Flux

[scotchirish87]

I'm usually a fan of Will's, but frankly I was hoping he'd step out of the limo with a busted lip or a black eye. He needs to be taken down a peg or fifty. Not that I'm actually advocating violence, but he was just such an obnoxious little shit.

Edited March 28, 2014 by scotchirish87

[B1ue]

Nah, that'd only convince him he was right. What I wanted was for Wade or Brad to calmly tell him, "I know you feel strongly about this. I can see why you do. But, frankly, it is none of your business what we do."

 

Not that it was ever a likely response. Calmly disengaging Will, letting him know via tone and language that his opinion did not matter, would be a body blow to him. The implication that his loss of respect ultimately did not matter, coming from these two, would be worse.

 

However much I want Will to just relax and let someone else attempt to be a moral compass for a while, I don't think it would have been an in-character move for any of them. Because to Wade and Brad, Will's opinion does matter. It matters because Will sees things in a black and white, right and wrong manner. He's not always logical, and he does things himself that he'd never tolerate out of anyone else, but he does correctly assess when other characters aren't acting in a manner they'd be proud to admit to later.

 

Although I'm a little worried that he went straight from "You two suck" to "I'm going to climb all over Matt, and you two can't stop me." Not surprised, it is Will, but worried, mostly because I don't know that Matt can handle that when he has so much of his current guilt wrapped up with his taste for casual sex.

[Daddydavek]

Nah, that'd only convince him he was right. What I wanted was for Wade or Brad to calmly tell him, "I know you feel strongly about this. I can see why you do. But, frankly, it is none of your business what we do."

 

Not that it was ever a likely response. Calmly disengaging Will, letting him know via tone and language that his opinion did not matter, would be a body blow to him. The implication that his loss of respect ultimately did not matter, coming from these two, would be worse.

 

However much I want Will to just relax and let someone else attempt to be a moral compass for a while, I don't think it would have been an in-character move for any of them. Because to Wade and Brad, Will's opinion does matter. It matters because Will sees things in a black and white, right and wrong manner. He's not always logical, and he does things himself that he'd never tolerate out of anyone else, but he does correctly assess when other characters aren't acting in a manner they'd be proud to admit to later.

 

Although I'm a little worried that he went straight from "You two suck" to "I'm going to climb all over Matt, and you two can't stop me." Not surprised, it is Will, but worried, mostly because I don't know that Matt can handle that when he has so much of his current guilt wrapped up with his taste for casual sex.

 

The last paragraph makes an excellent point.  And now with Matt laid-up and who knows yet how seriously he really was hurt, I suspect their little overseas jaunt may be in jeopardy as well.  And finally,  while I don't think Zach expects Will to be exclusive with him, Zach may also have a problem with Will getting it on with Matt........

[Mark Arbour]

Nah, that'd only convince him he was right. What I wanted was for Wade or Brad to calmly tell him, "I know you feel strongly about this. I can see why you do. But, frankly, it is none of your business what we do."

 

Not that it was ever a likely response. Calmly disengaging Will, letting him know via tone and language that his opinion did not matter, would be a body blow to him. The implication that his loss of respect ultimately did not matter, coming from these two, would be worse.

 

However much I want Will to just relax and let someone else attempt to be a moral compass for a while, I don't think it would have been an in-character move for any of them. Because to Wade and Brad, Will's opinion does matter. It matters because Will sees things in a black and white, right and wrong manner. He's not always logical, and he does things himself that he'd never tolerate out of anyone else, but he does correctly assess when other characters aren't acting in a manner they'd be proud to admit to later.

 

Although I'm a little worried that he went straight from "You two suck" to "I'm going to climb all over Matt, and you two can't stop me." Not surprised, it is Will, but worried, mostly because I don't know that Matt can handle that when he has so much of his current guilt wrapped up with his taste for casual sex.

 

I think that if they would have said "it's none of your business what we do," Will would have raised an eyebrow, shut down on them, and then had a long talk with JP and Stef.  That's a good reason for them to engage with Will instead. 

