Flux

[Headstall]

OK Blue...I am not sure why you need me to explain this small part when you already disagree with my post but anyway...

 

I will say that it was in part a reaction to your comment that "some people" "will deliberately place love on a secondary tier" and that there is nothing wrong with that. As a personal observation, to me that would not be love...and i don't think that is what Zach is doing at all. Him and Will have an understanding about the importance of Zach's career and where Will fits in...in other words there is a balance that they recognize needs to be there.As i further stated in that post,Will has kept his part in accepting and supporting Zach's potential career and Zach had Will and Barry agreed to a deal that they could supposedly all live with...hence the balance.Part of this balance was Zach's PROMISE to go to Europe with JP and Will...and as we all know, that promise has been broken and the balance destroyed...Will is not asking for anything more than what was promised him, and yes i am sure that Zach agreeing to the exhibition has really hurt Will.I don't know how you got from that sliver of my post that I thought Zach should reprioritize his life, put parts of his career on hold,blow off responsibilities etc in order to please Will. My point was this out of the blue exhibition is an attempt by Wally,Clara and Barry to exert control over Zach and keep him away from Will.For Zach's OWN good he needs to recognize this and take control back. If he doesn't, they will control his personal life as well as his career and there will be no reason for priorities or balance. That's the real issue here.And that is Will's issue as well...he wants Zach to succeed and be happy because he loves him...but he won't be a doormat either.I also do not agree with your response to the other post by Methodwriter. I think it very much matters that Will is a guy...there is added impetus, especially on Wally and Clara's part, to keep Zach and Will apart...just my humble opinion...Gary

[Headstall]

had should have been and,on the third line of the previous post...

[Mark Arbour]

Here's the thing, he has made room for both Will and football in his life. Will simply is not being treated as if he had the same priority level as football. Sometimes that's the choice someone makes. Songs may sell us that all we need is love, but some people need something a little firmer to stand on, and will deliberately place love on a secondary tier. There isn't anything wrong with that, however much it may suck for Will, or for Zach in the long term, especially since Zach was both up front and honest throughout.

 

And, with all due respect Mark, it's not Zach that's threatening his relationship with Will, it's Will himself. Will knew the score when they started dating, or thought he knew, I suppose. I've been reading the last couple chapters as representative of someone that is refusing to get that they are second place in someone else's life, which is running parallel to similar drama that Matt and Wade are going through. It doesn't even have to mean Will feels more for Zach, Will is just able to place that relationship as a higher priority than Zach is, just like Matt would be willing to place the relationship with Wade on a higher priority than Wade would be willing to reciprocate.

 

I think that the big issue for Will is that a promise was made by both Zach and Barry.  They made a commitment that Zach could go to Europe, and Will motivated JP to adjust his own schedule to accommodate them.  Will understands quite clearly where he stands from a priority standpoint, but when there was a promise made, that's when he expects Zach to honor it, and to make room for Will in his life. 

 

It would be easy to discount that, and say that Will should understand, but I don't think, if I were in Will's position, I would be all that mellow about it either. 

Edited June 5, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[Daddydavek]

Well Mark chose the route of Matt having the jock to jock talk with Zach and it worked really well. I think that Matt making Zach think things through on his own and to make his own decision worked out perfect.  That Zach told his 'advisor' who caused the problem to fix it or he was fired and then fired him when he couldn't fix it, says volumes. 

 

That he is seeking legal assistance to have a new guardian appointed and wants Frank to take on that responsibility is logical and despite Frank's misgivings and not really wanting to be involved, it seems to be a solid choice.  Poor Frank, his life is going to get so much more interesting dealing with teenage drama which he has studiously avoided in the past.  

 

Will summed it up perfectly.  Don't make promises to him that you can't keep.  

 

Will they ever get to Europe??

Edited June 6, 2014 by Daddydavek

[John Prz]

Mhhh. Bastille day is going to be interesting.    (right now I'm a perfect replica of Mister Burns while he do that move with his fingers)

 

Did Matt asked Cam to be there? I think he didn't... which is strange... or not? (It would be interesting seeing how Matt, Wade and Cam would act. and what Cam would do the day after when he see how Matt and Wade are still really close.)

