come home, some after walking miles thru that war zone. 

[MJ85]

I also like that Will's apparently going to be more faithful in their limited fidelity agreement- he's better about that than his father was. It doesn't seem like Mark is modeling Will/Tony on Brad and Robbie or Matt and Wade, which is nice.

 

I'd call this more of a one-off for the time being, mainly because the circumstances lined up exactly for it to happen:

 

1) Tony finally dumps Dana - in front of them, no less.

2) It turns out that Tony and Rick have also messed around.

3) They end up going to hang out with Tony's friends, mere hours after (1) happened - thus, Will's not in a mood to stray.

 

How much of Will's "straying" does Tony really know about? I'm inclined to think that Tony should call Will on his repeated declarations of "they're not exclusive", at least. Will doesn't want to be exclusive...oh, but he gets to be upset when Tony decides to actually follow through on that?

 

Obviously, he thought he'd be the only one doing any same-sex straying, and didn't even imagine the idea that, so too would Tony. Careful what you wish for, Golden Boy...you just might get it.

[methodwriter85]

 Ummm - do you know something the rest of us don't?  Twins that Tony and Will acquire thru a threesome with a lesbian?  You are sooooo quoting facts not yet in evidence! Or perhaps you are letting your own immagination run with possibilities? These two are barely even dating at this point. Tony is still firmly in the closet even if a few of his friends have peeked in. A bit early to be contemplating raising twins. Talk about babies raising babies!

 

Not really, just that there's no way Will won't eventually have kids by his late 20's (I think the only one of Brad's kids I could see as being childless would be JJ), because a big on-going theme of CAP has always been the creaton, and passing on to, the next generation. CAP ended with Isidore being pregnant with twins. The Land Whore had a bit where Stefan mused about the kids.  Man In Motion had Brad finding out about Darius, and the births of JJ, Marie, and Will. Bloodlines had Robbie discovering a son.  Then in Poor Man's Son, we had Matt and Wade become daddies before they were old enough to legally drink- the creation of Riley leading to (if we start with JP's) the start of Generation 4. (I'm counting Brad's generation as Gen 2, and Will's generation as Gen 3.) If Tony is indeed being written as eventually ending up with Will, kids are eventually going to become a question mark. I do think it's obvious that he's going to be a continual prescence in Will's life (much to the chargin of Private Tim)...there's too much backstory being built up for me to think that Tony's going anywhere.

 

  Does anyone in your world get to just fall in love and have a happily ever after?  JP and Stef are getting there but that's taken almost 40 yrs in the making!  I will keep reading another 40 yrs worth of stories if that's what it takes to make it to happily ever after!

 

      A couple can have a happily ever after if they don't become the focus of another story...happily ever after is nice, but to read as a story would be pretty boring. Brad and Robbie had a "happily ever after" until Mark dusted them off to become the focus in Millenium.

 

     This pretty much mimics typical soap...soap supercouples only have a happy ending that sticks if they're off the show or on the backburner.

Edited June 3, 2013 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

Well, I am so glad to have the first confrontation with Dana behind Tony.  I just don't for a minute believe it will be the last one.  Dana strikes me as the kind of person that believes no one could do better than her.  That kind of person always seeks revenge when it ends, especially when it is done in public like this one was. 

 

I thought Will handled everything from Dana to Rick to Mason really well and maturely.  Will is going to have to be the one that decides if the drama involved will be worth having a relationship with Tony.  If Will does stay in St Louis for a couple of weeks, he may have a better idea of what is ahead between him and Tony.

 

I have to wonder if Tony does go ahead and come out, if he won't go through a slut period.  I have seen that more than once when someone that hide who they were for a long time finally comes out, they just go wild sleeping with everyone.  It doesn't always last very long but it isn't that unusual of an event. 

[Mark Arbour]

I'd call this more of a one-off for the time being, mainly because the circumstances lined up exactly for it to happen:

 

1) Tony finally dumps Dana - in front of them, no less.

2) It turns out that Tony and Rick have also messed around.

3) They end up going to hang out with Tony's friends, mere hours after (1) happened - thus, Will's not in a mood to stray.

 

How much of Will's "straying" does Tony really know about? I'm inclined to think that Tony should call Will on his repeated declarations of "they're not exclusive", at least. Will doesn't want to be exclusive...oh, but he gets to be upset when Tony decides to actually follow through on that?

 

Obviously, he thought he'd be the only one doing any same-sex straying, and didn't even imagine the idea that, so too would Tony. Careful what you wish for, Golden Boy...you just might get it.

 

You missed Will's big reason for being irritated with Tony about Rick.  Tony told Will that when they were together (as in doing something together, like this float trip) he wouldn't fuck around on him.  Will's not expecting Tony to be a faithful boyfriend, and he's not promising to do the same.  He is expecting to be Tony's center of attention on this trip, which is reasonable, considering Tony invited him and he's being led into a group of friends who aren't his.  He was also expecting Tony to fuck around with only him on this trip, another reasonable conclusion based on Tony's promises. 

