The Edge of the Genre?

[JamesSavik]

miraculous things could happen if more authors tried:

 

-a third person point of view. (not the mental rantings of a teenage boy who's smarter than everyone and has the world out to get him)

-the present tense (oh yes. much more thrilling)

 

lets move past tense and perspective. lets acknowledge different ways of telling a story, different forms. need examples?

 

-a historical document

-a letter (this is what i'm doing for my next story)

-a contradictory series of events that show the limitations of the narrator

-a single event from multiple persepectives (not necessarily HUMAN perspectives, say, what a camera would see if it were fixed to a certain object in a room where the event was unfolding)

-a journal (a little overused, but not so much as the typical story format)

-multiple narrators, but not the lame stories told by two boys who eventually fall in love and in their perspective, seem only to acknowledge each other. no one wants to hear the same predictable love story twice.

-an entire story basically in quotes. anyone read Heart of Darkness? the first few pages come from a narrator, but then the actual story comes from another speaker. i won't get into what this accomplishes here.

-a perspective from a young child or someone who is mentally deficient. here we confront the issue of first person narrators who are allegedly, say, fifteen-year-old boys, but who have a story-telling capability and vocabulary far beyond what the average fifteen year old could have.

-read Diary of a Bad Year by j.m. coetzee and see how that story is told. each page is divided into three sections, the top of which are essays by a man. the middle is the diary of that same man. and then the bottom is the diary of a woman that man becomes interested in. but wait! it gets better. it turns out that the woman's boyfriend has bugged the man and the woman's computer, so the way the text is presented is essentially how the boyfriend sees it. four perspectives on each page!

 

i hope you get the point i'm making. documents whose purpose is not to tell a story, may still inevitably tell a story, and likewise, stories may fail to tell a story, and too many authors fail to acknowledge those limitations, and unfortunately, the readers fail to ask themselves questions about the narrators. what do i mean? i mean people are silly if they read a story from the perspective of a fifteen-year-old gay boy, and see what he endures at the hands of others, and assume that he does not cause problems himself. what is not being said is just as important as what is being said.

 

oh yeah.

 

so yes. gay fiction is stale. but it does not have to be that way.

 

 

Now you're thinking Billy. Which as Old Bob suggested earlier, is the point of this exercise.

[NickolasJames8]

There are some hard realities about being gay and I fear that we set up a lot of young people for disappointment by making it sound like it is all wine and roses.

 

How's this for a story:

 

A twenty-something gay professional who is quietly out takes a job in state government that nobody else wants. By force of will and intelligent management over the years he builds that department into something to be proud of. By the time he's forty, it is the best performing department of its kind in the state. At the request of some friends, he takes a public stand on a bill that would prohibit gay marriage in the state in the 2004 election. Meanwhile a state-senator needs to find a job for his useless son-in-law without a degree and he picks that job. The state senator must first get rid of the guy holding the office. He proceeds to tear down the man and anyone that stands with him. Management at the agency sides with the senator because they can't afford to make an enemy out of someone on the budget committee. He is asked to resign for the good of the agency with help promised to get another position but it never materialized.

 

This is something I'd definitely read....is it online??

 

I think the idea that all stories posted on a gay fiction site have to be romantic is what's stale. Also, in my opinion, the high school genre went stale, too. Of course, I say that as someone who's written two high school sex romp stories that might be my most popular works, but they're easily my least favorite of anything I've written.

 

So I've been trying to branch out and try something different. Time In a Bottle was definitely the most un-gay romance story I've ever written, and I followed it up with the Summer 07 anthology story, another non-gay romance story. If By Chance deals with romance, but their are also more grown up themes that I'm trying to go with, but it's hard, and based on the feedback I'm getting, it's obvious to my readers that I'm struggling.

 

Does that mean the genre is stale? No. I think certain parts of it are growing stale for some of us, but we get new readers all the time, people who are just discovering gay fiction. I had never heard of a gay online story until 2004, so at that point, I was new and all of it was fresh in my mind. As an author, my tastes have changed, and my stories are going to change too. Luckily, there are a lot of other authors, some new and some not so new, who will keep the genre fresh for the newer readers.

