[Adam Phillips] Crosscurrents

[methodwriter85]

Yeah. I guess that makes sense. Track and cross-country was filled with people who were in an off-season. It seemed like the biggest committment for anybody was swimming, which basicaly ran all year. Soccer was a spring sport here, I think. Or it might have been boy's soccer was fall, girl's soccer was winter/spring. As for the other stuff...I guess you're right. In high school my friend Courtney made fun of the Andy types- the honors kids who were nice but mainly because they wanted to be seen as nice. I think me and my group prolly would have seen Andy as kinda fake.

[nightsky]

I've tried to suggest in the narrative that there's a certain amount of guile to Andy's public persona, and that although he's a good kid, he's not necessarily a complete "nice guy." He's playing people, and he's doing it to gain what advantage he can. It softens the realization of such to know that he's not trying to hurt anyone by playing them, but it's a misreading to see Andy as some total nice guy, and I believe I've "written" him with some shadowy undertones, and not as totally made up of sunlight and good will.

 

 

 

In this neck of the woods, when I was in high school, club soccer games got played on Saturday; high school football got played on Friday. And there were a lot of guys who played football and club soccer. High school soccer season happened in the winter, so there was no conflict there either.

 

 

I've not ever seen a halo glowing around Andy's pate, this read through or my first read through. So far, he comes across as a bit (ahem) of a hot head, with little patience, but has the capacity for great empathy and caring. He can be a bit of a schemer/planner when he's motivated though...

 

I don't know how the kids in TX do the two sports thing. My HS had either practice or games for our sports every day, for about 2 hours, after school. No way did I have energy for another!

 

 

[PrivateTim]

I've not ever seen a halo glowing around Andy's pate, this read through or my first read through. So far, he comes across as a bit (ahem) of a hot head, with little patience, but has the capacity for great empathy and caring. He can be a bit of a schemer/planner when he's motivated though...

 

I don't know how the kids in TX do the two sports thing. My HS had either practice or games for our sports every day, for about 2 hours, after school. No way did I have energy for another!

I was a three sports guy in HS, swim, polo and wrestling and club wrestling and swimming overlapped, I had two hours of swimming before school, two to three hours of swimming after school and then club wrestling twice a week at night with weekend tourneys. I think that was exactly how my parents liked it since I never had an opportunity to get in trouble.....

[nightsky]

I was a three sports guy in HS, swim, polo and wrestling and club wrestling and swimming overlapped, I had two hours of swimming before school, two to three hours of swimming after school and then club wrestling twice a week at night with weekend tourneys. I think that was exactly how my parents liked it since I never had an opportunity to get in trouble.....

 

I wasn't clear, but I meant two sports in one season (which is what you're writing about too...). I went to a boarding school, and weekends were for family. Lacrosse was also a lot less popular back in the day, and we had to travel far and wide for our games and tournaments.

 

I think the best part of all that activity as a kid (and why it's a shame so many schools can no longer afford to have sports programs) is that it promotes physical activity and fitness. My only... issue? is that playing a team sport is difficult to continue as an adult. (it's really hard to have a pickup game of lacrosse).

[Adam Phillips]

I've just added Chapter 9 of Crosscurrents.

 

This chapter takes Andy a number of places, some light-hearted, some serious. There's a little touch of grey making itself seen here and there, but Andy's pushing it out of his view whenever it shows up.

[methodwriter85]

Sharpe. I don't know- Andy no longer having a P name to match with Price somehow feels wrong. I l really liked the P & P element. Kinda emphasized how the two are pretty much like brothers. Couldn't he have been named Patterson or something?

 

The popularity stuff was interesting to read. My high school never really had it in the way that it seems like their high school does. I think it might have been just that we were a different flavor of kids- urban, performing arts kids. There were bullies and snobs, but pretty much everyone could do their own thing. I can't really think of any one cliche that totally dominated the school. If anyone had, they would have been laughed at. Everyone had their own different scene/major to be into- the comm kids, the vocal majors, the dancers, the artists, the actors, the band geeks, etc etc. And a jock/cheerleader culture didn't really exist at my school, because we didn't actually have sports. I mean, some kids played sports at the school next door, but yeah, Homecoming was for a Battle of the Classes, not really for sports. But for a school like theirs, I'm glad that Matt wants to lead by example, though. He really is quite the amazing, compassionate young man.

