9.11

[Kitt]

 

The first tissue was needed after the hug between Lou and Brad.... Quick Draw McGraw eh?

Sorry Carlos, but I have you beat there - first tissue was needed when I saw the chapter had posted. Oddly, very much like in my real life, I managed to get through the memorial with a minimum of tears, then lost it again when Brad was on the beach.

 

 

I think Sammy is right - JJ would not have liked any place at this point. What's the old phrase? "You would bitch if they hung you with a brand new rope."?  Nana dropped a grief councilor in their laps that first morning.  Will more or less forced Brad into his shrinks office.  I think they all could do with a few visits.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Kitt

[Northern Dutch Guy]

9.11 50th part was again a nice but sad and almost tear jerking part for me. Beautifull written from Mark's pov.

A nice find to have him couple with Marcel, who reminds him of Robby but... also showed him he is a good sexual partner. A longed for sexual partner.

The good sex he had with Marcel may help him with growing over losing Robby.... and make him realise sex can still be great with another partner ..

For Brad it might be one of the first steps realising there is another lifetime after loosing Robby.

 

As always ... keep writing...

NDG

[Daddydavek]

The memorial was all  it was possible to be.  Including intensely personal.  Including the final phone call was the dramatic highlight.  The featured artists and music was just awesome.  I can't say enough about how much I liked this chapter.

[B1ue]

I don't know about all of you, but I'm reduced to eating carbs and candy after that one. I'm industriously chewing an entire loaf of French bread and chocolate for dinner.

 

Edit to avoid double post: As a character, I like JJ. He's so very different, and so very impatient, and I cannot wait to see what he does next.

 

Though if I actually had to deal with him, that little twerp would have ended up in a trash can.

Edited October 27, 2013 by B1ue

[methodwriter85]

Edit to avoid double post: As a character, I like JJ. He's so very different, and so very impatient, and I cannot wait to see what he does next.

 

Though if I actually had to deal with him, that little twerp would have ended up in a trash can.

 

     I can't really think of any CAP character we've had who's like him, because CAP is generally about either the in-your-face types, the mellow "go your own way" types, or the quiet, logical types who save their fire for when it's needed in a smackdown. JJ's not any of those. He's reserved but unabashedly rude, childish yet very capable of observing truths about others, and snobby yet very insecure. There are a lot of layers to him and he's hard to pin down, exactly. Whereas Will is very much the typical "Wear his heart on his sleeve" CAP type, like Brad, Matt, and Robbie were, JJ's hard to understand.

 

    I do think the simple fact that we know JJ's not going to win the Olympics, at either '06 Torino or '10 Vancouver, is where the kid will probably wind up growing up a lot from. Think about it- JJ's entire life revolves around the fact that he wants to make winning an Olympic gold medal and ending up on the cover of a Wheaties box at 20 years old a reality. I think dealing with that disappointment will force knock him off his perch and really make the guy evaluate himself.

 

     It was interesting to read that Brad sees JJ as being "stunningly handsome", because before that he was described as a handsome, cute kid with slightly effeminate looks. I wonder if that means JJ is starting to mature more physically- like now he looks more 14-ish instead of the 12-year old he's been described as looking. JJ's also apparently 5'6" now- J.P.'s height. I figured the kid was in the 5'2" to 5'3"-ish range from at least Millennium through to Paternity, so he's probably grown a little, but not anywhere close to Will's height- he's probably 6'1" or 6'2" while Darius is likely 6" even like Brad. (I think Matt is 6'1" while Wade is 5'10"...I know Stefan is probably about 6'2".)

 

     I loved reading how Brad views his kids- they're now 15 to 19 years old now, and they're no longer the little kids that he, Robbie, and Jeanine tried to keep Bitty from messing with. Mark's really going for the "trio of Brothers" here theme like he didn't really do for Brad, Ace, and Billy.

 

     As for the actual funeral, I had to read that chapter while I was watching the Cory Montieth tribute on Glee. Yeah, you can imagine what a bawling mess I was.