[Drewbie]

-a historical document

-a letter (this is what i'm doing for my next story)

-a contradictory series of events that show the limitations of the narrator

-a single event from multiple persepectives (not necessarily HUMAN perspectives, say, what a camera would see if it were fixed to a certain object in a room where the event was unfolding)

-a journal (a little overused, but not so much as the typical story format)

-multiple narrators, but not the lame stories told by two boys who eventually fall in love and in their perspective, seem only to acknowledge each other. no one wants to hear the same predictable love story twice.

-an entire story basically in quotes. anyone read Heart of Darkness? the first few pages come from a narrator, but then the actual story comes from another speaker. i won't get into what this accomplishes here.

-a perspective from a young child or someone who is mentally deficient. here we confront the issue of first person narrators who are allegedly, say, fifteen-year-old boys, but who have a story-telling capability and vocabulary far beyond what the average fifteen year old could have.

-read Diary of a Bad Year by j.m. coetzee and see how that story is told. each page is divided into three sections, the top of which are essays by a man. the middle is the diary of that same man. and then the bottom is the diary of a woman that man becomes interested in. but wait! it gets better. it turns out that the woman's boyfriend has bugged the man and the woman's computer, so the way the text is presented is essentially how the boyfriend sees it. four perspectives on each page!

 

Those of ones I would also love to read.

[corvus]

The more I read this, the more I feel I have a bone to pick with people who think there's nothing left to read. What kind of lousy attitude is that? It's what I expect from anal Confucian scholars who long for the "good old days," or Nazi boneheads who want another Reich, or your generic stick-in-the-behind granddad who complains about toilets because he grew up using the outhouse.

 

I very much agree with Krista:

I think, in readers eyes, things could go stale at times. Finding the stand-out story, by a newer, less known author could be difficult. Right now, some aren't even looking as they're holding out for an absent author or two to return from their busy life or whatever other reason keeping them away. Also, all of the garbage with the same story-lines as the great stories then one can see that things are becoming stale.

 

It's not the story-line or the idea, it's the way the small variations come together. Right now, I have a "New guy in town" story that has 8 pages in the first chapter wrote - started when I was bored, and the variations added to that, over-used plot may (or may not) bring some originality to that type of story. I wouldn't write a story like this if I didn't think there is hope brining an original story to it. Variations keep these types of stories from going stale. But you have to get out there and read a lot more before you can really say things are going stale. There are new great stories with these over used plots.

 

I love DomLuka, and I've reread his stories as many times as I've reread my physics book before my midterm (i.e. a lot), but repeat after me: there are other authors in the world! Don't get stuck in a fishbowl when there's an ocean available. Bad pun, I know, but it illustrates the point.

 

Also, Krista's completely right about story-line vs. variations. Some people say that all the stories that can be told have already been told. Hamlet, which most people agree is one hell of a play, was probably based on "A Spanish Tragedy," a play some other bloke had written; Romeo and Juliet was not the first, and definitely not the last, star-crossed lovers story. The small variations that Krista mentions bring to life fundamental archetypes that we can connect to. They reflect changing times, attitudes, new philosophies, new ways of interpretation. Each successful retelling is a cultural update.

 

I pronounce the Western cow opera as dead, dead, dead stick a fork in it, its done. It has been overdone, under written and over exposed by all of the tv networks 1000 or so mediocre to awful cow operas. Had cowboys and indians had killed themselves at the rate that Hollywood woould have you believe, there wouldn't be any left of either one.

 

It can happen to any genre and exactly by that formula: by producing schlock and believing naively that the audience will always be there.

 

True. The Western genre has fallen out of fashion. Incidentally, last year's best picture winner, "No Country for Old Men," is very much a Western. Predictably, few people have seen it.

 

My complaint against gay fiction in general is that with the exception of a very few authors: Driver, Dewey, Comsie, Freethinker and maybe even Graeme is that the life that gay characters lead, I don't recognize it.

 

I recognize Driver's characters, Dewey's angst, Comsie's My Only Escape and Freethinker's world is the one I grew up in.