 

I want to see after this Zack being jealous beacuse of Tony how they're going to be when they meet. Is going to be an interesting day for Will.

 

I think Zack is worried about Tony because of the problems he's having with will. but since we know that he's going to court against his parents, Tony looks less than a problem to their relationship. And Will is not going to fall back for Tony, at least I don't see it happening.

 

I loved Brad line about Will's love for  court-rooms.

[Timothy M.]

Reading the latest chapter again, I noticed one sentence in Brad's part which made me annoyed with him:

 

That got my attention, because if there was a problem with Zach, it most likely also involved Will. God only knew what he’d done to piss off Wally and Clara now.

 

Why does Brad automatically assume any trouble between Zach and his parents is due to something Will's done ? Not the sign of a loyal parent, even if he knows Will so well including his faults. JP at least asked to be told in a neutral manner which did not reveal who he thought might be to blame. Not that Brad didn't ask fair questions too, but I wonder if his last question was another sign of him worrying about Will making Wally and Clara angry.

Why doesn't he worry about how Will feels ? Is this because he think Will is smart enough to deal with this on his own ?

 

Or am I being overly sensitive on behalf of Will ? I know I'm biased, so I'd like to hear the opinions of readers who're neutral or even antagonistic to Will. Did anyone else notice Brad's tendency to immediately think of Will being to blame ? Maybe just from agreeing with him ? (I won't argue with you if you did, I just want to know if you had the same thought as me )

[Mark Arbour]

Reading the latest chapter again, I noticed one sentence in Brad's part which made me annoyed with him:

 

That got my attention, because if there was a problem with Zach, it most likely also involved Will. God only knew what he’d done to piss off Wally and Clara now.

 

Why does Brad automatically assume any trouble between Zach and his parents is due to something Will's done ? Not the sign of a loyal parent, even if he knows Will so well including his faults. JP at least asked to be told in a neutral manner which did not reveal who he thought might be to blame. Not that Brad didn't ask fair questions too, but I wonder if his last question was another sign of him worrying about Will making Wally and Clara angry.

Why doesn't he worry about how Will feels ? Is this because he think Will is smart enough to deal with this on his own ?

 

Or am I being overly sensitive on behalf of Will ? I know I'm biased, so I'd like to hear the opinions of readers who're neutral or even antagonistic to Will. Did anyone else notice Brad's tendency to immediately think of Will being to blame ? Maybe just from agreeing with him ? (I won't argue with you if you did, I just want to know if you had the same thought as me )

 

I think that Brad's thought was a knee-jerk reaction to the situation.  It's probably not an unfounded suspicion.  But the key thing to remember here is that this is only what Brad THOUGHT, not what Brad SAID.  That's a huge difference.  His mind may fluctuate to all of these different things or conclusions, but it's not really fair to judge him for that.  It's really only fair to judge him based on his conclusions, and what ultimately comes out of his mouth.

[Timothy M.]

I think that Brad's thought was a knee-jerk reaction to the situation.  It's probably not an unfounded suspicion.  But the key thing to remember here is that this is only what Brad THOUGHT, not what Brad SAID.  That's a huge difference.  His mind may fluctuate to all of these different things or conclusions, but it's not really fair to judge him for that.  It's really only fair to judge him based on his conclusions, and what ultimately comes out of his mouth.

 

Oh yes I certainly noticed Brad never voiced anything to betray his initial thought. And I'm assuming after Frank's explanation Brad will come to the logical conclusion about this new conflict not being Will's fault. Also I'm hoping Brad's clever enough never to reveal his 'knee-jerk reaction' to Will (though I can just imagine him going "what did you do NOW?"   and the subsequent eruption of Will the Volcano).

 

But I wonder how many of these fights between Zach and his parents we'll have to witness before Brad finally starts trusting his son. No matter what Will's faults are, I still find Brad's attitude illoyal and less than caring. Why isn't his first thought for Will's welfare (as relates to his relationship with Zach) rather than who is to blame?

