Flux

[apjordan]

  Right. In any event, grad school should be a pretty brutal awakening for Matt. Wade seems like he'll transition well, but I think it'll take Matt a couple of weeks to adjust.

 

I was about as prepared for grad school as you perceive Wade to be—and came from just as prestigious an undergraduate institution and wasn't recovering from any sort of deep personal or familial trauma—but it still took me a full quarter to adjust to being a grad student at Chicago. However...

 

Getting an MBA, even at a top school, has more in common with undergrad programs than most graduate degrees. At Chicago (my MBA is from there too) you take your 21 courses and get your diploma--no thesis or dissertation, no comprehensive exams. If I recall correctly, Matt majored in economics at Stanford and got decent grades. That's a highly ranked program, and along with interning at the family companies and leading the hockey team, should set him up to do well at Chicago.

 

...I was in a program and field about as far away from the MBA as possible.

 

If Matt were entering a research-oriented PhD program, I'd suggest that he's poised for a stellar flame-out. But I think the challenges and experiences of an MBA program may be just what he needs.

[GLH]

So am I wrong? Was there a time when Matt placed Brad off limits? I don't recall huge issues when Wade and Brad slept together the first times, why is it a big deal now?

 

Dude!  WTF are you smokin'?  I know they say that every witness has a different story, but you're not even in the same book.  I can't recall exactly which story it was in and I won't say that it was explicitly stated, but I still have the distinct impression it was very strongly implied both Matt and Wade agreed that Wade wouldn't go there.  Given the strain it put on the relationship the first time around, as well as the amount of time it took for Matt and Wade to get past it, I can't see them not having set that boundary.

[methodwriter85]

     My point isn't that Matt won't do well. The point is that grad school isn't a cakewalk even if you're not doing a thesis, and you don't get coddled at any point during your graduate career, the way you sometimes do in undergrad. And Matt's frat boy lifestyle will have to be adjusted at least a little bit to accommodate the vastly increased amount of homework. Instead of partying every single night, he might have to cut back to 3 nights a week. LOL. He'll learn more about time management than he ever wanted to know. LOL.

 

     Grad school is not college, the way college is not high school. It's an adjustment, and it usually takes awhile. How Matt adjusts to the changes should be interesting. I think the challenges created some great character growth in myself, and I hope it does the same for Matt.

Edited April 2, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

Dude!  WTF are you smokin'?  I know they say that every witness has a different story, but you're not even in the same book.  I can't recall exactly which story it was in and I won't say that it was explicitly stated, but I still have the distinct impression it was very strongly implied both Matt and Wade agreed that Wade wouldn't go there.  Given the strain it put on the relationship the first time around, as well as the amount of time it took for Matt and Wade to get past it, I can't see them not having set that boundary.

 

Caught up on my review responses and I discovered that I chimed in similarly to your point: 

 

I think it's disingenuous to say there was no verbal ban by Matt on a Brad/Wade hookup. The first time they got together, it almost destroyed all of their relationships. I think that's a pretty good way of saying "don't sleep with him." I think it's unreasonable to think a guy has to tell his step-father or boyfriend (or ex-boyfriend) not to sleep together. That's something they should just know, and get.

 

 

 

     My point isn't that Matt won't do well. The point is that grad school isn't a cakewalk even if you're not doing a thesis, and you don't get coddled at any point during your graduate career, the way you sometimes do in undergrad. And Matt's frat boy lifestyle will have to be adjusted at least a little bit to accommodate the vastly increased amount of homework. Instead of partying every single night, he might have to cut back to 3 nights a week. LOL. He'll learn more about time management than he ever wanted to know. LOL.

 

     Grad school is not college, the way college is not high school. It's an adjustment, and it usually takes awhile. How Matt adjusts to the changes should be interesting. I think the challenges created some great character growth in myself, and I hope it does the same for Matt.

 

Not everyone handles Grad school the same way, and not all Grad schools require the same amount of work and effort.  I would expect that Matt will be pretty busy with school, but then again, he would have been busy at Stanford too.  I don't know that Matt went out more than two or three nights a week during his undergrad years.  We know he partied more than Wade, but that's not saying much.  Frat boys at a place like Stanford still have to work hard to get good grades, but they can party like rock stars on those nights when it's allowed. 

 

In that vein, I'm not sure that Matt's actual lifestyle will change all that much, but we'll see.  I would expect it to be similar to what you laid out there, but then again, he may be able to balance things better. 

