Meat: Yes or No?

[Sasha Distan]

i try not to judge (anyone, for anything), but mostly, if no one's preaching, i don't much care. i won't cook vegetarian food though, you'll have to bring your own when you come to dinner. but i'll make it up to you with pudding.

[Aditus]

If someone can't live without meat for one meal I cook it, they'll have to taste it, though.

 

Ah Sasha there is always cake, and I drink tea beside flavored coffee, I'm very low-maintenance. (at least with my eating habits)

[JamesSavik]

I have no problems with eating animals.

 

If they were bigger, they would eat us.

 

We're just lucky the Saber-toothed tiger and velociraptor missed Noah's boat. (Or took a bad turn during the Jurassic period).

 

 

WWRJD?

 

(What Would Raptor Jesus Do?)

 

I'm guessing he would be having the lamb.

[TetRefine]

Guns and hunting were a part of the normal culture where I grew up. My dad took me out hunting when I was 10 years old, and I killed my first deer at 11. I went out hunting almost every season from when I was in 5th grade till I graduated high school. I took a few more bucks over the years and it never bothered me because I was taught that they were a food source. No need to get all emotional over your dinner. 

 

I also worked on a turkey farm every weekend before Thanksgiving during middle and high school. The way we slaughtered turkeys there was we went into a pen, grabbed it by the legs and swung it upside down, brought it to the stump and stretched its neck out, and in one swift cut the head came off. It never bothered me either watching this process or doing it myself, because they were born and raised for the sole purpose of being slaughtered for food. 

 

Living in the city now, people are totally amazed and grossed out when I tell them about my hunting and turkey farm days. They seem surprised that the burger they buy at the store or eat at a restaurant was actually living at one point and had to be slaughtered for consumption. Its as if they think it just appears out of nowhere. SMH. I love meat and its an essential part of my diet, and I never understand why people go vegetarian to "save the animals" or something stupid like that. 

[rustle]

Sasha's lesson has larger ramifications. It's not just: Can you live with killing and butchering animals for meat?

 

Where does anything come from? Is it endangered? Does harvesting it deplete something? Can and should it be managed? If we pave this area, will it prevent the aquifer from recharging adequately?

 

The interconnectedness of life and stuff is difficult to teach as a whole.

Edited December 18, 2013 by rustle

[mickey1952]

Kudos to helping your kids see both sides of the issue. As for me, I'm a total carnivore. My only rule is, if you kill it, eat it or make sure it gets eaten. Waste not, want not.

[Thorn Wilde]

Urgh - the advent of Halal meat. Probably one of the cruelest things out there. it's all about knowing where your meat is from.

 

I've had this discussion on Facebook recently, and think it's fair to add, without trying to turn this into a religious argument, that, while the animal has to be conscious, one of the original points of Halal was for the animal to experience as little pain as possible. As such, lots of Halal butchers anaesthetise the animals before they kill them. They're awake, but they don't feel pain, and they die very, very quickly when it's actually done according to the proper rules of Halal butchery, as you're meant to sever the arteries and the wind pipe in one quick cut.

 

All that aside, it's far more important to me how an animal lived than how they died. Knowing that they were 'humanely killed' is no comfort at all when I also know that they spent their entire lives indoors, never saw the sunlight, lived off of some sort of 'feed' rather than the food they would eat if they were outside (cows are supposed to eat grass). When I eat game, I know they were probably both afraid and in pain before they died (I mean, the first shot must rarely kill a large animal like a moose, unless I'm much mistaken), but I also know that they spent their lives running around in the forest doing animal things and living like nature intended them to. That to me is what matters most.

[Sasha Distan]

All that aside, it's far more important to me how an animal lived than how they died. Knowing that they were 'humanely killed' is no comfort at all when I also know that they spent their entire lives indoors, never saw the sunlight, lived off of some sort of 'feed' rather than the food they would eat if they were outside (cows are supposed to eat grass). When I eat game, I know they were probably both afraid and in pain before they died (I mean, the first shot must rarely kill a large animal like a moose, unless I'm much mistaken), but I also know that they spent their lives running around in the forest doing animal things and living like nature intended them to. That to me is what matters most.