Edited October 27, 2013 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

Sorry JP is 5'7". I found this last chapter 50 very revealing. Brad has never up to this point discribed his sons. You can see an insight into how he sees them. Also you see Brad slowly returning leaving his grief behind. I know this has been hard on him but maybe he will grow from going through it. For the first time since 9 11 I see light at the end of the tunnel.

Edited October 27, 2013 by rjo

[PrivateTim]

   I do think the simple fact that we know JJ's not going to win the Olympics, at either '06 Torino or '10 Vancouver, is where the kid will probably wind up growing up a lot from. Think about it- JJ's entire life revolves around the fact that he wants to make winning an Olympic gold medal and ending up on the cover of a Wheaties box at 20 years old a reality. I think dealing with that disappointment will force knock him off his perch and really make the guy evaluate himself.

 

I don't think JJ is going to be that surprised or disappointed that he doesn't win an Olympic medal. As a 14 year old on the junior national team that is always your goal and dream, but as you get older reality sets in. The skating world is pretty predictable. If you haven't won a bunch of men's national titles and placed in the World's a few times you know that the odds of you winning an Olympic medal are remote. There are very few upsets in figure skating in the Olympics because the judging is so subjective and the favorites get the benefit of the doubt. JJ will have a good idea of his realistic chances starting in 2005 and probably even before that.

[methodwriter85]

     That's if JJ grows up and becomes realistic. The way he is now, the kid is off in a dream world and in his own universe. In any event, we've been working with Daisy over the past couple of years to write out a career timeline for JJ where it's realistic that he could win, similar to Johnny Weir, who should have gotten a medal but hasn't.

 

    As for predictability...sometimes it doesn't go that way. According to Daisy, no one thought Sarah Hughes would win the 2002 Olympics. But the people who were thought to be ahead of her kept making mistakes until she got closer and closer to the top of the podium.

 

    In any event, the kid is due for a lot of angst- angst that I don't think JJ will work through until at least his early 20's because of how repressed he is.

Edited October 27, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Carlos Hazday]

Mark has not written JJ to be a very likeable individual. I'm sure it's fun for him to create a character who's not a sex pig or a goody, goody.And yeah Kitt, the last one of those was probably Tim also LOL

 

So Mark, are you going to continue writing him as a jerk? I'm sure you enjoy the fact that people talk about him, and discuss his Olympics future as if he was a real person instead of just a figment of your imagination! I mean, no matter what people dream up, in the end you'll write him in a way you feel will benefit the story. As far as I'm concerned you could always do to him what you did to Ace....... Make him irrelevant! 

Edited October 27, 2013 by Carlos H

[Sammy Blue]

As far as I'm concerned you could always do to him what you did to Ace....... Make him irrelevant! 

 

I think while that is an easy solution, I really enjoy the interaction of Will and JJ, like for example when JJ stood up for Will by leaving his signet ring on the dining table at Escorial, or how Will and JJ dealt with the abuse of JJ, or on the bus on their way out of NYC.

 

(Maybe I'm missing something, but) Ace's only use is pretty much being a hothead at dinner at Escorial every once in a while. I don't think we have seen him in any other position since his high school years, have we? I would hate for that to happen to JJ. I think it would be interesting to see how he matures and also learn about his sexual encounters (+ possibly confusion about being gay or straight or bi) after his abuse and how he deals with that. I think it is an interesting topic. As he grows older he will change (I lope at least LOL) and become less bitchy, and that should make more people like him. It would be interesting to see him develop. I hope to see that at least.

 

I can see JJ ending up like Marcel or Ace or the like, but frankly I think he has more potential and I hope Mark will go for it.

 

My two cents for tonight

Edited October 28, 2013 by Sammy Blue

[B1ue]

Now, I don't speak for mark

 

So Mark, are you going to continue writing him as a jerk? I'm sure you enjoy the fact that people talk about him, and discuss his Olympics future as if he was a real person instead of just a figment of your imagination! I mean, no matter what people dream up, in the end you'll write him in a way you feel will benefit the story. As far as I'm concerned you could always do to him what you did to Ace....... Make him irrelevant! 