 

Having been baby of my family, I feel Danny's pain, really. LOL. God, I remember being 10 years old and wanting to hang out around my older sisters' cool older friends, and being annoying about it. Although being that I had sisters instead of older brothers, I didn't have to deal with the physical torture that Andy seems to inflict on Danny.

 

Finally, I love how Andy's not-so-platonic love for Matt is creeping up on him. The Michelangelo stuff was great. It's been awhile since I felt that about anybody- thanks for bringing that feeling back, Adam.

 

[nightsky]

Sharpe. I don't know- Andy no longer having a P name to match with Price somehow feels wrong. I l really liked the P & P element. Kinda emphasized how the two are pretty much like brothers. Couldn't he have been named Patterson or something?

 

I don't mind the difference. The first names go so well together... rolls off the tongue. MattnAndy.

 

 

Having been baby of my family, I feel Danny's pain, really. LOL. God, I remember being 10 years old and wanting to hang out around my older sisters' cool older friends, and being annoying about it. Although being that I had sisters instead of older brothers, I didn't have to deal with the physical torture that Andy seems to inflict on Danny.

 

 

I'm the youngest too. I have an older brother, and I was physically tortured/loved. We fought like cats and dogs. It was even worse when he figured out that tickling me was better than hitting me, b/c my parents wouldn't be alarmed if they heard me laughing like a mad hatter. And yet, I hated when he would ride off on the bike, knowing I couldn't follow (obviously before I learned how to ride a bike).

 

Back to CC...

 

What I particularly enjoyed in the chapter was the scene at lunch. Matt and Andy's ability to talk openly with each other about their relationship, about how they make each other better people, is really special, IMHO. Even though Matt sees himself as not so smart, it is obvious that he is not lacking in insight, empathy, and compassion, which I find uncommon in adolescents. I also enjoyed Andy's... manipulation(?) of his parents while plotting and scheming for his party.

[PrivateTim]

The start of my freshman year was an interesting one for me. I was 14 years old and had lived 4 states and 3 countries by then. We had been in this city for just about two years now so we hadn't moved, but my three best friends from my neighborhood did move that summer. Two moved far away, one didn't but he was far enough and going to a different high school. I was always jealous of the Matt and Andy's who had been friends since second or third grade.

 

I would call my story, It Started With Brian because it really did start with Brian, but since that one has been taken I'll have to figure out another title and I probably shouldn't use Brian's name, but I'll never forget meeting him at that first morning practice two weeks before school started. I don't think I ever fell so instantly in love with anyone ever, not before, not since. I think that is one reason I can relate to Andy, I get the unrequited love and the unrequited love that dare not speak it's name.

[Adam Phillips]

Sharpe. I don't know- Andy no longer having a P name to match with Price somehow feels wrong. I l really liked the P & P element. Kinda emphasized how the two are pretty much like brothers. Couldn't he have been named Patterson or something?

 

It's just what you're used to. Get over it.

 

But for a school like theirs, I'm glad that Matt wants to lead by example, though. He really is quite the amazing, compassionate young man.

 

Hurting can do interesting things to a person. It can give you depths. Or it can make you decide you can use your hurt as an excuse for not trying. It's all about individual decisions, and maybe says something about a person's character. Yeah, Matt's a good guy. As for cliches, it's an interesting school as I picture it in my head. It has the jock/cheerleader/drill team culture, but it also has first-rate academics, a first-rate music program, and a first-rate drama program. Some day it may actually launch somebody into Hollywood.

 

 

Finally, I love how Andy's not-so-platonic love for Matt is creeping up on him. The Michelangelo stuff was great. It's been awhile since I felt that about anybody- thanks for bringing that feeling back, Adam.

 

Yeah, that whole thing is still under Andy's radar. He's not really sure what's going on with him, and he's in I'll-think-about-that-tomorrow mode.

[Adam Phillips]

I get the unrequited love and the unrequited love that dare not speak its name.

 

Then you probably get it better than Andy's getting it at this particular stage of the story!

[methodwriter85]

It's just what you're used to. Get over it.

 

You kinda remind me of a friend I have who tells me to knock it off with my bullshit. I think I have a better appreciation of that now.

 

As for Andy's school, wow, you've really crafted one interesting ficticious high school. Could have been interesting to go to a school like that, but they don't exist in Delaware because Delaware doesn't have the taxes to support stellar public high schools.