 

You mention the term "moral compass", which is apt here.  As I said in response to the reviews, Will is deriving his moral code internally, and from the influence of his family members, especially JP, Stef, Brad, and Wade.  When Brad breaks the rule he so vehemently argued for when he was young, and he does the same thing to Matt that he and Wade were outraged with Matt for doing to Will, it decays their moral authority, and his respect for them.  I think that's a reasonable response. 

 

That plays into what you addressed in your last paragraph.  I don't think Will's planning to run out and fuck Matt, or Cody, or Scott Slater, or Lou.  I think he was trying to lay it out to Wade and Brad that if they aren't going to play by the 'rules', he doesn't have to either, and those are the kinds of things he could feasibly do. 

Edited March 28, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[PrivateTim]

I will repost my review and revise and extend my remarks:

 

I am one very confused person.

Here is why people rag on Will and what makes Will an arrogant little prick. No one can tell Will anything. No one can make judgments about Will's love life. No one can invade Will's privacy. But apparently it is okay for Will to define for everyone else who they can and can not have sex with, it is okay for Will to invade and betray people's privacy and it is okay for Will to bully people to do what he wants. The fact that Will thinks it is the right thing to do (send Brad to his shrink) makes it even worse. it is the exact thing he blew up and ran away over, others deciding what was good for him.

It is a cute dramatic device to have him knock on the door, not get an answer and go for the skeleton key, but in reality could Brad and Wade have been so clueless as to not hear someone pounding on the door? And if Will wasn't pounding, what makes him think he has the right to enter someone's room before making the effort to do other things, like call on the phone or cell phone? Mark points out that they would have likely ignored the phone, but maybe not, a phone call first on the house phone and then on his cell might have broken the mood and convinced Brad that someone inside the house need him on something urgent. I think Will went too quickly from "no answer" to "I am breaking into your room".

I am further confused why Brad and Wade having sex is a big deal? Weren't Brad and Wade having sex when Matt and Wade were a couple? Hey I thought it was creepy having sex with your partner's son's partner, open relationship or not, but Wade and Matt didn't have a lot of parameters and Matt certainly had no room to complain about the two or three guys Wade chose vs the dozen(s) he did. Was there ever a point when Matt made Brad off limits to Wade? If not, why is it a big deal now that they are broken up? I mean, he may have been hurt because Wade was into Brad for more than just a fuck, but that was part of Matt's problem in not wanting to be exclusive. I actually see it very differently from Sam & Jake.

 

Someone in their review didn't see a big deal with Will talking to Ben. Remember how Will got up in Stef's face over telling Brad about the sex room? That was no great secret either, but Will flew off the handle at people about it. Will had zero right in talking to Ben about his father especially given his attitude about people getting in his business. Will needs to learn boundaries and as of right now he has no clue.

 

Lastly, and for the record, Will is not an adult. He is an emancipated minor which is not the same as being a legal adult. He gets certain rights and privileges, but having sex is not one of them. In the State of California it is illegal for two minors to have sex with each other. I can not say that there are a lot of prosecutions for it, but there have been ones.

Edited March 28, 2014 by PrivateTim

[Mark Arbour]

 

It is a cute dramatic device to have him knock on the door, not get an answer and go for the skeleton key, but in reality could Brad and Wade have been so clueless as to not hear someone pounding on the door? And if Will wasn't pounding, what makes him think he has the right to enter someone's room before making the effort to do other things, like call on the phone or cell phone? Mark points out that they would have likely ignored the phone, but maybe not, a phone call first on the house phone and then on his cell might have broken the mood and convinced Brad that someone inside the house need him on something urgent. I think Will went too quickly from "no answer" to "I am breaking into your room".

 

 

There are multiple ways to look at this whole issue, so I didn't quote your entire post, but I think it's important to point out that we really don't know how long Will tried to get their attention, or what efforts he made before he broke in.

 

Edited March 29, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[Timothy M.]

I don't really want to post in the CAP forums, because they scare me, but I guess I'll just run away after this  

 

Reply from Mark Arbour (author) (to my review of ch 8)

Actually, I think this situation damn near parallels the Matt/Tony and Jake/Sam deal. Will is probably thinking not just of his Dad and Wade, but of Matt, and how this will impact him. That's actually a pretty compassionate thing to do. And there's nothing that says that Wade and Brad couldn't become more significant partners.

