9.11

[Mark Arbour]

No - you can't say he died of aids because of Jake. It was Sam's responsibility to protect himself. He may have contracted AIDS from Jake, but condoms did exist back then, Aids had been identified by then, or if he had stayed faithful to his partner - either when he was with JP or later when he married Maria, he would have been around as Tony and Julia grew up. Seems like a great stroke of luck to me that Maria didn't contract the disease as well.  

 

And unless I missed some tryst along the way - Will DOES have a father that is gay, and the Crampton/Shulter/Hayes family seems pretty tight knit to me - or did up till Isadore, Claire and Marie fell off the support the family wagon.

 

And to be fair, we don't know that Sam got AIDS from Jake, that's just been the assumption.  

[methodwriter85]

There hasn't been as much history lately, as, quite frankly, this was a somewhat boring period of time.  I've chosen to use that to develop the characters more.  Hopefully that works out in the end.

 

     It is pretty interesting though- the late 90's/pre-9/11 time period was pretty quiet for the United States. We had the whole Columbine High School deal going on, but generally it was a stable, prosperous,peaceful time. That all gets shot to hell after 9/11- we had the D.C. snipers in '02, Iraq War in '03, the Republican National Convention protests (the '04 election rhetoric was definitely the nastiest I remember) and the Asian Tsunami in '04, Hurricane Katrina in '05, Virginia Tech in '07, and the financial meltdown of '08-'09.

 

     And this current decade has had some major stuff go down- the B.P. oil spil in '10, the Tunisia/economic inequality protests of '11,  and Hurricane Sandy and Sandy Hook in '12.

 

      I think it'll be really interesting to see how the characters react to it.

Edited June 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

Tony...or maybe I should say Sam - he's being shuffled towards Exit, Stage Left...isn't he.

 

I suppose the idea is probably going to be (even if it's not mentioned so by anyone) that, Tony apparently feels that he is in fact his father's son - in every way that he can think of - so, he's giving in and effectively living up to that, by way of he simply can't and/or won't help himself.

[methodwriter85]

   I don't think it's just that. I think it's that as sexy as Italian machismo can be, there is also this very strong mindset that it's okay to fuck around because you are the man, but if your significant other was to do so, they're a whore.Thus, Will is seeing the dark side of that macho Italian attitude he finds so sexy. My sister had a boyfriend like that. It's very unsettling to watch.

 

Tony...or maybe I should say Sam - he's being shuffled towards Exit, Stage Left...isn't he.

 

      As much as that would thrill Tim, I can't see that being case. Will does need some conflict in his life- I'm sure it'll be a decade-long "will they?/won't they?" deal.

 

     Of course if Mark has Tony graduate in 2004 and NOT stick around in California, then I can see it.

Edited June 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Westie]

      As much as that would thrill Tim, I can't see that being case. Will does need some conflict in his life- I'm sure it'll be a decade-long "will they?/won't they?" deal.

 

     Of course if Mark has Tony graduate in 2004 and NOT stick around in California, then I can see it.

 

Will can manage "conflict" perfectly well without Tony.  For references, just re read paternity

[MJ85]

As much as that would thrill Tim, I can't see that being case. Will does need some conflict in his life- I'm sure it'll be a decade-long "will they?/won't they?" deal.

 

Of course if Mark has Tony graduate in 2004 and NOT stick around in California, then I can see it.

I can't see why Will would want to bother putting up with anyone for that long in such a back-and-forth kind of deal. All things considered, it would not shock me if he went on to become the guy who ends up not having a closed committed relationship, purely out of his own choosing. The idea would be, that having a committed relationship with one guy would only bog him down, rather than be any good for him.

 

And I think we both know that there won't really be a thrill unless Tony is killed outright. Because that's the only way to guarantee that Tony would never ever re-appear again. It's not like this is Days of Our friggin' Lives, after all.

[centexhairysub]

I really can't see Tony being killed off at this point.  We have all had those people in our lives that drive us crazy but there is something about them that always pulls us back into their sphere of influence.  I don't know that Will and Tony will spend a decade doing the will they or won't they dance but I can't see them really disappering out of each other's lives either. 

 

They are just at very different points in their respective lives and are not in a place to be good together right now; that doesn't mean that ten years from now they won't being have a ceremony and pledging undying love for one another. 