 

Oh well, you'll have to pardon my ranting on Will's behalf. I do like Brad and think you're right in saying he should mainly be judged on how he acts and speaks (like making a joke about Will liking going to court, when we all know how traumatic that episode was for his son   ). And I'm certainly looking forward to Brad shipping Wally and Clara off to Siberia and dumping Barry somewhere nasty on the way.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Timothy M.

[B1ue]

I think that Brad's thought was a knee-jerk reaction to the situation.  It's probably not an unfounded suspicion.  But the key thing to remember here is that this is only what Brad THOUGHT, not what Brad SAID.  That's a huge difference.  His mind may fluctuate to all of these different things or conclusions, but it's not really fair to judge him for that.  It's really only fair to judge him based on his conclusions, and what ultimately comes out of his mouth.

I hadn't read that passage in that manner, but now that someone has brought it up, I do think that anything Brad thinks is on the table for discussion, as long as we can actually see him think it. Edit: Looking at what he thinks, but does not act on, is also something to be kept in mind.

 

And while not an unfounded accusation, it does show a certain amount of bias against Will's self-control. But it also shows a bias against thinking Wally and Clara would actually stand up to either their son or Will. Brad's initial assumption is that the Hayes are reacting against Will's action, because Will is a type A, and they are not. In fact, even in this instance, they aren't the primary instigators of the drama, although they are bringing most of the pressure.

 

It's kind of sad that they are coming up against Will and Zach so hard. I like the idea of them as a family, and admired them when they were first introduced. While not poor, they weren't well off, but still found the generosity to take in kids that weren't theirs, and raised those kids to feel like they were full member of the family (another feat that isn't easy). I wonder what it is about Zach that has them so discombobulated.

Edited June 7, 2014 by B1ue

[Daddydavek]

 

 

It's kind of sad that they are coming up against Will and Zach so hard. I like the idea of them as a family, and admired them when they were first introduced. While not poor, they weren't well off, but still found the generosity to take in kids that weren't there's, and raised those kids to feel like they were full member of the family (another feat that isn't easy). I wonder what it is about Zach that has them so discombobulated.

 

 

 

I think as written, Wally and Clara are good solid blue collar people who value work, respect, discipline and what they perceive as middle class values.  In other words, their views are a bit parochial as they never had the experience of college or of travel.  Zach is the star athlete and they cannot see anything that distracts him from that as having any worth or value.  That he has defied them and continues to do so, rankles and is not something that appreciate as normal for teenagers, at least not one that they raised....

[Headstall]

With regards to Brad's thought about what Will may have done to piss Wally and Clara off....I think we should remember that it is Will's plan to take the heat and have Wally and Clara perceive Will as the bad guy in order to take pressure off of Zach whenever there is an issue between Zach and his parents...so it is only natural that Brad, knowing of this tactic, would wonder if Will may have done something to DELIBERATELY make them mad at him. I really don't think that Brad is dissing his son at all in thinking of that possibility.

[PrivateTim]

That got my attention, because if there was a problem with Zach, it most likely also involved Will. God only knew what he’d done to piss off Wally and Clara now.

 

Why does Brad automatically assume any trouble between Zach and his parents is due to something Will's done ? Not the sign of a loyal parent, even if he knows Will so well including his faults. JP at least asked to be told in a neutral manner which did not reveal who he thought might be to blame. Not that Brad didn't ask fair questions too, but I wonder if his last question was another sign of him worrying about Will making Wally and Clara angry.

 

Why doesn't he worry about how Will feels ? Is this because he think Will is smart enough to deal with this on his own ?

I hadn't read that passage in that manner, but now that someone has brought it up, I do think that anything Brad thinks is on the table for discussion, as long as we can actually see him think it. Edit: Looking at what he thinks, but does not act on, is also something to be kept in mind.

 

And while not an unfounded accusation, it does show a certain amount of bias against Will's self-control. But it also shows a bias against thinking Wally and Clara would actually stand up to either their son or Will. Brad's initial assumption is that the Hayes are reacting against Will's action, because Will is a type A, and they are not. In fact, even in this instance, they aren't the primary instigators of the drama, although they are bringing most of the pressure.

