9-11 Poll: Who doesn't make it

[sat8997]

 Also by the fact that 9/11 effectively ended the boyband/Britney and Co. pop explosion in the U.S....

 

 

There you go. One more thing to blame on those pesky terrorists.

[sat8997]

Logistically, I see no reason why any of the CAP characters have to die on 9/11. But I'm not the one writing the story so it's a moot point. His nibs will do as he wants. I will agree with those who've said JP can't die. His death, or more realistically, Stefan's death (natural causes for the both) after JP's, would, for me, be the logical conclusion to this series.

[Mark Arbour]

Logistically, I see no reason why any of the CAP characters have to die on 9/11. But I'm not the one writing the story so it's a moot point. His nibs will do as he wants. I will agree with those who've said JP can't die. His death, or more realistically, Stefan's death (natural causes for the both) after JP's, would, for me, be the logical conclusion to this series.

 

That's true.  Death and dismemberment would only create more drama.

[B1ue]

To add to PriviteTim's notes, my school didn't close, although damn all was actually accomplished as we all processed what went on. I don't think it was a game day, and I think practice was cancelled that afternoon as well. Or possibly I just blew it off, although that doesn't sound like me.

 

"Not white" and "exotic" can mean a lot of things, especially if this is what you determined Darius looks like.  This guy, with Schluter as last name is not going to register as potential terrorist.  In fact, unless he tells people what his ethnicity is, I doubt anyone would automatically assume his exotic looks were Persian at all.  Put him in a uniform and he makes a striking naval officer.

 

At the risk of derailing the thread, to summarize the points Method and I both brought up, whatever Darius's last name, the fact that he's not White, and registers as not-White to all the characters that have described him, and so presumably also to other people he encounters, is going to be enough that people are going give him crap for being a terrorist and a towel-head. Method and I, individually and living entirely across the country from one another, experienced this phenomenon first hand, which is how we came to this conclusion. We are neither of us Iranian; I am Meztizo, and if I recall correctly Method is Filipino. So, what you saw as armor, that only an idiot is going to single someone out when they can't actually tell anything based on the color of their skin, we saw as something that would make Darius a target.

[Miles Long]

I don't remember it that way.  I remember the outrage at the attacks, but then I remember the solidarity that came afterward.  There was a general global outpouring of goodwill, and I remember feeling very proud to be an American, until George Bush fucked it all up by invading Iraq. 

 

I'll third or fourth that.  I remember traveling and the kindness we received when people found out we were Americans (even in Paris ).  Compare it to traveling a few years later where our reception was a lot cooler once they realized we were Americans.

 

At the risk of derailing the thread, to summarize the points Method and I both brought up, whatever Darius's last name, the fact that he's not White, and registers as not-White to all the characters that have described him, and so presumably also to other people he encounters, is going to be enough that people are going give him crap for being a terrorist and a towel-head. Method and I, individually and living entirely across the country from one another, experienced this phenomenon first hand, which is how we came to this conclusion. We are neither of us Iranian; I am Meztizo, and if I recall correctly Method is Filipino. So, what you saw as armor, that only an idiot is going to single someone out when they can't actually tell anything based on the color of their skin, we saw as something that would make Darius a target.

 

I haven't automatically jumped to the same conclusions about Darius that you and Method have because other than an extremely subjective description of Darius being not as white as the rest of the Schluters nothing about his character would link me to a group that was targeted.

 

If Darius had history of being the victim of racial slurs/discrimination or was actively involved in his biological father's culture or had happened to join the Muslim Community Association while attending Santa Clara I could see him getting mixed up in an attack; otherwise, it seemed unlikely to be a concern, not impossible just less likely.

 

If my conjecture is wrong and the story needs to go down that route then I will be just as intrigued by what and how it happened, as I would be if Darius remains safe and reasonably free from racial persecution.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Miles Long

[methodwriter85]

 

If Darius had history of being the victim of racial slurs/discrimination or was actively involved in his biological father's culture or had happened to join the Muslim Community Association while attending Santa Clara I could see him getting mixed up in an attack; otherwise, it seemed unlikely to be a concern, not impossible just less likely.