[Daddydavek]

Reply from Mark Arbour (author)

Graduation as a happy time: my personal experiences are that it's actually an extremely stressful time. Usually it's surrounded by a lot of uncertainty, and a massive change in lifestyle.

 

Different times, different experience.  When I graduated, I took the federal civil service test (yes in the days when there was such a beast) and scored well so I had several job offers from departments as diverse as the IRS, VA and DOD.  It was exciting.

 

My youngest brother graduated in the mid-seventies and had offers from McDonnell-Douglas, Boeing, IBM and others to consider.  

 

My nephew who graduated in 2009 finished his Master in Civil Engineering and had offers from more than a couple of companies as well.  

 

While the job market is certainly a lot more problematic since the great recession, there are still majors that are competitively sought by companies.  

 

So while it might be somewhat stressful, I can't imagine that going from an undergraduate to graduate environment  could be all that hightly stressful for these guys in their chosen majors.  The stress would be in making the cross country moves and finding housing.  With their money and Stef's help, I expect that will be less stressful than for the average joe without mega-millions.  

[mmike1969]

Hmm. Why is Brad/Wade creepy but Brad/Kevin okay?

[methodwriter85]

I thought they basically stopped as soon as they found out that Kevin was his nephew or whatever the hell he was. It took awhile- remember, we met him as "Sergio." It wasn't until deep in Millennium, after Brad had done the whole "You get a new car!" deal that we found out who Sergio/Kevin actually was.

 

 I kind of wonder if Sergio used a fake Italian accent to go with the fake name, and if he still does that, or he's gone back to being Kevin.

 

 

In that vein, I'm not sure that Matt's actual lifestyle will change all that much, but we'll see.  I would expect it to be similar to what you laid out there, but then again, he may be able to balance things better.

 

I think you're right in terms of actual lifestyle, but you're still adjusting. He has to build new relationships with new professors, learn his way around a new school, and build new friendships after creating some very tight friendships in college. I'm not expecting a flameout, but I think the bulk of people who make the jump have issues with it because it is a change, and if Matt were completely and seamlessly transitioned into grad school, that'd be a boring as hell read. He's been Mr. Big Man on Campus for 4 years of his life. Adjusting out of that should take a bit from him.

 

I wonder if Matt will have friends who do flameout. It does happen. I knew a girl who decided to treat her first year of grad school like her first year of college socially, and then of course flamed out. I'm not even sure she had to do a thesis- she was in student development or something like that.

 

I remember when I started grad school, I read this blog of a woman who dropped out of her PhD program, and I felt freaked out and wondered if I couldn't cut it. I think there was 1 girl who dropped out, and 1 guy who had to take out of our seminar (and add another semester to his load) because the professor of that particular 601 seminar told him that he was one of the worst writers that she'd ever come across in her life, and that based on his writing he shouldn't even be in grad school. (Having read his stuff it was true, but man, harsh.)

 

I'm curious though- did anyone here have a grad school experience that was joyful and easy? On the opposite side, did anyone flunk grad school? (Or have stories of stellar flameouts.)

 

In my case- I was somewhere in the middle. It was hard, but I managed to graduate with a 3.75. My biggest disappointment was that  I didn't have a close co-hort group- in some years that happens, but in my case it didn't. I think my biggest "shell shock" moment from grad school was when we were told for my 614 class that we were reading and writing book reviews every single week.

 

Is there a lot of reading for finance programs, or no? I know Wade should probably be slammed with thousands of pages to read every week as a law student. It's why study groups and outlines are crucial, right?

Edited April 2, 2014 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

Dude!  WTF are you smokin'?  I know they say that every witness has a different story, but you're not even in the same book.  I can't recall exactly which story it was in and I won't say that it was explicitly stated, but I still have the distinct impression it was very strongly implied both Matt and Wade agreed that Wade wouldn't go there.  Given the strain it put on the relationship the first time around, as well as the amount of time it took for Matt and Wade to get past it, I can't see them not having set that boundary.

 

I think it's disingenuous to say there was no verbal ban by Matt on a Brad/Wade hookup. The first time they got together, it almost destroyed all of their relationships. I think that's a pretty good way of saying "don't sleep with him." I think it's unreasonable to think a guy has to tell his step-father or boyfriend (or ex-boyfriend) not to sleep together. That's something they should just know, and get.

 

 

So I went back and looked in Paternity, here are two relevant passages, first Wade talking to Matt:

 

  “A blast.  Even his ass is muscular,” Matt said with a leer, cracking me up.  “So who did you end up with?  My money was on Gathan.” 

