9.11

[Westie]

Jeremy - you should writ a book, "rules for Soap Opera's".  Just be mindful of one thing:

 

You can say "this never happens in soap operas" all you want; but you ain't the writer, and I have a funny feeling that the guy who IS the writer doesn't mind breaking the rules.

 

Unlike the writer of a soap, Mark doesn't get monetary rewards (though if he were to host these stories himself with a few google ads im sure he'd make a mint).  Mark's prime motivator is the commentary/adulation that is left here.  If someone is motivated in such a way, it then becomes oh so probable that stories will take controversial, unexpected and rule-breaking twists.

[methodwriter85]

Jeremy - you should writ a book, "rules for Soap Opera's".  Just be mindful of one thing:

 

You can say "this never happens in soap operas" all you want; but you ain't the writer, and I have a funny feeling that the guy who IS the writer doesn't mind breaking the rules.

 

Unlike the writer of a soap, Mark doesn't get monetary rewards (though if he were to host these stories himself with a few google ads im sure he'd make a mint).  Mark's prime motivator is the commentary/adulation that is left here.  If someone is motivated in such a way, it then becomes oh so probable that stories will take controversial, unexpected and rule-breaking twists.

 

Very true. And there have been some soap conventions that Mark hasn't followed- namely, with the exception of Aaron, when peope die, they stay dead.

 

Such a good point to make!

[mmike1969]

Very true. And there have been some soap conventions that Mark hasn't followed- namely, with the exception of Aaron, when peope die, they stay dead.

Unless it was a dream and the entire season got wiped off the books.

 

Maybe Brad's brother woke up from a coma after that car crash and Mark can re-write everything from Bloodlines on forward.

Edited May 2, 2013 by mmike1969

[methodwriter85]

Unless it was a dream and the entire season got wiped off the books.

 

Maybe Brad's brother woke up from a coma after that car crash and Mark can re-write everything from Bloodlines on forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvinAPPfyAQ

 

Hee. I didn't even watch that show, but I Love the 80's had a segment on Dallas, and the "It was all a dream" deal was mocked endlessly. From what I understand, because they did that, they had to break away from Knots Landing, which was the spin-off, because on Knots Landing one of the brothers had named their kid "Bobby" in memoriam, similiar to how Will was named after both his dead uncle and his dead grandfather.

 

I had no clue that the Dad from Step by Step was such a hunk when he was young before I saw old Dallas clips.

 

I'm more of a Dynasty fan, though. I mean, really, what's not to love about two rich broads bitchslapping each other while wearing over-the-top 80's fashion?

 

[GLH]

 

I had no clue that the Dad from Step by Step was such a hunk when he was young before I saw old Dallas clips.

 

 

Jeremy, you think Patrick Duffy's was hot on "Dallas", you should check out his first TV series "Man From Atlantis".  It was short-lived, a cheesy, sci-fi series on NBC that lasted through four TV movies and 13 episodes from early '77 to mid '78.  I don't think he spent much time dressed in anything but spandex trunks throughout the entire series.     Gotta love the '70's.

Edited May 3, 2013 by GLH

[centexhairysub]

Well, I said once, long ago in one of the forums that I had to wonder if all of the stories were not just in JP's mind and he was in a coma from the accident coming back from Columbus all those years ago...

 

Okay, on with the latest chapter.  I really like how both Will and Brad handled themselves in the latest chapter.  I thought they set and held the tone just right.  Will seems to be the best in tune with how Jeanine and Hank are but Brad seems to be really trying as well.

 

I don't think you have seen signs of such domestic bliss since JP and Isidore in the condo in Chicago or maybe early at Escorial.  It is almost jarring to have two people acting like such a normal couple...

 

I continued to be really suprised by how Tony is acting and how Will is dealing with his behaviour.  I can see all kinds of problems ahead some of their own making and others like icebergs just under the service waiting to sink their relationship.  Not sure how that is going to turn out, but doubt it will be with a death on the rafting trip like some have suggested...  I do see Hurricane Dana causing problems for quite a while, she is going to blow, then take some time and reform, and then blow again...

