an anthology of suit-up lines ?

[Silvertomcat]

I'm fairly new to this site, although I recognise several authors from elsewhere. It's fantastic to see you all gathered here, along with this forum for questions and remarks. *applauds*

 

I saw that there're several discussions on how sweet/serendipitous/unexpected/... the first meeting of two characters was - so many authors are great with pick-up lines and dialogue.

 

However, as I read through more and more of the stories posted here, I couldn't help but notice that explicit depictions of safer sex are as rare on gayauthors.org as they are anywhere else on the net.

Personally I believe that

1. art has social relevance, either by idealism or by criticism
   
2. e-fiction can be art, even though the establishment is wary of the chosen medium
   

So, if you have a great one-liner to inspire your character/your guy to suit up, I'd like to hear it.

Safer sex scenes that go beyond ten thousand repetitions of "he then rolled the rubber down his throbbing manhood and plunged in the pulsing orifice of love" are welcome too *grin*

[Graeme]

Alas, since I don't write sex scenes, I can't help But you've raised an interesting question about how much should a social conscience impose into a story.

 

Depictions of safe sex are fairly rare, but is that necessarily wrong? If there's a mention of a condom, is that enough for the reader to fill in the gaps for themselves? Do we really need explicit details? I rarely mention characters going to the toilet/bathroom, either, except when there is a story reason for it. That doesn't mean they don't go -- just I don't bother describing it.

 

I hope you don't mind, but I'm also going to move this to the Writers Corner, as it is better suited there, rather than here in eFiction.

 

PS: In case I haven't said it before, welcome! It's good to see you getting involved.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Graeme

[Tiger]

I do write sex scenes. However, I don't feel the need to say whether or not the two individuals are practicing safe sex or not. I like the reader to make the scene his or her own fantasy. That's the beauty of it. There's an openness of interpretation. First of all, I don't even think about the best way to describe putting on a condom without interrupting the flow of the scene. Second, the words would have to be chosen wisely.

[Cynical Romantic]

I guess the real question is: Does the writer have a responsibility to provide a good role model for readers? Or can writing be considered a form of harmless fantasy; an outlet to indulge in things on paper that they wouldn't be able to do in real life? I tend to subscribe to the latter theory - after all, stories can be a form of escapism from real life. Sure, some stories depict unsafe sex practices. But some stories also have model-gorgeous guys who always turn out to be interested in the main character, partners who always have multiple simultaneous orgasms, parents who encourage their teenaged kids to live together in the same bed, convenient car crashes, kids inheriting millions of dollars, not to mention vampires, demons, and people who can fly. That's why they call it fiction.

[Silvertomcat]

I'm feeling suitably chastized now - not only did I post my topic in the wrong forum, it seems I lack any understanding of the basic meaning of fiction. *wink*

 

Seriously, though, I don't think anyone will ever really think they might be Harry Potter's younger cuter stronger brother and anyone with half a brain knows what the odds are about inheriting millions of dollars.

 

I'm just wondering about the ideals being portrayed : it's natural to want to be handsome, so that's an escapist exaggeration that I understand. The desire for 20cm cocks is not one I really understand, but I've come across it in real life enough to know it's real.

 

Is barebacking every author's secret dream then ?

 

I'm looking forward to more discussion, even though my original intention for this topic was a collection of one liners *smile*

[BeaStKid]

The only sex scene I have done does not involve penetration. As such, the topic of safe sex was never brought up. But, I agree with you, and I intend to incorporate safe sex in every sex scene I write.

 

BeaStKid

[Tiger]

I personally don't write Harry Potter fan fiction, and I don't write explicitly about exact penis size. As for barebacking, some have tried it in real life and enjoy writing about while others are curious about it but have not been in a situation where they could trust someone enough to try it. Still others vehemently oppose the practice. I do happen to agree that there are too many stories where there's a large inheritance and parents willing to let their gay sons have others in their beds. Life is rarely, if ever, that convenient. There are some common themes in stories. There's no denying that. I happen to have some of those elements, but I try to mix things up a bit. I'm not one to write something that doesn't have something unusual. I like to challenge myself. I can't speak for other authors, but I would say that a majority of the hosted, shared hosted, and promising authors like to similarly challenge themselves and to engage the audience with something original or at least something uncommon.

