rjo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 What does Uncle Roscoe have to do with the story? It seems at first just a detail but after reading Mark's stories for as long as I have it is much more. I am wondering if Paternity is much more than fathering a child. The physical act is simple enough, the real work starts later. Rising the child. Mentoring him or her. Loving them and being there for them. If that is the point of this story, it is playing out on so many levels. If that is true, Uncle Roscoe did have a child, Wade. In some ways this is the point of this whole saga. From beginning to the present, a nonconvental family, not joined as much by blood as by love. If that's not a lession for us all, I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 If that is the point of this story, it is playing out on so many levels. If that is true, Uncle Roscoe did have a child, Wade. In some ways this is the point of this whole saga. From beginning to the present, a nonconvental family, not joined as much by blood as by love. If that's not a lession for us all, I don't know what is. It's interesting seeing this play out. I had the thought in my head that in some ways, in recent years, Tiffany has been more of a father to JJ than Brad and Robbie have been. Which is kind of different- she's been more of a mentor to JJ than he's gotten from anyone else, and without her and Jeanine, he's lost. JJ has dads, but he doesn't really have a strong male role model that he emulates, except for maybe Matt. Does he need one, or will he be fine without that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Another nonconventual parent. Maybe that why Jj so attached himself to Matt in Bloodlines. Parental roles come in all kinds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centexhairysub Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I have to wonder if we aren't all forgetting that this story is only presenting one frame or point of view at a time. We don't know what all Brad and Robbie do with JJ that isn't being mentioned because it isn't involving the current storyline. And yes, I do know this is only a story, but because of how well written it is; it pulls you in and makes you forget that this isn't real life you are having a small glimpse of. I don't doubt that Will is Brad's favorite, for a variety of reason, or that Darius is the one Robbie has bonded with the most but I also don't doubt that Brad and Robbie love JJ. I do think as we have seen that both of them may have to be reminded that with Jeanine out of commission that they need to pick up some slack, Will is doing a good job of reminding them as well as picking up some of the slack himself. All of this being said, the constant harping that somehow they are these horrible neglectful parents just does not seem to ring true. We need to remember that we are all seeing but one or two sides of the story right now while with this group there is many sides that while unviewed are still going on. I am sorry, I don't remember who but someone mentioned recently that Will was acting like or reminded them of Tonto, and I found this paticularly accurate. Like Tonto, Will can be prickly and bitchy, but also no one is more protective or will fight harder for their family or loved ones than Will, also a true trait direct from Tonto. I really miss Tonto... Can the series have a ghost??? Edited February 20, 2012 by centexhairysub 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) It's not so much they're horribly neglectful parents; just that they figured JJ was in good hands with Jeanine and they didn't see any reason to really step in as parents because JJ seemed fine. It worked fine, but I'm not seeing some big tight bond between JJ and his fathers, which isn't tragic but actually pretty realistic. I kind of like the fact that if/when we get around to JJ's view, Mark would have do the types of scenes that he wrote with Brad/JP and Brad/Will with JJ/Tiffany, JJ/Tiffany, maybe JJ and Matt, because I don't think JJ views Brad or Robbie as mentors that he goes to for advice like he would with the aforementioned three. It's actually pretty realistic- some parents just don't really relate to all of their kids. Doesn't mean they don't love them, but they just don't have that kind of bond you see with Darius/Brad or Will/Brad. Edited February 21, 2012 by methodwriter85 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I strongly believe that both Robbie and Brad love JJ a lot. Brad knows what a bad parent is, his own birth mother. He also know what a safe loving home life can do for a child. Brad is mindful of this because of his brother Billy. In some sence Billy is JP's Jeff. What if he would have done something better, would Billy still be alive? What is a easy trap to fall into. The comment was made that Will was some what like Tonto. I couldn't agree more. She was awesome person, who was not afraid to stand up for what her believed in even when it was unpopular. She defended JP against her own brother, she did her best to protect Brad against his mother. I can see a little bit of her in both Brad and Will. Maybe more so in Will. Her influence goes way beyond her life. I think of the time JP pointed out her portait in the Great Hall to Wade or the time her brought Robbie down to reunite with Brad. Countless times in so many ways she was there for her family, her friends and her home town. A grandmother or great grandmother to be proud of. I miss her too. Its to bad, Mark, we could not have said goodbye to her like we did for Marie. