Streak

[Headstall]

I think you're right about "this generation" with the exception of Will.  He stepped in to help Pat out, and he's also gotten pretty close (smirk) to Pedro.  He also got pretty emotional when he moved to Palo Alto and left Rosa behind. 

I agree totally about the assessment of Will. I am not going to pretend that I yet know JJ and all his motivations...but he is becoming a main character now and we learn more about him every chapter. At this point it is not inconcievable to me that JJ picked Rosa because he does care about her. I have to think that there is more to JJ than meets the eye...I have already discarded my opinion that he is a heartless, spoiled diva. I do think that he is adept at hiding from those around him and only allows people to see what he wants them to (unless he gets riled and lets his guard down). He hasn't had the best, most nurturing parenting(Jeannie's coddling of him did more harm than good ) so it would make sense to me that Rosa WOULD be important to him. If it was all about his dietary needs he could have hired a personal chef in Boston, so I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one and not sell him short. He can be a selfish, spoiled teenager AND still care about certain people...even those "beneath" him....cheers

Edited August 30, 2014 by Headstall

[methodwriter85]

    So, it was nice to see Will honor the whole deal about not poaching other family member's love interests, but what if Alex isn't interested in JJ? That kind of seems stupid if you hit a situation where you and another family member like the same guy and said guy is interested in one and not the other. In this case it's not like Will has any real feelings for Alex, but what if you hit a situation where both Will and JJ had feelings for the same guy, and said guy had real feelings for say Will? That seems kind of dumb to put the "family card" into play here.

 

   In any event, know that Alex knows that JJ is pretty virginal, JJ will make a pretty suitable Madonna for him.

 

    I really do like that after years of Will, we're getting to follow a teenager that is less 14-going-on-25 and more naïve 16-going-on-17.

 

   From the previous chapter...

 

 

With Wade's nickname and how he reacts to it, we're seeing some of the same grumpiness that JP developed when he got older. I suspect Wade will also unwittingly become the butt of Riley's jokes at some point in the future. :-)

 

      Sounds good so long as the dynamic isn't, "Riley has the body of a 17-year old man when he's 13 and Wade just can't handle his son's precocious physical maturity", I'm down.  

Edited September 2, 2014 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Guys come and go. Even friends come and go. But family can get revenge that lasts for YEARS.

 

The appropriate thing to do would be to talk to JJ, if they ever wind up in a situation where they both like the same guy. Because it ultimately is Alex's (or whoever's) choice who he pursued, but you don't necessarily have to return those affections. And sometimes buying a bit of family stability could be worth it.

 

Mind, that applies to an actual relationship. Mere sex can be gotten over, although you still run the risk of elaborate revenge.

[methodwriter85]

I do think JJ in Revenge-mode could be very, very scary, because something tells me he wouldn't be like Brad or Will, burning hot, doing something destructive, and then it's done. It would be very cool, methodical, and last for years.

[tim870]

I would like to think that Will has hurt various members of his family and regretted it enough times that he would not hurt JJ by going after someone JJ has feelings for, even if Will and whomever did have feelings for each other. Post 9-11 family is pretty important to him. He'll still fight and piss them off, but he wouldn't knowingly hurt one. I think if the situation came up and he developed feelings for JJ's crush, he would do the same thing he just did; stop, think, and realize that his brother is more important than another man.

Also, thanks for clearing something up for me. I've been reading lots of comments about the "Will haters." I've not really followed the reasoning for it. Of course I only started reading this saga in July and flew through the whole thing in two months (except for the actual 9-11 chapters. I just can't. I was so teary eyed when Robbie and Will made up after the runaway I could barely see the screen.) You pointed out that it's been years of Will's tiresome behavior. I get it now!