 

You make your own beds. Will has been the source of problems between the Hayes and Zach AND STILL IS. What Will did this time to piss off Wally and Clara is to react in such a way to Zach saying he had to go to the football camp as to make Zach reconsider the camp and then back out to stick with his plans for France. If Will had said, "gee sorry, JP and I will miss you in France", there wouldn't have been an issue between Zach and his parents that escalated. Whether or not you think Will had the right to be pissed off isn't the issue, it was his objections and vehemence that got Zach upset and led to the conversation with Matt and Zach's subsequent decision. If Will hadn't protested, Zach would have gone to the camp and there wouldn't have been any "disowning".

 

So Brad's instinct was correct.

 

I think as written, Wally and Clara are good solid blue collar people who value work, respect, discipline and what they perceive as middle class values.  In other words, their views are a bit parochial as they never had the experience of college or of travel.  Zach is the star athlete and they cannot see anything that distracts him from that as having any worth or value.  That he has defied them and continues to do so, rankles and is not something that appreciate as normal for teenagers, at least not one that they raised....

 

I don't think being a "solid blue collar" person who values "work, respect and discipline" makes you parochial. There are lots of "solid blue collar" people and people who value "work, respect and discipline" who are extremely well educated and well traveled. They are not related items.

 

I don't blame Wally and Clara for being rankled that people are interfering with their parental rights and obligations and enabling Zach to be defiant. I'd have kicked the crap out of anyone who messed with Tommy's and my relationship and I'd have slapped them all with restraining orders.

[Headstall]

When it comes to Wally and Clara, I think i would go with Frank's perception of them and how the treat Zach and how they relate to him.Yes, Will saw it first and with a boyfriends concern he encouraged Frank to see for himself what the real situation was, especially how much criticism Zach endured from Wally. Needless to say, ultimately Franks perception changed and as a family member he felt it was warranted that he take some action and "interfere" in support of Zach. As a father of four, I am very aware that not all parents are what they need to be (especially when dealing with fast maturing teenagers who are leaving them behind and in this case showing signs of being in a same sex relationship).There comes a time where we as parents let go of some control and slowly try to fulfill a role that morphs into friendship...it is one of the hardest things we have to do. Maybe Wally and Clara are great people, but in this instance they are confusing defiance with Zach's need to take some control in order to navigate his unique situation...I would go so far as to say that they are the ones interfering..instead of supporting and listening to what their son wants and needs. They have every right to share their opinions but they need to learn to support Zach and not try to rule him...otherwise they will lose him. Personally, I am hoping that Frank can make them see the light as in getting them to realize what they are REALLY accomplishing. Will is no angel by any means but i think it is unfair to hang this on him. Just my opinion...Gary

[Daddydavek]

 

 

I don't think being a "solid blue collar" person who values "work, respect and discipline" makes you parochial. There are lots of "solid blue collar" people and people who value "work, respect and discipline" who are extremely well educated and well traveled. They are not related items.

 

I don't blame Wally and Clara for being rankled that people are interfering with their parental rights and obligations and enabling Zach to be defiant. I'd have kicked the crap out of anyone who messed with Tommy's and my relationship and I'd have slapped them all with restraining orders.

 

I believe I said that  their views are a bit parochial as they never had the experience of college or of travel.  The first part that you quoted was meant to convey that they were a bit self-righteous.  And yes there are some who are well traveled and well educated who are also self-righteous.  

[B1ue]

Well, my main point was that Brad is demonstrating, even if only in the privacy of his own thoughts, a bias against Will, specifically, against his self-control. I found that to be interesting and worth discussing.

 

 

What Will did this time to piss off Wally and Clara is to react in such a way to Zach saying he had to go to the football camp as to make Zach reconsider the camp and then back out to stick with his plans for France. If Will had said, "gee sorry, JP and I will miss you in France", there wouldn't have been an issue between Zach and his parents that escalated. Whether or not you think Will had the right to be pissed off isn't the issue, it was his objections and vehemence that got Zach upset and led to the conversation with Matt and Zach's subsequent decision. If Will hadn't protested, Zach would have gone to the camp and there wouldn't have been any "disowning".

