Poor Man's Son

[centexhairysub]

All kidding aside, Cen, this is my take....

 

I have JJ read as this way, going by how I was when I was 14. If JJ likes you, he REALLY likes you. He's absolutely thrilled by your presence, and he'll follow you around like an overeager puppy dog and admire everything about you. But if he decides, for whatever reason, that you're not worth the time of the day, JJ completely ignores you and goes into Ice King mode. He'll bitch about the person he can't stand ad nauseum to whoever is unfortunate enough to be nearby, and it'll take a long time for any person to get off JJ's bad side, if ever. JJ can likely hold a grudge for a long time. There's no middle ground with JJ- he either loves you or he can't stand you. That would explain why his family seems to think he's such a loving and sweet person, but also how he can be capable of freezing out people like Gathan. It's also a better explaination for why JJ is so unpopular at school than just him being short.

 

I can see where you are coming from MW but it just seems to me that JJ is even getting bitchy with family and people he was previously close to, maybe I am not reading this the way Mark is writing it... Of course, I couldn't be reading my own insecurities into this, no not at all... LOL...

 

Of course the other thing could be maybe my first impression of JJ was way off; I viewed him as this bubbly kid with a great personality that never met anyone that he didn't like... He seemed to open in his actions and reactions to those around him, but I guess those with a few rare exceptions were family so maybe you are right. I just found the last few chapters of the last story and the way this one started out seems to be showing a completely different JJ then how I perceived him to be. Maybe this is all in my mind, wouldn't be the first time I went off the deep end on something like this...

 

Thanks MethodWriter, I will consider how you are looking at him. I don't know, maybe it has just been to long since I was that age; plus none of my nieces and nephews would be allowed to behave like that...

[methodwriter85]

You've also got to consider that you're seeing JJ from the perspective of Gathan, who doesn't get along with him. So any of JJ's positive, bubbly qualities just aren't going to be seen by Gathan.

 

He's a brat, but he's also 14. And as someone who knew a lot of performers, I think his personality is pretty spot-on...someone who can be bubbly and friendly yet also snobby and icy.

 

In any event, if every kid was as nice and well-behaved, this would be a boring story.

[B1ue]

Not just Gathan is saying JJ is a diva though. Stef and Brad have both made comments, and Brad saw him as a bit prissy, though he didn't place the judgement on him that Gathan seems to be.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong in your interpretation MW, but it seems to me that JJ is becoming less forgiving, more stuck on himself than he was if still happy-go-lucky.This JJ would never have stayed in the same room as Bitty, for example. And yeah, part of that is because he's older, but part of its because he's just becoming prissy. You might be right that he thinks the world of people he likes, but how much are they going to like him, when he goes on and on about the people he doesn't like, and is not interested in forgiving or moving on from slights real or imagined? Brad and Robbie seem to take it as a given that eventually they will be blacklisted by the boy, maybe not forever, but at least as long as it takes for the other one to piss him off.

 

And, having said all that, Mark more or less said he changed JJ from being a nice kid to a prissy little diva, so we can probably just accept the logic and character change, and let it enhance the story as it unfolds. Not like it's the first time this has happened *cough*Jeff/Lark/Marcel/Nick (who has changed three times, though there have been explanations provided since)/probably Drew*cough*

[methodwriter85]

You're right, although it doesn't feel like that abrupt of a character change. There's still that happy-go-lucky kid somewhere in there, but there's also a young kid in a high-stakes environment who keeps getting told how good he is. It's not surprising it's gone to his head. It's like the kids who went to my performing arts school- they would get really swelled heads if they were getting lead roles in the musicals and like. One guy was on a tv show called Made, and he got a BIG head that lasted for years. I think once his hair started balding at 20 and he was just a regular college junior, though, he became cool again.

 

I'm thinking that comeuppance is due at some point, starting with JJ's realization that he won't make the '02 Olympics. And of course, when winter '06 and winter '10 don't yield gold, either. (Mark is not into re-writing history, which means that JJ will probably go to the Olympics, but he won't actually place.)

 

Some kids go through changes as they grow up. Some don't. I think Will at 18 in 2004 is still pretty much going to be the same kind of person, except maybe having more of an idea of his career. (Here's hoping he becomes a marine biologist. That'd be cool.) JJ at 18 in 2004...we'll see what happens. I'm thinking that like most people, JJ will grow up, look back at himself as a 14-year old, and cringe.

 

For now though, the bitchy diva 'tude is pretty fun and entertaining, at least for me. It makes him a good foil to someone like Will.