[Graeme]

I'm feeling suitably chastized now - not only did I post my topic in the wrong forum, it seems I lack any understanding of the basic meaning of fiction. *wink*

LOL -- Where you posted it wasn't that far off. It's just that as this is a discussion about writing (as in what to include or not include), I thought this is a better place for the thread.

 

Seriously, though, I don't think anyone will ever really think they might be Harry Potter's younger cuter stronger brother and anyone with half a brain knows what the odds are about inheriting millions of dollars.

And this is where the conflict lies. There's a suspension in disbelief in reading fiction, and so exactly how 'real' do you need to make a story? As an example, my last short story largely flopped because the ability to suspect disbelief was too strong and they didn't see what I had intended. That's just inexperience on my behalf, but it also shows that readers don't expect most stories to be realistic.

 

I'm just wondering about the ideals being portrayed : it's natural to want to be handsome, so that's an escapist exaggeration that I understand. The desire for 20cm cocks is not one I really understand, but I've come across it in real life enough to know it's real.

 

Is barebacking every author's secret dream then ?

I doubt it. What many of the authors want to do is portray emotions. A mechanical "insert knob A into hole B" type description is not generally particularly good writing. What many authors try to do is to show the feelings of the characters through words and actions. A loving scene will often involve caresses and kisses, gentle touches and softly spoken words. The mechanics of the act are secondary to presenting the characters' feelings and reactions.

 

For this reason, mechanics that don't add to the emotion are often ignored. Also, just like with dialogue, authors are not trying to portray reality. They are trying to portray something that can pass as reality. Just like in a movie, characters don't speak the way real people speak. All the little hesitations, the slips of the tongue that are ignored because everyone knows what was really meant -- they don't make it into stories or movies. But most people don't realise how unnatural that dialogue is. The same applies to sex scenes. The author needs to show something that feels real and natural, but without all the bits that will disrupt the flow of the story.

 

Very few authors include regular brushing of teeth in their stories, either -- even though there is a lot of kissing. Does that mean that poor dental hygiene and probably bad breath are their secret dreams? Of course not! It just means it's an irrelevant detail that the author has left out as something that doesn't add to the story.

 

I'm looking forward to more discussion, even though my original intention for this topic was a collection of one liners *smile*

The problem with the one liners is that it assumes that the authors want to include that sort of detail.

 

From a social conscience point of view, your question is quite relevant. Should authors include safe sex practises if they include sex scenes, or can they write on the assumption that people will include them without it needing to be mentioned (or not include them, if that is that particular person's 'secret dream')?

 

As an analogy, my own stories are very unrealistic. I've written hundreds of thousands of words so far, but for the life of me, I don't think I've included more than one or two smokers in the entire set. I'm not even sure I've included any -- though I have a vague feeling I had one somewhere....

 

That's the way I am. I don't like smoking and I don't see that I need to include it in a story, even though smoking is a very common practise. I have decided to exclude smoking from my stories because I just don't want to write about it. Readers are free to imagine that some of the characters smoke, but that's up to them -- I don't say one way or another, generally. You could probably assume from the lack of references that none of my characters smoke, but that's just an assumption.

 

Since I don't write sex scenes, the issue is largely academic, but would I include safe sex practises in a story? The answer is maybe. I would probably include a reference to condoms being around (I have had characters in my stories mention condoms, even though actual use doesn't appear), but I would probably leave off the detail of how they were used -- I will assume most readers already know. Instead, I would concentrate on what I felt I needed that sex scene for -- be it love between the characters, the fumbling of inexperienced couples, or the cynical using of one person by another. It is the later stuff that would be more important to me as an author, not the mechanics of how to put on a condom.

