Flux

[Headstall]

I'm curious, but why would Will come to think that promiscuity was a bad thing? Unless you mean from an emotional stand-point, in which case the talk wouldn't be difficult at all. "I jumped into bed with my first couple of boyfriends a bit too early in the relationship, and got my heart broken. I also got a black eye from knowingly sleeping with a guy that was dating someone else at the time. I regret those acts. I hope you don't make the same mistakes." See, easy, and he doesn't have to admit that promiscuity helped him get over those early broken hearts if he doesn't want to.

This is a fun discussion and I am not weighing in here other than to say that I find, being a parent changes everything...especially your perspective....cheers

[methodwriter85]

Will REALLY seems to have a problem with hypocrisy, and I can't see him as a parent ever trying to disparage his own teenage kid somewhere in the 2030's from doing the same kind of stuff he did. I think the scene would go pretty much as you described.

 

I get what you're saying, Blue, but I don't think JJ will ever doing anything that would tarnish his image. Image is absolutely everything in that sport, and for him to pull any of the kind of shit that Will did to be "free" wouldn't be good for it. He'll just suck it up and be glad that he's only got another 16 months to go before his 18th birthday.

[B1ue]

This is a fun discussion and I am not weighing in here other than to say that I find, being a parent changes everything...especially your perspective....cheers

Almost every adult family member in Will's life is either promiscuous or unwilling to be wholly monogamous. That includes JP and Stef. And everyone is fine with it. If Will was an outlier that eventually would calm down, then yeah, I can see him trying to rail against promiscuity when his kids are teenagers themselves. But it would be awfully weird for him to say that when his kid could raise an eyebrow and say "Grandpa just banged my swimming coach, and Aunt Tiffany is sleeping with his wife. We haven't seen Uncle Matt in days. Uncle Jeremy has a harem living right next store. Also, your personal assistant was here awfully early. Again. But okay, save myself for marriage. Sure..."

Edited July 20, 2014 by B1ue

[Headstall]

Great points and I am not disagreeing...but we are talking about an idealistic 15 year old now. He will change and evolve and if he becomes a parent, like most who do...he will do his best to nurture and protect his child( I am assuming he would be a good parent).It is not about hipocrisy. It is about foguring out the best way to help each child you may have and that often includes setting boundaries, and you don't set them based on what you did in the past or your idealism as a 15 year old. Kitt's parents for example, set boundaries to help their child...and they didn't need to disclose their past to do it. The same goes for Will. And i agree that there are a lot of open relationships in Will's family, including his own but no one  knows what Will will be like as a 30 year old. In the event of fatherhood, he doesn't need to RAIL against promiscuity, and he doesn't need to say "save yourself for marriage" either. To me, being a good parent is mostly about providing balance and support and to help them understand themselves and also what is going on around them. And, if this is going back to Bucket's post, I think for the most part, he was going for levity...sometimes the guy is hilarious. . I hope you can see that i am not disagreeing...I just wanted to give my opinion that fatherhood will change Will's perspective, probably about many things. Cheers

[Kitt]

Well B1ue, I apologize for sounding like a parent rather than a teenager, but I suppose we can blame that on me BEING a parent of a now 23 yr old young lady who grew up with an open mind and a decent set of values.

 

I can understand a teenager thinking the way you have described, but only initially, during the "toss a fit" period that usually happens after a severe curtailment like not letting him compete in Germany would be. For the most part by the time most of the teen's I have dealt with over the years have reached 16 or 17 they have developed the ability to eventually calm down and think things through. Granted there are always the extreme cases where they fly off the handle and just keep on flying, but that happens less than you might imagine.

 

As for Will's opinions changing prior to having the sex talks with any of his own children - I would be shocked indeed if he managed to live for 15 years or more without his opinions changing. Life is about change, most of us strive to change for the better, some change for the worse, but seldom does anyone remain completely static. Who knows what Will's opinions will be when the time comes? I simply voiced my opinion on the picture that came to my head when Bucket brought up the idea of Will doing the sex talk thing.

[mmike1969]

Expert Parenting 101 by Brad Schluter.

 

“You are behaving like a spoiled brat, and you’re being rude to other family members.

 

So being rude to non-family members is okay. Got it.

 

She was good with JJ to a point, but she tended to give him a pretty free rein, and didn’t hold him accountable for his diva behavior. I chided myself as soon as I thought that, because it wasn’t her fault. I hadn’t given her or Wade any authority over JJ, so now he was all but controlling their lives.

