just my opinion

[gay_lutheran_cody]

Hi Mark:

 

I started reading the Chronicles of an Academic Predator series, around NOvember 2009, and am already on Bloodlines....a great series...my favorite characters are Brad and Robbie, and Wade and Matt

 

At first though, I was upset because the stories were so anti-Christian and calling all Christians 'bigot gay haters', and I got defensive, but then realised its just a story. But to point out, not all Christians hate gays, as far as I know the Episcopolians, Methodists and Lutherans do not hate them. Now the Episcopolians and Methodists do ordain gays and lesbians into the Holy Pastoral Ministry, however the Lutheran Church remains divided on that topic....The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) voted last year to open the ministry to gays and lesbians....The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (which I belong to; its headquarters are in Missouri, but there are congregations all over the USA) does not ordain gays, however they are open and accepting, and open their doors to gays....I just want gays who are atheists (mainly because they think Christianity rejected them) to know that Jesus loves all people unconditionally, and that not all Christians want them dead or in hell...I am a Lutheran and proud of it...if there is a Christian denomination that I recommmend, it would be the Lutheran Church, and I'm not saying that because I am one.

 

Just wanted to get my opinion out, and sorry if I offended you or anything...Ever since April 2009, I have been involved in things like this, trying to be almost like a missionary (but was never told to do this) to tell gays who are questioning whether or not Jesus loves them, that He does regardless of their race, sexual orientation, etc.

 

If you write another story in this series (or any other story) and a church is involved...please consider the Lutheran church.

 

Take Care and God Bless

 

Cody

 

 

[Mark Arbour]

Well, I'm not one for religion, but I try to respect the views of those who are. It gets tough sometimes, especially when faced with crusading evangelicals that want to judge the world. I'm trying to work my way towards a more benign attitude, and I think I'm getting there. I've come to the conclusion that some people need spirituality, and others don't. And I've also come to the conclusion that those who need it seek it in different ways. I've known lots of Christians who don't buy into the dogma, but because it feels comfortable, and helps get them to where they want to go, they stick with it.

 

As for Christianity, I have two major problems with it. First of all, any religion that purports to have the ONLY way to heaven is problematic. It's not a far leap from "My religion is the only one that will get you into heaven" to "I will kill you if you don't worship my God." If you look at the world, the most militant religions are the ones that take this view (consider Christianity and Islam, as opposed to Hinduism). I find it hard to fathom that a loving and merciful God would have put all these religions on earth if he didn't want to give people different paths to him.

 

The second part is the rigid adherence and fanatical defense that all things in the bible are true. That is virtually impossible, considering the multiple languages it's been written in, and the multiple authors of it's various books. But even more telling is the editing over which things to add and subtract by the early Church. I think of the bible like I think of the constitution: a guideline, but not a definitive source of answers on all topics. It requires interpretation.

 

So I guess it's my turn to hope I haven't offended you. And I do hope that. The attitude that emanates from your post is the one that most of us would like to think of when we think of Christians IMHO. Caring and not judgmental. But there are also the Fred Phelps of the world out there, and they do make for wonderful fodder when writing gay fiction. Incidentally, the last church I belonged to was a MO Synod Lutheran church.

[Nephylim]

I am definitely with Mark on this one, being someone who is also 'trying to work my way towards a more benign attitude' and maybe not succeeding as much as I hoped I might for some of the same reasons and others which are my own.

 

I have to admit that try as I might I cringe and get angry when someone tells me that 'Jesus loves me' and the very mention of Christianity makes my skin crawl. This is not something I am proud of and it is something i am actively trying to work past but there it is...

 

However, your post was open and honest and I respect you for it. To be frank it gives me hope.

[Mark M]

ohhhhh now this topic is definatly one i do wish to also share an opinion!!!! I see you are about 16ish about the time when i really got involved in a Gospel Chapel or as one of my peers parents called it "Protestant" i was like oh? so i'm not Christian? i don't get it, myself i've always held a belief in higher powers but as it's said, it's undescribable and we will never understand. Personaly i'd rather be a pagen because i love Greek Gods and there "abilities" that hollywood has given them. (or computer games IE: Zeus, Posidion"

 

I would like to be involved in a church that doesn't lock it's doors (like so many do now because of there "technology" they use) I believe the church is never ment to be locked, the fact you now use projectors and 5,000 speaker systems is no difference. Plus i had a conversation with an aunt about religion, as a mom of five children, she like the short 20 minute services, that way she could keep her family under control because having to keep ages 5-13 under control is almost impossible for the now....3-4 hours of service there has been created. Officialy she thinks going to church anymore is not nessasairily the path to "Heaven". Myself i tend to agree as a teen of 16-17 i hated forcing myself to go....for three hours....it was hard...very hard.