              “Nope, I hit the mother lode,” I said.  He looked at me, waiting for me to spill my guts.  “Brad fucked me.” 

              He stared at me, amazed.  “With that monster dick?  Dude, you must be sore as hell.” 

              I laughed.  “Nope.  Took it like a champ.” 

              He was quiet for a minute, and that made me nervous.  “What about Robbie?” 

              “He doesn’t know, and Brad’s not going to tell him, or at least that’s his plan,” I said.  “I told him that I wouldn’t say anything to anyone except you.  I promised that you’d keep your mouth shut.” 

              “So I’m supposed to look at Brad, you, and Robbie over Christmas and pretend that nothing happened?” he asked, being bitchy. 

              “Yeah.  I’m sorry.  I guess I should have made you promise not to say anything before I told you, but I figured that I could trust you on this.” 

              “You saying you don’t trust me?” 

              I looked at him calmly.  “No, I’m saying that I trust you completely, that’s why I didn’t hesitate to tell you, and that’s why I told Brad it would be alright to tell you.” 

              “Oh,” he said, getting it.  “What if this fucks up their relationship?  You remember what that was like last year.” 

 

There was no freaking out, no "OMG you slept with my step father" and no one got punched in the nose.

 

Here is the passage with Will after he caught Robbie in bed with Jeff when Stef, JP and Brad had first discovered the JJ pictures:

 

 “He was busy,” I said.  I looked at my dad as I said that, and watched him digest that.  Normally, I’m not a snitch.  Normally, I wouldn’t have said shit about Jeff fucking Robbie.  It’s not my place to get involved in what either one of them did.  But I knew that my dad had fucked Wade, and I guessed that he was probably feeling guilty about that.  I assumed that in this case, since he and Robbie had both blown it and slept with other guys, it was probably best if they knew it.  And even if my dad didn’t tell Robbie, it would help him assuage his own guilt. 

 

Again, there was no recrimination from Will for his father sleeping with Wade.

 

I think those two passages pretty well lay to rest the argument that there were any parallels between Tony/Matt and Brad/Wade. No one raised the "who is inherently off limits" argument in Paternity.

 

And who really could when you have grandfathers and grandsons sharing lovers (Will and Stef with Gathan), fathers and sons (Robbie and Will with Jeff) and any number of odd, non traditional couplings.

 

That is why the sudden "OMG" over Brad and Wade has me baffled.

[mmike1969]

Because Matt is an ass and is a Princess when it comes to whom other people his ex-boyfriend can have sex with.

[John Prz]

I think Will is thinking his dad is doing the same thing Matt did with Tony. Plus i think they are all making a big deal about it because is family and family. It's not Matt fucking Will's lover, It's Brad and Wade two people Will was sure he could trust on. Now they're threating to destroy the balance they all just find. 
 

It's funny how we passed from hating Matt to see him as a poor puppy. Will is getting every chapter more un-readable.

 

Brad, he needs a boyfriend his age, or a little youger. 

I hope Matt and Wade can find someone else to try other people. They only had their relationship, no other people. (Okey, Cody has to be considered for Matt)
Will and Zach, I'm really locking after what happen to their relationship

 

Maybe Brad need to meet Max and Tim to find a new balance. 

 

Mark, a doubt that came to my mind. Did ever Stef go to Milan Fashion Week??

[methodwriter85]

Because Matt is an ass and is a Princess when it comes to whom other people his ex-boyfriend can have sex with.

 

    You totally had a boyfriend like Matt, didn't you? LOL.

 

    I've adored Matt every since he admired himself in the mirror in the opening chapter of Bloodlines, so I'm glad to have him narrating again. He's a spoiled brat but his heart is pretty good.

 

    In any event, is there any guy who doesn't look back on what he was like at 22 and cringe? Most guys that age still have a lot of growing up left to do.

 

    It's why I find guys in their mid/late 30's pretty sexy- still youngish, but with experience and less of that "I know everything and am right about everything" attitude, because of said experience.

Edited April 3, 2014 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

I think Will is thinking his dad is doing the same thing Matt did with Tony. Plus i think they are all making a big deal about it because is family and family. It's not Matt fucking Will's lover, It's Brad and Wade two people Will was sure he could trust on. Now they're threating to destroy the balance they all just find.

 

Did you read the passage I quoted? Go back to Paternity and read those chapters? No one at that time, Matt and Will included, made any reference to Brad and Wade sleeping together as being inappropriate or a parallel to Jake and Sam (which is the parallel people cite when talking about Tony and Matt).

