The Last Taboo

[MJ85]

In many (most) places (not including Nifty), sexual activity among younger teens (like 13, 14) and pre-teens will get flagged as kiddy porn. Just a thought to keep in mind.

[W_L]

We are biologically wired to avoid close relatives as sex partners. Something about their smell that we are generally automatically turned off by in most cases. I remember Bel Ami made a movie a couple years ago where two twin brothers had sex. They were both drop dead sexy as fuck, but when you put the two together it was just like, bleh. Disgusting. There is a reason nature predisposed us to avoid it. It fucks up the gene pool! Brothers playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" is one thing, but full on sex is totally different.

 

Discussing incest like its an okay thing just puts a bad image on the gay community to mainstream society. While not quite as bad, its along the same pitiful lines as Nifty's intergenerational section, where they have stories featuring child molestation. It just reinforces negative stereotypes. 

 

I saw the one from Bel Ami you are referring and it was bad, no real emotions.

 

However, I have to point out to an article from Salon, which highlights the "Gay Porn Taboo" issue.

 

http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/twincest/

 

I don't know, they seem real in the movies, but it could be fake and they're just two really good  twin actors.

 

However, what if it is true?

 

Twin gay guys being lovers is a taboo, but is it really something any of us need to put a wall around and point to as disgusting or maligned, if it is merely their interest in one another.

 

On a personal note, I get what you mean too on what you mean Matt. When I visited my 1st cousin, who offered me half his bed, I chose to sleep on the cold floor. He doesn't know I'm gay, but he's open minded and know he won't care. I don't find him attractive and while I question his sexuality, I didn't entertain any sexual interest in him even for mere sex.

[Thorn Wilde]

Parental figures having sexual relations with 10-12 years old. That's just... sick. That's my opinion. 

 

Full grown adults have absolutely no business engaging in sexual activity with kids below the age of consent, IMO, be it incest or anything else. But kids who explore and try things out with their peers is another matter entirely.

[Thorn Wilde]

In many (most) places (not including Nifty), sexual activity among younger teens (like 13, 14) and pre-teens will get flagged as kiddy porn. Just a thought to keep in mind.

 

That's ridiculous. I mean, yes, if someone writes about sexual activity among kids that age and make it titillating for adults, in a PWP sense for instance, then yes, that's definitely bordering on child pornography. However, art, story-telling, when there's a point to it and a reason for it, and it's not pornographic, is another matter entirely, and to flag that as kiddy porn just because it happens to contain a 12-13 year old being, well, a 12-13 year old, that's truly ridiculous, puritanical and just plain stupid, IMO.

[Zombie]

I think I've discovered another taboo, actually: The idea that kids under the age of 13 are capable of sexuality and sexual exploration. 

 

Correct.

 

Is it that society is so repressed that this is something that we just do not talk about? Do people feel like it's something to be ashamed of, that we're intruding if we admit to ourselves that other people probably had these experiences too? Or have we repressed these experiences all together so we somehow believe that this is unrealistic? 

 

Correct again. Whether it's due to shame, repression, denial or some of the many other things that fuck us up by the time we reach adulthood, I don't know.

 

This is an area that gets people really wound up, and for good reasons. But to avoid misunderstandings about positions taken it might be helpful to clarify whether we're talking about real human behaviour, titillating stuff, or serious stuff - because it's not clear to me what all the posts in this thread have been about.

 

Children do have sexual thoughts and sometimes act on them. This is fact. I know. I was sexually aware well before puberty. I knew what turned me on well before I reached double figures and I had my first sexual experience with another boy when I was 11 and a bit he was 13. It was mutual, there was no pressure, I loved it and I'm glad it happened. And I'm sure I played show me yours / mine much earlier. I don't think there's anything exceptional in my experiences and it's normal if it happens and normal if it doesn't But as we grow into adults our childhood experiences - if we had them - are all "forgotten" and the wonder of discovering sex is replaced by all kinds of psycho-sexual hangups and horror at the idea that children might be thinking / doing anything sexual. Just as for children the very idea that their mum and dad ever had sex is just gross and disgusting!

 

So, coming back to fiction, do I want to read titillating stories about this kind of activity? No. Do I question those who write / read titillating stories about this kind of activity? Yes.  Might I want to read fiction about this kind of activity if it was not titillating? Quite possibly if it was, say, an autobiography or a story where there was compelling plot justification. The important thing here is that the writing is not titillating but the activity serves a purpose such as humour or future plot development. Which comes back to what Mann said earlier about it being "handled properly".

 

[Thorn Wilde]

Correct again. Whether it's due to shame, repression, denial or some of the many other things that fuck us up by the time we reach adulthood, I don't know.