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) I strongly believe that both Robbie and Brad love JJ a lot. Brad knows what a bad parent is, his own birth mother. He also know what a safe loving home life can do for a child. Brad is mindful of this because of his brother Billy. In some sence Billy is JP's Jeff. What if he would have done something better, would Billy still be alive? What is a easy trap to fall into. I've never said that Brad and Robbie don't love JJ. I've just said they're not close to him like they are to Will and Darius, which is true. You can love someone a lot without being close to them. I miss her too. Its to bad, Mark, we could not have said goodbye to her like we did for Marie. I thought Madison should have been given Gale as her middle name, and Will should have flashbacked to when Tonto died. That would have been a nice moment. But Mark didn't use that idea, so... Edited February 22, 2012 by methodwriter85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrivateTim Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I am in RJO's camp, just because we don't see all or much of JJ's interactions with Brad and Robbie doesn't mean they are not close to him. Yes Jeannie was all involved of the skating part of JJ's life, but the skating is recent and Brad and Robbie would have been involved in his life in different ways before that. It just isn't credible that the Brad and Robbie characters that Mark has painted would be neglectful of one of their kids. We've seen how they pull in complete strangers, I can't believe those same people would be "enh" to one of their kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Again, I'm not saying they're neglectful. Just that they played favorites, where each child took especially to one of the parents. Darius even said as much, and that it generally worked fine, UNTIL Jeanine went down for the count. So now you have a situation where JJ isn't that particularly well-bonded to either of the dads like the way Darius and Will are, and I frankly find it pretty refreshing. I like the idea that the kind of father/son scenes you see with Brad/Darius, Brad/Will, Robbie/Will wouldn't feel quite so authentic with JJ, and that those scenes would make more sense with Tiffany, Jeanine, and Matt. I also think, given the events of Millenium, JJ would have responded to the chaos of Brad and Robbie's relationship by focusing himself even more into figure skating. Brad didn't even realize that JJ was serious enough about skating that he was considering dropping out of school, or that he was having a lot of trouble with the Mailbu Middle kids. Neither did Robbie. Then through Poor Man's Son, where JJ watched both Brad and Robbie basically fawn themselves over Gathan Hayes(for good reason, but still)...I don't think he would have felt that inclined to really re-engage himself with either of them. At the same time, Jeanine and Tiffany where starting to have trouble during the pregnancies, so he put on his "happy blinders" and let himself buy into the fantasy that his "moms" and their new babies were going to form a happy family with him. Then Will was off onto his sexual adventures with his cousin and older men, which JJ couldn't relate because he's still physically a little boy. Darius went off to college, and now Will doesn't even live in the same house with them- it's next-door, but I still think it's symbolic that JJ got left alone in the house with the feuding lesbian mothers and babies that take up a whole hell lot of a time. I definitely think somewhere along the way, a disconnect between JJ and his family happened, if you really go back over and think about the story. Although it's not a one-way street, either- JJ is in a sport that kills a lot of time, and he can't do things the way Will and Darius can. He can't smoke pot with Darius and Will, because he's subjected to random drug testing. If the family goes on a vacation, he'd only be able to go for a few days before having to go back to the rink. If there's some spontaneous family event being planned, JJ would likely have to turn it down. There isn't that much opportunity for bonding there, because JJ is sacrificing his childhood for a shot at Olympic Gold. It's actually been a pretty good build-up on Mark's part, showing how and why a kid from a usually tight-knit family could wind up slipping through the cracks the way he did. Edited February 22, 2012 by methodwriter85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1ue Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Another thing to consider is that while we can assume, based on Brad and Robbie's characters that they probably don't