Wade and Brad may have saved themselves, but they're going to hurt Matt really badly with this, and they've thrown the whole moral code they preached into the air. I think that warrants some outrage from Will, and I suspect that JP and Stef will be less-than-happy about it.

 

Well it’s Mark’s story and characters and Mark knows a lot more about what is going on than we do. So if he says (that Will is right) that the situation with Brad and Wade is just like the situation with Matt & Tony and Jake & Sam, I have to accept it. So let’s see:

We have Will who is young and infatuated (in love?) with this older guy Tony, who is deep in the closet / in denial about being gay, and treats Will like shit, but finally comes out and admits the gay part to Will’s family. Will, who by the way is traumatized by the loss of his mother and his stepfather, warns his brother Matt about fucking Tony, after Matt makes a joke about it. Matt is in a serious relationship (almost engaged to) this great guy Wade, who reluctantly has accepted that his boyfriend likes to fool around with other guys, but in this case warns him that having sex with Tony is a really bad idea. Matt (who is also in emotional turmoil from losing Robbie) decides that the warnings about doing Tony is a challenge he cannot resist, so he hooks up with him. After he is found out, he is really sorry, so he does his best to make amends and become a better person – no wait he moves in with Tony and keeps having sex with him now and then for the next six months, before finally coming to his senses. Will feels betrayed and Wade probably feels humiliated by Matt’s (and Tony’s) behavior.

 

Now substitute Will with Matt, Tony with Brad, and Matt with Wade, and Wade with Will and look at the situation in another way:

Wade is this young guy who is deeply in love with Matt, but so hurt and humiliated by his behavior that he decides to end his relationship with his boyfriend. Wade is also attracted to this older man Brad, who is not in the closet, not in a relationship (since his husband just died), and who genuinely cares about Wade. So they have sex and talk, helping each other cope with all the bad stuff in their lives. Brad fulfills the need of Wade to have someone support him and listen to him, and Wade stabilizes Brad who was in risk of going off the deep end from the loss of Robbie. Both of them worry about how their relationship would hurt people they love, mainly Will and Matt, so they manage to keep it secret for six months. Once they are discovered, they know they will have to end this and to do their best to make amends and heal the possible rifts in the family. Matt will feel betrayed and Will is furious about Wade’s and Brad’s behavior.

 

Yep I can really see the similarity of Matt’s decision to spite fuck Tony and Wade’s decision to become seriously involved with Brad. They both got a deep emotional need fulfilled and screwed up their commitments to each other and the CAP family at the same time.

 

Okay, now let’s explore the Sam / Jake angle:

Brad was this young guy who had just gotten his first boyfriend and brought Jake home and along on a family trip. Sam, a much older man who was in a long term relationship with JP, the head of the family, let himself be seduced by Jake who turned out to be a slut who liked to have sex with other people’s partners. So naturally Brad was devastated to be betrayed both by the boy he was in love with and even more by someone from his own family. He also wished he’d never even met Jake, because then Robbie would have been his first love. Later he was furious that Matt did a similar betrayal of his son Will by fucking Tony. Mainly because this time the family did not rally behind Will as they had done with Brad (Sam got thrown out of the family, but Matt didn’t – though there were good reasons for that, which Brad knew and accepted.)

 

Now substitute Sam with Brad, Brad with Matt, and Jake with Wade and look at the situation in another way:

Matt is this young guy who has a boyfriend, Wade, and has brought him into the family of his biological father, Robbie. They are together for a long time, and at one point Wade has sex with Brad who is older and in a committed relationship with Robbie. At the same time Matt also has sex with other guys, including Carl who like Brad is a threat to Matt’s and Wade’s relationship. The couple manages to work out their problems, including why Wade was attracted to Brad and how Matt can give Wade what he needs (a man who can take charge and make him feel secure). The fact that Brad is sort of related to Matt is not such a big deal (as far as I recall), since Matt himself had sex with JP and Stef, and would probably have happily done it again after he found out who they were (but JP was wise enough to resist the temptation for Robbie’s sake). Anyway, later Wade broke up with Matt and he was so determined not to be with him again, that he started having sex with Brad, who could give him what he needed, even if it might be only temporarily. Apart from the sex they also bonded emotionally.