 

This is an area that gets people really wound up, and for good reasons. But to avoid misunderstandings about positions taken it might be helpful to clarify whether we're talking about real human behaviour, titillating stuff, or serious stuff - because it's not clear to me what all the posts in this thread have been about.

 

Children do have sexual thoughts and sometimes act on them. This is fact. I know. I was sexually aware well before puberty. I knew what turned me on well before I reached double figures and I had my first sexual experience with another boy when I was 11 and a bit he was 13. It was mutual, there was no pressure, I loved it and I'm glad it happened. And I'm sure I played show me yours / mine much earlier. I don't think there's anything exceptional in my experiences and it's normal if it happens and normal if it doesn't But as we grow into adults our childhood experiences - if we had them - are all "forgotten" and the wonder of discovering sex is replaced by all kinds of psycho-sexual hangups and horror at the idea that children might be thinking / doing anything sexual. Just as for children the very idea that their mum and dad ever had sex is just gross and disgusting!

 

So, coming back to fiction, do I want to read titillating stories about this kind of activity? No. Do I question those who write / read titillating stories about this kind of activity? Yes.  Might I want to read fiction about this kind of activity if it was not titillating? Quite possibly if it was, say, an autobiography or a story where there was compelling plot justification. The important thing here is that the writing is not titillating but the activity serves a purpose such as humour or future plot development. Which comes back to what Mann said earlier about it being "handled properly".

 

 

We are talking real human behaviour. We are talking storytelling, not pornography.

 

I would never write a story containing characters that age in a sexual situation that was in any way meant to be titillating to adults. That's definitely not what I did with Firsts. Almost everything in that story was awkward, confused, and approached from a humorous angle. My goal is realism, and if I am to explore one of my characters' past, then I am likely to get into the good and the bad, the awkward, the misguided, and the emotional. That's what Firsts is about. It is not porn. It's not erotica. It's storytelling.

 

When I was in my early teens, my mum gave me a couple of Swedish YA novels with really properly young characters exploring and figuring out their sexuality. I have never read a YA novel in English that does this in an honest way. That's what I'm trying to do, in everything I write, really. Come at it from a starkly honest perspective. Describe things that do happen. These are things that are real. Things that are true. Stories that deserve to be told. That's my opinion.

[Zombie]

We are talking real human behaviour. We are talking storytelling

 

Wow, I was referring to "positions taken" by all posters in this thread. My apologies but the previous post wasn't all about you - only the bits immediately after the quote boxes

 

Just to clarify - and again this isn't about you - "real human behaviour" is what happens in terms of fact or anthropology, with many examples from published works such as Kinsey and Morris, whereas fiction is by definition "created". Important not to conflate the two.

[Thorn Wilde]

Wow, I was referring to "positions taken" by all posters in this thread. My apologies but the previous post wasn't all about you - only the bits immediately after the quote boxes

 

Just to clarify - and again this isn't about you - "real human behaviour" is what happens in terms of fact or anthropology, with many examples from published works such as Kinsey and Morris, whereas fiction is by definition "created". Important not to conflate the two.

 

I didn't think that your entire post was referring to me, but since you asked for clarification, I thought I'd clarify my position, as well as address some of your points. 

 

Can real human behaviour not be explored through fiction? Is that not, ultimately, what fiction does?

Edited September 23, 2013 by Thorn Wilde

[Zombie]

Can real human behaviour not be explored through fiction? Is that not, ultimately, what fiction does?

 

Er, is this directed at anyone in particular?

 

[Thorn Wilde]

Er, is this directed at anyone in particular?

 

 

Just wondering, since you seemed to be drawing such a clear line between real human behaviour and fiction. I mean, when you tell a story, you describe the world and use what you know about human behaviour to make your characters as real as possible. And when a scholar describes human behaviour, he or she will inadvertently do so through the glasses of what they already know or believe to be true about people. As such, these areas overlap, do they not? As writers, we make up the situations and we make up the characters, but if we are too liberal in making up how our characters behave when faced with one situation or another, the story becomes unbelievable.

[Zombie]

Just wondering, since you seemed to be drawing such a clear line between real human behaviour and fiction.

 

Well, that's because there is - fiction is created, real life happens So when people post views on one or the other it's important to know which one they're referring to [see above].

[Sasha Distan]

I think there are plenty of good points on here, and in a way it all reverts back to the usual problem.

 

Why is it that when a story contains "taboo" (please note heavy use of "_" in there) material for valid, plot driven, non titillating reasons, it is either quietly sidelined or actively dismissed?

 

and i think Thorn is right, if anything mutual sexual exploratory activity between pre-teens is possibly the only thing worse received in this community than incest. However, i think i might have worked out the reasons for this...