 

i, almost entirely, agree with you. except that a good shot, a really good shot and the right gun, can and do kill big game with one shot. Hell, if my husband can get a rabbit through the eye socket on a regular basis - and he's not even that experienced... our friend Charlie can shoot a deer straight through the forehead from 400 metres. instant brain death.

[hh5]

On the meat side, feed them maggots n spoilage n contamination 

on the veggy side, feed them salmonella n whatever tiny eggs  

 

feed them good meat n good veggy but was irradiated by fukushima 

 

gosh remember the wild buffalo n the whales, the meaning of food n game

 

the meaning of extinction or genocide vs consumption

 

really whats important is teaching them the meaning to survive in the wild n in civilization

enroll them in a survival reality show or a movie scene where the bad guys are waiting for them to come out in the open

 

oh have them watch the movie "Alive 1993" ... survival where there is no veggy no animal meat but the need to survive

 

the meaning of the amount of food on the planet vs the ever growing population

 

lol, teach them the logan's run theory lol

 

however they do have a choice to not give a fuck of what they are supposed to learn because they figure that either issue isn't applicable to them for a long time except to pass at this very moment

 

another weird thought what happens when you throw a gourmet cook in the wild and still expect them to cook a world class meal at any given time for any given reason

Edited December 18, 2013 by hh5

[TetRefine]

All that aside, it's far more important to me how an animal lived than how they died. Knowing that they were 'humanely killed' is no comfort at all when I also know that they spent their entire lives indoors, never saw the sunlight, lived off of some sort of 'feed' rather than the food they would eat if they were outside (cows are supposed to eat grass). When I eat game, I know they were probably both afraid and in pain before they died (I mean, the first shot must rarely kill a large animal like a moose, unless I'm much mistaken), but I also know that they spent their lives running around in the forest doing animal things and living like nature intended them to. That to me is what matters most.

 

So you don't agree with animals being raised on farms for slaughter? Because that is 95% of the meat you are eating you know. It would be totally impractical to try to feed the world off hunting wild animals. Also, you can easily take down a big game animal with one shot. Its all about the caliber of the bullet you choose. You aren't going to go hunting moose with a .22 because it won't do a thing to something as big and powerful as a moose. Your going to go out with something like a .308 or .338, which has more than enough stopping power to take down a moose. You aim for the money shot, which is an area right behind the front leg that it will pierce all the major organs and kill it very quickly. Head shots are totally impractical. They are very hard to hit, and theres a good chance you'll miss altogether or end up grazing it and taking the animal's face off while not killing it. Trust me, I've seen a deer with half its face blown off but it was still alive and it was a nasty, sad sight. 

[Aditus]

It might be impossible to fathom for some, but you don't feed the world with meat, but rice, corn etc. To make it simple: Plants. Meat is a luxury many people/countries can't afford, e.g. a country like India has a meat consumption of ~5 kg per person per year.( Source: Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), FAOSTAT on-line statistical service (FAO, Rome, 2004). Available online at: http://apps.fao.org) We could actually feed the world with game and animals grown on farms, where the animals eat what they would normally eat if they were outside. The world just had to eat less, or none at all.

[Zombie]

It might be impossible to fathom for some, but you don't feed the world with meat, but rice, corn etc. To make it simple: Plants. Meat is a luxury many people/countries can't afford, e.g. a country like India has a meat consumption of ~5 kg per person per year.( Source: Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), FAOSTAT on-line statistical service (FAO, Rome, 2004). Available online at: http://apps.fao.org) We could actually feed the world with game and animals grown on farms, where the animals eat what they would normally eat if they were outside. The world just had to eat less, or none at all.

 

Good point. And of course what's happening with the traditional diet of countries like India and China is that as they embrace Western lifestyles so they also embrace Western diet - high meat - which in turn requires all the extra resources [land, feed, transport infrastructure etc] to meet that new demand.

 

lots of Halal butchers anaesthetise the animals before they kill them. They're awake, but they don't feel pain, and they die very, very quickly when it's actually done according to the proper rules of Halal butchery, as you're meant to sever the arteries and the wind pipe in one quick cut.

 

"Lots" conveys no factual information. I eat "lots" of fruit. But that is meaningless to anyone else.

