[DomLuka] WT 9

[Ann]

I have to disagree with you here. You just have to go back to Ch. 5 and see how closeted Nelson is and how he reacted before his father calmed him down gives some indication thereof.

I don't know, but to me this appears to indicate someone who is not secure with their sexuality and who would probably lose sleep (a great deal) over his possible outing.

 

I agree that he seemed closeted in chapter 5, but I don't think it was so much about being gay than it was wanting to fit in. His solution to potentially being outed was to hide out and see how it all blew over. Remember, before Milo, there was no person Nels knew of in town who was gay. It's a little like uncharted territory for Heywell. I don't think Nels will willingly come out of the closet alone, but if he does end up out, I don't see him apologizing for it.

 

I loved this chapter! I

[GREEN]

Maybe this story could be about how Milo can change Nelson. How they can grow as better people in the wake of friendship, Love, Loyalty and Betrayal. I think we have much to see yet and I think of all of the stories Dom has written this one is certainly the story we can relate the most to. So lets not judge these characters just yet. Give it time, In Dom We Trust.

 

GREEN

[Keithing]

Thanks for the welcome, Kevin.

 

To add my two cents again, like I said in my earlier post, Nelson really depends on things being ideal or stable. Someone else quoted the first chapter and Nelson said he isn't anxious about being gay, or even being the only gay person around his age in Heywell (anyone else remember the "forty-year-old flamer who owned the bookstore"?). The thing that scares him is not having control over the situation like losing his friends if/when someone else outs him. I saw him as being both unreasonably jealous about Milo's date, as well as a bit scared that Teresa would spill the beans about their night together to anyone, and especially Milo. I found it suspicious that Dom made a point of Nelson pointing her out on sight and avoiding her. Nelson's slightly neurotic side seems to obsess to a point, then explodes, confronting Milo about being gay and beating Teresa to the punch to tell Milo first (if she was even going to) for example.

 

I have a feeling that if there's a breach of trust, like people have been saying, Nelson will be the one worse for wear. Or maybe I'm just saying that because I'd like to see them getting down to the grittier side of things and hash out a solid relationship. He needs to save a few spoonfuls of ass-sunshine for the road, there's no way Dom's letting him get out of this one easily.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Ken R.

[AFriendlyFace]

I agree. I think everyone but Milo went back to dick-dom in this chapter. What a bunch of disagreeable jerks, and Nelson is leading the herd. This guy doesn't have a compassionate bone in his body. Everything, and I mean every single thing, is about him. He doesn't take into consideration what anyone else wants. He's a self-centered little shit. Milo is the only one with any sense of compassion, and he's really just scared.

I mostly agree with that except I don't think Milo is any more compassionate than Nels. They both have their moments, and Nels does exhibit signs of caring about people.

 

One terribly insecure guy, one pretty nice guy, one hateful shit. It was that way in TOU and DD (in both cases the hateful guy was slightly redeemed in the last chapter), less so in TLW (Taylor wasn't all that bad).

I think you mixed up The Log Way and The Ordinary Us. Taylor was in TOU, and I wouldn't have thought him an antagonist at all, Quinn was his own biggest antagonist. True Quinn did have some conflict with Taylor but I'd say mom, Brad, Mr. Jones (or the bad counselor if I'm mixing them up), and even Jude caused him more trouble than Taylor did.

 

I was just wondering, there's all this talk of Nels not acting like a 'deeply' closeted guy but um...Dom never said he was

Anywho, I don't think Nelson is deeply closeted at all ... he just isn't ready to come out to his friends yet, but I don't think he's petrified of it like Milo (or Quinn) ... I think he figures it will happen at some point, but isn't going to lose too much sleep over it.

I agree with Ben and David. There's quite a few different levels of "closetness" and I don't think Nels is in that far.

 

I have to disagree with you here. You just have to go back to Ch. 5 and see how closeted Nelson is and how he reacted before his father calmed him down gives some indication thereof.

I don't know, but to me this appears to indicate someone who is not secure with their sexuality and who would probably lose sleep (a great deal) over his possible outing.