leave JJ in a state of benign neglect, we don't actually know that they don't. I can't remmber a time in the last several stories that they've gone out of their way to include JJ. Darius and Will have, at least once each, and based on comments Darius in Millenium made we can assume he talks to JJ, but we haven't seen the level of interaction that Brad has shown with Will or Robbie had with Matt. The closest I can recall at this time was when JJ was considering homeschool, and even that was moderated by Jeanine. You all are correct that that this doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it doesn't mean it did either. Brad and Robbie have both had a rough couple of years, as Jeremy points out, and JJ himself has been increasingly high maintenence and absorbed into skating. It might be out of character for Brad and Robbie, generous souls that they are, to not reach out to JJ, but what if they on some level thought JJ didn't want to be helped and frankly would not react well to their attempts? We should keep open minds, I think. The dinner scene clearly proves that, even if it's out of character, right now they are not involving themselves in JJ's life like they really should be. Perhaps they realied on Jeanine to give them a heads up on important events like the big skating competitions, so they could make time for them, but didn't expect it of themselves to keep track on their own. Will, and Claire, simply pointed out their now invalid assumptions. I am distantly suprised neither has a personal assistant that would have ferretted out that information for them, though. Seems like kind of a duh thing to ask. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddydavek Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Chapter 19 is posted and introduces Trevor, a kissing cousin..... We also learn that Wade's sister is more than just a pain in the ass. An interesting read that I highly recommend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sat8997 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 My first thought was 'Who the hell is Trevor?'. I had to go look at the posted chapter. I've been reading a lot of St. Vincent lately. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Another thing to consider is that while we can assume, based on Brad and Robbie's characters that they probably don't leave JJ in a state of benign neglect, we don't actually know that they don't. I can't remmber a time in the last several stories that they've gone out of their way to include JJ. Darius and Will have, at least once each, and based on comments Darius in Millenium made we can assume he talks to JJ, but we haven't seen the level of interaction that Brad has shown with Will or Robbie had with Matt. The closest I can recall at this time was when JJ was considering homeschool, and even that was moderated by Jeanine. You all are correct that that this doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it doesn't mean it did either. Brad and Robbie have both had a rough couple of years, as Jeremy points out, and JJ himself has been increasingly high maintenence and absorbed into skating. It might be out of character for Brad and Robbie, generous souls that they are, to not reach out to JJ, but what if they on some level thought JJ didn't want to be helped and frankly would not react well to their attempts? The clue to that would be the part in Millenium, when Brad and Robbie were discussing how the kids should be involved in their wedding. They said that Will would obviously go on Brad's side, Darius would obviously go on Robbie's side, and JJ would go with whoever he wasn't pissed off at the moment. It was a pretty flippant remark, but it showed to me, on some level, that JJ doesn't have a clear, defined paternal bond the way his brothers do. And I think it might be what you're saying- on some level, they felt like JJ didn't want or need their help. And to be honest, I think until Jeanine went around the bend, JJ probably didn't. I think he liked having this thing that no one else in his family could do, instead of always being the brother that can't quite do things as well and as easily as his older brother and younger brother can do. So he built up this world based around figure skating with Jeanine and Tiffany as his two big parental figures, and he was okay with Brad and Robbie not really trying to be part of it, because JJ knew that they'd always have Will and Darius as their respective favorites. In this world, JJ himself was the golden child, and as such it was easier for him to retreat into it, and believe Jeanine's fantasy world until it became impossible to do so. I'm a believer in "show", not "tell" when it comes to stories, and right now I haven't seen any real proof in this story that JJ is close to either Brad or Robbie. It's been shown, since Bloodlines, that JJ is close to Matt, to Jeanine, and to Tiffany, but not to his adoptive fathers. There's certainly love there, but not the kind of father/son bond we've with Brad/JP, Brad/Will, etc etc. And remember the comment Wade made, when he talked about how Brad made the comment to