[Mark Arbour]

You kinda remind me of a friend I have who tells me to knock it off with my bullshit. I think I have a better appreciation of that now.

 

As for Andy's school, wow, you've really crafted one interesting ficticious high school. Could have been interesting to go to a school like that, but they don't exist in Delaware because Delaware doesn't have the taxes to support stellar public high schools.

 

You're right. Delaware sucks.

[PrivateTim]

You kinda remind me of a friend I have who tells me to knock it off with my bullshit. I think I have a better appreciation of that now.

 

As for Andy's school, wow, you've really crafted one interesting ficticious high school. Could have been interesting to go to a school like that, but they don't exist in Delaware because Delaware doesn't have the taxes to support stellar public high schools.

I was actually surprised at how high Delaware was ranked in spending on education. What is unknown is what they are spending it on. I would venture to guess that TX with a fast growing population spends more on building new schools and DE being older and losing people spends more on personnel.

 

[Adam Phillips]

Don't even get me started on Texas and education. We spend little and, apparently, want to rewrite history for the whole nation.

 

Be that as it may, there have always been exceptional schools in the suburbs.

[Adam Phillips]

Chapter 10 of Crosscurrents is now up.

 

This time out, Andy's hormones are in action (again)...and we get to see more of the interplay and interaction that characterize his friendship with Matt.

[nightsky]

Chapter 10 of Crosscurrents is now up.

 

This time out, Andy's hormones are in action (again)...and we get to see more of the interplay and interaction that characterize his friendship with Matt.

 

 

 

There's nothing as good as denial denial denial. Besides, I'm sure he's also telling himself that it's not too weird, since his friend Ethan told him it was kind of normal in the last chapter. Plus, obviously girls do it for him in a big way, so..... nothing to see here! Moving on!

 

But I do love how we just get these tiny glimpses of what could be different for him... and how these glimpses are probably about all Andy allows himself to see too.

 

 

 

 

[Adam Phillips]

There's nothing as good as denial denial denial. Besides, I'm sure he's also telling himself that it's not too weird, since his friend Ethan told him it was kind of normal in the last chapter. Plus, obviously girls do it for him in a big way, so..... nothing to see here! Moving on!

 

Yeah, what complicates the picture and keeps me from being able to call it denial is that Andy's genuinely mystified about what's going on with him in that one area. After all, though the culture gives lip service to the idea of "bisexuality," all of us know that at the everyday level we tend to oversimplify relentlessly and paint the sexual world as either "gay" or "straight." Andy's freaked out about his response to guys, and especially to Matt, because he doesn't know what "place" to give it in his self-understanding. It's clear to him that it's females that get his juices flowing primarily...so what the hell is this all about? It confuses and worries him but he doesn't even know what it is or what it means, so mostly he tries to ignore it. And that's easy to do for him, because things work so well for him with the ladies. And they're always on his mind and libido, so this weird incongruent shit becomes relatively easy to push aside.

 

For now.

 

There are a couple of other realities at work, too, I think. Probably in those mid-adolescent years guys' sexuality is pretty volatile, if only because of its intensity.

 

The other thing is that the experience of loving someone is not limited to one gender, I'm convinced. And love can take a person places sexually that his "orientation" might not otherwise take him. I've had many discussions with John, the real-life "Brian" from Sam's story It Started With Brian, about his love for Sam. John is about as straight as a guy could get...except where Sam was concerned.

 

In any case, your comment led me into a consideration, once again, of how casually we apply the labels. In my opinion, the "gay" and "straight" talk is hopelessly reductionistic. I don't know who y'all are reading on the matter of sexual orientation these days, but for me the writings of Michael Storms and Fritz Klein were real eye-openers, and helped me to understand what a complicated and many-faceted phenomenon sexual "orientation" is.

 

But I do love how we just get these tiny glimpses of what could be different for him... and how these glimpses are probably about all Andy allows himself to see too.

 

 

Yes. And keep in mind he's 15. What the hell does a 15-year-old know about such speculations?

 

Thanks for the post. Andy's a head-case. I think I've already established that. It's one of the two things that make him an interesting protagonist for me.

[nightsky]

The other thing is that the experience of loving someone is not limited to one gender, I'm convinced. And love can take a person places sexually that his "orientation" might not otherwise take him. I've had many discussions with John, the real-life "Brian" from Sam's story It Started With Brian, about his love for Sam. John is about as straight as a guy could get...except where Sam was concerned.