 

So please Brad, explain to us simple people how you, Robbie and Jeanine controlled JJs Diva behavior.

 

Oh wait, y'all pretty much didn't.

 

You give me a bad time for not being around

 

Because you were not.

 

"You will sit down, and you will be polite, and you will eat with us, or I will cancel your whole goddam season,” I said.

 

Followed by 30 seconds later ->

 

"You can leave this table,” I said.

 

Make up your mind Brad.

[Kitt]

LOL you are right Mike! Brad does need to make up his mind! Being consistent is the only way not to have a teenager play you against yourself!

[Daddydavek]

I find the whole discussion interesting.  Especially telling I think as characterized by those who are parents and those who have not had that responsibility.  

 

While people do try to be consistent with their own internal values, those values do change over time and may even vary depending on the situation.  Over a 140 years ago Emerson gave us the following quote which came to my mind. 

 

"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."  

 

My point is that people are individuals with faults, failings and inconsistencies.  Most children recognize that about their parents at about age nine.  Teenagers love to point out a parent's inconsistency.  Most parents are usually equally adept at pointing out their children's inconsistencies, albeit often much larger ones as the parents have the edge in experience.  

[Headstall]

Expert Parenting 101 by Brad Schluter.

 

So being rude to non-family members is okay. Got it.

 

So please Brad, explain to us simple people how you, Robbie and Jeanine controlled JJs Diva behavior.

 

Oh wait, y'all pretty much didn't.

 

Because you were not.

 

Followed by 30 seconds later ->

 

Make up your mind Brad.

OK...now that is funny!! It's amusing but true...and I agree with Kitt and Daddy Dave K...consistency is not only key, it is necessary...cheers

[methodwriter85]

   Yeah, I think it's easy to admit that Brad was a pretty shitty, inconsistent parent.

[methodwriter85]

 

But it would be awfully weird for him to say that when his kid could raise an eyebrow and say "Grandpa just banged my swimming coach, and Aunt Tiffany is sleeping with his wife. We haven't seen Uncle Matt in days. Uncle Jeremy has a harem living right next store. Also, your personal assistant was here awfully early. Again. But okay, save myself for marriage. Sure..."

 

    I know you're doing examples...but I'm not sure I see Jeremy Schluter being a slut. He's already bucked the pothead tendencies of his family; he might just buck the slutty tendencies as well.

[B1ue]

   Yeah, I think it's easy to admit that Brad was a pretty shitty, inconsistent parent.

He's certainly not been a trustworthy one up to this point, which was key to my argument. Kids reaching the conclusion that their parents are being reasonable in their decision making requires a parent that is actually, or at least appears to be, reasonable in their decision making. Neither Wade nor Brad has achieved this goal.

 

    I know you're doing examples...but I'm not sure I see Jeremy Schluter being a slut. He's already bucked the pothead tendencies of his family; he might just buck the slutty tendencies as well.

Well, it's up to Mark, but this is a point upon which we hit, "these characters will act a certain way because the author wants them to." 

[methodwriter85]

  True, but right now I think it kind of works that Mark is painting JJ as the virginal counterpoint to Will.

[Bucket1]

Great points and I am not disagreeing...but we are talking about an idealistic 15 year old now. He will change and evolve and if he becomes a parent, like most who do...he will do his best to nurture and protect his child( I am assuming he would be a good parent).It is not about hipocrisy. It is about foguring out the best way to help each child you may have and that often includes setting boundaries, and you don't set them based on what you did in the past or your idealism as a 15 year old. Kitt's parents for example, set boundaries to help their child...and they didn't need to disclose their past to do it. The same goes for Will. And i agree that there are a lot of open relationships in Will's family, including his own but no one  knows what Will will be like as a 30 year old. In the event of fatherhood, he doesn't need to RAIL against promiscuity, and he doesn't need to say "save yourself for marriage" either. To me, being a good parent is mostly about providing balance and support and to help them understand themselves and also what is going on around them. And, if this is going back to Bucket's post, I think for the most part, he was going for levity...sometimes the guy is hilarious. . I hope you can see that i am not disagreeing...I just wanted to give my opinion that fatherhood will change Will's perspective, probably about many things. Cheers

 

One small, off the cuff, throwaway line that was meant to make others smile and wow it got serious and deep very quickly.

 

If we are getting deep and philosophical about this, I think parenthood or some other childrearing responsibility does (in most cases) change your view of the world. If nothing else, you do want to "pass on some wisdom" and to give them the opportunity to learn from your mistakes. I would find it unbelievable if Will remained the same over the next 15-20 years. He will still be the "right over wrong", "promises are important", "don't shit on the family" kind of guy we know and love (or hate) but 15 vs 35, he will be a very poor character if he is identical to the person he his now.