 

I also worked at a Bible camp As a junior councelor, learned alot but then had this man from austraila show up at a campfire and give a whole speach on how he was gay, and his mom was a lesbian and she joined a church that accepted them, he felt welcomed and somehow he was sitting in his booth (as like a car-lot payment person, the ones in the cube after you park your car in like underground paid parking) and a feeling washed over him and he cried and then he was "Learning" to understand girls.....i was like UGGG i understand you want to be on that side of the fence but i just can't see myself hiding away like that (Especially when family and friends have no problem with me and my sexual orientation). I honestly wonder if someone who has been gay, and in a straight relationship ever felt trapped? or completly lost the attraction to men entirly or still lusts after them. Funny thing is he also said he only slept with straight guys.....which freaked me out a little!

 

Anyway i now know that i will not go back to that camp because i barly sat through it. but i still like to believe in a high power, and the fact since i love si-fi, fiction and fantasy that Jesus is real and did that, because that'd just be cool

 

Anyway....i do not know what my religion is anymore, i'd like to say i have none, but i also would like to be included as a christian because it is the biggest. and well...bigger is better? not really sure. But i have not been to church in about 2 years. and in the last 7 months i have been in the process of comming out....but i have yet to find a religious nut freak on me, or a homophob at that....

 

I do know alot of christian history and it's not a pretty picture thats for sure...so i duno where my attitude lies.....can anyone let me know how i personaly sound writing this statement how they think i sit in my beliefs? (I will not freak, PM you opinions.) that'd be GGGRRREEEAAAT!

Edited January 14, 2010 by Mark M

[gay_lutheran_cody]

Well Mark A, you have not offended me one bit, as long you don't force me to become an Atheist or something else like that, we should get on fine!

 

Mark M, what churches have you belonged to, which one did you like best? By the way, services in the Lutheran church last about an hour and fifteen minutes, at least at my congregation.

[Mark M]

Catholic till i was about 9 and then well a Gospel Chapel.....it's associated with a bible camp and it's associaed with CSM Canadian ministries or some whatnot.....either way they just call themselves "Christian..........which is as far as i was told it was....never a specific religion i dont think but bible orientated....

[JamesSavik]

You guys may be interested in watching the documentary that I posted: the Bible Tells Me So.

 

Many Christians DO actually stand for something besides hating gays. For somebody like me, deep in the heart of the "babble" belt, sometimes its not so easy to notice.

 

BTW- welcome Cody. I might have been a Lutheran myself but my ancestors settled in Mississippi after buying a compass from a street vendor in New York when they arrived. Mississippi, Minnesota.. its a mistake anyone could have made right?

[Enric]

as opposed to Hinduism

 

I have found that there seemingly is one thing in hinduism I do not appreciate: I hear that religion does not accept divorces.

If so, then they spread misery.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Enric

[Enric]

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (which I belong to; its headquarters are in Missouri, but there are congregations all over the USA) does not....

 

I have understood that the Missouri synod is the conservative one of the two main kutheran networks in America. Even reactionary. anyway, pretty rigid, I gather.

 

By the way, there are lutheran hierarchies in the world which oppose gays and everything gays need....

So, the existence of some possibly more liberal camps among lutherans, does not make that good.

[methodwriter85]

Cody, you might also want to take into consideration that Mark's stories are historical. The two stories that deal the most with religion- Be Rad and Bloodlines- take place in 1980 and 1998, respectively. It was an entirely different world just 12 years ago, let alone 30 years ago. Even as recently as 1998, there were many people who were not yet out of the closet, and they didn't have resources like Gay Author's message boards to help them come to terms with being gay. Since religions weren't yet being called on the fact that they weren't as inclusive of GLBT people because many people were still hiding, they weren't really forced to make a decision on whether or not to be inclusive.

 

And as for 1980's Be Rad, Mark is reflecting a reactive society that was going conservative as a reaction to the social upheaval of the 1960's and the 1970's. Evangelical christianity was on the rise at the time, and the upcoming AIDS crisis of the 1980's would unfortunately be spouted as some sort of "punishment" for the gay community.

 

Recently, religions have become more accepting, but that honestly was not the case 10, 30 years ago.

[gay_lutheran_cody]

I'm sorry all, I guess its because I'm 16, young and stupid, also have ADHD, I can't grasp some simple things.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm sorry all, I guess its because I'm 16, young and stupid, also have ADHD, I can't grasp some simple things.

 

Well, young stupid one, let's evaluate that.

 

First of all, youth is something to treasure. Just ask any of the really old guys in here (like me, James, or Hoskins) what we wouldn't give to be 16 again. I would have so much more sex than I did.

 

Secondly, youth does not make you stupid. A closed mind, an inability to use logic and reason, those things can make you stupid, but not youth. The epistle (I used a biblical term just to make you happy) you posted to start this topic would show you to be anything but stupid.