 

i used to post on StoriesOnline (SOL), a sexually explicit website where everything goes, and i mean everything. stories involving any age, any gender or combination of genders and species, etc etc. however there is an extensive list of codes as a checlist system, and you can check as many as apply to your story. it was the only place where i never recieved any of those "this is disgusting and wrong" type reviews because you knew exactly where you were going in. if the tags said vore and you don't like vore, you just don't read. the mod's are incredibly hot on coding-errors and read everything before it is posted. every story is moderated before it goes live to make sure the author is using the correct coding. 

 

Because on GA we have to chose just six tags from a rather big list, and people don't always read them, they get into things they don't like without realising it. at that point, human embarrassment just makes you click away without saying anything to the author at all. While i understand that GA does not need anything like as overarching a system as SOL does, maybe we should try and use the codes to better affect generally as currently they are rather sidelined.

[Former Member]

See, I think you're wrong when you say that people don't read the tags.  I read them.  And I know a lot of people who also read them and use them as a guide.  Six tags is certainly enough I think to cover your basics.  If the tag says incest, I'm probably not going to read it.  If the tag says rape, I'm probably not going to read it.  It's not something I want to read.  The same goes for kids having sex.  I agree that it's 'storytelling' and it may not be for titillation.  But if I also see "Mature" as the rating?  I'm probably just going to save myself, just in case.  (Considering the fact that on GA, the ratings are really only for sexual content, last I checked)  You're right that it does happen in real life.  That's it's human nature and it's about growing and discovery.  It's about awkwardness and fumbling and all the stuff that makes us laugh later in life.  That doesn't necessarily mean I want to read about it in graphic terms and I really don't.  It might be the fact that I have younger siblings (one of which is MUCH younger than I am) and really the last thing I want to do is imagine them having sex.  Because that's probably what's going to happen if I read something like that.

 

Just my two cents as a reader...or in this case, non-reader

[Zombie]

See, I think you're wrong when you say that people don't read the tags.  I read them.  And I know a lot of people who also read them and use them as a guide.  Six tags is certainly enough I think to cover your basics.  If the tag says incest, I'm probably not going to read it.  If the tag says rape, I'm probably not going to read it.  It's not something I want to read.  The same goes for kids having sex.  I agree that it's 'storytelling' and it may not be for titillation.  But if I also see "Mature" as the rating?  I'm probably just going to save myself, just in case.  (Considering the fact that on GA, the ratings are really only for sexual content, last I checked)  You're right that it does happen in real life.  That's it's human nature and it's about growing and discovery.  It's about awkwardness and fumbling and all the stuff that makes us laugh later in life.  That doesn't necessarily mean I want to read about it in graphic terms and I really don't.  It might be the fact that I have younger siblings (one of which is MUCH younger than I am) and really the last thing I want to do is imagine them having sex.  Because that's probably what's going to happen if I read something like that.

 

Just my two cents as a reader...or in this case, non-reader

 

"Graphic terms". Interesting phrase. It doesn't mean the same as "non-titillating".

 

Well here's a couple of thoughts.

 

1. Murder

This is the most heinous crime. Do "normal" well-adjusted people like murder? I think not. Do they want to read about it? Hell yes - it's one of the most popular fiction genres.

What's going on?

 

2. Graphic violence

Do "normal" well-adjusted people like graphic violence? I don't think so. Do they want to see it? Hell yes - look at the box office for Quentin Tarantino

What's going on?

[Thorn Wilde]

Well said, Zombie.

 

Also, I would like to add that there's a HUGE difference between kids involved in situations of sexual exploration and kids outright having sex. Not the same thing at all, IMO. And there's no tag for it either way. There's the under-18 tag, but that involves perfectly legal, perfectly socially acceptable situations between kids above the age of consent in almost any given country in Europe.

 

I sometimes think the tags can be a bit extensive. I mean, yes, one should definitely use them for sensitive content, but sometimes tags can be spoilers and ruin the surprise, which can be a little bit sad from a storytelling perspective. Other times, I think 6 tags is way too little, and I wish there was an option for adding freeform tags, like on AO3 for instance.

[W_L]

Human beings are still animals beneath the vestments of civilization. We still like sports brawls and hunting despite other factors like communication and plentiful food supply.

 

Human nature goes both ways when it comes to violence and murder zombie, theyre not taboos.

[Zombie]

violence and murder zombie, theyre not taboos.

 

Taboo is merely a cultural construct. There are no universal taboos. Which means we're not all talking about the same thing . Some are commenting on cultural taboos while others are commenting on matters of distaste, disgust or illegality.  

 

[joann414]

Taboo is merely a cultural construct. There are no universal taboos. Which means we're not all talking about the same thing . Some are commenting on cultural taboos while others are commenting on matters of distaste, disgust or illegality.  