 

Most of us seem to agree that Brad is never going to win Father of the Year especially after mmike1969's little summary (very funny).

 

And finally, apparently I owe Headstall some money as head of my PR department - I'll have my people talk to your people 

[Bucket1]

All that, while annoying, is probably reasonable if you have trustworthy parents. Now, add a further dimension to it. From JJ's perspective, I don't think Brad or Wade would count as trustworthy. Not that they'd count as abusive, but both of them have "proven" from JJ's perspective that they don't give a damn about JJ in general or ice-skating in particular. The only people JJ could depend on, except Tiffany, are either dead or will be completely across the country from him, and Tiffany is going to be busy.

 

This is sad but true - up to a point. From JJ's perspective Brad and Wade don't care about skating and therefore don't care about him. What very few of the family have explained to JJ, is that they don't care about skating but they do really care about him. This is an important difference between Will and JJ - JJ (like many many young talented boys and girls) defines himself as "JJ the skater" if he doesn't have skating JJ is nothing (in his own eyes).  Zach is very similar to JJ in this regard. Will is Will regardless of what is happening to him.

 

It is interesting that some of the Australian Rules Football clubs (mmmmm sexy men in short shorts) are teaching their players about "life after football" as soon as they join the professional level. Not that I would wish it upon anyone including Mark's brilliant characters but way too many young aspiring athletes get injured and careers end in a second. A good parent, coach or advisor should be setting up backup plans and alternatives from the beginning. I think this is why I have a real problem with Barry and Wally - they are not really interested in Zach, only in his football career.

[Kitt]

 

 

It is interesting that some of the Australian Rules Football clubs (mmmmm sexy men in short shorts) are teaching their players about "life after football" as soon as they join the professional level. Not that I would wish it upon anyone including Mark's brilliant characters but way too many young aspiring athletes get injured and careers end in a second. A good parent, coach or advisor should be setting up backup plans and alternatives from the beginning. I think this is why I have a real problem with Barry and Wally - they are not really interested in Zach, only in his football career.

Damn well told and exactly why I had an issue with Wally and Barry trying to prevent the European trip with JP. While Mark did not talk about the research and what his intern would be doing, he is after all an academic and I am quite sure he had Zach spending at least some time helping with the research and preservation of those letters in Bridgemont. That sort of thing goes a long way on someones resume when applying at universities. While football may be the main focus, unless it is one of the Uni's that coddles the players and nurses them through the academics, I would like to think that an actual education is important to most schools.

[Bucket1]

Damn well told and exactly why I had an issue with Wally and Barry trying to prevent the European trip with JP. While Mark did not talk about the research and what his intern would be doing, he is after all an academic and I am quite sure he had Zach spending at least some time helping with the research and preservation of those letters in Bridgemont. That sort of thing goes a long way on someones resume when applying at universities. While football may be the main focus, unless it is one of the Uni's that coddles the players and nurses them through the academics, I would like to think that an actual education is important to most schools.

 

JP would not be providing an internship and then not expect Zach to do some grunt work. I would like to think that Mark failed to show us Zach having to do some work for JP and Will just accepting that that was part of the price of Zach being in Europe. He did do the guilt trip thing on Zach when the trip was at risk. Will understands that an education is important. 

[Bucket1]

While we are chatting about Brad's (& Robbie's, Jeanine's etc) poor parenting, chase5555's review reminds us that although Brad will never be Father of the Year, he could be a whole lot worse.

 

Thanks, that was a fun chapter.
Just a comment on Wade's recent bizarre behavior.
Considering that both of his parents were nut jobs and the abuse he has suffered at their hands, I'm not surprised that occasionally he'd be a little 'wacko' and can easily forgive him for it. Overall, I think his calmness and staid behavior may be a cover for some insecurities.
I'm always checking for new chapters with great anticipation. Thanks again.

 

HIs review did put Brad's efforts in context. As well as re-ignite some sympathies for Wade and his poor behaviour. Bloody hell CAP is a complicated and layered world.

[Henson]

My mother told me, on several occasions, that she did not treat the four of us equally - she treated us fairly.

 

I'm not a parent, but I'm in the leadership of a noon-profit youth organization and have been involved in the high school band world for a long time.  Not every kid is the same.  If you're using a cookie cutter on them, you're doing it wrong.