Now, I don't speak for Mark, nor am I a member of his support team, but I would take a comment like this and run with it in his shoes. We've not seen many sides of Ace since Be Rad, as Sammy pointed out. While Claire is oft mentioned as a parental figure for Will's generation, even going as far as to offer her home to Will should things sour between him and Brad again, Ace is a parent too. What if he made a similar offer to JJ?

 

I don't think this is at all likely, but it would serve a couple of purposes should JJ become a more central narrator in an upcoming story.

[methodwriter85]

     Will once noted that JJ puts up this bitchy exterior so that nobody wants to be around him, because in JJ's head, he's an ugly, tainted person because of his coach. It became his armor to keep him from becoming vulnerable. Remember, we only really started seeing JJ becoming a bitch until after he switched coaches around December 1999, and his bitchery didn't really rear its ugly head until Gathan came around circa March 2000. It's entirely possible that it's when the abuse started, because you got the idea that the abuse had been going on for awhile by the time that it was discovered on Christmas, 2000.

 

     JJ's not comfortable with real emotions because then he'd really have to dive into how he feels about the things that have happened to him in just the span of two years- seeing his fathers nearly divorce, getting molested while keeping it a secret for close to a year, watching his younger brother completely go off the rails in his battle against Brad while the older one was away at college, seeing his mother get hospitalized, himself having a nervous breakdown that led to his getting hospitalized, learning his biggest rival committed suicide as a result of him also getting molested by the same coach, becoming estranged from his mother, spending his mother's last weekend of life shopping instead of having quality time with her, and losing the father he probably cared about more than Brad in an act of unimaginable, horrific violence. That all got put on the shoulders of a small, 13 to 15-year old kid, with the emotional maturity of a 12-year old. If it were a 25-year old acting like this, it'd be one thing, but it's a 15 year old kid, and an immature 15 at that who like Darius and Will grew up never hearing the word "no." I'm not saying his assy behavior is acceptable, but it is understandable.

 

 

I would hate for that to happen to JJ. I think it would be interesting to see how he matures and also learn about his sexual encounters (+ possibly confusion about being gay or straight or bi) after his abuse and how he deals with that. I think it is an interesting topic.

 

     What I think will be interesting will be when JJ starts having intimate relationships, and what happens when he gets asked about his scars from his cutting episode. From what I understand, JJ really fucked up his body with cutting way more than Marie did, so there's gotta be significant scarring. I've had friends who cut and I remember they tended to wear a lot of bracelets to try and hide the scars.

 

 

While Claire is oft mentioned as a parental figure for Will's generation, even going as far as to offer her home to Will should things sour between him and Brad again, Ace is a parent too. What if he made a similar offer to JJ?

 

      That could actually be really interesting. Maybe Ace could step up as a paternal figure for JJ to replace the one he lost in Robbie? (I think as much as JJ probably loves Brad, he also feels hesitant to engage Brad into having a stronger relationship because he knows the cost you pay to be close to Brad. I think JJ prefers the benign neglect when it comes to Brad.)

Edited October 28, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Sammy Blue]

That could actually be really interesting. Maybe Ace could step up as a paternal figure for JJ to replace the one he lost in Robbie? (I think as much as JJ probably loves Brad, he also feels hesitant to engage Brad into having a stronger relationship because he knows the cost you pay to be close to Brad. I think JJ prefers the benign neglect when it comes to Brad.)

 

The hothead and the bitch? Maybe even living in the same house or close? You guys don't really want to see that do you? I wonder who will strangle the other one first.

 

LOL maybe it's not that bad but I don't really see it happening. I don't remember them having any connection and I think Ace would react towards JJ a lot like Darius does. To me that sounds rather explosive than curing. Also I think for Ace to be a father figure they would need to be close and I don't see JJ relocating to Palo Alto any soon. (Maybe if Brad has an ice rink built next to Escorial )

 

But someone HAS TO be there for JJ, sooner or later. I hope rather sooner than later because things won't get better by themselves. (methodwriter, that was a really good explanation to JJ's behaviour, especially the part about how he must think of himself) Will has been there now and then but that won't do it on long term, especially with them living apart.