 

Yep I can really see the similarity of Sam and Jake rutting in the woods shortly after having met, and Sam going on to cheat on his wife with the slutty Jake, and Brad’s decision to become seriously involved with Wade. They all got a deep emotional need fulfilled and screwed up their commitments to their partners (who had left them either physically or mentally) and the CAP family at the same time.

 

On the current issue Mark made a point that I found crucial (in a comment to another ch 8 review):

 

Reply from Mark Arbour (author)

Brad is going to feel way too guilty about this to have blazing guns. It's not about "support nookie", it's about Brad playing by different rules. When he brought a guy home, and Sam fucked him, Brad went ballistic (Be Rad) and basically established the rule that it was not OK for other family members to poach guys away from another family member. And keep in mind that in this family, 'blood relation' is no requirement for membership. Will bought into this concept, which is why he was so pissed off at Matt. So suddenly it's OK for Brad to change the rules and bang Matt's ex-boyfriend?

At the same time, as I noted, you could see him mellowing in the limo when he realized that this was an important relationship for both Brad and Wade. But, one might ask, could they not have had a supportive relationship without fucking? (my italics)

 

So why did Matt/Tony and Wade/Brad include sex? Couldn’t they have had just as deep a relationship without sex ? Well, we don’t know whether Matt and Tony had long talks (but Tony didn’t exactly cuddle or do pillow talk with Will after sex  ) or cared for each other, but maybe they did help each other by being roommates for six months. And I guess Brad and Wade should have known better than to fuck, but the CAP family does tend to express their attachments via sex. But I agree that the sex was probably a bad idea and they knew it was wrong but still kept doing it (or at least Brad and Wade admitted to feeling bad).

 

However, I think the real danger for a possible future of Matt and Wade as a couple (which I certainly hope for) and for a major rift in the CAP family wouldn't be the sex between Wade and Brad, but the risk of Brad and Wade falling in love and coming out as boyfriends. And if they had decided that sex would only happen if they became a committed couple that would increase the chance. With the sex being part of their temporary relationship while they were both in between partners, it becomes less of a risk. They would have parted, Matt would have grown up, Wade would tell him about being with Brad, when they started going out again after college. If Matt couldn’t forgive him that – same as Wade had to forgive Matt for Carl, Tony, etc. – well at least they were removed from the situation and Matt would be in a more stable frame of mind by then. And not injured and in the hospital which is a place he hates.  

 

Instead we’ll get lots of drama NOW – but then that’s what drives the CAP stories, so fine with me. And I have no problem with Will being right about why Brad and Wade being together is a huge issue - after all I'm fascinated by vulcanoes.  

[Daddydavek]

 

 

Instead we’ll get lots of drama NOW – but then that’s what drives the CAP stories, so fine with me. And I have no problem with Will being right about why Brad and Wade being together is a huge issue - after all I'm fascinated by vulcanoes.  

 

I think most of the CAP fans are fascinated by volcanoes.  

[PrivateTim]

There are multiple ways to look at this whole issue, so I didn't quote your entire post, but I think it's important to point out that we really don't know how long Will tried to get their attention, or what efforts he made before he broke in.

 

I dunno, this author is pretty detail oriented, you might even say anal , and the scene didn't seem that long. We'd also have to believe that Will is noted for his patience. But be that as it may, I still don't think that gives him a right to enter his father's bedroom except in the most dire of emergencies (the house is on fire). Going to to tell JP he couldn't get an answer from Brad was exactly what he should have done, but again I am willing to accept that as plot  device to drive a storyline.

 

The point I did want to make and emphasize is the complete hypocrisy of Will. If his father entered his locked room the same way on the same explanation, Will would go ballistic.

 

Will also continues to think it is okay for him to tell others who they may and may not sleep with, but no one is entitled to even hint at anything about his choices or they risk his wrath.