[methodwriter85]

I think the thing is, Will's been a front-burner character through Poor's Man's Son, Paternity, 9.11, and Flux (although to a lesser extent.) This is the furthest in the background we've seen him- it's the first time since Millennium where Will isn't really driving the theme/action etc etc of the CAP story forward. When you have a character that is on that much, it opens the character up to a lot of criticism from the readers. Especially when readers were used to the idea that someone might be main narrator for two stories straight at most and then recede to the background (this was the case for JP- CAP, 1968, then Brad- Be Rad, Man In Motion), and were then treated to three straight stories that were incredibly heavy on Will and Will's issues, and then a 4th one on top of that that was still somewhat heavy on Will.

 

And in order to keep someone that front-burner of a character, you need to give them issues and dramas and conflict, and therefore they can't be calm, rational, and cool all the time. They have to make stupid mistakes, misjudgements, etc etc in order to keep that drama going. Which Will did, and which also got him a lot of criticism because Will is not held to the standard of a teenager, because it has been judged in CAP World that Will is supposed to be mature enough to be an adult even though he's still only 16. So there's that disconnect that's felt by the Will-haters- being told that Will is supposed to be this worldly, mature-beyond-his-years guy, and seeing him doing stupid teen crap like what happened with Erik Delgado. I seriously came to blows with Mark after being pissed off that Will dealt with exactly zero fallout from his camping trip shenanigans freshmen year at Harvard-Westlake.

 

Which is another facet of why people tend to have issues with Will- because he represents the privileged rich kids who can do whatever they want, and then get a pass because they're rich. I don't think it bothered people as much that JP, Brad, and Stefan have done a lot of shady things, but we were also weren't told that they're Social Justice Warriors Who Are Wise And Mature Beyond Their Years, with Will being positioned as the Second Coming of Tonto. It's a cold hard reality that the world works this way (I got a reminder of that recently with a Delaware judge who let a DuPont get away with molesting his own children), and Mark doesn't shy away from that. Still, it bugged and I got angry. Particularly because again, Will has been presented as thinking he has high moral ground on a lot, yet he constantly got away with things he shouldn't have because again, he's rich.

 

I've backed off from that, and I think Mark started writing Will as a much better character in 9.11. Will's realization that he's not ALWAYS in the right and the way he finally kicked Tony to the curb did a lot to redeem Will in my eyes during that story. And I gotta admit, his budding relationship with Zach did a lot, as well. He's come a long way from the Will I wanted to throttle during Paternity and almost quit the story because of it.

[Timothy M.]

I seriously came to blows with Mark after being pissed off that Will dealt with exactly zero fallout from his camping trip shenanigans freshmen year at Harvard-Westlake. 

 

I get most of what you said, but this part had me going     what?

 

As far as I recall, Will was only one of several people involved in fucking, smoking and drinking on that trip, but he was singled out, because he said he was the one who owned the bottle, when they were caught. He did this to save his friend.

This incident was one of the main triggers of his subsequent freak-out and running away, because Brad never bothered to hear his version of the story. So I'd not exactly call this 'zero fallout' !

Plus, since none of the other participants got any trouble in school, except for doing a bit of extra work in the school facilities (as Will was told by the headmaster on his return), why should Will? But maybe you think they should all have been punished? Fine with me, but it would have nothing to do with Will being a controversial CAP character.

 

regards from a devoted Will fan

[impunity]

I love Will and I'm not ashamed to admit it!

 

Also, the expectation that Will act like an adult has been even though he was 13-15. Sixteen just happened between the last chapter and the one we're expecting (*nudge, wink*) tomorrow.

Edited September 4, 2014 by impunity

[tim870]

I can see your reasoning as far as the narrator situation goes. When I first started reading "The Land Whore" it really threw me because I kept thinking "where!s JP? Stefan is a secondary character." Luckily I got used to it before "Be Rad."

And you're totally correct about the total injustice of rich people getting away with everything. It is the way the world works. Of course I've had twenty more years to get used to the idea, so it's easy for me to think that. Also I lived through the 80's as Mark did. Movies like "Wall Street" and TV shows like "Dynasty" and Dallas" not only let rich people get away with everything up to and including murder, they celebrated it.