 

Matt's problem with it came up later because Wade was getting into Brad beyond just a roll in the hay and Will never had a problem with it, unless someone can point to a textual reference in Paternity that I missed.

[John Prz]

Did you read the passage I quoted? Go back to Paternity and read those chapters? No one at that time, Matt and Will included, made any reference to Brad and Wade sleeping together as being inappropriate or a parallel to Jake and Sam (which is the parallel people cite when talking about Tony and Matt).

 

Matt's problem with it came up later because Wade was getting into Brad beyond just a roll in the hay and Will never had a problem with it, unless someone can point to a textual reference in Paternity that I missed.

 

I think it's the time the problem. then no one had any kind of huge deal. now it's much more different, everyone of them is changed after 9.11, and also the way the act is changed. that's why i think Will is creating such a big deal.

 

i would too. he lot two parents, one was his mother. his half brother showed him before he didn't care about him. this half brother was together with Wade, the person Will look up to most after JP (we can also discuss on this), his father lost is partner and we saw how much Will was and still is worried about him.

 

the big deal for Will is that now is not just a single member of the family who is threatening the family unity (aka Matt & Tony deal) but it's two important and central member of the family. 

 

I would like to see how many 15 years old would stay calm in this situation, it would take much to create a huge deal between those three and maybe cause the fragmentation of the family.

 

Say I'm a pessimist, but damn if i was him I would have kicked Brad ass myself.

[PrivateTim]

I think it's the time the problem. then no one had any kind of huge deal. now it's much more different, everyone of them is changed after 9.11, and also the way the act is changed. that's why i think Will is creating such a big deal.

 

i would too. he lot two parents, one was his mother. his half brother showed him before he didn't care about him. this half brother was together with Wade, the person Will look up to most after JP (we can also discuss on this), his father lost is partner and we saw how much Will was and still is worried about him.

 

the big deal for Will is that now is not just a single member of the family who is threatening the family unity (aka Matt & Tony deal) but it's two important and central member of the family. 

 

I would like to see how many 15 years old would stay calm in this situation, it would take much to create a huge deal between those three and maybe cause the fragmentation of the family.

 

Say I'm a pessimist, but damn if i was him I would have kicked Brad ass myself.

 

You may be persistent, but also making no sense,

 

Will was 13 or 14 the first time and he was completely calm. There was also much more of a threat the family back then since both Brad & Robbie were together and Matt & Wade were together.

[Mark Arbour]

Did you read the passage I quoted? Go back to Paternity and read those chapters? No one at that time, Matt and Will included, made any reference to Brad and Wade sleeping together as being inappropriate or a parallel to Jake and Sam (which is the parallel people cite when talking about Tony and Matt).

 

Matt's problem with it came up later because Wade was getting into Brad beyond just a roll in the hay and Will never had a problem with it, unless someone can point to a textual reference in Paternity that I missed.

 

I think it's a bit disingenuous to pull those sections out of Paternity as the definitive verdict on Brad and Wade.  It ignores the subsequent problems Matt and Wade had, problems so intense they had to schedule an emergency meeting with Dr. David.  And in that meeting, Matt even offered to move away from Escorial with Wade so he wouldn't be tempted by Brad.  Regardless of how you feel about them sleeping together, it didn't work out very well the first time around. 

[Timothy M.]

But the whole point here is that the real problem with Wade and Brad being together originally was that they got too deeply involved and it was a danger to Wade's relationship with Matt. Exactly what has happened again.

So as Tim says, it's perfectly reasonable to compare the Wade/Brad situation now to the previous time they had sex. Rather than to compare it to the Matt/Tony or Sam/Jake issues. And the last time Wade was with Brad, Matt didn't freak out because Brad was family and therefore off limit, nor did Will. That's what has both Tims puzzled

[Westie]

Firstly, this is my first real post in a while, but my absence was unavoidable.

 

See, Tim's logical and reasoned argument is quite right (if in fact you do ignore the issues in paternity that Brad and Wade sleeping together did cause - in fact it caused at the time some major damage to Matt's Psyche).

 

However, those arguments make two fundamental errors. The first is that logic and reasoning play any part whatsoever in Matt's mind in matters of emotion and feeling. NOBODY who is in love sits down and thinks "Hmmm, I might be unreasonable here, let's think logically". With someone who has desperation, Love, Jealousy and probably a little bit of shame for the way he acted before cannot possibly be expected to look dispassionately at the situation causing those emotions and think like a lawyer.