[B1ue]

Perhaps. We're just not seeing happy-JJ at the moment, but you have an excellent point about Gathan not being the most unbiased of observers.

 

It probably hasn't helped that Tiffany moved in. Brad, Robbie, Will, Darius, and Matt are pleased for JJ, but none of them truly care much about his ability. It's too far outside what they are and the image they present to the world for them to value. Matt comes closest, I think, but the others would be just as happy and encouraging towards JJ if he was only a little good at the sport. That's to say, while they all to a greater or lesser degree recognize JJ is taking himself seriously, I don't think they are. And if you're correct about the olympics, that attitude is going to burn. On the other hand, it might have served to keep his swelled head in check, but for Tiffany. Tiffany will keep building him up, in the interests of trying to get him to go as far as he's possibly able. This isn't a bad thing, but I doubt it'll make him pleasant to live with.

 

I hope he gets a true friend soon, an equal of sorts, but not a competitor. Matt is good for him, but a bit distant.

 

Oh, wait a minute. I just remembered that JJ stayed in school for a reason. I wonder if that comes to anything.

[methodwriter85]

And if you're correct about the olympics, that attitude is going to burn. On the other hand, it might have served to keep his swelled head in check, but for Tiffany. Tiffany will keep building him up, in the interests of trying to get him to go as far as he's possibly able. This isn't a bad thing, but I doubt it'll make him pleasant to live with.

I did some research on this. At first I thought that JJ could make it to the Salt Lake City Olympics because his December 1985 birthdate would put him at sixteen years old at the start of 2002. 16 is generally the minimum. But then I found out that because JJ only started skating in the fall of 1998, he won't have enough time to go through all the testing required to make the Olympics. The fastest track was Johnny Weir, and he still took about five years.

 

As for '06 and '10- well...Mark doesn't really re-write history. He'll have our CAP people as add-ons, like how Matt met Matthew Shepherd, but he doesn't change actual fate. Evgeni Plushenko wins the gold in '06. Evan Lycasek wins the gold in '10. So JJ's going to leave both Olympics empty-handed. How he handles that could be a very compelling story for Mark to write.

 

The thing with Tiffany van Der Boss...yeah. She's defnitely pumping him full of hopes, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's because of her own lack of success as a figure skater that she's doing this.

 

I hope he gets a true friend soon, an equal of sorts, but not a competitor. Matt is good for him, but a bit distant.

It's not really until a person gets to their mid-20's that age differences start mattering a lot less. They're at two entirely different life stages for JJ to really be an equal to Matt. I kinda want JJ to end up friends with Evan Lycasek, but I'm not sure how good that would be for him. LOL.

[mmike1969]

Well Tiffany is doing what any good coach is doing: giving hope. Can't win with the half attitude of "yeah we might still win"... Just ask the coach of the Denver Broncos when they went against the 49ers that one superbowl...

[mmike1969]

and that is your secret??

 

pfffft..

 

so NOT impressed...

Edited March 17, 2011 by mmike1969

[chedder]

I'm confused about who John and Zach are. I'm drawing a complete blank. Is there a family tree floating around somewhere (as complex as that would be)?

[rjo]

Zack is Clara and Wally Hayes youngest son. Wally is Robbie's cousin. John is Clair and Jack's son, Will's cousin. Gathan is Fred Hayes son. Fred is Robbie's cousin. Robbie is Brad's partner and Will's second dad. Clair is Brad's sister. It is hard fellow the CAP world sometimes with out reading the whole saga from the beginning.

 

Just a thought on the second chapter of Poor Man's Son. It blew me away even if I thought John and Will could have have a relationship. I think at this age maybe pact or understanding would be a better word for it. I can see why Gathan decided to go to go Stanford. This whole thing is a mess. Only one person can straighten it out so to speak is Stef . He can understand them better than anyone else. Hopefully, they will go to him. One other thing, I think Steven ( Stefan's father ) would be amused that his great grandson and Aaron's great great nephew (Gathan ) returned to his favorite place. It proves that things don't really change that much. The best thing about the chapter was you got to know Will and Gathan better, understand them a little more. I think they will be good for each other. It will be interesting to see what happens next.

[mmike1969]

zack is brother to zeke which are the sons of unnamed 'white trash' brother of Willy.

Edited March 17, 2011 by mmike1969

[methodwriter85]

Man. And I thought Drew was too old for Will. Sheesh. I guess it's still barely acceptable because Gathan is still under 18 and hasn't started college just yet, but...eh. I do know if Gathan had been part of my social group and everyone found out he was messing around with 8th graders/9th graders, everyone would have crucified him for that and made lots of "To Catch A Predator" jokes.