 

I'm not sure that this is fair to Will, Zach, or the Hayes. *Something* was going to press this particular button, because as Matt outlines for Will's benefit it isn't really about this specific exhibition match, it's about whether or not Zach can make decisions regarding his post-high school future. While you're quite right that this would have not blown up had Will not expressed anything beyond a mild degree of honest disappointment in Zach's choices, it also wouldn't have happened if Wally and Clara were not trying to micromanage Zach. Because their reaction seemed extreme, especially Clara's. I could understand it if this was explicitly (or implicitly) about Will being Zach's boyfriend, or about Zach not doing something criminal, but disowning someone over this? I was under the impression, based on my own experience and that of my peer groups during that age, that most kids get to at least decide what they are going to do with their lives after school, and by that I mean both the hours between getting out of class and going to bed, as well as their post-scholastic careers. I thought that was especially true of older teenagers, like Zach. Is this not the case?

 

I do have to say that if this is implicitly about Zach and Will shacking up, then I would have somewhat less respect for the Hayes than I do now. If they aren't willing to own up to what they want, and run the risk of permanently alienating Zach over their actual desire, why run that same risk over something they don't actually care about as strongly as they are feigning?

Edited June 8, 2014 by B1ue

[PrivateTim]

I believe I said that  their views are a bit parochial as they never had the experience of college or of travel.  The first part that you quoted was meant to convey that they were a bit self-righteous.  And yes there are some who are well traveled and well educated who are also self-righteous.  

 

 

Fine.

 

Being a "solid blue collar" person who values "work, respect and discipline" doesn't make you self righteous.

 

There was a time in the not too distant past that "solid blue collar" people who valued "work, respect and discipline" were the vast majority of the American people. Elitists have been able to convince a large number of people that being a person whose views value "work, respect and discipline (and values)" are archaic and for suckers.

 

Well, my main point was that Brad is demonstrating, even if only in the privacy of his own thoughts, a bias against Will, specifically, against his self-control. I found that to be interesting and worth discussing.

 

And it matters not a whit that Brad was correct?

Edited June 8, 2014 by PrivateTim

[PrivateTim]

 it also wouldn't have happened if Wally and Clara were not trying to micromanage Zach. Because their reaction seemed extreme, especially Clara's. I could understand it if this was explicitly (or implicitly) about Will being Zach's boyfriend, or about Zach not doing something criminal, but disowning someone over this? I was under the impression, based on my own experience and that of my peer groups during that age, that most kids get to at least decide what they are going to do with their lives after school, and by that I mean both the hours between getting out of class and going to bed, as well as their post-scholastic careers. I thought that was especially true of older teenagers, like Zach. Is this not the case?

 

Micromanage?

 

We must define "micromanage" differently.

 

Letting your 16 year old decide on his own he wants to move across the country for his junior year of high school and therefore having zero control over anything he does or even having a clue what he is doing seems like the antithesis of micromanagement.

 

Then letting him switch schools instead of making him come home for his senior year also flies in the face of the concept of micromanagement. It shows the willingness and to what extent Wally and Clara were letting Zach make his own decisions. That is far more autonomy than any of my friends had in high school. Some kids might have been involved in the decision as to whether or not they were going to go to Harvard Westlake, Loyola or stay in the local public school, but not many and their feedback wasn't the one that carried the day.

 

Wally and Clara haven't had any say in anything Zach has done since he left for New Jersey. You talk about kids freedom on what to do with their lives after school. Zach has had complete freedom not just after school, but well beyond that.

[B1ue]

And it matters not a whit that Brad was correct?

As far as what I was talking about? Not really. Edit: I'm not attempting to judge Brad for having that bias. In fact, I'm pretty sure I would as well, in his shoes. I was mostly trying to establish that he had such a bias, and that his innermost thoughts, although unvoiced, are acceptable fodder when discussing the existence of a bias. Does that make more sense?