[methodwriter85]

   All the talk about domesticity, and Will not really being used to it, made me think about Tony. He strikes me as someone who'd have a traditional view of raising kids in the suburbs with a white picket fence and cheering them on at Little League Baseball games...even if/when he comes around on being gay, Tony still strikes me as the kind of gay that would want to do that with his husband. I'm not sure I could see that with Will...it depends on how much of Brad's jet-set/corporate honcho lifestyle he wants to have. I can see Will with kids circa 2013, but I'm not sure I can see Will giving his kids the "colonial in the suburbs/soccer dads" upbringing that I'd see Tony doing.

 

   I think that's one of the interesting things about the 2000's- you started seeing young gay guys expressing the idea of having kids and raising them in the suburbs with car pools and soccer teams like their straight counterparts, as gay marriage and gay adoption started to become legal. The whole "circuit boi" image of gays in the media really started to change by the end of that decade.

 

   With Tiffany, I get the feeling that she'll definitely prefer the jet-set lifestyle with Riley. Being JJ's coach basically means she's choosing to take Riley around the world with her as she helps JJ chase the Olympic dream. I think if Wade could choose, he'd like the domestic bliss life for Riley, but it's pretty much impossible because of who they are. They're basically like the Kennedy family.

 

     I wonder what Ace and Cass did with Courtney...he doesn't really seem like he's part of the inner-circle of the Schluter Enterprises...Ace does strike me as a guy who'd settle down with a full-time mom type.

Edited May 4, 2013 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

I thought ace was running the winery?

[methodwriter85]

   I kind of figured that was more of a side, artisanal business, probably complete with a charming bed and breakfast. The winery can't be THAT big, if Roger were able to handle it himself, and it's now landlocked by development.

Edited May 4, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

   I kind of figured that was more of a side, artisanal business, probably complete with a charming bed and breakfast. The winery can't be THAT big, if Roger were able to handle it himself, and it's now landlocked by development.

 

A winery doesn't need to be big to be highly profitable and if you have more demand for your wine than grapes you can produce can provide, you buy grapes from other growers and crush and ferment them onsite at your winery.

 

Even hobbyist vinters don't work their own vines, you hire people for that.

[centexhairysub]

   I kind of figured that was more of a side, artisanal business, probably complete with a charming bed and breakfast. The winery can't be THAT big, if Roger were able to handle it himself, and it's now landlocked by development.

 

A winery doesn't need to be big to be highly profitable and if you have more demand for your wine than grapes you can produce can provide, you buy grapes from other growers and crush and ferment them onsite at your winery.

 

Even hobbyist vinters don't work their own vines, you hire people for that.

 

I think Tim is right about this.  I am pretty sure that I remember that Roger was winning some awards for his wine before his death and I can't see JP or Stef letting the winery wither away after his death.  If anything, I would think they worked to keep it growing and achieving as a way to honor Roger's memory...

[B1ue]

What a mess.

 

I think the excuse that "you always look to the family," is looking weaker, because they clearly aren't. That or they don't consider Brad's kids part of the real family.

 

I also think an arguement could be made that Will and Darius should learn how to deal with people like Eric and Carter in a social setting, that their fathers are able to schmooze with people they want to destroy, but the same should be said to Marie. And besides, they aren't going there. It really does look like Noah's feelings don't count, because he's middle class, or Will doesn't count.

[centexhairysub]

Marie is much more screwed up than I ever suspected.  I am going to lay most of the blame at her feet.  I am most shocked by Claire though, because I can't believe she let Marie put something like this over on her.  Marie lied to both her parents about apologizing to Will and then lied about Noah at least in part.  Claire must have a real blind spot about her kids, but I have to wonder how much longer that will last.  Claire has always been so open to everyone, she was an early champion of Mouse and others.  I understand Isidore a little more, tradition has always played a huge part in her life; this would make it harder for her to just drop people that have been invited for years.  Plus, Isidore may not have been fully aware of all the issues surrounding those that were added or left off the list; she may have just relied on Marie's comments and left it at that...