him about the feeling of fatherhood overcoming him? That was for Will's birth. It wasn't for JJ. Maybe he eventually felt that way, but Jeanine was the one who felt that way for JJ going all the way to his birth, while Brad did not. We should keep open minds, I think. The dinner scene clearly proves that, even if it's out of character, right now they are not involving themselves in JJ's life like they really should be. Perhaps they realied on Jeanine to give them a heads up on important events like the big skating competitions, so they could make time for them, but didn't expect it of themselves to keep track on their own. Will, and Claire, simply pointed out their now invalid assumptions. That's the thing though- I really don't think it's out of character. It's something that's been telegraphed for a long time, going back to If It Fits where it was clear that JJ was the stereotypical middle child who couldn't do as much as his brothers could except be really cheerful. He just doesn't really have that much in common with the rest of his family, and as such he's the odd duck that Brad and Robbie can't really relate to. That doesn't mean they don't love him, but father/son bonding hasn't worked as well with JJ as it has for the other brothers. Edited February 22, 2012 by methodwriter85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Arbour Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 My first thought was 'Who the hell is Trevor?'. I had to go look at the posted chapter. I've been reading a lot of St. Vincent lately. My bad. Sharon raises an issue I need to mention to all of you Paternity readers. I've been hit with a bit of the Granger bug, and while my schedule has gotten busier, I've still managed to spend some time writing. Unfortunately, I've been really engrossed in "St. Vincent," such that chapter 19 of Paternity was the last one I have written. Now, I don't expect it to be a long time until I post another chapter, but some patience may be required while I work to finish St. Vincent. Just a head's up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddydavek Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 At least you have an idea where you are going with both sagas. Alas I find myself adrift, and can only wait for the next installments. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I was beginning to wonder how long you could keep this level of output up..... but then you seem a stayer ;-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centexhairysub Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Well, the new chapter of Paternity certainly had a few moments... I just love that Wade and Matt seem so much stronger now than when this story started. Even after everything that happened and what all went on, they worked through it and came out stronger as a couple. I am glad we are getting to see more of Wade's family, Trevor appears to be delightful while Mary Ellen appears to a bitch... They will both add some excitement to the storyline. You have to wonder now if she wasn't the one pulling Carl's strings all along and trying to cause all the problems with Wade and Matt, I said even then that Carl wasn't smart enough to be the one really behind it. I do hope that we get some more time with Sean and Wade together. This seems to be a relationship that might dovetail rather nicely into in Wade and Matt's. There really hasn't been a true polyamorous relationship in the series since back in 1968, although that one didn't turn out very well. Maybe this one would work out better, Wade seems like the kind of guy that could keep more than one man happy and in line. I still think that Tonto should come back as a ghost. It would be great to have her hovering over the dinner table while the whole family was there, I am sure she would be able to communicate in some form or fashion. I can't believe I am going to bring this up, because I have been one of the people arguing that no one in the family needed a direct connection to understand and be hurt by 9/11; but it would be so easy to see JJ and maybe even Jeanine on a plane coming back from some skating competition or meeting in New York on that terrible day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) That wouldn't quite work because they'd probably use the family jet, but I could ask Daisy and see if there were any meets or competitions there. If you want to get Robbie and Brad there, the MTV music Awards were held on September 9th, 2001 in New York City, and I could see Robbie scoring tickets, courtesy of Beyonce. I think Wade having a summer internship in D.C. would make the most sense here. It's the summer before Senior year, and seriously- what ambitious guy would say no to what would be a very plum internship that his daddy would set up? Wade may hate his parents, but he's a pragmatic person. Stanford doesn't start their school year until late in September, so Wade could plausibly still be in D.C. during 9/11. Edited to add: I looked at the info on the 2001-2002 season. Here's what they said: Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, the United States Figure Skating Association cancelled the Junior Grand Prix event to be held in Arizona and did not allow their skaters to compete on the Junior Grand Prix for the rest of the season.