 

Right now, Will is just more mature and sure of himself than Tony; the problem is as his actions in this chapter proved, he isn't as mature or as in control of his life and reactions as he thought he was...  Will is very extremely mature for his age but he is just shy of being fifteen and just doesn't have the experience to handle or view each situation in a rational and calm manner.   

 

I think that methodwriter is right; the cultures with heavy machismo often encourage the men to cheat on whomever they are with.  The problem is that they view the partner doing the same thing in a completely negative context.  Tony has a double issue of being brought up in a culture that teaches him it is okay to cheat but his partner can't; plus he has the history of his father's behaviour and how that affected everything in the early years of his life...

Edited June 8, 2013 by centexhairysub

[Mark Arbour]

I can't see why Will would want to bother putting up with anyone for that long in such a back-and-forth kind of deal. All things considered, it would not shock me if he went on to become the guy who ends up not having a closed committed relationship, purely out of his own choosing. The idea would be, that having a committed relationship with one guy would only bog him down, rather than be any good for him.

 

I think that's where Will is right now.  If you think about it, he didn't really offer Tony a monogamous, committed relationship.  He just told him it wasn't possible.  Maybe that's what Tony needs: a committed relationship with another guy.

[MJ85]

I think that's where Will is right now. If you think about it, he didn't really offer Tony a monogamous, committed relationship. He just told him it wasn't possible. Maybe that's what Tony needs: a committed relationship with another guy.

I think Will would have been it for Tony, if Will would have been able to commit exclusively. I can't imagine newly-totally-out Tony making such a commitment with someone who he doesn't already know. With that someone not being Will, that leaves Rick - and a Rick-andTony pairing doesn't strike me as a future committed pair in-the-making.

 

Would Tony in fact be thinking that his own promise was ultimately not worth living up to because he knows deep down that he just can't get the same from Will?

[B1ue]

Would Tony in fact be thinking that his own promise was ultimately not worth living up to because he knows deep down that he just can't get the same from Will?

 

I'm not certain where you're getting that from. Will sleeps around, but he's not in a relationship, and so owes nothing to anyone. And he's come down hard on people that sleep around on him even when he only had an understanding with them, John and Tony being the primary examples that spring to mind. I don't think he really wants a committed relationship either (and I like that he's bright enough to know that), but I also don't think he'd break that promise first, if he made it. He's certainly not lacked follow-through on any other whims he's had. The opposite was usually true.

 

I kind of dislike Carmine. I would have been pissed as hell in WIll's shoes, no matter how good-looking the guy was. But, then, I also wouldn't have messed around with Mason. No need to get into someone else's relationship drama, so perhaps Carmine was a better alternative. I wonder if Rick put him up to it?

Edited June 8, 2013 by B1ue

[MJ85]

I'm not certain where you're getting that from. Will sleeps around, but he's not in a relationship, and so owes nothing to anyone. And he's come down hard on people that sleep around on him even when he only had an understanding with them, John and Tony being the primary examples that spring to mind. I don't think he really wants a committed relationship either (and I like that he's bright enough to know that), but I also don't think he'd break that promise first, if he made it. He's certainly not lacked follow-through on any other whims he's had. The opposite was usually true.

 

Tony's own hormones. If he was in fact horny enough, that he wants to hook up with someone who isn't Will, and in that moment of (misguided?) clarity, realizes that Will won't ever be committed to just him, never mind that Will had never promised to be, then...

 

It's likely not what did happen here - but...what if it was?

Edited June 8, 2013 by MJ85

[PrivateTim]

I really can't see Tony being killed off at this point.  We have all had those people in our lives that drive us crazy but there is something about them that always pulls us back into their sphere of influence.  I don't know that Will and Tony will spend a decade doing the will they or won't they dance but I can't see them really disappering out of each other's lives either. 

 

They are just at very different points in their respective lives and are not in a place to be good together right now; that doesn't mean that ten years from now they won't being have a ceremony and pledging undying love for one another. 

 

Right now, Will is just more mature and sure of himself than Tony; the problem is as his actions in this chapter proved, he isn't as mature or as in control of his life and reactions as he thought he was...  Will is very extremely mature for his age but he is just shy of being fifteen and just doesn't have the experience to handle or view each situation in a rational and calm manner.   