 

JP is going to realize that while Will was out of line with his tone; the message he was delievering was spot on...  Brad, Robbie, Darius, Will, and even JJ have been back and forth to Claremont and have been the ones to stand by JP's work at getting the town back on it's feet.  Claire's only recent return that I can remember was when she returned to deal with the issue of Ella's parentage. 

 

Will invoking Tonto may stir the spirit world.  Everyone might want to be a little more concerned then they are...

[MJ85]

Maybe Isidore, Claire, and Jack aren't thinking of the kids' grudges -and sorry Will, but you should NOT be the one controlling this family's decisions. But Marie seems to determined to make a full-blown enemy out of Will, consequences be damned. Thing is...assuming that she ever finds out of the legal pitfalls for Tony concerning his relationship with Will - BOOM! There's her trump card.

 

Just please tell me that this isn't headed for the way-too-overly-predictable route of family splits completely apart, then 9/11 happens, then suddenly everyone works to get back together. That would be so incredibly predictable, that it'd be outright cliche.

[mmike1969]

Kind of hard to get back together if you kill off an entire side of a family... Just saying

[B1ue]

Maybe Isidore, Claire, and Jack aren't thinking of the kids' grudges -and sorry Will, but you should NOT be the one controlling this family's decisions.

 

I agree that WIll should not be the one making these decisions, but neither should Marie, and Claire is letting her.

 

And, actually, Will isn't trying to control the decision. He's leaving that in JP's hands. He is allowed to have an opinion, and he is expressing that opinion, however indelicately. He is also pointing out that Marie is pulling the same crap that Brad and Claire did as teenagers, with worse reasons, that led up to Billy getting killed.

[methodwriter85]

   God, 13 through 15 are such incredibly bitchy ages. I wouldn't go back there for anything. I think Marie will be fine, but she's suffering through "everything is about ME and MY feelings" teenaged mindset right now. I'm a little disapointed in Claire, though. This feels really out of character for Claire to be that out-of-touch with what's going on.

 

   I loved Will pointing out about how Claire and her kids never show up for the Claremont events. Given that JP, Nick, and Brad have been busting their asses off to create a revival, and that Tonto's grand message was noblesse oblige, I can totally get why that bothers him. My guess is that Claire and her kids have firmly trended towards the Hobart side, and didn't do the Claremont events because they're too busy with Hobart Bay Area events.

 

    Finally, I loved that seven months ago, JJ and Will couldn't stand to be in the same room together, but now they're to the point where JJ backs Will up without even thinking.

[MJ85]

I agree that WIll should not be the one making these decisions, but neither should Marie, and Claire is letting her.

 

And, actually, Will isn't trying to control the decision. He's leaving that in JP's hands. He is allowed to have an opinion, and he is expressing that opinion, however indelicately. He is also pointing out that Marie is pulling the same crap that Brad and Claire did as teenagers, with worse reasons, that led up to Billy getting killed.

My initial thought was that Marie was the major overriding factor in the guest list...but there's something about what Isidore had to say that makes me think that it just can't be. Oh, she's definitely the one responsible for the parts that set Will off. But I don't buy that she'd also have been pushing for the whole families to be included - and striking Noah is something that could easily be done behind even Isidore's and her parents' backs only to then be uncovered right there at dinner. And Claire, whether Will's accusations of being snobby are true or not, has every right to be upset and defensive when Will makes it a habit of calling out Marie over dinner.

 

And sorry, but when Will expresses an opinion so strongly as this, how is that NOT trying to control the decision through outright shaming? Suppose that JP opposed Will on the guest list issue instead. Do you honestly think that he'd just put up with it?

[Gene Splicer PHD]

I think Claire may not have understood that the Bastille Day Party constituted such an ethical bomb for the family... 