 

I was really uncomfortable with this chapter, but then I got over it. I don't think Mark's setting up a relationship, per se, but a really tight friendship.

 

Anyway, since Mark seems really committed to having John Hobart be 12 years old, I went into the CAP timeline and revised his birthdate from March 24th to November 1, 1987. I picked that because we don't seem to hit November 1st in the stories too often, and if we have we can pretend that John's just been celebrating his birthdays off-book. John Hobart is pretty much the only one of JP's grandkids who don't have their birthday set in stone- JJ, Marie, Will, and Courtney were all born in the storyline. John's the only who's birth wasn't part of the story. All we really knew is that he's about a year or two younger than Marie. The revised birthdate allows John to be a year younger than Will, and at the same time it keeps him in the class of 2005 because the California kindergarten cut-off date is December 3rd. (JJ missed the cut-off date by four days, which is why he's in the same class with Marie and Will instead of in '03 with Zach.)

 

It's kinda funny. When I was in 7th/8th grade, I knew kids were having sex and it didn't bother me. Now that I'm 25, 8th graders look like babies to me, and it's really uncomfortable to think they're having sex and the like.

Edited March 17, 2011 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

BTW: is the Caleb in the story the half-brother of Matt or is this another Caleb?

[rjo]

In chapter 55 of Millennium, Gathan tells the guys that Wally and Clara take care of six kids. Zeke 16, Zack 14 which are their sons, him and Ella which are Fred's kids and Brent and Trent which are other brothers kids.

[mmike1969]

looked over my notes again and rjo is correct too many characters to keep track of.

[methodwriter85]

Because I'm incredibly OCD about keeping track of ages, here are the birthdates for the current young characters in the CAPverse:

 

April 24, 1980: Matt Carrswold is born.

 

January 19, 1982: Darius Schluter is born.

 

July 25, 1982: Gathan Hayes is born.

 

August 17, 1983: Ella Hayes is born.

 

May 30, 1985: Zach Hayes is born.

 

December 7, 1985: Jeremy Schluter, aka J.J., is born.

 

April 18, 1986: Marie Hobart, daughter of Jack and Clare Hobart, is born.

 

September 14, 1986: Will Schluter, son of Brad and Jeanine, is born.

 

November 1, 1987: John Hobart, son of Jack and Clare Hobart, is born.

 

September 4, 1995: Courtney Clerrault is born.

 

***

 

I went to the liberty of coming up with birthdays for the Hayes(and faux-Hayes) clan. I didn't bother with Brent or Trent, though, because they aren't going to be important, I'm guessing.

 

This works out to Darius and Gathan being the class of 2000, Ella being the class of 2001, JJ, Marie and Will being the class of 2004, John being the class of 2005, and Courtney graduating in 2013 while being currently a sophomore in 2011.

[B1ue]

Well Tiffany is doing what any good coach is doing: giving hope. Can't win with the half attitude of "yeah we might still win"... Just ask the coach of the Denver Broncos when they went against the 49ers that one superbowl...

 

No, I agree that Tiffany is doing her job and doing right by JJ in that role. However, she's now living with him and dating his mom. That's going to create a feedback squeal where his ego is concerned.

 

the California kindergarten cut-off date is December 3rd. (JJ missed the cut-off date by four days, which is why he's in the same class with Marie and Will instead of in '03 with Zach.)

 

Minor point, but December 2nd, unless you mean that December 3rd starts the new class. But that wouldn't really make it a cut-off date, since the cut was made to exclude that date.

 

BTW: is the Caleb in the story the half-brother of Matt or is this another Caleb?

 

There was a Caleb in this chapter? *checks* There was! Hadn't registered. Possible, but I don't think so. I'd have to check again, but I think Caleb is a bit younger than Gathan, closer to Zach or even John in age. Besides, I think Caleb's mom would lose a gasket or seven at the thought of her son hanging out with a Hayes boy, and that's not really somehitng you can hide in a small town.

 

Seriously, you can't. My parent's busted my sister and I when they weren't even in the same city as us, the gossip network was so efficient (someone that drove passed our house -> someone else -> who called my aunt -> who called my mom, who demanded to know why there were people at our house when they weren't there. Entire thing took maybe half an hour, because they'd just gotten there!)

[methodwriter85]

[Minor point, but December 2nd, unless you mean that December 3rd starts the new class. But that wouldn't really make it a cut-off date, since the cut was made to exclude that date.