 

Just my views And since I don't write erotica, I'm not that well qualified to speak on the subject

[NickolasJames8]

I used to never include a condom in my sex scenes, but one of my favorite authors has never written a scene(that I know of) without a condom. So I wrote to him and asked him why, and his answer was that he felt like it was his responsibility as an author who's read by a lot of people who haven't had sex yet. And I agree, so beginning with my last chapter story, I always incorporate a condom into any sex scene that involves intercourse.

There are subtle ways of putting a condom on one of your characters without disrupting the sex scene, and if you want to, you can actually make it a rather sensual process by involving both lovers in the process.

[Krista]

I'm a strong believer in safe sex so if I write a sex scene there is most usually a condom involved and if there isn't there probably was a mistake I made in my writing, but I am pretty certain that all of my sex scenes ever written have had safer sex practices.

 

As far as your questions, I believe some people stray away from safer sex because they want to, others just don't think about it, it's not that they don't want to write about safer sex, but it's just in the middle of the passion and the relationship taking another level and whatever they just don't want to pause it to write in the "necessaries." So maybe why people don't like writing about their characters going to the bathroom and such could fall under that as well.

 

But I do agree with you, safer sex in stories are a good message to make since people read them, but I don't think people will try to emulate the characters they read about here and not have safe sex. As far as selling safer sex I don't thin that's an author's responsibility.

[AFriendlyFace]

I guess the real question is: Does the writer have a responsibility to provide a good role model for readers?

I think that is the heart of the issue in this discussion.

 

Personally speaking safe sex is something I feel very strongly about.

 

mThat said I'm actually not sure if I've included a reference to condoms in all of my sex scenes. Not because they weren't there, but because in my safe-sex-every-time mind they were there and perhaps taken for granted. For example I wrote one quite long scene once that, upon completion, I realized didn't include an actual reference to orgasm. It included quite a bit of other stuff (including, if I recall correctly, a reference to condoms), but by the time it was 'wrapping up' I didn't feel the need to spell out the orgasm, but I thought it was certainly implied. I would expect my readers to assume that the characters came, just as I would expect them to assume that condoms are present even when they aren't explicitly mentioned (which in my sex scenes they usually are).

 

Is barebacking every author's secret dream then ?

More like a nightmare actually

[Silvertomcat]

I think that is the heart of the issue in this discussion.

 

 

Several posters seem to agree that it's not an author's job to create role models... I think I agree with that.

 

At the same time, I feel it's not possible to publish gay fiction online and ignore the fact that those stories will pop up in some one's early exploration. It certainly did in mine. I think that authors of gay e-fiction do have a responsability to create a context with their stories.

 

This is also a topic of discussion in Gabriel Morgan's forum. Interesting things have been said there... and since Gabriel's the one that lead me here, I'd like to steal a moment to encourage you all to check out his stories *cheeky grin*

[steph]

Several posters seem to agree that it's not an author's job to create role models... I think I agree with that.

This is a total cop out, IMHO. The same thing happens with successful actors and actresses, and with anyone who can make an impression on young (or not so young) minds.

 

In fact, one year I was teaching high school and my students wrangled out of me that I lived with my boyfriend. The majority of them were shocked and voiced as such, and I'm trying not to say, 'Well, if our parents don't have a problem with it, why should you?' Of course, that's kind of a gray area to get into as a science teacher, so I just shugged and changed the topic. But the seed was sown (however unintentionally)!

 

 

At the same time, I feel it's not possible to publish gay fiction online and ignore the fact that those stories will pop up in some one's early exploration. It certainly did in mine. I think that authors of gay e-fiction do have a responsibility to create a context with their stories.

can you explain what you mean by "context"?

[AFriendlyFace]

Several posters seem to agree that it's not an author's job to create role models... I think I agree with that.

 

At the same time, I feel it's not possible to publish gay fiction online and ignore the fact that those stories will pop up in some one's early exploration. It certainly did in mine. I think that authors of gay e-fiction do have a responsability to create a context with their stories.

I agree with you, if anything it sounds like I take it a bit further.

 

I'm irritated by representations of obvious (as opposed to the ambiguous we've discussed) representations of unsafe sex and I absolutely object to teens reading them.