[1] There was a Junior Grand Prix event held in Bulgaria from September 13-16, so maybe JJ's in Bulgaria when 9/11 happens? Or he's getting ready to go, and the 9/11 panic about flying prevents him from going? In any event, on a career-level, it sounds like 9/11 is going to screw JJ over, as well as screw up Will's 15th birthday plans. (9/11 hits on Tuesday, Will and Riley's birthdays are on Friday.) Daisy, you wanna weigh in on this? Edited February 23, 2012 by methodwriter85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Arbour Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 You want me to send JJ to Bulgaria? Should I leave him there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) You want me to send JJ to Bulgaria? Should I leave him there? Would Brad and Robbie even notice he was gone? I'm actually thinking that JJ would have decided to stay home instead of going out to Bulgaria, because it was close to the beginning of the school year and he'd want to have everything squared away with his 10th grade teachers before taking week-long absences. Plus, it is supposed to be Will's 15th birthday that week, which hits on a Friday, which(in Will's mind) would equal a really fun birthday weekend. And in any event, JJ probably would have figured it would have been better just to do his Junior Grand Prix event in Arizona because it's a hell of a lot closer than Bulgaria. Edited February 25, 2012 by methodwriter85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrivateTim Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Would Brad and Robbie even notice he was gone? And in any event, JJ probably would have figured it would have been better just to do his Junior Grand Prix event in Arizona because it's a hell of a lot closer than Bulgaria. Yes they would notice he was gone, you are as much a little DQ as he is And are you kidding? Europe vs AZ? If I had to choose between a water polo (or wrestling) tour, do you think I'd take the European one, even Bulgaria, over a state every time. While H-W is in some senses strict about not missing school, they are also used to dealing with world class athletes and world team members. Many H-W water polo players have been on USA WP world youth, world cadet and world jr teams and have probably even missed some school over it. Coaches too. The old H-W water polo coach was the head coach US Olympic team at one point while he was coaching at H-W and I know he missed time for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1ue Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 From the perspective of his ambition, JJ would be crazy to pass up Bulgaria, unless Arizona is seen as a really highly rated event. I can't quite imagine a situation where Arizona would be that bigger of a deal than an international competition, particularly for someone looking to increase his visibility in the field, but I don't know much about figure skating. If it is not, as I assume, the only reason JJ would pass on it would be to spend time with Will. And Will would certainly expect JJ to give sacrifice ambition to spend time with his family. Brad and Robbie too. So I can perfectly well imagine JJ choosing Bulgaria, and that choice driving a wedge between him and the rest of the family. And that wedge being milked for all it's worth when they have no idea where JJ is, if he's okay, was his plane taken out too? Would Brad and Robbie even notice he was gone? Yes, yes they would. There's a pretty big difference between assuming your kid is fine on his own and completely ignoring his existence. I don't think they've crossed that line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) I was kind of being flippant with the Brad and Robbie remark, to match Mark's remark about leaving JJ in Bulgaria. I could see Will getting pissed off about JJ wanting to go off to Bulgaria instead of being around for his birthday, but then again, he might not. I figure at that point JJ would have been in his 3rd year of figure skating, and the family would be used to it. Edited February 26, 2012 by methodwriter85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjo Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 As I was rereading the last chapter two things struck me. One was that both Wade and George Granger are in the same place. Both dealing with many of the same problems. Family problems mostly but now have come to the moment they are going to set things right. The second is Trevor's last name Armitage. One of the great Virginia families. One of Trevor's forebearers was at Ft Mc Henry and another lead the troops in Pickett"s Charge at Gettysburg. how cool is that! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Arbour Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Wade's so intertwined with the First Families of Virginia it's almost scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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