[PrivateTim]

Maybe Isidore, Claire, and Jack aren't thinking of the kids' grudges -and sorry Will, but you should NOT be the one controlling this family's decisions. But Marie seems to determined to make a full-blown enemy out of Will, consequences be damned. Thing is...assuming that she ever finds out of the legal pitfalls for Tony concerning his relationship with Will - BOOM! There's her trump card.

 

The is no trump card for Marie with Will and Tony's relationship (nor for Dana). You have to understand the mind of a prosecuting attorney to understand why no charges would ever be filed against Tony. Prosecutions are not about Truth, Justice and the American way, they are about winning and without a victim on the stand a DA would have no way to win this case, not even if Will and Tony doing it onstage were the halftime show of the Super Bowl. DAs hate to lose cases and look stupid and trying to make Will implicate Tony on the stand would make a DA look stupid.

 

Here is my review, which also serves a good jumping off point on how I saw this chapter (with a correction bolded):

 

I thought this was supposed to be an unhappy chapter? I was grinning ear to ear.

 

It was nice to see Sainte Claire getting it wrong for a change. It is amazing how blind parents can be about their own kids sometimes. Apparently Claire is missing a thing or two in how Marie is.

 

The most interesting part of the whole chapter though was Will's observation about the Bastille Day guest list being weighted to the rich and powerful. I am not sure Will would actually be self aware enough to notice it since his 14 years have been in a cocoon of privilege, but he provides a good vehicle for Mark to show the movement of the Crampton & Schluter clans.

 

In smallish town mid-west America there were prominent families, but you regularly interacted across class lines with. The Crampton & Schluter clans went to public schools in Claremont which brought them into contact with people from all walks of life. In CA they live in elite conclaves.

 

When JP moved to Escorial, Palo Alto was just a nice, upper middle class, intellectually elite conclave, but by 2001 you couldn't swing a dead cat over your head without hitting a multi-millionaire and even several billionaires because of the tech boom in Silicon Valley. Ditto for Malibu and especially The Colony.

 

I am not saying the Cramptons & Schluters are wrong for sending their kids to private school, they pretty much have to at this point in CA and at their station. It isn't a snobbery issue, but safety and education quality. Yes you can still get a good education at Gunn or Palo Alto High, but nothing like The Menlo School and there are real dangers for the wealthy and their children.

 

I don't know how in the loop Isidore is with the daily goings on in the house because we see and hear from her so seldom, but Claire should have been acutely aware of all the ramifications of who was invited and who was not. While not exactly a helicopter mom, I can't see her being so detached that these subtleties escaped her. It makes me question all the 'practically perfect' attributes ascribed to her.

 

It was nice that JJ supported Will in removing the ring, but I think that was over the top for both of them. Given Will's actions over the last year and the amount of support he has had from the people in that room, taking the ring off and letting it fall noisily to the table was over the top. A simple, "what does this ring really mean, if you don't support family over outsiders" should have sufficed.

 

It was a nifty keen bit of writing though.

[Daddydavek]

I said it in my review, but I disagree with Pvt Tim's opinion that Will and JJ dropping their rings on the table was over the top.  It would be over the top for twenty someones or older, but for teenagers, it was just being emphatic.  I thought it was totally in character for Will and JJ following along was not surprising at all.  

[PrivateTim]

I said it in my review, but I disagree with Pvt Tim's opinion that Will and JJ dropping their rings on the table was over the top.  It would be over the top for twenty someones or older, but for teenagers, it was just being emphatic.  I thought it was totally in character for Will and JJ following along was not surprising at all.  

 

Right, but Will can't simultaneously be very mature for his age/wise beyond his years and a typical teenager (dramatic and emotional). The cold rationality of someone who raised the spectre of Tonto would have understood the ramifications of dropping the ring on the table.

[methodwriter85]

I am not saying the Cramptons & Schluters are wrong for sending their kids to private school, they pretty much have to at this point in CA and at their station. It isn't a snobbery issue, but safety and education quality. Yes you can still get a good education at Gunn or Palo Alto High, but nothing like The Menlo School and there are real dangers for the wealthy and their children.