 

Cody? Did Cody have any patience and understanding for JJ? I don't remember that right now, but maybe he will see things differently now and try to help JJ and be there for him? Maybe Brad will find a new partner sooner than we thought and that one will be there for JJ then?

 

Who knows... :3

 

Another thought: I think we can be glad that JJ doesn't really do any drugs and that he has not much contact to that scene. If he had access to those I fear we would have an OD incident very soon. I hope nothing of the like happens. I mean, it's actually possible that Mark goes there, but I really think the kid has been through enough.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Sammy Blue

[Kitt]

The hothead and the bitch? Maybe even living in the same house or close? You guys don't really want to see that do you? I wonder who will strangle the other one first.

 

.

If it were to work at all it would be BECAUSE they are a hothead and a bitch. One would learn to control his temper better because that's what the kid really needs and the other to curb the bitchiness because he doesn't want the fights.

 

 

Another thought: I think we can be glad that JJ doesn't really do any drugs and that he has not much contact to that scene. If he had access to those I fear we would have an OD incident very soon. I hope nothing of the like happens. I mean, it's actually possible that Mark goes there, but I really think the kid has been through enough.

We don't know that JJ doesn't do drugs really - just that there has been no evidence of it. I also get the feeling everyone is thinking drugs in the sense of first Jeff's and then Marcel's experiences.  JJ is into competitive sports in a time frame when performance enhancing drugs were just coming into national attention, and the governing bodies of sport associations were just hashing out how, when, and if to test people for them. Trainers and coaches encouraged their use, sometimes in "protein drinks" without even telling the athlete.  Somehow I keep associating bitchiness in JJ to 'Roid Rage. That could explain the swings from his insightful side to the really bitchy outbursts.

[Carlos Hazday]

 

(Maybe I'm missing something, but) Ace's only use is pretty much being a hothead at dinner at Escorial every once in a while. I don't think we have seen him in any other position since his high school years, have we? I would hate for that to happen to JJ. I think it would be interesting to see how he matures and also learn about his sexual encounters (+ possibly confusion about being gay or straight or bi) after his abuse and how he deals with that. 

 

Although the idea of following JJ while he deals with his abuse could be interesting, I don't see it happening. Mark has said before that he doesn't like to repeat plot lines and we've already had two molestation plots; Roger and Robbie....... Quick, who else has a name beginning with R. 

[Henson]

Speaking just for myself, I'd like JJ to have a career-ending injury within the next story.  It would grow him as a character, shake up the established dynamic, and I'd never have to read the word "Olympics" in this forum again.  Can we possibly obsess any more about a minor plot device?

 

Mark has never posted about JJ's figure skating career in this forum that I can recall.  This being his story, that lack of attention should inform everyone's opinion of just how important that hobby is.

 

For reference, there's more words in this story about riding horses than there are about skating.  The skating appeared to me to be a foil to Matt and Wade's hockey personae when they were the focus.  

[methodwriter85]

       As for the important of the device, you're right that it is pretty minor, but it does allow for something different in the story, it explains why JJ isn't just partying and hanging out with his brothers like the way Ace, Brad, and Billy did, and it's a glimpse into a world where JJ's uber-rich family isn't necessarily an asset, because of the very conservative values they expouse. It's also a pretty fun, catty world where the drama writes itself, as we saw in Norway.

 

We don't know that JJ doesn't do drugs really - just that there has been no evidence of it. I also get the feeling everyone is thinking drugs in the sense of first Jeff's and then Marcel's experiences. JJ is into competitive sports in a time frame when performance enhancing drugs were just coming into national attention, and the governing bodies of sport associations were just hashing out how, when, and if to test people for them.