 

I agree with this.  No two minds think alike when reading.  Taboo to some may just seem mildly sexual to others.  Young teens having sex may seem fine to some readers, but off putting to others.  It's simply how the actions are perceived by the reader. JMO

[mickey1952]

I really don't see the problem with gay incest between siblings, or cousins, for that matter. Incest between generations or heterosexual incest is something else again. Generational incest, even if it were proven consensual, is too close to abuse or pedophilia for comfort. And heterosexual incest has another name: inbreeding. And we all know where that road eventually leads to. It may sound hypocritical or contradictory to some, but consensual gay incest between siblings or cousins essentially boils down to the old adage, "No harm, no foul". Not to mention that it sounds hot as hell! He-he!

Edited September 25, 2013 by mickey1952

[Thorn Wilde]

I really don't see the problem with gay incest between siblings, or cousins, for that matter. Incest between generations or heterosexual incest is something else again. Generational incest, even if it were proven consensual, is too close to abuse or pedophilia for comfort. And heterosexual incest has another name: inbreeding. And we all know where that road eventually leads to. It may sound hypocritical or contradictory to some, but consensual gay incest between siblings or cousins essentially boils down to the old adage, "No harm, no foul". Not to mention that it sounds hot as hell! He-he!

 

Can I just point out that heterosexual sibling incest does not have to result in inbreeding? There is such a thing as birth control, condoms, and some people are sterile. So, I have to admit I see that as a double standard, to be honest.

[mickey1952]

Can I just point out that heterosexual sibling incest does not have to result in inbreeding? There is such a thing as birth control, condoms, and some people are sterile. So, I have to admit I see that as a double standard, to be honest.

Point taken, my friend. But I still believe, in the broader context, that I raise some valid points. Thanks for taking the time to respond! The world would be pretty dull if we all agreed with each other on everything.

[Thorn Wilde]

Point taken, my friend. But I still believe, in the broader context, that I raise some valid points. Thanks for taking the time to respond! The world would be pretty dull if we all agreed with each other on everything.

 

Indeed it would be, and you raised several very valid points. That particular argument just sort of reminded me of anti-gay marriage proponents who say, 'Gays can't have kids, so why would they need to marry?' to which the only logical response is, 'Should we also ban marriage for straight couples who don't want children or are unable to conceive?'

[CassieQ]

I think there are plenty of good points on here, and in a way it all reverts back to the usual problem.

 

Why is it that when a story contains "taboo" (please note heavy use of "_" in there) material for valid, plot driven, non titillating reasons, it is either quietly sidelined or actively dismissed?

 

and i think Thorn is right, if anything mutual sexual exploratory activity between pre-teens is possibly the only thing worse received in this community than incest. However, i think i might have worked out the reasons for this...

 

i used to post on StoriesOnline (SOL), a sexually explicit website where everything goes, and i mean everything. stories involving any age, any gender or combination of genders and species, etc etc. however there is an extensive list of codes as a checlist system, and you can check as many as apply to your story. it was the only place where i never recieved any of those "this is disgusting and wrong" type reviews because you knew exactly where you were going in. if the tags said vore and you don't like vore, you just don't read. the mod's are incredibly hot on coding-errors and read everything before it is posted. every story is moderated before it goes live to make sure the author is using the correct coding. 

 

Because on GA we have to chose just six tags from a rather big list, and people don't always read them, they get into things they don't like without realising it. at that point, human embarrassment just makes you click away without saying anything to the author at all. While i understand that GA does not need anything like as overarching a system as SOL does, maybe we should try and use the codes to better affect generally as currently they are rather sidelined.

 

 

I've been watching this very interesting thread for a while, but I'm not quite sure where Sasha is going with her comment about tags.  

 

I agree with Myiege.  I also read the tags.  But in my mind, tags are used more to find the type of stories you ARE looking for, instead of warning readers away from stories.  

 

Unlike SOL, GA doesn't have tags for subjects such as incest, beastiality, cannibalism, etc, because they are usually in violation of GAs content rules.  GA focuses on providing quality gay fiction, therefore it is not an "anything goes" type website that needs that type of extensive coding.  

 

In regards to "Home Grown" it was not the tags that turned me off of reading it, it was the molestation and incest warnings.  So I think readers still know what they are getting into, even if they ignored the tags.  But if you write anything that is taboo, whether you agree with the reasoning behind it or not, I think the writer should be prepared the accept that not all readers are going to love it.  Of course, that can be said for almost any type of story, but with taboo subjects, especially.

[Warrior1]

Frankly, due to inbreeding problems, I don't mind it remaining illegal (though gay men/women is different, and also I understand some not having any control over their feelings) but  death penalty for these things seem a bit too much.

[Zombie]

Yikes, death penalty?? For perpetrators, writers, readers  ... or all of 'em?

 

 

.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Zombie