 

Well, I am so glad to have the first confrontation with Dana behind Tony.  I just don't for a minute believe it will be the last one.  Dana strikes me as the kind of person that believes no one could do better than her.  That kind of person always seeks revenge when it ends, especially when it is done in public like this one was. 

 

I thought Will handled everything from Dana to Rick to Mason really well and maturely.  Will is going to have to be the one that decides if the drama involved will be worth having a relationship with Tony.  If Will does stay in St Louis for a couple of weeks, he may have a better idea of what is ahead between him and Tony.

 

I have to wonder if Tony does go ahead and come out, if he won't go through a slut period.  I have seen that more than once when someone that hide who they were for a long time finally comes out, they just go wild sleeping with everyone.  It doesn't always last very long but it isn't that unusual of an event. 

 

I totally agree with you on the slut phase, but I'm not sure Tony will have one of those.  It's possible he's having that right now. 

[Kitt]

I'm getting the impression that Will has been almost too mature for too long.  Granted he could have handled the confrontation over the party guest list a bit more diplomatically, but when you look at how he started trying to make things right with JP as soon as the plane landed in LA and how well he dealt with Tony and Dana and Rick and Mason, I keep looking for a place to take cover when the pressure finally overloads and the cork pops loose.  He is after all just short of his 15th birthday is he not? At that age a male ( and a lot of females too for that matter) are giant walking hormones. This is an awful lot of restraint for a walking hormone to be showing! 

[B1ue]

I'm getting the impression that Will has been almost too mature for too long.  Granted he could have handled the confrontation over the party guest list a bit more diplomatically, but when you look at how he started trying to make things right with JP as soon as the plane landed in LA and how well he dealt with Tony and Dana and Rick and Mason, I keep looking for a place to take cover when the pressure finally overloads and the cork pops loose.  He is after all just short of his 15th birthday is he not? At that age a male ( and a lot of females too for that matter) are giant walking hormones. This is an awful lot of restraint for a walking hormone to be showing! 

 

Except that he's a giant walking bag of hormones that has been there and done that, so the pressure already has been relieved in some ways. Not totally, we saw Will can and will lose his stack, and I'm not liking how quickly he decided that Tony was going to have sex with Rick, but he's been sleeping around almost daily with various gentlemen for about 18 months now. Also, he just recently got a lesson that just because he can sleep with someone, doesn't make it a good idea.

 

Besides, as it keeps being pointed out, Will isn't a typical teenager. He never really was, but that has been accelerated since he started becoming a viewpoint character. The fastest way (note, I do not claim best way) to gain maturity is to be expected to have it, in my experience, and that seems to be what's happening to Will.

[Kitt]

While you are completely correct there are more hormones than the ones that steer the sex drive, and in the mid teens ALL of them get out of whack.  Emotions are also to a point hormone driven.  Ever have a pregnant lady burst into tears for no discernible reason?  Or a have to deal with a new mom who has a case of the "baby blues"?  The male of the species are no less susceptible to the mood swings and odd behaviors. The just have different ways of dealing with it.  Painting Ferrari's  with pool chemicals for example.

[Mark Arbour]

While you are completely correct there are more hormones than the ones that steer the sex drive, and in the mid teens ALL of them get out of whack.  Emotions are also to a point hormone driven.  Ever have a pregnant lady burst into tears for no discernible reason?  Or a have to deal with a new mom who has a case of the "baby blues"?  The male of the species are no less susceptible to the mood swings and odd behaviors. The just have different ways of dealing with it.  Painting Ferrari's  with pool chemicals for example.

 

I so wanted to like this post but I'm out of 'likes' for the day.  Damn.

[vaessavoy]

Mark, I needed to respond here to your response to my review. I am thinking we likely got drunk together at some point in the eighties, perhaps unintentionally. Back in the days when we only needed student I.d.s to get served and the drinking age was 21. We spent a lot of time at Shakespeare's, the Heidelberg, the shack before it was torn down. And the Blue Note back when it was still on the business loop. I was really active in the effort to get the university to divest their investments from companies that did business in South Africa and we lived on the quad in a shanty town for months. When the university finally tore them down, it was big news. I made the cover of the post-dispatch being carried off by the cops. See, spiraling again. In any case, I like that we get to see Will in your neck of the woods. It feels right.

[methodwriter85]

Mark, I needed to respond here to your response to my review. I am thinking we likely got drunk together at some point in the eighties, perhaps unintentionally.

 

 I totally would have loved to have gotten drunk with a circa 1989, 26-year old Mark Arbour...I bet he must've been a geat drinking buddy.