  It's not about it being an active history of discrimination. It's about it being the very real anti-Middle Eastern sentiment that crossed throughout the United States after 9/11. It's also not about whether or not Darius is involved with Islamic culture. It's about the fact that ignorant people make snap judgements about who someone is based on how they percieve the color of a person's skin (and it's been established since Man In Motion that Darius is not seen as white, not even his Uncle Nick who called him the n-word), and treat them accordingly. If you're "ambigious" racially in this country, you're open to a lot of assumptions from strangers about what you are. I've been asked if I'm black, Korean, Chinese, Mexican, Puerto Rican, etc etc. And Mark's even reflected that with Darius, because in nearly every time Darius has been described by a protagonist, the protagonist wonders what Darius's ethnicity is. That's why I picked an ethnically ambigious guy for Darius.

Edited July 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Miles Long]

  It's not about it being an active history of discrimination. It's about it being the very real anti-Middle Eastern sentiment that crossed throughout the United States after 9/11. It's also not about whether or not Darius is involved with Islamic culture. It's about the fact that ignorant people make snap judgements about who someone is based on how they percieve the color of a person's skin (and it's been established since Man In Motion that Darius is not seen as white, not even his Uncle Nick who called him the n-word), and treat them accordingly. If you're "ambigious" racially in this country, you're open to a lot of assumptions from strangers about what you are. I've been asked if I'm black, Korean, Chinese, Mexican, Puerto Rican, etc etc. And Mark's even reflected that with Darius, because in nearly every time Darius has been described by a protagonist, the protagonist wonders what Darius's ethnicity is. That's why I picked an ethnically ambigious guy for Darius.

 

I'm not denying the "very real anti-Middle Eastern sentiment that crossed throughout the United States after 9/11" and I will try to not take offense that you would infer that in any way.

 

My comments aren't directed to you or your experience.  They are my perspective about a fictional character that to me doesn't look as racially ambiguous as he does to you, regardless of the description.

 

I think we should go back to agreeing to disagree.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Miles Long

[PrivateTim]

If Darius had history of being the victim of racial slurs/discrimination or was actively involved in his biological father's culture or had happened to join the Muslim Community Association while attending Santa Clara I could see him getting mixed up in an attack; otherwise, it seemed unlikely to be a concern, not impossible just less likely.

 

Why would you assume Darius would have anything to do with Muslims? 60% of Iranian immigrants in the U.S. are not Muslim and in the time frame that Darius was born, immediately after the revolution, the largest number of immigrants were the persecuted religions of Judaism, the Baha'i, Zoroastrians and Christianity. Even the supporters of the Shah who fled were most likely secularists, not religious adherents of any sect.

[Mark Arbour]

Why would you assume Darius would have anything to do with Muslims? 60% of Iranian immigrants in the U.S. are not Muslim and in the time frame that Darius was born, immediately after the revolution, the largest number of immigrants were the persecuted religions of Judaism, the Baha'i, Zoroastrians and Christianity. Even the supporters of the Shah who fled were most likely secularists, not religious adherents of any sect.

 

I think Miles' point, which I got, was that unless Darius were actively involved with organizations that were religious (Muslim), he's likely to fly under the radar of all but the most idiotic of Americans.  Unfortunately, as you and I both know, that cadre encompasses a large number of people.

[Miles Long]

Why would you assume Darius would have anything to do with Muslims? 60% of Iranian immigrants in the U.S. are not Muslim and in the time frame that Darius was born, immediately after the revolution, the largest number of immigrants were the persecuted religions of Judaism, the Baha'i, Zoroastrians and Christianity. Even the supporters of the Shah who fled were most likely secularists, not religious adherents of any sect.

 

I haven't assumed that Darius has had anything to do with Muslims.  I was using that as an example as a reason that I could see him being targeted as having an association with groups that were targeted.  I picked the MCA because it is in Santa Clara where he went to school. To my knowledge Mark Arbour makes no reference whatsoever to Darius religious beliefs whatever they may be and I haven't made any assumptions about it one way or another.

 

I too can quote facts about a myriad of things that have nothing really to do with the point I was trying to make about my opinion about a character in a story.  It's clear my opinion is ruffling feathers and for those who want to jump to erroneous conclusions about what I meant perhaps we should stop derailing this forum and take it offline.

[Mark Arbour]

I haven't assumed that Darius has had anything to do with Muslims.  I was using that as an example as a reason that I could see him being targeted as having an association with groups that were targeted.  I picked the MCA because it is in Santa Clara where he went to school. To my knowledge Mark Arbour makes no reference whatsoever to Darius religious beliefs whatever they may be and I haven't made any assumptions about it one way or another.