That said it does seem that Will is getting away with lots of stuff. However, in those stories we are only seeing his point of view. Mark has said very little about what Brad, Robbie, Stefan, JP, etc were thinking at the time. It was all from Will's point of view. I'd like to think that in their minds they probably felt the same way many of the readers did, "why can't you just be a normal child for once in your life?" Mark also pointed out a few times that Brad wanted to stop whatever Will was doing but knew he couldn't, legally anyway, so he acquiesced. And he's starting to realize he was the same way at that age. What I would like to see in the future would be for Will to realize what he missed in his childhood and start regressing or at least stop moving forward. Sort of a passive rebellion, not the Katrina level reaction he's so loved for.

[Timothy M.]

Childhood isn't always the fun and games and happiness it's portrayed as. I think Will would have been happy to do 'childish' things if people had treated him like the intelligent boy he is. But since Jeanine and to some respect Brad and Robbie didn't respect him as a person while he was viewed as a child, Will had to 'grow up' and become independent. Almost all his fights with Brad happened when his dad underestimated him and ordered him around.

The only person who consistently treats people according to their mental abilities and not their age is JP. No wonder Will has always loved and respected him. The thought of disppointing JP is a much greater deterrent from foolishness than anything else in Will's life (at least until he fell in love with Zach).

[tim870]

I agree totally. I had actually started saying that but I'm doing this on my phone and tired out. How do kids do this all the time and so fast??? *sigh* I guess I need to go get a lawn so I can yell at people to get off if it......and pull up their pants!

[Headstall]

Will is who he is. I do get the Will-haters but I am not and have never been one of them. I think the biggest factor in the character development of Will, was that he has always been portrayed as exceptional.As with most things different or outside the norm, that fact is polarizing. Will's actions can most always be traced back to that fact. The question for me is, how should we look at Will now? He has fit more action, drama and experiences in his short life than most twenty somethings. So, do we look at him as a sixteen year old with his youth and party life and teenage attitudes ahead of him, or do we see him as having manouvered his way through a lot of that already? Should we be viewing him as a kid or more of the adult he considers himself to be? Is he really ready for a serious relationship with Zach, at his age, or is this to be considered the crush of a sixteen year old and ridiculous to think of as a feasible long term relationship? I like Will...I like the integrity that I see in him and I think it has always been there, just slowly developing to the point where now, it defines him. I don't think it will be easy to hold on to that integrity but I do think Will has the strength to do it. I see Will questioning things that he does now that he never would have before. I see more depth and maturity to his thinking to the point where he seems to have a different more evolving perspective. Anyone who expects perfection from Will is delusional but I do think for the most part we can expect him to be honorable. I have asked some questions that I don't have answers for...only speculations...but I think we will learn more about what kind of man Will will turn out to be through watching his relationship with Zach, and I don't expect Will-haters to quit the good fight...that polarization is what makes Will an exceptional character and one that some of us LOVE to hate. Cheers...Gary

Edited September 4, 2014 by Headstall

[Kitt]

. So, do we look at him as a sixteen year old with his youth and party life and teenage attitudes ahead of him, or do we see him as having manouvered his way through a lot of that already? Should we be viewing him as a kid or more of the adult he considers himself to be?

 

Why do we need to view Will at one extreme or the other?  My father passed on to the next existence at the age of 77, and till the day he died he was the proverbial teenager.  Please don't misunderstand - he was a great father and a good provider, but his outlook on life was "Growing old may be manditory, growing up is optional."

[Daddydavek]

I've always equated being grown-up with being responsible.  Being responsible doesn't mean you can't have fun, be lighthearted and a bit of a shit disturber.  It does mean taking into consideration the feelings and well-being of those you love and are responsible for however.  I think Will is well on his way to accepting responsibility and acting responsibly.  

[methodwriter85]

 

And you're totally correct about the total injustice of rich people getting away with everything. It is the way the world works. Of course I've had twenty more years to get used to the idea, so it's easy for me to think that. Also I lived through the 80's as Mark did. Movies like "Wall Street" and TV shows like "Dynasty" and Dallas" not only let rich people get away with everything up to and including murder, they celebrated it.