 

Letting your 16 year old decide on his own he wants to move across the country for his junior year of high school and therefore having zero control over anything he does or even having a clue what he is doing seems like the antithesis of micromanagement.

 

Then letting him switch schools instead of making him come home for his senior year also flies in the face of the concept of micromanagement. It shows the willingness and to what extent Wally and Clara were letting Zach make his own decisions. That is far more autonomy than any of my friends had in high school. Some kids might have been involved in the decision as to whether or not they were going to go to Harvard Westlake, Loyola or stay in the local public school, but not many and their feedback wasn't the one that carried the day.

Bluntly, that's less autonomy than I had, my siblings had, or any of my friends, up to an including which high school we went to and moving in with a relative if that was necessary to pull it off. So yeah, that's pretty weird to me, and looks like micromanagement from my perspective, although I can certainly accept that it would just look like parenting from yours.

 

Also, let's not exaggerate. They, Wally and Clara, might not have known exactly what Zach was doing at any given moment, but someone responsible for him did. I would guess that he had more supervision, and fewer freedoms as far as things like curfew and spending, than he might have enjoyed simply living with his parents. It's not like he was given an apartment and allowed to run wild, like Will threatened. Further, did Zach make that decision? From what I recall, his parents made that call, in order to get him away from bad influences. I doubt Zach objected or minded, but I did not recall him having that much of an input. I'll have to delve through 9.11 to see, I suppose.

 

Edit: I will count the tattoo as a point towards your position. THAT would be crossing a line. Also, found the appropriate section, from chapter 51 of 9.11

        He shrugged.  “Happened pretty fast.  Robbie was annoyed with me for leaving Claremont, since he’d decided to save the fucking city from itself, but he caved and agreed to help me out.”  

        “What made you decide to do that?” I asked. 

        “Dude, I was right on the edge of seriously fucking up my life,” he said sincerely, probably the first time I’d heard him talk that way.  “I was shooting roids, I was fucking everything that moved, and I was partying like a rock star.”  He leaned back and put his arms behind his head. “And my friends were scum.”

 

Assuming he isn't slanting the truth, and I don't see why he would have real reason to do so, I stand corrected.

Edited June 9, 2014 by B1ue

[impunity]

Random interjection regarding my most recent review: "dispensable" is a real word. The one I was trying to use was "dispendable". Damn spell checker and its inability to accept novel vocabulary! :-/

[Timothy M.]

And it matters not a whit that Brad was correct?

 

Yes, I think it does, but in fact Brad wasn't right in thinking the trouble was Will's fault this time. Or at least I think Mark and a fair amount of his readers think Will wasn't to blame for this particular problem.

Yes he overreacted emotionally when Zach wanted to break his promise, but he didn't force Zach to do anything. Matt was the person who made Zach work through the problem and make the decision to choose the trip wih JP. And let's not forget that JP and all the other adults agreed this was the correct choice. Plus Brad did not repeat his thought about blaming Will this time, so apparently he's come to the same conclusion.

And the point I'm trying to make, is that the reason there was a conflict is that Barry wanted to excert his control over Zach. He roped Wally and Clara into the fight, and in a way I feel sorry for them, because they'll pay the price even more than Barry. Getting 'fired' as parents (guardians) is surely a lot worse than getting the sack as advisor.

Saying Will is to blame for this conflict seems completely unfair to me - unless just the fact he's in love with Zach and has made Zach love him in return is the main reason for all of Zach's problems with his parents. Will is doing his best to help Zach have his dreams of a football career come true, and Barry already agreed to the deal with the trip to Europe with JP, so Will was justified in thinking this was yet another ploy to keep them apart - or at least a stupid manipulative move by Barry. Zach's failure to see this was a large reason they got into a fight - if he'd asked Will to help him get out of the exhibition, things would have gone differently.