[Duncan Ryder]

Several posters seem to agree that it's not an author's job to create role models... I think I agree with that.

 

At the same time, I feel it's not possible to publish gay fiction online and ignore the fact that those stories will pop up in some one's early exploration. It certainly did in mine. I think that authors of gay e-fiction do have a responsability to create a context with their stories.

 

This is also a topic of discussion in Gabriel Morgan's forum. Interesting things have been said there... and since Gabriel's the one that lead me here, I'd like to steal a moment to encourage you all to check out his stories *cheeky grin*

 

First, I just wanted to say that this is a fascinating discussion, and I think an important one.

 

I think it all depends on what it is you are trying to write.

 

I said this in Gabriel's forum already, but...

 

While I am not trying to write didactically, I do conciously include responsible sex (though I hope not intrusively so--I want it to be romantic, more than anything else).

 

I respectfully disagree about creating role models. Some of us are trying to do that. I am. I write about younger guys, and a lot of the guys I hear from privately are guys that age, many still in the closet and/or completely inexperienced. I've heard from young guys who just make me want to weep...teenagers who say in essence "I never thought there could be anything between guys except the sex, I was afraid it could never be about love." Can you imagine that? Figuring out that your gay and thinking somehow that that meant you could never be in love or be loved?

 

There are enough unhealthy gay relationships out there; we all know the stats and have been through them or our friends have. I personally think that part of the reason is that there are so few healthy role models, and so much insecurity and incertainty in growing up gay. I am hoping that the changes in our society -- like the legalization of gay marriage in Canada -- will change that. I think those of us lucky enough to be in healthy, happy, supportive relationships should try to be good mentors and role models. That's one reason why I try to make my stories be about creating responsible, loving, respectful relationships that work despite those realities.

 

Frankly, I am trying to write the kind of stories that I would have seen myself in, and would have helped me when I was that age. And I want them to be safe, and full of hope.

[Cynical Romantic]

I pretty much agree with what Duncan, Kevin, Steph and Krista have said. Don't get me wrong, I personally wince whenever I find descriptions of overtly unsafe sexual practices in stories. If I were to point to an example of how to write a great love scene, I'd need to look no further than Duncan's stories, since I think they are so brilliantly done that they serve as role models to writers as well as readers. I think the comparison to movie stars choosing not to smoke on screen is a good one, too.

 

But the thing is, where do you draw the line? What about oral sex? While a higher percentage of stories ever - especially those on this site - take care to mention condoms during intercourse, you almost never see a description of an oral sex scene involving condoms or any other forms of protection. Of course, as (I'd hope) most people know, unprotected oral sex is plenty risky for all sorts of diseases, but surveys of teenagers consistently show that most of them don't even believe that oral sex is "real sex", let alone sex that can lead to consequences. I don't know what the actual stats are on kids using protection for oral sex, but I'd venture a guess that they're pretty low. Do writers have obligations to write condoms into every oral sex scene, too?

 

And what about other destructive practices or irresponsible behaviours? One-night stands, cheating, drug use, lying, teenage pregnancy, violence, abusive relationships, or a whole host of other things like that? Characters in stories do these things all the time; some learn their lesson, some don't. I just finished reading a story where the main characters - high school students - spent almost the entire time smoking joints. Isn't that just as irresponsible as scenes depicting unsafe sex? But I was willing to overlook it, despite being strongly opposed to drug use, because the story was well written and the characters were depictions of humans, not of saints.

 

Look, I'm not arguing with the importance of educating kids about safer sex practices. It's just that I think that, for many people, writing is a form of expression, and the form that that expression takes can vary. Also, characters are imperfect beings. Nobody wants to be preached to, and nobody wants to read about perfect characters; they make for pretty boring protagonists, after all. People screw up sometimes, and writing is often about those screw-ups.

[AFriendlyFace]

I completely and totally agree with everything in Duncan and Cynical's (LOL, I'm used to calling you hotchik! what would you like me to call you?) last posts!