 

 

    See, I grew up in the 1990's, where we at least pretended that greed was bad, and social justice/equality for all/corporations-are-bad were celebrated values. Then again, greed resurfaced in a rather big way during the 2000's. Hmm.

 

     That was the interesting thing about 9/11. It was a big equalizer for them- waitresses were lost right along with high-powered executives and the like. That firefighter who evacuated JJ from his hotel room didn't give a damn who he was.

 

      In any event, it's going to be interesting to see how Brad and Stefan deal with the fact that they're going to profit big-time off the Iraq War, which is going to kill thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. How the Iraq War effects Claremont, which is probably going to see prosperity but also lose their sons and daughters to the war, is going to be interesting.

[Bucket1]

I can see your reasoning as far as the narrator situation goes. When I first started reading "The Land Whore" it really threw me because I kept thinking "where!s JP? Stefan is a secondary character." Luckily I got used to it before "Be Rad."

 

 

Don't let Stef hear you say that - secondary character indeed 

[Bucket1]

 The question for me is, how should we look at Will now? He has fit more action, drama and experiences in his short life than most twenty somethings. So, do we look at him as a sixteen year old with his youth and party life and teenage attitudes ahead of him, or do we see him as having manouvered his way through a lot of that already? Should we be viewing him as a kid or more of the adult he considers himself to be? Is he really ready for a serious relationship with Zach, at his age, or is this to be considered the crush of a sixteen year old and ridiculous to think of as a feasible long term relationship?

 

Will (and the rest of the CAP family) have experienced quite a lot of trauma/drama/action. His response to Zach distributing pamphlets was a good indication that he is rapidly becoming the adult he thinks he is. He is not a "normal" 16 yo.

 

Will will need all that strength and experience as he is about to face some really rough times with Zach - sadly I think the kindest thing Mark could do is have Zach play a game at the elite level then break his knees. Bloody hell, that sounds so bad written down. Apologies for the bitterness but "commercialised" elite sport fucks people over - its a dirty business.

[Kitt]

You may well be right about a career ending injury being a saving grace for Will and Zach. It would affect so much more than Zach's ability to come out of the closet. He has the trust fund Robbie left him so a scholarship is no longer "needed", and frequently football players are spoon fed the lightest course load available to maintain their player eligibility, the end result being a less than adequate education for any career outside of football. We have already seen one example where his "advisers" (his parents and that Barry person) have taken a practice clinic as more important than an internship with a noted historian in Europe.

[Timothy M.]

Will will need all that strength and experience as he is about to face some really rough times with Zach - sadly I think the kindest thing Mark could do is have Zach play a game at the elite level then break his knees. Bloody hell, that sounds so bad written down. Apologies for the bitterness but "commercialised" elite sport fucks people over - its a dirty business.

 

Yes it does sound awful and yet like Kitt I can see the 'attraction' of sorting out the closet problem this way. However, I sincerely hope Mark doesn't even consider giving in to the temptation, since I fear it would ruin the relationship of Will and Zach just as effectively as the strain of keeping it secret and dealing with Zach's silly parents.

 

Can you imagine the pain and disappointment and upset of Zach, if his dream is over before it's even begun? And even a consolation prize of being able to come out of the closet and be with Will openly won't be enough. In fact if Will pointed it out as a benefit, I fear Zach would turn on him and say something very bitter and hateful and unforgivable.

 

Also I think it will do Will quite a bit of good to curb his urges to see everything in black and white or right and wrong. Yes, it's too bad Zach cannot come out and be taken seriously as a football player, but at least if someone threathens to out him, Brad and the rest of Will's family would fall on them like a ton of bricks. If they play their cards right and enlist the help of Will's family, they should have plenty of opportunity to be together - and if they have to spend time acting as friends and not just lovers, it will probably make their relationship stronger in the long run. They'll be forced to find more common ground than just sex. (and I enjoy reading those parts, but it's a sacrifice I'm prepared to make, in order for them to succed as a couple, LOL)

 

Plus Will and Zach are teenagers, not 30 years old and in danger of feeling lonely and unfairly treated because everyone else around them are settling down and they cannot marry the love of their life - or asking stupid questions about finding the right girl and so on. So even if we're impatient to see a HEA solution, I think we need to be patient, just like Will and Zach do.