 

That aside, this Halal website states clearly that animals cannot be anaesthetised

 

"The animal must not be anaesthetised, stunned to be killed or otherwise rendered wholly insensible prior to slaughter. It must be conscious and alive when it is slaughtered."

 

http://www.eat-halal.com/slaughter-procedures-employed-halal-food-authority/

 

Also, conventional abattoirs are subject to government inspection to ensure regulations are met but I don't know how these are applied to Halal meat production.

[Fishwings]

 

 

Zombie why are you joining in on this conversation. Don't you live off on human brains? :0

[Zombie]

Zombie why are you joining in on this conversation. Don't you live off on human brains? :0

I'm conflicted

 

:funny:

[Slytherin]

:funny:

Poor Little Zombie  

[Sasha Distan]

Sasha's lesson has larger ramifications. It's not just: Can you live with killing and butchering animals for meat?

 

Where does anything come from? Is it endangered? Does harvesting it deplete something? Can and should it be managed? If we pave this area, will it prevent the aquifer from recharging adequately?

 

The interconnectedness of life and stuff is difficult to teach as a whole.

 

Tell me about it. i tend to take the bright year 11's on higher level conversations like that, anything else is just incredibly hard.

 

 

Kudos to helping your kids see both sides of the issue. As for me, I'm a total carnivore. My only rule is, if you kill it, eat it or make sure it gets eaten. Waste not, want not.

 

thanks bud. And absolutely. Nothing is wasted, never.

 

 

 The world just had to eat less, or none at all.

 

We do not live on a planet designed to sustain 7 billion people. therein lies the route of most major global issues.

[hh5]

thats why I said "lol, teach them the logan's run theory lol"

we kull the human race 

We do not live on a planet designed to sustain 7 billion people. therein lies the route of most major global issues.

[Thorn Wilde]

So you don't agree with animals being raised on farms for slaughter? Because that is 95% of the meat you are eating you know. It would be totally impractical to try to feed the world off hunting wild animals.

 

That's not what I said. I have no problem eating farmed animals. But I would prefer to eat farmed animals who spend their summers outdoors eating grass (or whatever is natural for them to eat) rather than live in a 'factory' never seeing the sunlight. Meat branded as ecological/organic in my country generally comes from the former. Organic eggs also tend to come from chickens who get to be outside. Unfortunately, I can't afford to eat only that kind of meat, but I hope one day to be able to. It bothers me to eat 'regular' meat, but I can't function as a vegetarian, my body needs animal protein, so I make the best of things that I can.

 

"The animal must not be anaesthetised, stunned to be killed or otherwise rendered wholly insensible prior to slaughter. It must be conscious and alive when it is slaughtered."

 

Italics are mine. It says that they must not be anaesthetised to be rendered wholly insensible. They have to be awake. But they can be anaesthetised locally, so they don't feel any pain. Part of the halal rules is also that the animal must not smell blood or see another animal killed before it goes to slaughter. As such, it's generally put through very little stress before it dies. In my country, they have to be anaesthetised, because that's the law. Kosher butchery is not allowed here, because they're not allowed to even apply local anaesthesia. Halal butchers are allowed to, and I'd be very surprised if most in the UK didn't do so as well. It makes for a cleaner kill and less pain or stress for the animal, which is what Halal butchery is all about.

[Celethiel]

I have worked in a butcher shop, and as a child I watched my family kill and prepare food... including putting Deer in the bathtubs, leaving the animal's head's (and i don't mean just the skulls) and skins in the yard...

I believe in this world you do what you have to... to survive...

The ancients did it themselves as late as the 1800s unless they themselves lived in towns and cities and could afford to go the the butcher.

There are still family's suppliment their food stock with hunted animals... why... because it's cheaper.

In point of Fact Grains and other vegitables in Europe usually didn't last out the winter months of the year, nor could they grow them all year around like our farmers grow wheat...

In fact it got me to thinking about what would happen if we couldn't grow grains all year around in the north any more...

I may add working in a butcher shop disturbs me, as does handling squishy meat... both for different reasons...

As a child I made myself care about the dead animals in our yard, and i never lost that caring....

HOWEVER If I had to choose between the two, i'd rather not pick a side...

simply because you are taking out nutrients your body needs if you just pick one side or another.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Celethiel