 

The second error is thinking that an event pre- breakup and pre- 9/11 and pre- Brad's partner/Matt's father's death should have a fixed bearing on events that happen afterwards, even if they appear to be broadly similar. Events do not occur in a bubble, and lives are not lived there.

 

If we were playing chess here, I would tell you to focus on the full board, and not just on the relationship between two queens and a bishop. Your play changes as key pieces in play fall.

 

West

[Mark Arbour]

Firstly, this is my first real post in a while, but my absence was unavoidable.

 

See, Tim's logical and reasoned argument is quite right (if in fact you do ignore the issues in paternity that Brad and Wade sleeping together did cause - in fact it caused at the time some major damage to Matt's Psyche).

 

However, those arguments make two fundamental errors. The first is that logic and reasoning play any part whatsoever in Matt's mind in matters of emotion and feeling. NOBODY who is in love sits down and thinks "Hmmm, I might be unreasonable here, let's think logically". With someone who has desperation, Love, Jealousy and probably a little bit of shame for the way he acted before cannot possibly be expected to look dispassionately at the situation causing those emotions and think like a lawyer.

 

The second error is thinking that an event pre- breakup and pre- 9/11 and pre- Brad's partner/Matt's father's death should have a fixed bearing on events that happen afterwards, even if they appear to be broadly similar. Events do not occur in a bubble, and lives are not lived there.

 

If we were playing chess here, I would tell you to focus on the full board, and not just on the relationship between two queens and a bishop. Your play changes as key pieces in play fall.

 

West

 

I wish I could have explained it that well.  

[PrivateTim]

Firstly, this is my first real post in a while, but my absence was unavoidable.

 

See, Tim's logical and reasoned argument is quite right (if in fact you do ignore the issues in paternity that Brad and Wade sleeping together did cause - in fact it caused at the time some major damage to Matt's Psyche).

 

However, those arguments make two fundamental errors. The first is that logic and reasoning play any part whatsoever in Matt's mind in matters of emotion and feeling. NOBODY who is in love sits down and thinks "Hmmm, I might be unreasonable here, let's think logically". With someone who has desperation, Love, Jealousy and probably a little bit of shame for the way he acted before cannot possibly be expected to look dispassionately at the situation causing those emotions and think like a lawyer.

 

The second error is thinking that an event pre- breakup and pre- 9/11 and pre- Brad's partner/Matt's father's death should have a fixed bearing on events that happen afterwards, even if they appear to be broadly similar. Events do not occur in a bubble, and lives are not lived there.

 

If we were playing chess here, I would tell you to focus on the full board, and not just on the relationship between two queens and a bishop. Your play changes as key pieces in play fall.

 

West

 

You do miss the point Westie.

 

The first part is that Matt can be mad and unreasonable, but he can't rely on the "you're my stepfather" objection, because it has never been an objection in the past. I get the emotion that led to punching Brad and fucking Mary Ellen because he wants to hurt WADE, but he has no right to be mad at Brad later since the whole cascade of events that led to him and Wade being broken up rests squarely on him. He may not be self aware enough to see all that yet, but surely even the densest of dullards would have to understand that punching Brad was wrong on so many levels. Just being called to JP's study should have caused that nickel to drop.

 

The second part is that people have to continue to separate out the reason why Brad and Wade sleeping together last time caused a problem. It was not because Brad was Matt's stepfather, it was because Brad rocked Wade's world with the sex and that destroyed Matt's ego. No one had any issue with the 'Brad is Robbie's partner' issue and nothing about 9-11 changed that.

 

The other issue is Will. Will needs therapy in the worst way and his family should quit indulging him and enabling him. He has no concept of the real world (in as much as we treat CAP as a real world).

[Daddydavek]

 
stanollie
Today, 07:35 AM

(Chapter 10 Review)

stanollie     Another revealing chapter. One minor observation: Shaker Heights is no longer totally populated by snobs, only about fifty percent.

 

Interesting observation about about now.  But how about in 2002?   I suspect that some of the fifty percent who are not snobs are wannabees and the rest got some incredible deals on short sales when homes were lost because the owners were underwater following the Great Recession.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Daddydavek

[Westie]

You do miss the point Westie.

 

The first part is that Matt can be mad and unreasonable, but he can't rely on the "you're my stepfather" objection, because it has never been an objection in the past.