Will's anger with Zach didn't help solve the matter, but it didn't create the problem in the first place. And if he'd given in, this would have shown Barry (and Zach's parents) they could do the same thing again and again. It would have destroyed the relationship of Will and Zach. For those of us who like those two characters such an outcome would have been terribly sad. It may still happen, but at least it won't be due to Barry being an idiot

 

PS and it's no good repeating the argument that there wouldn't have been a conflict if Will had 'just' accpted Zach being persuaded to drop the trip. What if Zach had called JP and been told in his polite and logical manner that he would be wrong to drop the trip to Europe (both from an educational viewpoint and in relation to Will), and Matt had gone through the same conversation leading to Zach choosing to fire Barry etc. It would have been exactly the same basic conflict of Barry and Zach's parents trying to manipulate him into what they want rather than what's best for Zach.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Timothy M.

[methodwriter85]

    So now that Tony's redeemed himself, I wonder if Tim's stopped hoping that he'd die a horrible, painful death. *looks at Private Tim* Nah....

 

     I thought that particular plot line, over Poor Man's Son, Paternity, and 9/11 had gotten into an endless cycle of "Will trusts Tony, Tony fucks him over, Will freaks out, then forgives him, then Tony fucks him over again", so I'm glad that there was some kind of resolution here. I do think in the end, it was good for Will's character- it taught him not to put guys on a pedestal, and to not to try and force a "relationship" into something it's not.

 

      I thought Will's baggage with Tony was what made him spark with Zach in the first place- Zach was the complete opposite of Tony, who came off in the beginning as projecting this image of being an honorable, dependable guy. Zach instead was pretty honest about his faults and owned them, and Will wanted that after spending so much time chasing after a version of Tony that never really existed but he kept hoping did.

[Henson]

The sports world is, unlike finance and entertainment, a world where this family has little to no pull.

 

Could firing someone like Barry, who both exists in this world and knows Zach is gay, blow back on the poor kid?  What's to stop the jilted manager from starting a little whisper campaign, one which could never be definitively traced back to him?

 

If nothing else, this just underscores how utterly corrupt and manipulative college-level football is in this country.  These kids are not their own.  They are commodities, to be used or discarded for profit when the time comes.

 

Ultimately, all considered, the best way to get Zach on a team is for Steph to buy one.  Can you just imagine?     And it's not as if they're bad investments.

[PrivateTim]

Yes, I think it does, but in fact Brad wasn't right in thinking the trouble was Will's fault this time. Or at least I think Mark and a fair amount of his readers think Will wasn't to blame for this particular problem.

Yes he overreacted emotionally when Zach wanted to break his promise, but he didn't force Zach to do anything. Matt was the person who made Zach work through the problem and make the decision to choose the trip wih JP. And let's not forget that JP and all the other adults agreed this was the correct choice. Plus Brad did not repeat his thought about blaming Will this time, so apparently he's come to the same conclusion.

And the point I'm trying to make, is that the reason there was a conflict is that Barry wanted to excert his control over Zach. He roped Wally and Clara into the fight, and in a way I feel sorry for them, because they'll pay the price even more than Barry. Getting 'fired' as parents (guardians) is surely a lot worse than getting the sack as advisor.

Saying Will is to blame for this conflict seems completely unfair to me - unless just the fact he's in love with Zach and has made Zach love him in return is the main reason for all of Zach's problems with his parents. Will is doing his best to help Zach have his dreams of a football career come true, and Barry already agreed to the deal with the trip to Europe with JP, so Will was justified in thinking this was yet another ploy to keep them apart - or at least a stupid manipulative move by Barry. Zach's failure to see this was a large reason they got into a fight - if he'd asked Will to help him get out of the exhibition, things would have gone differently.

Will's anger with Zach didn't help solve the matter, but it didn't create the problem in the first place. And if he'd given in, this would have shown Barry (and Zach's parents) they could do the same thing again and again. It would have destroyed the relationship of Will and Zach. For those of us who like those two characters such an outcome would have been terribly sad. It may still happen, but at least it won't be due to Barry being an idiot

 

PS and it's no good repeating the argument that there wouldn't have been a conflict if Will had 'just' accpted Zach being persuaded to drop the trip. What if Zach had called JP and been told in his polite and logical manner that he would be wrong to drop the trip to Europe (both from an educational viewpoint and in relation to Will), and Matt had gone through the same conversation leading to Zach choosing to fire Barry etc. It would have been exactly the same basic conflict of Barry and Zach's parents trying to manipulate him into what they want rather than what's best for Zach.