 

I think that methodwriter is right; the cultures with heavy machismo often encourage the men to cheat on whomever they are with.  The problem is that they view the partner doing the same thing in a completely negative context.  Tony has a double issue of being brought up in a culture that teaches him it is okay to cheat but his partner can't; plus he has the history of his father's behaviour and how that affected everything in the early years of his life...

 

Unfortunately I don't see Tony dying anytime soon either. But the only thing that pulls Will back to Tony is great sex and he can find great sex other places. So far I haven't seen anything redeeming about Tony's character. Despite being at Stanford he doesn't seem like an intellectual giant, or motivated to great things. Will and Tony might stay fuck buddies, but I don't see Tony ever catching up to Will emotionally or intellectually.

 

My experience, my observation, you don't go back to a places you've been before*. Ten years from now Will will wonder what he ever saw in Tony (unless Mr. Arbour is too chintzy to create a new character). I still see Will with someone more like JP (Alistair or Mason like), someone more cerebral and committed.

 

I think it still is not too late for a tragic drowning (or not so tragic from my viewpoint).

 

I was thinking Tony had made an inch of progress last chapter, but I think this chapter confirms and expands something I said last chapter;  that dropping Dana wasn't about Tony's committment to Will, it was about the fear that Will and Rick would hook up on the trip and now even worse, it was that and Tony's own wanting to hook up with Rick on the trip. Dana, who no one liked anyway, was going to be in the way of that. Dana will figure out sooner or later that it is because Rick and Will are better pieces of ass than she is.

 

*I am applying this epsecially to freshman in high school. Very few wind up with their 9th grade love.

Edited June 9, 2013 by PrivateTim

[Daddydavek]

Tony and Will do seem to have ongoing problems.  I was surprised Will decided to go back to the float after the confrontation when they went to get ice.  That Will let Carmine do him and then the way he responded to Tony seemed to forcefully confirm their status was down graded to fuck buddies.  I don't see Tony going to Hawaii with Will.  

[mmike1969]

Tony's problem: everyone BUT Tony knows he's gay...

 

When he finally comes out I think only Tony's mom is going to have a problem.

 

I can see mom just slap Tony because he thinks mom is stupid or something.

[MJ85]

That Will let Carmine do him and then the way he responded to Tony seemed to forcefully confirm their status was down graded to fuck buddies.

Assuming he doesn't stay too angry at him to even want him touching him. No, I wouldn't be surprised if their status is now...well, no status at all.

[Miles Long]

I'm voting for no status at all; I'll pencil it in next election if its not on the ballot.

 

My take on Will is that if he commits then he's all in; therefore, he is cautious about committing (hence why he didn't get carried away when Tony declared his love in Rome).  Will knew neither of them were in a place for the big "You're it for me, babe" and laid out a dream situation where he only expected to be Tony's priority when he and Tony have planned meetings.  Will, I think could live with Tony being the angsty dorkotronic, but learning that Tony is a serial cheating, lying, selfish, angsty dorkotronic tilts Will's tolerance meter.

 

Will's a catch; why does he seem to hook up with just about any random D-bag that expresses interest regardless if that interest is even really mutual?

[MJ85]

Will's a catch; why does he seem to hook up with just about any random D-bag that expresses interest regardless if that interest is even really mutual?

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe he's just plain addicted to getting even remotely hot guys to bang him, and being the moody slave to hormones that he is, the thought of breaking the habit isn't even unconsciously on the radar.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm voting for no status at all; I'll pencil it in next election if its not on the ballot.

 

My take on Will is that if he commits then he's all in; therefore, he is cautious about committing (hence why he didn't get carried away when Tony declared his love in Rome). 

 

Will's a catch; why does he seem to hook up with just about any random D-bag that expresses interest regardless if that interest is even really mutual?

 

Your first two points are basically linked.  I think you're right about Will, and that when he goes in, then he's all in.  That's why he's keeping his status so open. 

 

The hook-up thing is probably a combination of a number of things.  Part of it is experimentation, and trying new things (or guys), much as he described to Hot Jeff in Paternity.   Part of it is probably hormonal.  Part of it is  because sex is fun.  And part of it is probably to satisfy some sort of emotional need.  It could be like Stef, who probably feels like he's attractive when guys fuck him.  It could be like Matt, who views getting with guys as part of the hunt. 