 

Also, regarding Duncan's statement about there not being enough visible, positive gay role-models out there I completely agree!

 

I've also encountered this "guys are for sex, girls are for love" attitude on more than one occasion, and really it's no surprise given the way we, as a society, raise our boys.

 

To help combat this, I think I'll go start a thread in the Lounge asking people to share their positive experiences of being in a gay relationship.

[Cynical Romantic]

I completely and totally agree with everything in Duncan and Cynical's (LOL, I'm used to calling you hotchik! what would you like me to call you?) last posts!

 

Sorry for the name change confusion; I signed up here on a whim using a handle I'd used in the past to post a couple of stories on another site. But I felt a little silly about it here, so I changed it to a name that probably describes me more accurately. You can call me whatever you like, as long as you keep those story chapters coming.

 

Also, regarding Duncan's statement about there not being enough visible, positive gay role-models out there I completely agree!

 

Back to the original topic at hand, I think one of the authors on this site that does an excellent job of incorporating safe sex into his stories is Dom Luka. Definitely some good one-liners in his stories to add to the "anthology".

 

I've also encountered this "guys are for sex, girls are for love" attitude on more than one occasion, and really it's no surprise given the way we, as a society, raise our boys.

 

Agree with this statement. It also has a lot to do with how society raises girls.

[Silvertomcat]

Some posters above have said that authors write to express their creativity, not to get on their soapboxes and preach. I respect that, even though I'll still pester them, if the mood strikes me *wink*

 

I think several posts here fit in with my concept of the context authors can, should and do create, in my opinion.

By writing about cool characters who do normal things, and who have safer sex as part of their routine, authors can demonstrate to all readers, be they impressionable or experienced that safer sex is an acceptable reality.

 

Look, all I'm trying to say is : statistics aren't everything. Ain't that the truth ? *grin*

 

I was 24 when I decided to explore. I used the internet in many ways : I didn't feel quite brave enough to just step into a gay bar and find a guy, so I turned to dating sites. I also used internet to learn the meaning of code like FF, GWM, GSOH, watersports... Eventuallly I figured that "vanilla" was the code I needed for my first time. I read up on safety tips for internet dating : double check information (don't call me, give me your number and I'll call you to see if your number's correct), meet in a public place near a taxi stand, inform a friend and pick a time when you'll get in touch with this friend again...

I had also read up on STDs : what's out there, how does it transmit, how frequent is each STD...

And, last but not least, I'd read up on the actual sex. Given my late blooming, I didn't want to rely on some long dormant instinct, so I needed solid info on tactics, positions, techniques.

 

All that preparation stood me in good stead, and all in all, my first time was all I'd hoped for, and more.

 

The only downside : safer sex. From the beginning I'd had to insist on it myself. By the time we got to round three (the shower scene) I was starting to feel awkward --- he seemed so casual about it, was I being neurotic/hypochondriac/silly/... ?

 

This doubt was driven home that night by all the stories I'd read : those authors had helped me with descriptions of positions and techniques, but almost all of them dropped the condoms. With my insistence on safe sex, I felt like a minority of one. Mightn't authors have changed that ?

 

I think this is a good moment to point out that the stories collected on gayauthors.org are different in nature than those on most other sites like 'the nifty archive'. I feel that here, many more authors than average write---relevantly.

[Gabriel Morgan]

This doubt was driven home that night by all the stories I'd read : those authors had helped me with descriptions of positions and techniques, but almost all of them dropped the condoms. With my insistence on safe sex, I felt like a minority of one. Mightn't authors have changed that ?

 

Well, damn... Silvertomcat started a similar thread on my forum and I came away feeling all defensive that I hadn't had bushels of condoms spilling from every dresser drawer each and every time the boys so much as thought about sex.

 

But after reading his posts here, and thinking about some private conversations we've had, I'm sorry that I wasn't more aware of the possible uses my stories might have been put to.

 

(did I help you with positions, at least???)

[jfalkon]

Great topic guys!