 

 

In any case, your comment led me into a consideration, once again, of how casually we apply the labels. In my opinion, the "gay" and "straight" talk is hopelessly reductionistic.

 

 

Um. Maybe this is not quite the place to have this discussion, but if we go with the premise that an intense friendship kind of love can turn into sexual love ("gay for you?"), then what stops other ppl from extrapolating that gay men or women could be "straight for you?" Sounds like that stupid saying that a lot of ppl like to say to lesbians ("you just haven't had sex with the right man yet"). I dunno.

 

I'm not big on labels. They're convenient and easy. But unless you're going to ask me for all my labels, I don't want you to only use one or two so you can pigeonhole me. Forced to label my own sexual orientation, I'd say heterosexual (I don't like the term straight. It implies that the other orientations are... crooked/bent/broken/wrong). But I can appreciate the sensuality and sexiness of a woman. Maybe b/c girls sit and look all those magazines (Cosmo, Seventeen, etc) to find out what's "sexy."

 

 

I don't know who y'all are reading on the matter of sexual orientation these days, but for me the writings of Michael Storms and Fritz Klein were real eye-openers, and helped me to understand what a complicated and many-faceted phenomenon sexual "orientation" is.

 

Who do you mean by "y'all"?" My academic field? Or a more general sense of "you all" being you all out there on the internet?

I'm adding these two authors to the pile... along with the Harbor Islands Map story one you told me about.... It wasn't available on the kindle, last I looked.

 

Andy's a head-case.

 

maybe you were asking about my academic field. Kind of obvious why these coming of age/identity development type of stories appeal to me.

 

Andy is the kid that I was either slapping upside the head b/c he's so mischievous (you know. the one with that little glint in his eye that he's always up to something or another. and none of it good) OR the boy I was telling all my girls to stay away from. Can't trust those 15 yo boys... they're just a bunch of walking hormones.

 

 

 

 

 

[Adam Phillips]

 

I'm adding these two authors to the pile...

 

Here's a very terse summary of their work (too terse in the case of Storms, I think...there's much more to be said, but it's a starter at least)

 

http://www.endhomophobia.org/BeyondGay.htm

[Toast]

Enjoyed eight, nine and ten. Sam

[PrivateTim]

Um. Maybe this is not quite the place to have this discussion, but if we go with the premise that an intense friendship kind of love can turn into sexual love ("gay for you?"), then what stops other ppl from extrapolating that gay men or women could be "straight for you?" Sounds like that stupid saying that a lot of ppl like to say to lesbians ("you just haven't had sex with the right man yet"). I dunno.

 

I'm not big on labels. They're convenient and easy. But unless you're going to ask me for all my labels, I don't want you to only use one or two so you can pigeonhole me. Forced to label my own sexual orientation, I'd say heterosexual (I don't like the term straight. It implies that the other orientations are... crooked/bent/broken/wrong). But I can appreciate the sensuality and sexiness of a woman. Maybe b/c girls sit and look all those magazines (Cosmo, Seventeen, etc) to find out what's "sexy."

 

Who do you mean by "y'all"?" My academic field? Or a more general sense of "you all" being you all out there on the internet?

I'm adding these two authors to the pile... along with the Harbor Islands Map story one you told me about.... It wasn't available on the kindle, last I looked.

 

maybe you were asking about my academic field. Kind of obvious why these coming of age/identity development type of stories appeal to me.

 

Andy is the kid that I was either slapping upside the head b/c he's so mischievous (you know. the one with that little glint in his eye that he's always up to something or another. and none of it good) OR the boy I was telling all my girls to stay away from. Can't trust those 15 yo boys... they're just a bunch of walking hormones.

On Saturday I went for a run with a running group I sometimes hang with. I ran with a man who has been married 46 years (yes to a woman), has three children and five grandchildren and he is gay.

 

When he was a young naval officer, being gay wasn't an option, so he did the straight thing. I am sure he loves his wife, I didn't ask, but I assume 46 years going on 47, you do and he spoke fondly of her on the run, but as he also said "she does her thing and I do mine". He self identifies as gay, not bi. A lot of gay men, especially younger ones don't get how the man can call himself gay, he has had sex with a woman. A lot might even call his names because he "sold out" and played the straight role, but a 22 year old can hardly grasp what the world was like for gay men in 1964, especially in the navy in 1964.