 

I don't recognize gay characters as popular, top of their class, with clubs and places to go, accepted by family and friends and even respected.

 

This is probably a generational thing but it is so foreign to my experience that it might as well be science fiction.

 

There are some hard realities about being gay and I fear that we set up a lot of young people for disappointment by making it sound like it is all wine and roses.

 

Ever heard of a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu? Those are characters in the story that are the author's self inserts, living the author's fantasy life. Stories with Mary Sue and Gary Stus are almost universally bad. It's not limited to gay online fiction.

 

Paradoxically, one of the reasons why I read (online) gay fiction is because the life that straight characters lead, I don't recognize it. I can't comfortably have any sort of romantic impulse; I do have anxiety over my identity; I can't not hide in some way or fashion. These things arise best in the best of gay fiction.

 

How's this for a story:

 

A twenty-something gay professional who is quietly out takes a job in state government that nobody else wants. By force of will and intelligent management over the years he builds that department into something to be proud of. By the time he's forty, it is the best performing department of its kind in the state. At the request of some friends, he takes a public stand on a bill that would prohibit gay marriage in the state in the 2004 election. Meanwhile a state-senator needs to find a job for his useless son-in-law without a degree and he picks that job. The state senator must first get rid of the guy holding the office. He proceeds to tear down the man and anyone that stands with him. Management at the agency sides with the senator because they can't afford to make an enemy out of someone on the budget committee. He is asked to resign for the good of the agency with help promised to get another position but it never materialized.

 

Would you read it? Probably not. It's real. It's my story in a paragraph.

 

Moral of the story? No good dead goes unpunished and at some level, every government is feudalism.

 

I won't read your story if it's badly written. If it's well written, I would be engrossed.

 

I agree with you, jamessavick, in that a lot of gay fiction contains characters, situations, plotlines, etc., that are almost insultingly unrealistic. They are tolerate and they proliferate because they become trappings of a genre, the expected rules of a game. These are the things that die out. This criticism, moreover, applies to fiction in general.

 

At this point, I want to double back and address the whole "can't connect to unrealistic things" argument. A story that is sufficiently well written can transcend this sort of obstacle. Take this plot for example: boy falls in love with girl, gets traumatized on beach, lusts after girl forevermore (i.e. becomes a paedophile), falls in love with a girl, marries the girl's mother to be with the girl, seduces/gets seduced by the girl, etc. Who'd want to read that absurd filth? That's Lolita, and it's a masterpiece. A truly gifted author will convince the reader of his framework; the reader, in turn, needs to have the basic courtesy and respect to be open to this persuasion.

 

lesfeuxdemoncoeur wrote a long post which I won't quote... because it's such a long post... But I like his point about what gay fiction must be. I'm less fond of his point about different ways to tell a story. The felicities of form I can savor in a poem (i.e. small doses), but I want fiction to move me, not perplex me. That isn't to say that highly original forms can't be very successful. But that should be subsidiary, a result of the story, rather than the other way around.

 

To conclude, the reason why I'm taking the time to respond to this topic is because I want people to read my stories! And nobody is going to read them if everyone believes that the genre has gone stale and new authors have nothing new or worthwhile to offer. It's a poisonous attitude. Shake it off. :2hands:

[myself_i_must_remake]

I'm less fond of his point about different ways to tell a story. The felicities of form I can savor in a poem (i.e. small doses), but I want fiction to move me, not perplex me. That isn't to say that highly original forms can't be very successful. But that should be subsidiary, a result of the story, rather than the other way around.

 

and obviously i'll have to defend myself.

 

form is extremely important. i'm not trying to sound preachy, but form should not be underestimated. hundreds of old writers would support me on this, if it comes to it, i can find quotes. want stories whose form is ESSENTIAL to their "moving" ability? here -

 

heart of darkness, diary of a bad year, fall on your knees, the way the crow flies, dusklands, in the heart of the country, underworld, fifth business, atonement, beloved, 1984, the hours, mrs. dalloway, incidents in the life of a slave girl.

 

...and that's from a cursory glance at my bookshelf.

 

i think too often people take form as something granted within the story itself. the ability to tell a certain story in a certain is DEFINITELY a moving quality of that story. want another example?