[sat8997]

 

Will's a catch; why does he seem to hook up with just about any random D-bag that expresses interest regardless if that interest is even really mutual?

 

Hello?? Horny fourteen year old with a working dick.

[Miles Long]

Hello?? Horny fourteen year old with a working dick.

 

Yes, yes I realize that  ; however, in most other aspects Will's capacities far exceed his 14 years.  I'm just pondering if Will will hookup with someone he likes that actually gives a crap about him as a person and not a cum creation vehicle or slut boy on the side.

It's a fun read either way.

[Mark Arbour]

Yes, yes I realize that  ; however, in most other aspects Will's capacities far exceed his 14 years.  I'm just pondering if Will will hookup with someone he likes that actually gives a crap about him as a person and not a cum creation vehicle or slut boy on the side.

It's a fun read either way.

 

I think that he's hooked up with guys who actually like him, and give a crap about him.  I think that Tony has really strong feelings for Will, he's just fucked up.  Going back to Paternity, I think that Jeff could definitely fit into that slot, as could Ryan.  Will went through that phase where he fell in love with every guy he was with (Poor Man's Son).  I'll bet he's pretty gun shy now, and he's keeping relationships largely off the table. 

[B1ue]

This is one of the few times I've been irritated at Will. "I guess this means I'm gay." "Yep!"

 

No kid. It means he liked gay sex. I'm not arguing that the diagnosis was wrong, but he's basing it off the wrong symptoms.

 

Edit: Further, I'm worried that Mason came to that conclusion after he bottomed, because he might buy into the idea that tops can be straight, but anyone who bottoms, even once, is gay. And quite frankly, Will should know better.

 

I'm almost hoping that Mason was just using him for his connection to Brad, and thus the defense industry. That's how annoyed I am.

Edited June 13, 2013 by B1ue

[Miles Long]

I think that he's hooked up with guys who actually like him, and give a crap about him.  I think that Tony has really strong feelings for Will, he's just fucked up. 

 

Really super fucked up now that I've read the latest chapter .

It was nice to see that Mason turned it around a little.

 

This is one of the few times I've been irritated at Will. "I guess this means I'm gay." "Yep!

 

I get irritated with Will a lot, but then I remind myself he's only 14 and a fictional character too boot

[B1ue]

I get irritated with Will a lot, but then I remind myself he's only 14 and a fictional character too boot

I fully agree with you on the character half of this statement, but not the "only 14" part. If I'm going to be comfortable with the idea of him having sex at that age, then I have to feel he can handle the emotional as well as physical aspects of sex (as Method pointed out a long time ago, I'm a bit of a prude). He's only 14, but his character demands that the reader consider him to be as emotionally and mentally mature as an average 18 year old. Perhaps even more mature, after all, he's had more experience than the average 18 year old, let alone average 14 year old. And that experience specifically includes guys that liked gay sex but didn't identify as gay, and the difference between the two states.

Edited June 13, 2013 by B1ue

[methodwriter85]

    And it's a little weird that he thinks that way, given how close he was to Gathan the Ultimate Bisexual last summer. It's not like Will hasn't been introduced to the concept.

 

    From last chapter reviews...

 

I can completely understand your rationale, but I really don't think Will is that susceptible to a Neil kind of person.  His extremely high internal locus of control combined with his fierce independence would mitigate those other factors.  That's not to say he can't have a bad relationship, but I'm not seeing it being abusive in a sexual/physical way.

       Will has an incredibly good bullshit meter. You can argue Tony, but the truth was that Will has not been around Tony enough to get a real "feel" for how he interacts with people- the first significant vacation with Tony was in the city of love with Rome, and the second "alone" time experience didn't exactly end well. Will is not naieve or trusting enough to buy into a Neal, who frankly wasn't that good at fooling people.

 

       If anything, you've setting JJ up for that happening somewhere down the line. It's been established that JJ is not good at being able to read people. I can see JJ having Robbie's trait of thinking that you need to buy things for your friends to get them to like you, and unlike 1985 Robbie, 2005 JJ would have the kind of money to be able to do it.

 

       As for this chapter...floating sounds like fun. Over by here, there was an event where people would get smashed while in boats anchored in the Chesapeake Bay, but that unfortunately got 86ed.