 

And I am still not seeing ANY parallels with Jake and Sam. I mean, if you want to really put a fine point on it, when we first met Jake he was on a date with Claire, so shouldn't that have made Jake off limits to Brad? Even though Claire knew it when she invited Jake over, Brad didn't. And while Brad was schmoozing up Jake he was getting his prostate banged by Lark too. So Brad was the same hypocrite that Will is now.

 

There are no paragons of virtue in this story. Everyone has had their sordid little moments which is why the moral relativism falls flat with me and why when they try to come up with some moral code, it doesn't seem to last past inconvenience.

[methodwriter85]

I thought Matt being in the hospital was a pretty dire emergency. He might have been okay and stable and not in critical condition, but car crash injuries have a funny way of turning out to be worse than people think, and you just never know. (Remember the episode of Growing Pains where Carol's boyfriend Sandy dies after a car crash despite initially being okay because his internal injuries were worse than they thought? That does happen.) There's a reason why they have an observation period.

 

If it were Darius or JJ in the hospital, Will would have done the same exact thing, because I can't see a parent not wanting to drop everything and rush to the hospital for their kid. Brad may or may not see Matt as a son, but Will does see Matt as his brother now, and he gave him the brother treatment here.

[PrivateTim]

(Remember the episode of Growing Pains where.....

 

No. I don't remember a single thing about Growing Pains, Facts of Life or Family Ties......

[mmike1969]

No. I don't remember a single thing about Growing Pains, Facts of Life or Family Ties......

So you were more of a Silver Spoons kind of guy right?

[methodwriter85]

So you were more of a Silver Spoons kind of guy right?

 

    I'd never seen Silver Spoons until OnDemand ran them like 8 years ago...typical fun cheesy 80's sitcom. Jason Bateman was the great comic relief on the show. I knew Rick Schroder from his NYPD Blue days and 90's Lifetime Movie Days. He's one of those lucky child stars who seem to transition to adulthood relatively unscathed.

 

    Anyway, I kind of figured that if anything, PrivateTim would have to know Beverly Hills 90210. I mean, he basically lived a bisexual version of it, right?;-) West Bev's class of '93 would have been his peers, age-wise. I'm going to guess PrivateTim was the Brandon of his group.

Edited March 30, 2014 by methodwriter85

[GLH]

So you were more of a Silver Spoons kind of guy right?

 

<passes out trying to politely stifle a gutbusting laugh.>

[Mark Arbour]

So you were more of a Silver Spoons kind of guy right?

 

I would have guessed Fresh Prince of Belair.   

[Henson]

Hmm. Will's flamboyant, unflinching hypocrisy and ridiculously unwarranted sense of moral certitude remind me of every other gay man between the ages of 14-24 that I've ever met.

 

That age group is hilariously un-self aware and quick to judge.

[mmike1969]

Why I hate Matt (Disclaimer, my hate of Matt may change pending further reading of CAP) -->

 

1: I find it extremely hypocritical of Matt getting ticked off at Brad/Wade since Matt himself threw himself at Brad in Millennium, and let's not forget that every single time Brad inquired about Will's activity, it was Will himself that told Brad to F* off and that it was not his concern.

 

2: Matt wants to know why Wade was not willing to give Matt another chance? Well here's further proof that Matt himself is STILL not ready to grow up in a society where it is not acceptable to punch someone on the nose just because they slept with his EX-Boyfriend. This is Escorial and NOT the Jerry Springer Show!

 

3: Mary Ellen?

Yeah another sign of maturity on Matt's part.

 

4: It takes a real adult like Matt to yell at limo drivers

 

5:“Must have been the accident,” I said, daring him to call me a liar. Um, because you are?

Edited April 1, 2014 by mmike1969

[methodwriter85]

Why I hate Matt (Disclaimer, my hate of Matt may change pending further reading of CAP) -->

 

1: I find it extremely hypocritical of Matt getting ticked off at Brad/Wade since Matt himself threw himself at Brad in Millennium, and let's not forget that every single time Brad inquired about Will's activity, it was Will himself that told Brad to F* off and that it was not his concern. 

 

2: Matt wants to know why Wade was not willing to give Matt another chance?  Well here's further proof that Matt himself is not STILL not ready to grow up in a society where it is not acceptable to punch someone on the nose just because they slept with his EX-Boyfriend. This is Escorial and NOT the Jerry Springer Show!