 

people who have sold memoirs that became famous, have they necessarily had the most interesting lives in the world?

 

not a shot in hell. but they know how to tell their story.

 

i have mrs. dalloway listed above as an example, and i think it's worth more examination here because NOTHING THAT INTERESTING HAPPENS IN THE NOVEL. someone commits suicide. that's about the peak of it. but it's how the story is told that has that novel being taught and virginia woolf canonized decades later.

 

so what i'm saying is...

 

That isn't to say that highly original forms can't be very successful. But that should be subsidiary, a result of the story, rather than the other way around.

 

be weary of saying that sort of thing, because to it i can respond that highly original stories can be very unsuccessful as a result of poor form.

[Tiger]

I love DomLuka, and I've reread his stories as many times as I've reread my physics book before my midterm (i.e. a lot), but repeat after me: there are other authors in the world! Don't get stuck in a fishbowl when there's an ocean available. Bad pun, I know, but it illustrates the point.

Amen to that! Yes, his stories are fantastic, but that does not mean that we cannot read other authors. There are some great stories to choose from! There are also great stories to write. I, for one, do not do the typical high school type of story. I have one with two gay high school students at the center, but there is so much else going on the story. I like creating universes with lots of stuff going on. I like to keep things interesting. Above all, I do not pigeonhole myself as an author. I like to read and write multiple genres, because I get bored otherwise!

[Drewbie]

Have a question how about the college age gere?

 

I started to read more of college age ones, and not the frat ones, that's a bit stale I think.

 

Think mostly with Originality is hard to find in whatever genre there is, but when I read something I can relate to. Then again like others I think newer authors can write an original or something more different.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Drewbie

[corvus]

and obviously i'll have to defend myself.

 

form is extremely important. i'm not trying to sound preachy, but form should not be underestimated. hundreds of old writers would support me on this, if it comes to it, i can find quotes. want stories whose form is ESSENTIAL to their "moving" ability? here -

 

heart of darkness, diary of a bad year, fall on your knees, the way the crow flies, dusklands, in the heart of the country, underworld, fifth business, atonement, beloved, 1984, the hours, mrs. dalloway, incidents in the life of a slave girl.

 

...and that's from a cursory glance at my bookshelf.

 

i think too often people take form as something granted within the story itself. the ability to tell a certain story in a certain is DEFINITELY a moving quality of that story. want another example?

 

people who have sold memoirs that became famous, have they necessarily had the most interesting lives in the world?

 

not a shot in hell. but they know how to tell their story.

 

i have mrs. dalloway listed above as an example, and i think it's worth more examination here because NOTHING THAT INTERESTING HAPPENS IN THE NOVEL. someone commits suicide. that's about the peak of it. but it's how the story is told that has that novel being taught and virginia woolf canonized decades later.

 

so what i'm saying is...

 

 

 

be weary of saying that sort of thing, because to it i can respond that highly original stories can be very unsuccessful as a result of poor form.

 

You lit major.

 

There's a very blurry line between style and substance. You're right that stories are often successful because of how the story is told. What I dislike reading is stories that are contorted to fit a style. That's artistic egotism. I don't care if every letter in a chapter begins with 'A'. Etc.

 

Seinfeld is what I'm going to hold up to your Mrs. Dalloway. Nothing happens on that show (it is a show about nothing), but it's so good anyway.

 

It still don't agree that form is what makes a story. Actually, I disagree that that's the approach towards a story. If an author thinks: "the girl I see passing my street every day has completely captured my imagination, and the way I can successfully tell her story is by fitting it into a constrained 'diary' form", then I'm definitely willing to give it a shot. But if an author thinks, "That form looks cool. I want to write a wacky-formed story" and then lacks something to actually put that form to, I'd stay away. In other words, if I'm reading a story, and feeling I'm getting is that the author is screaming "look at my cool form!" I'd vomit. But if it comes naturally from the story -- like the triptych of voices in Beloved, the meandering sentences of Saramago, etc. -- then it'd enhance the experience.

 

Would you say that the new-boy-at-school formula is an example of form or substance?