 

*End of sermon, puts away soap box, goes off to do some writing before bed*  

[methodwriter85]

Yeah, I really don't think Zach having a career-ending injury would be the Happily Ever After here. We've gotten hint after hint that Zach is seriously good, and a real contender for an college, and likely pro, career. Just like JJ wouldn't be happy skating for a high school skating team, Zach wouldn't be happy playing football for a rec league, like Matt is with his hockey team.

 

Zach also doesn't strike me as someone that would be content to just slide by his college courses. He's been written as being pretty smart, and having vastly improved as a student once he transferred out of Claremont High. I don't know if he'll be Dean's List material, but I can see him doing pretty well and getting something out of college beside just a lot of great party stories.

 

Although, since he's doing the Christian Bibleboy thing, he probably can't even really do the crazy parties, anyway. His college years will probably consist of football and dedicated study, because he doesn't really have room to do much else.

[Bucket1]

Mmmmmm… well I do agree that the football-career-ending injury wouldn't guarantee a "happily ever after" life but continuing to play will be rough, tough and down right horrible a lot of the time. Choosing the bibleboy path may make life a little easier but it's not going to be fun. If Mark was looking for a drama filled industry, he definitely found it.

 

And if Mark can pass on some advice to Will, don't EVER suggest that the players are in the entertainment industry. It doesn't go down well. Ever.

[impunity]

I definitely don't think that a career-ending injury would be of any benefit to Zach. Most likely it would lead to a lifetime of bitterness and resentment over "what could have been". Think Al Bundy minus the blue-collar lifestyle (and the obnoxious wife).

Edited September 6, 2014 by impunity

[Bucket1]

All I am really trying to say is that I have seen the future for Zach and it's not fun. In fact its a great pile of shit - if he is lucky it will be gold plated but it is still a steaming mountain of poo. He will have very very few people he can be honest with and the rest is all lies. The macho bullshit is all consuming in this sort of environment. It destroys people and relationships.

 

(deep breaths)

 

I think this is getting a bit too close to home. I will try not to rant too much...

[Headstall]

All I am really trying to say is that I have seen the future for Zach and it's not fun. In fact its a great pile of shit - if he is lucky it will be gold plated but it is still a steaming mountain of poo. He will have very very few people he can be honest with and the rest is all lies. The macho bullshit is all consuming in this sort of environment. It destroys people and relationships.

 

(deep breaths)

 

I think this is getting a bit too close to home. I will try not to rant too much...

I feel for you buddy. From past discussions I know how close this subject is to you and how much it has affected your life. That is what happens with these stories, in some ways, especially Mark's where the drama is so often palpable and so often strikes so close to home. The writing has such an impact that it is sometimes impossible to separate what happens in the story to what we have experienced in our own lives. That is why we have to every so often, try to distance ourselves and take those deep breaths you refer to. We tend to live these lives and dramas with the characters and thus it becomes very personal...I know that happens to me and I have seen it with other fans of great writing. So rant away Bucket and don't feel bad about it...while it is a release, it is also a compliment to the writer and the writing and not something to feel bad about. There is always genuine emotion to what you post and I totally respect that...cheers...Gary

[methodwriter85]

I don't think Zach is headed for a future of complete misery. It might inconvenient, but Zach very much seems willing to pay the price to get what he wants, and that's a trip to The Show. The thing is, Zach doesn't need too many people. He's not like Matt, who needs lots of close friends. He has a few people he can be honest with, and I think that's good enough for him.The rest he can snow. And I think as Zach's shown, he doesn't give a damn about people he doesn't really care about. That's his mercenary, "Lone Soldier" side.