 

3: Mary Ellen?

 Yeah another sign of maturity on Matt's part. 

 

4: It takes a real adult like Matt to yell at limo drivers

 

5:“Must have been the accident,” I said, daring him to call me a liar. Um, because you are?

 

     I feel like Matt reminds you of an ex-boyfriend, like Tony reminds Private Tim of his. LOL.

 

     I think I like that Matt has a very spoiled only child brat attitude. It makes total sense for his upbringing, and it's not like his frat boy college party boy lifestyle would have disabused him of that. Now he's off to grad school.This is where reality starts to hit him, and I'm interesting in seeing how he responds. If everybody were perfect with little need for emotional growth, it'd be one boring story.

Edited April 1, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

     I feel like Matt reminds you of an ex-boyfriend, like Tony reminds Private Tim of his. LOL.

 

     I think I like that Matt has a very spoiled only child brat attitude. It makes total sense for his upbringing, and it's not like his frat boy college party boy lifestyle would have disabused him of that. Now he's off to grad school.This is where reality starts to hit him, and I'm interesting in seeing how he responds. If everybody were perfect with little need for emotional growth, it'd be one boring story.

 

Good points by both of you.  Something else to consider is Matt's one huge advantage: his looks.  Now I'm not saying that the gay community overly values handsome faces and fit, taught bodies...oh wait, maybe that's exactly what I'm saying.  You can't tell me that a hot guy can't get away with more than an ugly one.  That's worked for Matt his entire life, and it still does.  It will until he gets old and fat. 

 

Wait...Tim dated "Tony"? 

Edited April 1, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[mmike1969]

Wait...Tim dated "Tony"?

I am sure he dated someone like Tony.

[methodwriter85]

  Right. In any event, grad school should be a pretty brutal awakening for Matt. Wade seems like he'll transition well, but I think it'll take Matt a couple of weeks to adjust.

[Westie]

Hmm. Will's flamboyant, unflinching hypocrisy and ridiculously unwarranted sense of moral certitude remind me of every other gay man between the ages of 14-24 that I've ever met.

 

That age group is hilariously un-self aware and quick to judge.

 

Seems like 32-year-old's (according to your profile) might be quick to make sweeping generalisations....

[PrivateTim]

Wait...Tim dated "Tony"? 

 

I've known a lot of Tony's (guys who have issues with their sexuality) and I am bright enough to avoid relationships with them. I had no problem dating guys who needed discretion because I understood it, but they were guys who were not afraid of their sexuality, they accepted who they were, they were just not sure they could live openly either then or in the future but they weren't the self loathing "I hate you because you made me fuck you" Tony types.

 

I would make the same points that I made in my review:

 

Still confused, still not seeing the parallels in Wade/Brad and Matt/Tony. And for the record I find Brad/Wade creepy and I had no problem with Matt/Tony, but at least in Matt/Tony we had Will verbalizing he didn't want Matt to go there (which I found really hypocritical of Will "don't tell me who to sleep with" Schluter). In Brad/Wade, it isn't the first time, Matt already knew about it and I don't recall Matt ever telling/asking Wade to not sleep with Brad. I remember him not liking it, but I don't call limitations being placed.

 

All that said, it is a fun chapter and will be even more fun when Wade becomes one of the fathers of his nephew, gotta love Crónicas De Un Depredador Académico

 

****

 

So am I wrong? Was there a time when Matt placed Brad off limits? I don't recall huge issues when Wade and Brad slept together the first times, why is it a big deal now?

[Westie]

And for the record I find Brad/Wade creepy

Ditto

[George Richard]

Right. In any event, grad school should be a pretty brutal awakening for Matt. Wade seems like he'll transition well, but I think it'll take Matt a couple of weeks to adjust.

Getting an MBA, even at a top school, has more in common with undergrad programs than most graduate degrees. At Chicago (my MBA is from there too) you take your 21 courses and get your diploma--no thesis or dissertation, no comprehensive exams. If I recall correctly, Matt majored in economics at Stanford and got decent grades. That's a highly ranked program, and along with interning at the family companies and leading the hockey team, should set him up to do well at Chicago.