[myself_i_must_remake]

What I dislike reading is stories that are contorted to fit a style.

 

now that i couldn't agree with more, which maybe leads to a revision of my first post.

 

to those following the thread for whatever reason, i would say "see if any of these can make your story stronger" instead of "see if you can make a story to fit this," with regards to my "suggestions."

 

as for your question, i'm going to say i don't see new-boy-at-school as a form really.

 

i also hope it doesn't come off that i'm saying form is everything. plot can work wonders, but this is a given.

 

to be practical, i think writers interested in catering not only to new readers but old ones too, should consider everything everyone has been saying, in a way:

 

if your plot's been used before, come up with a new one.

if you absolutely must use a kind of overused situation, make the most of variation (i think this is krista i'm quoting?)

if your story can be brought out by a particular structure, use it.

 

i feel like i'm slowly leading this topic off track.

[rknapp]

No the genre hasn't gone stale... it's just lost it's passion. There are infinite number of ways to write a story for any genre, it just takes imagination. There are certainly many scenarios which have been explored too much, but I've noticed that a lot of them have started with the well-used scenario, and then branched off to something else. The genre has simply gotten to the point where authors really need to flex their creative juices, so to speak, to create something fantastic. A lot of writers here have that power, it just seems that they haven't been doing so lately? (I haven't read a story on here in many months, so I don't know).

[old bob]

No the genre hasn't gone stale... it's just lost it's passion...... A lot of writers here have that power, it just seems that they haven't been doing so lately? (I haven't read a story on here in many months, so I don't know).

Hi Robbie,

I quite agree with you, but I think the loss of passion belongs to the readers and not to the authors ! You prove it yourself, why didn't you read a story on here in many months ? tired, or lack of time or busy elsewhere ? Isn't it your fault and not the fault of the authors ?

Or maybe I didn't understand your comment well, due to my lack of fluent English ?

Old Bob

[shadowgod]

my my my,

 

So instead of posing the question "Has the genre gone stale" perhaps we should pose the question "Has fiction gone stale"

 

Lets face it guys, there is no story being told now, that at some point has not been told before. All romance is is the same old Romeo and Juliet thing over and over again. Maybe there is no poison, maybe the live happily ever after ala Disney. That makes nothing here original by any stretch of the word.

 

Sure there are different ways to tell a story through its delivery. Just a few weeks ago, for example, I ran across a mystery in a books store that told its story through a myriad of letters, adverts, and scribbled notes; all stuffed inside the pages of the book. Yeah such an attempt is great at first, because it is new and different. Such an approach is, at best, a gimmick. While I enjoy a mystery as much as the next person part of the thrill is to see if I can pick up on the clues in the text, and lets face it with all those loose pieces of paper, something of importance is bound to be lost somewhere along the lines.

 

Then there is the issue of the whole high school subset. Truthfully, a social psychologist will be able to explain this better then I could even begin to, but perhaps it has more to do with some of us reconciling issues in or own history, or a lack of that history in the first place.

 

Discovery, seems to be an overriding theme; discovery of feelings, discovery of love. While doable at a more advanced age, it is ultimately alien as people usually discovery things in adolescence. Another reason the H.S. and college bracket seem popular. Professionals are interesting, but at some point their lives become more about their profession and less about themselves; not to mention the emotional baggage they pull into new relationship and the quandry of sorting all that craziness out.

 

Anyhow, long rambling point being: There is nothing said anymore that even hints at the original, every story has been told. Just every story has not been told by you. Give the story your voice, don't rely on gimmicks, because a gimmick is just that.

 

Steve

[Tiger]

Journal/diaries to me set a different tone for a story. Still, if they are not well done, they do not add to a story. I have actually dabbled in it a little. I do not use them as a gimmick per se. Rather I use them as a good way to gain an understanding of the characters' thoughts and feelings. People often reveal their darkest secrets in journals/diaries, so that is why I see them as a tool more than I see them as gimmicks.

[Michael H]

. People often reveal their darkest secrets in journals/diaries, so that is why I see them as a tool more than I see them as gimmicks.