 

 

Seriously? You are not only speculating on what Brad thought later, but on how JP would have reacted and THAT would have caused Zach to be as upset over his shouting match with Will?

 

Of course it IS Will's fault because of Will's reaction and Zach's reaction to Will's reaction. When you have 1,000 dominoes lined up and domino 999 knocks down domino 1,000, you don't blame domino 999 it is the fault of domino 1 that knocked down domino 2. Everything that has happened since Will and Zach had their shouting match is a direct result of that shouting match. It was the precipitating event in everything else that has happened.

 

You can not speculate about why Barry did what he did, you can't speculate about what JP would have said had Will been okay with Zach going to the camp, you can't speculate about what is going through Wally and Clara's minds, you can only read what has been written and see the series of events since then.

 

Will is NOT doing his best to help Zach have his dreams of a football career come true, Will is doing his best to spend as much time with Zach as possible. If Will was doing his best to help Zach have his dreams of a football career come true he'd have sent him to the camp with his blessing. Does anyone honestly believe that Pete Carroll would have given a fuck about a running back having been an intern for a Stanfurd professor? Carroll HATES Stanfurd as do all right thinking people. Zach doesn't need a resume builder with a professor of French history to get into a major DI football program, he needs exposure, stats and success.

 

The sports world is, unlike finance and entertainment, a world where this family has little to no pull.

 

If nothing else, this just underscores how utterly corrupt and manipulative college-level football is in this country.  These kids are not their own.  They are commodities, to be used or discarded for profit when the time comes.

 

Zach is not to the "sports" world yet, which is professional athletics. He isn't at the college level yet, but that is what he is shooting for now and the family can have incredible pull there because they have incredible money. Any college coach would burn a scholarship for a shot at money that makes Phil Knight look like a pauper.

 

These "kids", the football players, abuse the system as badly as it abuses them. They get into school they have no business being in, they are pampered with training tables, a full medical staff, chartered plane rides, dubious grades and if a pro offer comes, have no compunction about leaving the school. They also have no problem breaking NCAA rules and then leaving the school high and dry with no consequences to themselves while the school faces sanctions that punish the whole program for years after they leave.

 

I was a DI athlete at a major university, albeit in a minor sport and every athlete not in the football or basketball program hated the athletes in those programs.

[Timothy M.]

Well to me the first domino was Barry disrupting the plans he'd originally endorsed (enthusiastically with the words 'go for it' as far as I recall).

 

But I'll admit to having no clue about US football and college stuff, so I cannot refute the argument that the exhibition would mean more for Zach's career than going to Europe. And I'm guessing pointing to the opinions voiced by Matt and JP (and by Mark in replies to comments) won't make a difference to you.

Nor will I cite any of the passages which to me supports my 'speculations'. Because they won't matter either.

 

To you Will will always be the bad guy.

And actually it's fun to have you take this position, as it leads to interesting reviews and heated discussions on the forum. Such as this one

In fact, I sometimes suspect Mark of letting Will win or be vindicated so often just to tease you.   Which is so   for us Will fans

So please keep up the anti-Will crusade

[Headstall]

Wow Private Tim...You must really hate Will.

 

As much as I don't want to get into this...I do not find your arguments rational...fun, but not rational. Bottom line is that you are blaming Will for Zach breaking a promise...A HUGE PROMISE...to his boyfriend and his boyfriend's most respected (by Will) family member. Furthermore you are taking Will to task for getting angry about it. I don't know you at all but judging by your posts you are no stranger to anger...and I say that Will reacted the way a good amount of us would...royally pissed off!! All these other arguments reek of hatred for a character to the point of convenient blindness   and are nothing more than a smokescreen. Whether this falls on deaf ears or not is of no concern to me...I just had to join the fun ...It's been a blast...Gary