I agree that he seemed closeted in chapter 5, but I don't think it was so much about being gay than it was wanting to fit in. His solution to potentially being outed was to hide out and see how it all blew over. Remember, before Milo, there was no person Nels knew of in town who was gay. It's a little like uncharted territory for Heywell. I don't think Nels will willingly come out of the closet alone, but if he does end up out, I don't see him apologizing for it.

I agree with Ann's explanation. Nels definitely doesn't seem to have issues with his sexuality itself. He doesn't feel worthless, ashamed, or like a freak; his concern is how OTHER people will accept it. Thus he's perfectly able to express it and talk about it with people who ARE accepting of it (himself, family, Leanna, and now Milo). The fact that he told Milo is another indication that he's not all that "deep" into the closet. He thought Milo would be okay with it, so he told him (and of course he had an ulterior motive ).

 

I agree he doesn't act like a big closet case, but again I'd say that's because he isn't. He's a little closet case . He's outgoing and friendly, and he's got the perfect "cover" in Haily (not to mention Teresa if that got around school), so I don't think many people are that likely to really sit down and try to figure it out (which they probably could do if they tried). Now Brandon I'm guessing has, but I think that's because he's interested so like Nels with Milo, he has an ulterior motive and special interest too.

 

The thing that scares him is not having control over the situation like losing his friends if/when someone else outs him.

Yes I think that's a major part of it too!

He needs to save a few spoonfuls of ass-sunshine for the road, there's no way Dom's letting him get out of this one easily.

[TalonRider]

I think Milo is starting to show that he is starting to become comfortable being around Nel's, but maybe not his friends just yet. Altho he is trying. For Milo to take Nel's home with him and take care of him shows he does care. Not a lot of people would take the time.

 

Nelson is going to have to make the effort with Jame as well. If he expects Milo to accept and be around his friends, then Nel's needs to the same for Milo.

[Innoce Ludo]

The confusion, the doubt, the being thrown around from one corner to another while i read it... i loved this chapter The only thing I didn't like was the excessive drinking. But then i don't drink at all so that's probably why it irks me. And I definitely thought that that Brandon fellow was giving off some innuendos. He's going to be trouble.

Oh and go Ronnie! A little bit too much revenge for me, but at least Caleb noticed something. Someone'll need to hit him on the head with a frying pan before he ever realises he loves the girl, but progress is progress...

[TheJuggler]

I have a feeling Nelson is going to be making a little slip-up, and lose Milo's trust:

 

 

I can't believe noone noticed your brilliant, unintentional pun...

 

And I definitely thought that that Brandon fellow was giving off some innuendos. He's going to be trouble.

 

I agree. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Brandon and Nels are going to wind up in bed (or out of bed) together, both of them drunk and probably drugged up. This is going to be a horror story for Nels afterward, when he realizes what he's done to Milo.

[dkstories]

I can't believe noone noticed your brilliant, unintentional pun...

I agree. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Brandon and Nels are going to wind up in bed (or out of bed) together, both of them drunk and probably drugged up. This is going to be a horror story for Nels afterward, when he realizes what he's done to Milo.

 

Or nels realizes the cute football player is much more fun than Milo and dumps Milo, only to be dumped by Brandon in return when Brandon sees another cute guy...

[CoLeYy]

I think for some odd reason that assface is some what not completely straight ... or something is going to happen with milo and assface .. something on the lines of cheating?

 

Nels does do some crazy things .. he doesnt seem as if hes in the "closet" but could it be that he really likes milo so he could care less on what other people think .. and poor haily is getting mixed signals left and right ..

[C James]

I was just wondering, there's all this talk of Nels not acting like a 'deeply' closeted guy but um...Dom never said he was, he's out to his family, whether he wanted to be at first or not is irrelevant. He seems to me to be pretty comfortable in his sexuality, but just doesn't want to be out at school.

 

As someone else pointed out, in Chapter 5 it's fairly clear that Nelson has a serious fear of being outed. Just my opinion...

 

BTW, I'm NOT saying that Dom wrote Nelson badly. I'm just saying that some of Nelson's actions don't seem to be in sync with other aspects of his personality and situation. However, I've seen even greater incongruities in real people.