I don't miss the point at all Tim. I completely get what you are saying. And to an extent I agree with you in that I think people in this forum are too quick to pile on about how "wrong" it all is. What I'm saying is that even if all that is correct, love and emotion aren't argued in a model way. So Matt is a guy who is messed up emotionally and his head is totally screwed up. He has some serious issues to deal with. Until he is emotionally capable of dealing with this, your argument still wont make any sense.

 

That said, here is where you are RIGHT. Because while I understand these issues from a character point of view as if Matt really exists, I don't understand why people in this forum - with no emotional trauma to deal with, no issues, no death - cannot accept that the logic of your argument is fair in the cold light of day.

[methodwriter85]

Interesting observation about about now.  But how about in 2002?   I suspect that some of the fifty percent who are not snobs are wannabees and the rest got some incredible deals on short sales when homes were lost because the owners were underwater following the Great Recession.

 

 

   Right. It's the 2000's. The 2000's were like the 80's in that "Greed is good" was the mantra again (although we weren't nearly as open about that), and it was the era of McMansions and SUV's and a love for status symbols that you bought on credit.

  

   And you gotta take into credit the fact that Matt grew up in a Shaker Heights Colonial mansion, at the country club, and in private schools. There might have been middle class people there, but it's not like Matt ever really interacted much with them. Cole was probably the first normal, middle-class guy friend he ever had.

 

Yes, but to that 50%, they're 100% of Shaker Heights. ;-)

 

 

Exactly. Does anyone think that Matt hung out with the kids who went to Shaker Heights High? He probably attended both the Lower Campus and the Upper Campus of the University School.

 

I thought it would be interesting to have a guy who's a Hayes in blood but was raised as a total Blue Blood snob, and that's where Mark had the idea to make him from an affluent, old money (not anywhere near Wade's family but still rich) family. Although unlike Wade, the Carrswolds seem like they're at the end of the line, about to die out, which is why they adopted Matt to try and keep the family line going. We never wrote Matt as having cousins, aunts, or uncles, right? I kinda figured that both his parents were only children, and the Carrswold line just wasn't that fertile, which is why they're dying out. It does happen- Abraham Lincoln's line died out by 1985.

 

 

   I liked the bit about what Matt's parents had to do in order to fly. Nice touch about the post-9/11 world. I'm still waiting for you to add in "Terror Level" color alerts, though. LOL. (Although I can't remember- were we still having those in 2002 or had that already faded out?)

[B1ue]

    In any event, is there any guy who doesn't look back on what he was like at 22 and cringe? Most guys that age still have a lot of growing up left to do.

 I don't. Both because, at 22, I was working close to 60 hours a week trying to get on top of a job in an industry I'd never considered, and because thinking that "I had a lot of growing up to do at 22," implies I don't have just as much growing up to do at 30. I've made mistakes all over the place. I will continue to do so. While I'd rather I not make them, cringing at what I did in the past is pretty pointless.

 

If anything in my past is going to make me cringe, it's not going to be moments related to not being grownup enough.

 

And who really could when you have grandfathers and grandsons sharing lovers (Will and Stef with Gathan), fathers and sons (Robbie and Will with Jeff) and any number of odd, non traditional couplings.

 

That is why the sudden "OMG" over Brad and Wade has me baffled.

 

I should probably stay quiet on this issue, except to agree with your logic. Hell, I never saw anything wrong with Matt sleeping with Tony, although I could see why some of the characters would. THIS brouhaha leaves me baffled.

Edited April 4, 2014 by B1ue

[Daddydavek]

Chapter 11 is up and is an emotionally charged chapter from beginning to end.  Clearly Matt, Wade, Brad and Will are not in a good place to be yet and they have a lot left to process.  The shadow of 9.11 is never far for them and then life intervenes and provides additional heartaches.  

 

I don't see any early resolution to much of what is tearing them apart and certainly not an easy one. 

 

Talk about volcanoes!

[mmike1969]

Re Will: from the start of the relationship with Zach, he knew it might come to this point so why is he upset now?

 

"I know what I am getting myself into" is a line from Will in 9.11.

 

Re Zach: it is entirely possible that Zach was clueless to the rumors that was spreading at the school. (This is based on personal experience: in 1986 local cops picked me up at my high school and that got some attention. Jump to 1989 in the US Army

at Ft Gordon, to 1991 Giessen, Germany and 1992 to Ft Bliss, I was recognized by fellow graduates of my high school but I had no idea who these people were.)

 

There is also the fact that Zach was not socializing with his fellow students because he was spending all his time with Will. Yeah, people DO notice that.