 

 

TL, F. Scott Fitzgerald said that what people are ashamed of usually makes a good story. Thus the journal is a handy way to get at the character's inner thoughts. As an author, I use certain devices to move my story. It's one of the tools all use with legitimacy.

 

Michael

[Demetz]

Blame the lack of public funds to support writers for I'd surely have had much more written of two stories I think are fairly unique if I wasn't so busy working

[old bob]

So instead of posing the question "Has the genre gone stale" perhaps we should pose the question "Has fiction gone stale"....

Discovery, seems to be an overriding theme; discovery of feelings, discovery of love. While doable at a more advanced age, it is ultimately alien as people usually discovery things in adolescence..... Professionals are interesting, but at some point their lives become more about their profession and less about themselves....;

Steve

The discussion becomes more and more interesting with each post !

Just some points more from my point of view :

Steve, you are right with your remark about discovery in adolescence, particularly when you consider the age scale of the reader (and author) population in GA : the majority is below 30 ! But life expectancy grows in the western world and I can imagine with the years that more and more elders will find their pleasure reading and writing in GA. The problems of "old gays" could be an interesting source of stories, based more on experiences and memories than on discoveries, as a good example, the story "requiem" written by CJames in the Fall 2007 Anthology.

Unfortunately, my English knowledge is too poor to bring my contribution here. The story I'm writing now (in French) about my "adventures" during the last 50 years could also be a good example of discovery of feelings and love . I'm sure a reader would find as much pleasure as I have to write it .

[S.L. Lewis]

All genres have their ups and downs. Unfortunately, like others have said, there are readers who are holding out for those writers whose lives have gotten in the way of their writting. I do know that it took me a good year for me to finish one of my stories since at the time I was trying to juggle a job and school. It's not an easy thing to do. It doesn't help the new writers who come out at this time and their self confidence to get nothing in the way of readership or reviewers.

So right now, the genre isn't really stale as in a low point.

[Michael H]

It doesn't help the new writers who come out at this time and their self confidence to get nothing in the way of readership or reviewers.

 

Rose, this is a sword that cuts two ways. When I review a work I definitely hold back if I know the author is new at this. Also I don't like to review WIPs unless asked to do so. That said, I prefer to comment privately rather than in a forum. Some "reviewers, not all mind you, seem to grandstand a bit.

 

I also believe that not all readers make good reviewers. Some readers miss the author's message in the work and so come away loudly declaring that the story was ca ca. Some readers can't write worth spit and their reviews show it. I also believe a review should be just that, a review, not a book report.

 

Some authors are just now learning to write well. Their spirits are often smothered under a barrage of criticism. And in fact authors who do not grow into their work suffer most with the critics.

 

I also find that writers say they want feed back what they really want is praise--and who among us does not? Many writers when they get feedback (again not a review) they push back, discouraging any further discourse.

 

I think it appropriate to say too that a review need not be a critique. I can tell you about a book with out critiquing it.

 

Michael

[sat8997]

Right now, some aren't even looking as they're holding out for an absent author or two to return from their busy life or whatever other reason keeping them away.

 

Funny, I don

[corvus]

For shame!!! Readers that actually have a mind of their own and prefer to choose what they read and what they don

[Myr]

Have they gone stale?

No. As some of you may know, I am a Harry Potter Fanfiction Nut. If I'm bored and have a few minutes, I usually pull one of them up. There are over 350,000 of them on just FanFiction these days. Granted tons of them suck, but there are some real gems in there. and that's just one little subset of one type of genre.

 

As other people may know, I'm a huge Mercedes Lackey fan. (Last Herald-Mage Trilogy rocks) She writes primarily in the Fantasy genre. Main stream NYT best selling author that happens to have an affinity for writing stories about teen boys. And gay teen boys too. I read a new fanfiction based in her Valdemar world that really really rocks. The author tells me he'll be posting in eFiction here soon. Quite talented.

 

My personal preferences for stories are: Fantasy and Hard Science Fiction. Especially with a gay protagnist or short of that, a teen guy. Fantasy and Science fiction can never get old because you can always come up with something new.

 

It is just a matter of who is posting here and elsewhere on the net at any given time. Most of us can read far faster than writer's can write.

 

Myr