[mmike1969]

I know you're doing examples...but I'm not sure I see Jeremy Schluter being a slut. He's already bucked the pothead tendencies of his family; he might just buck the slutty tendencies as well.

Based on personal experience;

 

When I was in the Army and the sober instant that I decided to stop denying to myself that I really wanted to sleep with this MP, yeah I became a total slut.

 

I can actually see JJ being an acid dropping, pot smoking, fun drunk married to a trophy wife and lives together with his young male personal "assistant".

Edited July 21, 2014 by mmike1969

[Headstall]

My mother told me, on several occasions, that she did not treat the four of us equally - she treated us fairly.

 

I'm not a parent, but I'm in the leadership of a noon-profit youth organization and have been involved in the high school band world for a long time.  Not every kid is the same.  If you're using a cookie cutter on them, you're doing it wrong.

Your mother is a smart lady....my four were as different as night and day and what worked for one did not always work for another...you can be consistant with all your kids in what you are looking for from them and for them...but you have to figure them out individually and support them in what they need FROM YOU. We must have done something right because all four are amazing and make me feel nothing but pride for them...

[Raistlinsama]

Concerning JJ sexuality and his apparent lack of a sex drive, at least when compared to Will, It hunk we should remember that JJ is a victim of sexual abuse from his coach. I'm no expert in the matter, but that kind of trauma may very well condition JJ approach to sex for the rest of his life.

I'm not even sure if he's getting the appropriate support to deal with it. On top of that he then lost his mother and Robbie during 9/11: if he's focusing his whole life just on skating I don't even want to think what will happen if his career gets interrupted for any reason...

[B1ue]

That's quite possible. Not all victims of sexual assault react that way, but some do. He doesn't seem to be asexual on his own; the Norway trip and a couple other encounters proved he had an interest in sex at that point, but who knows how circumstances have affected him since. He could shut down his own sex drive, or ramp it up to setting 11. He could even turn out to want sex at the same time that sexual encounters make him have panic attacks. I trended that way myself during my own recovery, but I have no idea how common a reaction that is. Or he could turn out to have fully recovered by the time he's in that kind of situation "on-screen," and the issue never comes up in any way again. I would personally be disappointed if that was the case, but in fairness to Mark not everyone would be interested in reading or writing that kind of story.

 

I still think his libido is going to explode to such a degree that Will really does wind up looking like a prude in comparison. It would be an interesting development for both characters, and a preview of how Will might wind up acting as a parent 15-20 years down the road without actually needing to advance the storyline quite that far.

[Mark Arbour]

I think that when it comes to JJ and sex/sexuality, it's going to be a long road until he gets to a place where he's monogamously happy and satisfied, if he ever does get to that place.   I say "I think" because I haven't written or planned that far in advance, and I can see any number of possibilities on how he might act.  I like that.  Gives me lots of choices. 

 

I do think it's pretty certain that, unless JJ decides to jettison his skating career, until he ends it (or until we get to the current era), he's going to have to keep any relationships he has with men firmly in the closet.  In that, he is not unlike Zach in that regard.

[methodwriter85]

I think that when it comes to JJ and sex/sexuality, it's going to be a long road until he gets to a place where he's monogamously happy and satisfied, if he ever does get to that place.   I say "I think" because I haven't written or planned that far in advance, and I can see any number of possibilities on how he might act.  I like that.  Gives me lots of choices. 

 

I do think it's pretty certain that, unless JJ decides to jettison his skating career, until he ends it (or until we get to the current era), he's going to have to keep any relationships he has with men firmly in the closet.  In that, he is not unlike Zach in that regard.

 

      The thing that you've set up about JJ, and has been pretty consistent, is that he's not really a homebody, "attached to family" type. Whereas family is HUGE for people like Will and Darius, it's not really that way for JJ. It could change, but I kind of think that if 9/11 didn't turn JJ into a type who was all about family like his brothers, nothing will. I can see JJ being pretty content to roam around the world, meeting new people and experiencing new things, and never really setting up "home" with any particular person. I can see it being pretty important to both Darius and Will for them to meet the person they can envision themselves setting up a family and home with, but never really for JJ.

 

     I can also see JJ being pretty gun-shy about the idea of settling down into a happy monogamous relationship that's marriage or the equivalent, considering that both Brad/Robbie and Jeanine/Tiffany fell apart pretty spectacularly when he was 13 and 14 years old. Aside from that, his career choice doesn't really lend itself well to having a happy, monogamous relationship considering the extensive amount of training and traveling he has to do.