 

Of course, we gotta qualify this analysis by remembering that in terms of Brad's kids, Darius went all the way through the public school system and graduated from Malibu High, and JJ and Will attended public school through 8th grade. Of course, it's not that JJ and Will would have been interacting with kids from the ghetto at Malibu Middle, but they still would have interacted with people that weren't at the same income price point. It's possible that's why Will is not quite as cocooned in priviliege and more empathetic than Marie and John are.

 

 

The cold rationality of someone who raised the spectre of Tonto would have understood the ramifications of dropping the ring on the table.

 

I agree that Will knew fully and exactly what he was doing there. I think JJ probably didn't, but he also knew that his brother needed to someone to stand behind him, and did it out of reflex. I also get the feeling with JJ that he's never been as tightly bond to the family's protocol as Darius and Will are, so he didn't have the framework for fully understanding the significance of what they were doing. It was like when JP was going off on JJ, and he almost didn't seem to care all that much.

 

I think that a blow-up of this sort really highlights the differences between Brad/Claire's generation and my own generation.  I am a few years older than Marie and Will, but I  recognize the forces that Marie and Will are representing here (or at least what I think they're representing).  The children of the 80s (my older brother and cousings) were very conscious of clothes, money, and status.  In my high school years, only a decade later, many people seemed much more concerned about shared experience in forming cliques.  I didn't get the overwhelming sense that everybody wanted (or even should want) the same things out of life.  While we still had people like Marie, who ruled the roost through a very compelling combination of beauty, style, and material wealth, I also knew many people like Will who simply did as they wanted without concern for what was en vogue. Some of the most popular people that I knew were people who were know as "good guys": people who were pleasant and welcoming. I did go to a private high school (not as prestigious as Menlo or HW, but well regarded on the East Coast), so I don't think it's simply a matter of setting.  Instead, I think it's a growing rejection of the sort of materialism that was rampant in the 80s and the embracing of individuality.

 

That's a very good point. It's not to say that our generation isn't materalistic...but there was something just incredibly greedy about Mark's generation where it really did seem to matter what labels you were wearing. Will is such a great example of how things had changed- not just in terms of the coming out narrative, but in terms of how peers related to each other. Yes, we had Mean Girls and Mean Guys, but there was also this strong sense of Do Your Own Thing, and a stronger sense of social activism. (Of course, that volunteerism was pretty much becoming expected or even mandatory in high school probably ushered that in.)

Edited May 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[sat8997]

 

Right, but Will can't simultaneously be very mature for his age/wise beyond his years and a typical teenager (dramatic and emotional).

 

 

Sure he can. My kids do it all the time. One minute I'm in awe of how brilliantly they handle themselves and fit into society and the next I'd like nothing better than to hang them up by their thumbs in the attic just so I don't have to hear them whine.

 

The cold rationality of someone who raised the spectre of Tonto would have understood the ramifications of dropping the ring on the table.

 

Will understood perfectly what he was doing. JP did too. The ring symbolizes family unity. Thanks to some poorly thought out planning and inattentiveness the 'family' just slapped Will up side the head with the fact that he's not considered part of that family unit.

[PrivateTim]

Of course, we gotta qualify this analysis by remembering that in terms of Brad's kids, Darius went all the way through the public school system and graduated from Malibu High, and JJ and Will attended public school through 8th grade. Of course, it's not that JJ and Will would have been interacting with kids from the ghetto at Malibu Middle, but they still would have interacted with people that weren't at the same income price point. It's possible that's why Will is not quite as cocooned in priviliege and more empathetic than Marie and John are.

 

Ya ever been to Malibu & Palo Alto?? Mmmmm, no. Will would need to go a very long ways to be exposed to different stratas of life. East Palo Alto is just the other side of the 101 and John and Marie would be aware of it and probably interact with those kids at the malls, movies, etc more than Will and JJ would.

 

I do agree that JJ was just following Will's lead, either to support him or just because follow is what JJ does.