I have to agrea that stories often neglect real dangers. This is not just the case with diseases but with many risky behaviors. I think we all like to see the character get away with something. The problem I see is when everything in a story is very realistic except no one wakes up the next morning with a nasty rash or something worse.

 

I don't think a condom has to disrupt the entire scene, though that could be funny if you like comedy. I don't write anything that explicit but if I did I think it would go something like this:

 

"Joe kissed Bob letting his hands explore the firm body now so close to his. When they stopped to take a breath Bob handed him a small plastic packet confirming that they both had the same intentions."

 

I'm sure that could be improved on but you get the idea.

[Graeme]

Even easier, just have one of the characters notice that there's a couple of condoms on the bedside table. That's enough to know that they'll be used -- you don't need to explicit state when they were used.

[kitten]

Great topic guys!

I have to agrea that stories often neglect real dangers. This is not just the case with diseases but with many risky behaviors. I think we all like to see the character get away with something. The problem I see is when everything in a story is very realistic except no one wakes up the next morning with a nasty rash or something worse.

 

"Joe kissed Bob letting his hands explore the firm body now so close to his. When they stopped to take a breath Bob handed him a small plastic packet confirming that they both had the same intentions."

 

Personally, I think that deliberately trying to squeeze condoms into a story is like including the fact that people fasten their seat belts when they get into a car, or that they wipe their bum after going to the loo, or wash their willies before having oral sex. It should be just assumed, unless the use (or non-use) of the condom is an important part of the story (e.g. to highlight the reckless personality of a character). Otherwise it's just not very interesting and can disrupt the flow.

 

As for the public health education aspect - cigarettes cause at least as many serious illnesses and deaths as STDs, so should we include in our stories passages that discourage people from smoking? Should we mention the dangers of excess alcohol intake? Should we always mention seat belts when driving?

 

Obviously, if the dangers of excess alcohol are important to the plot (e.g. a character has cirrhosis or gets drunk and beats his children) then it should be mentioned in the story.

 

Of course writers shouldn't encourage reckless behaviour (e.g. by saying 'hey, guys, it's much more fun bareback') but that's not the same as not mentioning it at all. Do all love scenes and sex scenes on TV and in movies mention condoms? Do all movies have a warning about smoking and drinking when they show such behaviour in bars?

 

If we write about theft, murder or rape do we have to include a warning that these are bad things? Should we ban all scenes which include smoking and drinking? Should we ban all movies and video games that depict violence?

 

If a particular writer wants to mention condoms specifically in all his stories then he has every right to do so. The readers can judge for themselves whether he's preaching or just being socially responsible and judge his story appropriately. However, I think that it is wrong for one writer to tell another that he OUGHT to mention condoms specifically in all his love/sex scenes.

 

Kit

[jfalkon]

I didn't meen to imply that there should be a rule about what may be presented in a story. I actually hate when other people try to put restrictions on what I can do. There has been a rash of new anti smoking rules where I live and it drives me crazy even though I don't smoke. Certainly it is every writer's choice how his characters behave.

 

I don't like reckless behavior glamorized but there are plenty of situations where danger could or should be part of a story. As for emphasizing safety, I think its worth doing but not to an extreme. If it breaks up the scene I don't think a saftey measure should be forced on the reader but if it can be harmlessly included why not use it?

[S.L. Lewis]

Okay, so I read. Paused and thought about it. Read some more. Reread a few posts. Typed my response to a rp. And read some more.

 

And I have this to say. While yes, it is a good idea to make sure that your sexual scenes do include safe sex, it's not always possible. Not with some stories out there. I know I have a few stories in the works where safe sex is not going to be possible...at all. Mostly because of the time periods. Condoms didn't really exist for many centuries, so that excuses those stories set during those times.

Other stories are set with a supernatural element, such as vampires, fairies, ect. There's a nother type of story excused.

It all depends upon the story, the author and if it fits. And yes, this has been said before by others.

I have to say, that authors should at least promote safe sex in authors notes when a chapter does have sex. It's easy to do a quick little end note that says "I promote safe sex. Use protection, even with oral."