 

Eh. It's whatever. See, in Delaware, the cut-off date is August 30th or something like that, so that would have put Will in with the class of 2005. To keep JJ in the same class with Will, I was going to try and see if we could have had him held back like I was. But then I checked, and it worked out that in California, Will would have made the class of 2004.

 

So class of 2004 it is. I kinda wish they could've been in my class, but 2003-2004 is jampacked with music I'm going to love using. God, I can't wait to get to the Killers and Mr. Brightside. *dreamy face* I kinda wish I could have played "Hollaback Girl" at their prom though, but I can't. Oh, well. In any event, I still have John reppin' the class of '05.

 

I'm pretty sure that Caleb is sixteen, maybe seventeen by now. I would have thought there would have been a bigger age difference, but I guess Matt's bio mother only took another three years to decide she was ready to be a mom.

 

“Hello Matt,” the older woman said in a somewhat friendly tone. “You know Charlie. This is my son, Caleb, and my daughter, Katrina.” The boy looked like he was 16 or 17, and the girl looked a little younger. They seemed like typical country people, nice, but not really attractive. Still, there was something familiar about them.

Caleb's gotta be about seventeen, eighteen right now. He might be out on his own at this point, which would explain how he could hang with Hayes kids and not have it be a big deal.

 

I remember thinking that Mark should have made Caleb a little younger, but it's whatever.

Edited March 17, 2011 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

 

Okay, I read chapter 2 last night and wanted to sleep on it before I decided to write anything. I still am not fully sure how I feel about this chapter, had to take a shower after reading it...

 

I was pretty sure the deal with Will and John was something like this and I hope that they get over it because the idea of Brad's son and Jack's son being together is just so damn hot....... When you are that age your emotions change every few minutes but Will seems like the kind of guy that once he get's pissed off at you, stays pissed off unless you can make a really compelling case why he shouldn't...

 

Zach needs to be able to talk to someone about what happened, Gathan's attack on him maybe warping his idea of what sex is suppose to be, plus I want him to stay away from John and Will and let them work it out...

 

Okay, my real issue with this chapter and what no one else seems to be saying is; Gathan is a rapist... I don't care how you look at it, he was told no by two people and f@%$^d them anyway, that is rape.... I don't care if it is because of anger issues, and with his parentage and early life I can understand why he would have them. Brad just killed a guy for doing much less to his kids than Gathan has done to two others...

 

I am not saying that Will and Gathan can't eventually be friends, they sort of fit together in a weird way but until Gathan gets a handle on his issues I can't see Will being truly safe around him. It is obvious that Gathan finds Will attractive but I just don't know..... " Primal Scream " inserted here...

 

Unlike MethodWriter, I don't really have as much of an issue with the age gap between Gathan and Will, even if Gathan was 18 and Will 14. I guess part of this is because I was 14 when I had my first real relationship and he was 19 but I can understand why that might bother some. Will is extremely mature for his age both physically and emotinally but even having said that, a 14 year old doesn't necessary have the life experience to know how to deal with everything...

 

I can sort of go either way on Gathan and Will's friendship, but I still want Will and John to make up. I am just having a real issue with the fact that no one seems to mind that Gathan is a rapist... I understand that he didn't set out to do that to either of this partners and he even understands what he did was wrong and that he needs to either get help or stay out of that postiion but still....

 

I am going to reserve judgement on how I end up feeling about this storyline for the next few chapters but I really think there has to be some kind of consequence for Gathan's behaviour.

[Mark Arbour]

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

 

Okay, I read chapter 2 last night and wanted to sleep on it before I decided to write anything. I still am not fully sure how I feel about this chapter, had to take a shower after reading it...

 

I was pretty sure the deal with Will and John was something like this and I hope that they get over it because the idea of Brad's son and Jack's son being together is just so damn hot....... When you are that age your emotions change every few minutes but Will seems like the kind of guy that once he get's pissed off at you, stays pissed off unless you can make a really compelling case why he shouldn't...

 

Zach needs to be able to talk to someone about what happened, Gathan's attack on him maybe warping his idea of what sex is suppose to be, plus I want him to stay away from John and Will and let them work it out...

 

Okay, my real issue with this chapter and what no one else seems to be saying is; Gathan is a rapist... I don't care how you look at it, he was told no by two people and f@%$^d them anyway, that is rape.... I don't care if it is because of anger issues, and with his parentage and early life I can understand why he would have them. Brad just killed a guy for doing much less to his kids than Gathan has done to two others...