 

Finally, there's nothing wrong with having ADHD. I have a scorching case of ADD. It makes it harder to focus, but easier to be creative, in my experience.

 

You DO need to get a little thicker skin, and realize that in a forum, it's hard to convey the nuances that you could in a live conversation. No one's dissing you here. So relax and make yourself at home.

[rjo]

Well here goes. I think where is a great differnece between faith and religion. Some people use organized religion as a weapon which it was never meant to be. Faith is much different. There is a MCC church near me here in Minneapolis those sign asks the question what would Jesus do? Jesus would accept everybody no matter what. God is love pure and simple and love is love. I also belong to the LCMS a small accepting congragation with people who really care about each other. Not all Lutheran Churches do that. Not all churches do that. Not all religions do that. But they all should. When Frank was talking to Matt parents at Thanksgiving he said JP and his family over the years showed that love. JP may not be religious but he does have faith in people. He cares he loves. Thank you Cody for bringing this up. As Gay people so many times we feel rejected by religion and churches, but it is very important we don't feel rejected by God. We may reject him at times but he never rejects us. Never.

[gay_lutheran_cody]

Well still, Sorry for dropping it all on everyone's shoulders, especially a topic not everyone is comfortable with...I guess I just have an issue with grasping the fact that not everyone is like me- gay, and a devout Christian.

[Tiger]

Well still, Sorry for dropping it all on everyone's shoulders, especially a topic not everyone is comfortable with...I guess I just have an issue with grasping the fact that not everyone is like me- gay, and a devout Christian.

Mark has made it clear that he is not a fan of religion in general. I share his sentiments, but I do not wish to discourage people from worshiping freely. I do not understand it at all. I grew up going to church as well, and the fire and brimstone messages turned me off of it. Acceptance of homosexuals by certain denominations is a good thing, but it does not erase the overall sentiment of the religious right and their dominance of Christian teaching in the US and many other parts of the world.

[Mark Arbour]

Well still, Sorry for dropping it all on everyone's shoulders, especially a topic not everyone is comfortable with...I guess I just have an issue with grasping the fact that not everyone is like me- gay, and a devout Christian.

 

Don't apologize unless you need to. You don't need to.

 

If there's an uncomfortable topic on the forum, most people just won't read that thread.

[Daisy]

Well still, Sorry for dropping it all on everyone's shoulders, especially a topic not everyone is comfortable with...I guess I just have an issue with grasping the fact that not everyone is like me- gay, and a devout Christian.

 

I'm a christian . well, sorta. Don't even ask me which 'denomination' I belong to, at the moment none.

Read this.

http://metroweekly.com/feature/?ak=4765

 

Geography plays a big thing in this as well. And just chance as to what we encounter.

 

well done for holding your head high .

[Nephylim]

Well still, Sorry for dropping it all on everyone's shoulders, especially a topic not everyone is comfortable with...I guess I just have an issue with grasping the fact that not everyone is like me- gay, and a devout Christian.

 

 

Don't apologize unless you need to. You don't need to.

 

If there's an uncomfortable topic on the forum, most people just won't read that thread.

 

 

Yep

[Mark M]

yeah im way up in canada with a freedom to worship whatever and whoever i want haha, i could be a ice cream worshiper....which now i think i might have some.

 

The thing in canada is that we have gay marrage legal, everywhere. and sadly ministers can refuse to do a ceramonial gay marrage. Because its against there religion. lol.

 

Anyway i think this is a good topic it allows mark to maybe delve into relgion in his stories if he so chooses or stay away from them because of opinions of the readers of his stories. So far Religion has not plaied the Biggest role in Any of the stories...

[Mark Arbour]

Here's a vignette of my frustration with religion/Christianity.

 

On the one hand, we have a very sweet and caring guy like Cody, giving us a truly Christian perspective on Christianity.

 

Then on the other hand, we have Jerry Falwell telling the world that Haitians brought this recent earthquake upon themselves for making a previous pact with Satan. (FYI..this alleged pact was for help in throwing out the French, some 200 years ago).

 

[Conner]

Who could blame anyone for trying to get rid of the French? The English have been trying to do it for years.

[Mark Arbour]

Who could blame anyone for trying to get rid of the French? The English have been trying to do it for years.

 

Jay Leno joked about that last night: "Since when do you need a pact with the devil to beat the French?"

[rjo]

Sorry to correct you Mark but it was Pat Robertson not Jerry Falwell who I believe is dead. Neither one of them are my favorate people.

[JamesSavik]

Falwell and Robinson both told people that New Orleans was devastated by Katrina because it was tolerant of homosexuals.

 

Neither one of them made any friends down here.

[methodwriter85]

Jerry Falwell died last year, Mark.