 

I think that Tony as he is now is not a good match for Will.  I wonder what Tony will be like five years in the future.

 

    I think the thing bout Tony is that he's someone who avoids conflict or upsetting the status quo, pretty much. I think that's gotta change if he's going to wind up with Will, who is pretty much going to wind up the Champion for Various Just Causes like his great-grandmother was back in the day. Will very much runs head-first into conflict, as well as speaking up when he thinks the status quo in a particular case is b.s.

Edited June 4, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

I think for Tony, the idea that Will would wind up hooking up with Rick (based on what Tony already knew about Rick) drove him more to dump Dana then and there than having any sudden epiphany about who he wanted to be with Dana or Will.

 

I really hope Will and Mason hook up; love those little guys hung like bulls. I knew a 103 pound wrestler once and he had to have 60 pounds of d*ck, it was totally hot.

 

I wish Will would drag Tony off to Hawaii, but that isn't going to happen because we have to have drama and confrontation in MO where all the players are.

[Kitt]

There is nothing wrong with speaking up when you think the status quo is a pile of horse manure! It takes someone shoveling it to make a difference!  Yes that occasionally lands the stand up speaker in the middle of the pile, but that's why they invented bathtubs and showers.

[B1ue]

I think for Tony, the idea that Will would wind up hooking up with Rick (based on what Tony already knew about Rick) drove him more to dump Dana then and there than having any sudden epiphany about who he wanted to be with Dana or Will.

 

I thought that as well. I hoped it was because Dana crossed the line, or that he decided that Will or not, he didn't want to be with Dana, but this was probably a factor as well.

[rjo]

Tony grew up without his father. He saw how hard it was for his mother. Sam died of AIDS because of Jake. However Tony blames Sam's being bi or gay. He hated his father because of what it did to the family. Many times kids blame themselves for this. Then he feels the same feelings that killed his dad and hurt his family. If he is gay he lets down his whole family and friends. That is a great burden for anyone, now add to that close Italian family and his tight knit friends it is even bigger. It is so different than Will who doesn't have that burden.

 

I think Will is going to be the same crusader for progress that his great grandmother was. He will need a partner who can support and live with that. Someone strong enough to hold him back when that is needed but will let him run free when that is needed to. At this point Tony is not that strong. He could grow into that person, but I fell there is someone out there waiting to meet Will down the road.

[methodwriter85]

I think Will is going to be the same crusader for progress that his great grandmother was. He will need a partner who can support and live with that. Someone strong enough to hold him back when that is needed but will let him run free when that is needed to. At this point Tony is not that strong. He could grow into that person, but I fell there is someone out there waiting to meet Will down the road.

 

It does remain to be seen if I can see Tony down the road taking part in the Prop 8 protests that we all know damn well Will is going to be front and center with. He's got a lot of internal homophobia to deal with.

[Kitt]

Tony grew up without his father. He saw how hard it was for his mother. Sam died of AIDS because of Jake. However Tony blames Sam's being bi or gay. He hated his father because of what it did to the family. Many times kids blame themselves for this. Then he feels the same feelings that killed his dad and hurt his family. If he is gay he lets down his whole family and friends. That is a great burden for anyone, now add to that close Italian family and his tight knit friends it is even bigger. It is so different than Will who doesn't have that burden.

 

I think Will is going to be the same crusader for progress that his great grandmother was. He will need a partner who can support and live with that. Someone strong enough to hold him back when that is needed but will let him run free when that is needed to. At this point Tony is not that strong. He could grow into that person, but I fell there is someone out there waiting to meet Will down the road.

 

Tony grew up without his father. He saw how hard it was for his mother. Sam died of AIDS because of Jake. However Tony blames Sam's being bi or gay. He hated his father because of what it did to the family. Many times kids blame themselves for this. Then he feels the same feelings that killed his dad and hurt his family. If he is gay he lets down his whole family and friends. That is a great burden for anyone, now add to that close Italian family and his tight knit friends it is even bigger. It is so different than Will who doesn't have that burden.

 

I think Will is going to be the same crusader for progress that his great grandmother was. He will need a partner who can support and live with that. Someone strong enough to hold him back when that is needed but will let him run free when that is needed to. At this point Tony is not that strong. He could grow into that person, but I fell there is someone out there waiting to meet Will down the road.

No - you can't say he died of aids because of Jake. It was Sam's responsibility to protect himself. He may have contracted AIDS from Jake, but condoms did exist back then, Aids had been identified by then, or if he had stayed faithful to his partner - either when he was with JP or later when he married Maria, he would have been around as Tony and Julia grew up. Seems like a great stroke of luck to me that Maria didn't contract the disease as well.  

 

And unless I missed some tryst along the way - Will DOES have a father that is gay, and the Crampton/Shulter/Hayes family seems pretty tight knit to me - or did up till Isadore, Claire and Marie fell off the support the family wagon.