 

I too can quote facts about a myriad of things that have nothing really to do with the point I was trying to make about my opinion about a character in a story.  It's clear my opinion is ruffling feathers and for those who want to jump to erroneous conclusions about what I meant perhaps we should stop derailing this forum and take it offline.

 

Miles, you really do need to post faster.     I get what you're saying.  Don't worry about it.

[Miles Long]

Miles, you really do need to post faster.     I get what you're saying.  Don't worry about it.

 

 LOL!  What can I say offline life keeps getting in the way.

[B1ue]

And, backing away slowly, something that occurred to me was that, if Darius did join the military, he'd almost have to be an officer, correct? Same for Gathan, actually. They're too wealthy to be enlisted, from what I understand. The thinking, as it's been explained to me, is that enlisted with a lot of money tend to be too risk-adverse to be reliable troop, and both recruiters and personnel officers try to nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem. Not that Gathan actually is risk-adverse, however rich he is, but whatever. One of my colleague's battle-buddies won the lottery while enlisted about, oh, ten years ago, and they almost immediately showed him the door.

 

I couldn't tell you if that's an actual policy or just a guideline some follow and others don't. It's just something that might come up.

[MJ85]

And, backing away slowly, something that occurred to me was that, if Darius did join the military, he'd almost have to be an officer, correct? Same for Gathan, actually. They're too wealthy to be enlisted, from what I understand. The thinking, as it's been explained to me, is that enlisted with a lot of money tend to be too risk-adverse to be reliable troop, and both recruiters and personnel officers try to nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem. Not that Gathan actually is risk-adverse, however rich he is, but whatever. One of my colleague's battle-buddies won the lottery while enlisted about, oh, ten years ago, and they almost immediately showed him the door.

 

I couldn't tell you if that's an actual policy or just a guideline some follow and others don't. It's just something that might come up.

 

If Darius really really really wanted to join that badly, and what you say is true, wouldn't that ultimately just become one more thing that he'd fight against just to get in and stay in? Doesn't seem like he'd just let that deter him.

Edited July 13, 2013 by MJ85

[B1ue]

If Darius really really really wanted to join that badly, and what you say is true, wouldn't that ultimately just become one more thing that he'd fight against just to get in and stay in? Doesn't seem like he'd just let that deter him.

Agreed. And it might not even be a factor. But I think if it was a factor, seeking a commission rather than an enlistment might make it a non-issue.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm not aware of a way to enter the military as an officer without having completed an undergraduate degree, but I'm no expert on the subject.

[B1ue]

Well, it's technically possible, but no, you're correct that it's just not done, to my knowledge. Outside of Warrants, as far as I know, and that certainly wouldn't apply. And, to be honest, I thought Darius was older than he apparently is during this time period, and would have finished his degree anyways. Apparently not.

 

Like I said, I don't know if his wealth would be a factor, but I think the most plausible reaction he'd get to trying to enlist under his own name would be a suggestion that he finish his degree, join an ROTC program in the meantime, and join afterwards. And, oh, switch majors to something either business or hard science related, if he isn't already one of those. Not to say an Arts degree wouldn't be useful, but some are prejudiced. It's stupid, and certainly not all pervasive, but what can you do?

Edited July 13, 2013 by B1ue

[methodwriter85]

     I'm the "keeper of ages" so to speak, and we have Darius's birthdate set as January 19th, 1982. He's currently going into his sophomore year, and should graduate for the spring 2004 school year. Although it is possible for him to graduate a semester or a year early, taking him into the first year of the Iraq War. But since Darius is a transfer to UCLA, that seems really unlikely he could graduate early. (Although that in itself had me scratching my head...didn't his first-semester grades at Santa Clara suck? Why would have UCLA taken him?)

[B1ue]

Oh, that's easy. UCs have the discretion to waive or lower requirements to admission on a student by student basis. I, in fact, got in on such criteria (in my case, they let my SATs outweigh my overall GPA, I'd guess), although I didn't actually know what the heck that piece of paper was for some time.

 

So, basically money, and an earnest promise that he'd shape up to the right admission officer or Dean would get him in.

[methodwriter85]

   I kind of wish I had grown up in California then, because the UC system sounds like an absurdly easy system to get into, barring Berkley.