 

A Map of the Harbor Islands in in Google Books.

[nightsky]

On Saturday I went for a run with a running group I sometimes hang with. I ran with a man who has been married 46 years (yes to a woman), has three children and five grandchildren and he is gay.

 

When he was a young naval officer, being gay wasn't an option, so he did the straight thing. I am sure he loves his wife, I didn't ask, but I assume 46 years going on 47, you do and he spoke fondly of her on the run, but as he also said "she does her thing and I do mine". He self identifies as gay, not bi. A lot of gay men, especially younger ones don't get how the man can call himself gay, he has had sex with a woman. A lot might even call his names because he "sold out" and played the straight role, but a 22 year old can hardly grasp what the world was like for gay men in 1964, especially in the navy in 1964.

 

A Map of the Harbor Islands in in Google Books.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the Harbor Islands book. I try to limit (very unsuccessfully, I might add) the amt of time I spend reading on the computer. The backlit thing is killing my eyes!

 

Anyway... I wonder if your gay friend might be stuck with a label that doesn't quite fit him. He identifies as gay, but he's been in a loving relationship with a woman for over 40 years. If I got the chance to talk to him, I'd ask him if he was happy... if he felt fulfilled... and if he could change something in his life, what would it be? How we see ourselves and how other perceive us is a fascinating topic for me.

 

 

 

[Adam Phillips]

 

I wonder if your gay friend might be stuck with a label that doesn't quite fit him. He identifies as gay, but he's been in a loving relationship with a woman for over 40 years. If I got the chance to talk to him, I'd ask him if he was happy... if he felt fulfilled... and if he could change something in his life, what would it be? How we see ourselves and how other perceive us is a fascinating topic for me.

 

 

 

 

Another example illustrating why I hate labels. I'm not saying they don't have their uses. But on so many aspects of sexuality, it seems to hinder rather than facilitate understanding.

 

I'm assuming that the guy thinks of himself as gay because he is more strongly attracted to men than women. It may be the case that women in general don't do it for him physically, except for his wife. Somewhat analogous to "Brian" in It Started With Brian. But as Fritz Klein suggests, "sexual orientation" involves so much more than what makes our dicks involuntarily hard. It's also about sexual behavior, about sexual fantasies, about emotional preference, social preference, lifestyle preference, and self-identification. Taking all these dimensions into consideration, the guy may indeed be gay...or he may not be.

 

Personally, I tend to put a lot of weight on how a person identifies himself/herself. The individual has access to his/her own sexuality in ways that an observer doesn't. Sure, there's such a thing as being in denial, but in general, I tend to let a person choose his/her label and pretty much accept it at face value rather than telling him/ her that he/she is self-mislabeling.

 

--Adam

[nightsky]

Personally, I tend to put a lot of weight on how a person identifies himself/herself. The individual has access to his/her own sexuality in ways that an observer doesn't. Sure, there's such a thing as being in denial, but in general, I tend to let a person choose his/her label and pretty much accept it at face value rather than telling him/ her that he/she is self-mislabeling.

 

--Adam

 

I rely on self-report quite a bit . If I can't take what people tell me about themselves at face value, I'd not get anywhere at all. With friends and clients with whom I've built a trusting relationship, I am more likely (in fact, most likely will) challenge their views of themselves when there are inconsistencies or if i'm looking for clarification (or maybe they're looking for clarification for themselves). However much we hate labels, some people find comfort in finding a label for themselves and their feelings because if there's a label for it, it means that they're not the only one.

 

I find myself re-reading and thinking myself quite wishy washy. But that's probably where I am with "labels."

 

 

 

[Adam Phillips]

Chapter 11 of Crosscurrents has been posted.

 

There are a lot of things to sort out when you reflect on how you feel about someone. In the segment of the story presented so far, Andy cherishes his friendship with his best friend Matt, and is happy to love him as a best friend. But in the last few chapters' worth of narrative, it's clear that Andy senses something else in his heart, a response to Matt that seems somehow "too big," somehow "not normal," and he's becoming aware of dimensions of that friendship that he'd just as soon not face. Chapter 11 continues along those lines. An innocent football game becomes a moment of revelation for Andy, throwing the door open to things within him he's not able to acknowledge. His head's still muddled and worried, but his instincts and intuition know something his head doesn't, and respond accordingly, which only adds to his confusion and dismay.