 

      At this point, JJ's probably not on them, because he's subjected to random drug testing. As in an official could literally knock on his door and ask for a urine sample. He's also not really into the partying scene and his friends are people like Allistair, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to use it. Will has a pretty good read on people that he's not thinking he's falling in love with, and if JJ was using Will would totally know.

 

      But when JJ's 20, and trying to make up for the time he lost having fun because he sacrificed his childhood; there could be another answer entirely.

Edited October 28, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Gene Splicer PHD]

I like JJ. I hope he keeps being important to the story.

 

Let's talk about Frank now.

[Kitt]

That's hard. Mark hasn't given us too much to work with there.

[rjo]

Gene should be able to answer this question better than I can. I think that sometimes losses like what this family has had can bring the members together. Is Brad to old to change? Only time will tell. As for Frank, he invested everything is Robbie. He gave up his wife, his other children. Now Robbie is gone. I am not sure if Isidore will be strong enough to carry him. It maybe like Barry after Billy died. Only time will tell. I do think JJ is a lot stronger than he thinks he is.

[methodwriter85]

   If we were going to go by usual CAP protocol, some long-lost Hayes teenaged relative who looks like Robbie would show up, probably his brother or his sister's son, but I think Mark has run that "Hayes look-alike" well dry. It should be noted that Gathan and Zach, probably the only two New Generation Hayes Men  we've gotten any real intel on, don't look like Robbie. (Zach looks like the dream boat Liam Hemsworth...god, I'm hoping we see more of that manipulative bastard.)

 

    I would be interested in learning what happened to Robbie's brother and sister, and if they had any hot conveniently-aged off-spring. Honestly, I'd welcome that more than I did Tony. Then again, the Hayes family might have run their course as major players in the story. (I don't really think of Matt as a Hayes- it's in biology only. He's a Carrswold first and foremost.) The "curse", so to speak, has been lifted, Robbie's gone and Gathan looks like he's going to be a capable family leader for the Hayes and  a good leader for New Claremont. The Hayes family story feels "completed", for the most part, while it seems like Mark's ramping up the Danfield family story.

 

     I forget this one:

 

 

But someone HAS TO be there for JJ, sooner or later. I hope rather sooner than later because things won't get better by themselves. (methodwriter, that was a really good explanation to JJ's behaviour, especially the part about how he must think of himself) Will has been there now and then but that won't do it on long term, especially with them living apart.

 

      JJ is supposed to be pretty close to Matt, but Matt's more of a brotherly figure to him. I'm not sure who I can see as a fatherly figure to him...maybe Max? (Once JJ goes back to living in Los Angeles.) I can't see it being Father Tim or Cody, either.

Edited October 29, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

Shouldn't classes at Stanford be up and running, if not already then shortly?  That puts Gathan and Tony back in Palo Alto, and several lesser characters as well.  All sorts of opportunities to create both drama and new supportive relationships.

 

Odd that we didn't hear anything about Matt's adoptive family through all of this. Granted there were some pretty rough times when Matt found out he was adopted, and then when the rat fink outed him at the holiday dinner, but I had thought they had settled their differences and were getting on well?  Why on earth would the parents not have been there to support the boy they raised when he lost the bio-father he only recently found and came to love???

 

And of course there is the new, unknown quantity of Ethan.  We don't know nearly enough about him to even come close to the ballpark on speculating with him.

 

I am quite sure Mark can drive us all nuts with speculation without pulling another Jeff/Robbie look alike out of the woodwork.  Maybe if/when Wade brings Ethan to Escorial Frank will latch onto him and give them both something they need - Ethan a resident father figure and Frank a reason to move past losing Robbie!

[PrivateTim]

     That's if JJ grows up and becomes realistic. The way he is now, the kid is off in a dream world and in his own universe. In any event, we've been working with Daisy over the past couple of years to write out a career timeline for JJ where it's realistic that he could win, similar to Johnny Weir, who should have gotten a medal but hasn't.

 

    As for predictability...sometimes it doesn't go that way. According to Daisy, no one thought Sarah Hughes would win the 2002 Olympics. But the people who were thought to be ahead of her kept making mistakes until she got closer and closer to the top of the podium.