 

 

I think Miles' point, which I got, was that unless Darius were actively involved with organizations that were religious (Muslim), he's likely to fly under the radar of all but the most idiotic of Americans.  Unfortunately, as you and I both know, that cadre encompasses a large number of people.

 

     Damned true. Check out the "Racism is alive and well" montage from USA Big Brother 15:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok9c5Sv9xPc

 

     The thing that you've got to keep in mind is that racism isn't something you can reason with or put some kind of logic to. For example, in the comment about how Candice couldn't be seen in the dark...Candice Stewart isn't really all that dark. She's not. But that doesn't matter to a racist. The same deal- it doesn't matter if Darius isn't that dark and isn't praising Allah. All that it takes is someone with a prejudice to be put in a situation where they can push their hate onto someone, and having people who sit around and do nothing (or laugh and join in) when that happens. CBS is editing out a lot of the racist stuff from their broadcast, but the feed has caught some really incredible stuff.

 

     Anyway...back to the thread...I really do wonder if Mark will have some characters get seriously injured in 9/11. It'd be interesting to see a character deal with a traumatic brain injury...that's a place Mark's never gone before. I'm also thinking that it'd be interesting if we lost a character that hasn't been in the story for awhile.

Edited July 13, 2013 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

Matt's parents fly commercial. Not sure about Wades family.

[methodwriter85]

    Wade's family doesn't strike me as people who'd buy a private jet even though they could afford it. They'd probably be old-school fiscally conservative types. If you've noticed with Wade, he's much less likely to "splurge" on things- other than his big dinner for the hockey team, we haven't seen Wade spend lavishly on things that weren't solid investments. I'm guessing that's because the Danfields usually don't, in stark contrast to how the Cramptons and Schluters buy fancy cars left and right for their friends.

 

   There is a shot that a Danfield could find themselves at Dulles Airport on 9/11, I think...

Edited July 13, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

    Wade's family doesn't strike me as people who'd buy a private jet even though they could afford it. They'd probably be old-school fiscally conservative types. If you've noticed with Wade, he's much less likely to "splurge" on things- other than his big dinner for the hockey team, we haven't seen Wade spend lavishly on things that weren't solid investments. I'm guessing that's because the Danfields usually don't, in stark contrast to how the Cramptons and Schluters buy fancy cars left and right for their friends.

 

   There is a shot that a Danfield could find themselves at Dulles Airport on 9/11, I think...

 

I think that the Danfields fly on private planes whenever they can, but their concern with flying on them wouldn't stem from financial pressures, it would stem from political pressures.  It's not good to be seen as an elitist when you have constituents to answer to. 

 

A personal anecdote:  I was once flying home and then-Senator Paul Simon was on my flight.  I chatted with him at the gate, and since at that time I had scads of upgrades, offered to get him bumped up to first class.  He declined, saying that he only flew coach.  Now granted, Simon was a Democrat (smiles at Tim), but I think those perception issues can be important.  His constituents on the plane saw him hanging out in the cheap seats with them. 

[methodwriter85]

      I do like how there's this stark difference between the Danfields, who's wealth likely goes back  to the 17th/18th century tobbacco plantations, and the Schluters, who are "newer" money. (They were always small-town affluent but not someone to reckon with on a national level until the Post World War-II era.) The Schluters are much more conspicous about throwing around and spending money, whereas we really haven't seen that from the Danfields. Everything that Wade has spent significant money on either involved child custody arrangements, or investments. I think it makes sense though that as people who probably have been involved in Virginia politics since the days of John Smith, they're acutely aware of public image, whereas the Schluters kind of just do what they want, for the most part.

Edited July 13, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

      I do like how there's this stark difference between the Danfields, who's wealth likely goes back  to the 17th/18th century tobbacco plantations, and the Schluters, who are "newer" money. (They were always small-town affluent but not someone to reckon with on a national level until the Post World War-II era.) The Schluters are much more conspicous about throwing around and spending money, whereas we really haven't seen that from the Danfields. Everything that Wade has spent significant money on either involved child custody arrangements, or investments. I think it makes sense though that as people who probably have been involved in Virginia politics since the days of John Smith, they're acutely aware of public image, whereas the Schluters kind of just do what they want, for the most part.

 

That's an interesting viewpoint, but you could draw an even closer comparison by looking at JP, who embodies much more of that old money philosophy (as does his daughter) than Stef or Brad.