 

I am not saying that Will and Gathan can't eventually be friends, they sort of fit together in a weird way but until Gathan gets a handle on his issues I can't see Will being truly safe around him. It is obvious that Gathan finds Will attractive but I just don't know..... " Primal Scream " inserted here...

 

Unlike MethodWriter, I don't really have as much of an issue with the age gap between Gathan and Will, even if Gathan was 18 and Will 14. I guess part of this is because I was 14 when I had my first real relationship and he was 19 but I can understand why that might bother some. Will is extremely mature for his age both physically and emotinally but even having said that, a 14 year old doesn't necessary have the life experience to know how to deal with everything...

 

I can sort of go either way on Gathan and Will's friendship, but I still want Will and John to make up. I am just having a real issue with the fact that no one seems to mind that Gathan is a rapist... I understand that he didn't set out to do that to either of this partners and he even understands what he did was wrong and that he needs to either get help or stay out of that postiion but still....

 

I am going to reserve judgement on how I end up feeling about this storyline for the next few chapters but I really think there has to be some kind of consequence for Gathan's behaviour.

 

I get the feeling that Gathan knows that, and he feels a lot of anguish about it. We're in the mind of a pretty f**ked-up Hayes boy. I'm not trying to defend what he did, but I also think that he must have grown quite a bit since then, in that he's figured out that he has a problem and he's trying to deal with it.

[Ivy]

Oh jeez, this is reminding me that those years between 13-19 were some of the best and absolute worst moments of my life. Is anything ever as dramatic as it is to a teen?? Every new experience is like a life changing moment. Every day you're trying to figure out who the hell you are, (and who the hell everyone else is!)

 

There is just no middle ground and everything is black or white, and what you think was black, turns out to be white or pink or yellow or blue. If you ask people about their teen years most will either answer either "awesome" or "sucked", rarely do you get "all right". Personally I think every 13 year old should be issued a therapist till they graduate highschool.

 

I kind of feel like we just transferred over from HBO/Showtime to Disney Channel/Nickelodean.

 

So we figured out what pissed Will off, learned more about Gathan, and found out the best weed is grown at Escorial (Oh wait we already knew that one).

I thought it significant that when Will was yelling at the cops, and Gathan put his hand on Will's shoulder, there was an exchange of energy similar to how Brad describes his hugs with JP. At least that's how I read it.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Ivy

[mmike1969]

I get the feeling that Gathan knows that, and he feels a lot of anguish about it. We're in the mind of a pretty f**ked-up Hayes boy. I'm not trying to defend what he did, but I also think that he must have grown quite a bit since then, in that he's figured out that he has a problem and he's trying to deal with it.

 

A messed up Hayes? NO! It can't be!

[methodwriter85]

What was so refreshing about Matt was that he was a Hayes boy who was actually normal.

 

Of course, he wasn't actually brought up as a Hayes, so that says something.

[Ivy]

Centex, responding to your comment, I think that if we had seen the rapes happen in the moment, there would be a lot more outrage visible in the comments. Because they happened off screen so to speak, as well as in the past, while it doesn't diminish the act, it diminishes the impact somewhat. I definately had an "oh, my" moment, but as I read on, I was more into his behavior now. The fact that you have a horny 17 year old who says he doesn't "do that' meaning "I just don't have sex anymore", I see as him having real deep issues. He's like a lot of kids that have a problem and instead of getting help, he hides it, ignores it, assumes it will go away.

 

I feel it's important to remember that it was insinuated that both he and Ella were molested/abused as kids by their so-called father.

 

I think Mark has jumped right into the mind of a kid with issues and portrayed the real problem kids today have with getting the help they need with issues they are facing. They are more apt to talk to each other, if they talk to anyone, than get help from an adult, that might actually be able to point them in the right direction for the help they need. Many times adults are clueless to what's going on in the heads of kids. Gathan's adoptive family did their best, but did they see and act on the anger issues or try to uncover the real problem? Hopefully at some point Gathan will connect with one of the West Coast adults and get the anger management help he needs. I think we're going to see some amazing things happen in this story and some of them might not be real pretty. I have a feeling Gathan's self control will fail fantastically at some point as well, even more than a fist fight at a public gathering.

 

As with most of the characters we have grown to love, or love to hate, I think Gathan will be someone we will love to analyze over the course of this story. I can't wait till he gets to California and see how his story plays out.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Ivy

[methodwriter85]

It would be interesting if Gathan wound up on medication. I don't Mark's explored yet the way in which so many people of the Gen Y generation are prescribed pills such as Adderall, Lexapro, Prozac, etc etc etc.