 

    In any event, the kid is due for a lot of angst- angst that I don't think JJ will work through until at least his early 20's because of how repressed he is.

 

No one thought Sarah Hughes would win in 2002 because Michelle Kwan had finished 1st or 2nd in the previous 6 World Championships, she had won Silver in 1998 and the years Kwan didn't win the Worlds Irina Slutskaya did, so Hughes was forecast no better than 3rd, which is where she had finished the in the Worlds the previous year. When you look at the scores Hughes got in her free skate, the judges left room for Kwan and Slutskaya to move past her, but both had such epic fails in their free skates, Hughes held her position.

 

But Hughes wasn't a surprise. She wasn't someone who had had come from 6th & 7th to suddenly be Olympic Champion, she'd had a lot of solid medal in 2001 & 2002 leading up to the Olympics and was poised to move up from the bronze position, where she'd finished in the Grand Prix FInal, the last tune-up before the Olympics, should Kwan and Slutskaya falter. That they both choked was what was unusual, not Hughes move from 3rd to 1st.

 

Point being, she was the heir apparent to Kwan, but no one expected her to win in 2002, 2006 was supposed to be her year. After she won the Olympics in 2002, her interest waned in skating, after all what was left to accomplish?

 

Speaking just for myself, I'd like JJ to have a career-ending injury within the next story.  It would grow him as a character, shake up the established dynamic, and I'd never have to read the word "Olympics" in this forum again.  Can we possibly obsess any more about a minor plot device?

 

Mark has never posted about JJ's figure skating career in this forum that I can recall.  This being his story, that lack of attention should inform everyone's opinion of just how important that hobby is.

 

For reference, there's more words in this story about riding horses than there are about skating.  The skating appeared to me to be a foil to Matt and Wade's hockey personae when they were the focus.  

 

Maybe you missed the Oslo chapters?

 

The 2002 Olympics are significant because Mitt Romney runs them and it gives Wade a chance to interact with Mitt, become charmed by him, and work on Mitt's ill-fated 2012 campaign. A trip to Salt Lake in 2002 would be a nice distraction for every one after the events of 9-11 and Stef could obsess about how good his figure looks in ski pants.

 

A lot of drama in CAP has gone on, in and around, ice rinks in the last two or three stories and they have been pivotal scenes and created pivotal situations. Without JJ's skating Jeanine might have been around more for Will and there wouldn't have been a meltdown, without JJ's skating there wouldn't have been the key scenes in Norway, there wouldn't have been the privy counsel meeting that Will was let in on where the decision to maybe off JJ's coach was made. All of those were important plot points and may crop up again in the future.

Edited October 30, 2013 by PrivateTim

[PrivateTim]

Shouldn't classes at Stanford be up and running, if not already then shortly?  That puts Gathan and Tony back in Palo Alto, and several lesser characters as well.  All sorts of opportunities to create both drama and new supportive relationships.

 

Odd that we didn't hear anything about Matt's adoptive family through all of this. Granted there were some pretty rough times when Matt found out he was adopted, and then when the rat fink outed him at the holiday dinner, but I had thought they had settled their differences and were getting on well?  Why on earth would the parents not have been there to support the boy they raised when he lost the bio-father he only recently found and came to love???

 

And of course there is the new, unknown quantity of Ethan.  We don't know nearly enough about him to even come close to the ballpark on speculating with him.

 

I am quite sure Mark can drive us all nuts with speculation without pulling another Jeff/Robbie look alike out of the woodwork.  Maybe if/when Wade brings Ethan to Escorial Frank will latch onto him and give them both something they need - Ethan a resident father figure and Frank a reason to move past losing Robbie!

 

We don't know that Matt's parents weren't there, in fact I would assume they were. Mark just didn't have time, room or the priority to show them in a scene with Matt, the chapter was already packed.

 

As to Ethan, I am sure we'll find out soon.

[rjo]

Matt's parents were in DC for the Senator's service, so I am sure they were at Robbie in LA.