[TheJuggler]

Or nels realizes the cute football player is much more fun than Milo and dumps Milo, only to be dumped by Brandon in return when Brandon sees another cute guy...

 

Nels isn't going to dump Milo. He's in looooove. ;-)

[Matthew]

The only thing I didn't like was the excessive drinking. But then i don't drink at all so that's probably why it irks me. And I definitely thought that that Brandon fellow was giving off some innuendos. He's going to be trouble.

I agree. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Brandon and Nels are going to wind up in bed (or out of bed) together, both of them drunk and probably drugged up. This is going to be a horror story for Nels afterward, when he realizes what he's done to Milo.

I completely agree with the alcohol thing, I'm in college and just reading about it makes me uncomfortable. What's the point? And then this:

[TheJuggler]

I completely agree with the alcohol thing, I'm in college and just reading about it makes me uncomfortable. What's the point? And then this:

 

Really bothered me. Why get drunk? I really don't get it.

 

I could see Nelson getting drunk and sleeping with Brandon, and Milo getting revenge, but I think this would be a girl. I think Jame is too into Hailey to be gay.

 

But drunk people break up relationships doing stupid things.

 

Yeah, I don't like the alcohol risk in the story. Definitely fodder for relationship upsets.

 

I think Nels drinks for the same reason alot of other teenagers and college age guys drink. No big mystery or hidden story there.

 

And yes, drunk people do stupid things. I doubt Nels would dump Milo even then, although he might do something stupid enough while drunk (like letting Brandon into his pants) to cause a breakup-like situation.

[notTed]

I think Milo is a more nuanced, multi-layered character than we recognize. Let us not forget that we are viewing this story thru Nelson's eyes, not those of the omniscient narrator. Just as in DD w/Rory, what the narrator percieves is not necessarily accurate.

 

Milo is mature beyond his years in a variety of ways. Note that he made a pretty major decision, to transfer schools, because he wanted more than he was getting at Stratford. He has to deal with the complexity of his relationship w/his father, the stepbitch to be, Juanita, (and the goat?). There is also his relationship w/his mom and having to come to terms w/her limited presence in his life. I think these are issues that he is coping w/pretty bravely and maturely. I also like his passion about his painting. By the same token, he is immature in his coming to terms w/his sexuality. Actually, these varying degrees of maturity are characteristic of teens, further demonstrating Dom's talents.

 

Another aspect of the Nels POV to the story is that we get a skewed view of Nels himself. He views himself as being a pale shadow of "that nice Chad fellow" who is/was always doing nice things for other people. He expresses no resentment or other distress at that, it is just that Chad apparently blazed a remarkable trail before Nels, one that he doesn't seem particularly interested in emulating, which is fine. He is his own person. I don't think, however, that Nels realizes his own qualities or specialness. Note the degree to which he inspires loyalty in Caleb, Hailey, and Joe. Note also Joe's comments about Nels when they were wasted together in the car. Note Milo's fascination w/Nels. I think Nels is a bit of a "force of nature" with a radiant cheerfulness, spontaneity, and friendliness to all (except Assface!) who brightens up everyone around him wherever he goes. He is very social, on agreeable terms with all the different groups w/n the school, from the jocks to the partiers to the nerds, etc. Nels is a gem and doesn't know it. Milo does, Caleb does, Hailey does, even Joe does. I think that is why, when he comes out, he is going to be okay, because he will have such a reservior of affection and goodwill that people will shrug off the fact that he is gay. After all, he is still Nelson, and he still lights up a room when he walks into it.

[Matthew]

Yeah, I don't like the alcohol risk in the story. Definitely fodder for relationship upsets.

 

I think Nels drinks for the same reason alot of other teenagers and college age guys drink. No big mystery or hidden story there.

 

And yes, drunk people do stupid things. I doubt Nels would dump Milo even then, although he might do something stupid enough while drunk (like letting Brandon into his pants) to cause a breakup-like situation.

 

That's the thing though, I don't get why anybody does it. It is a mystery to me.

 

That's my major point. Nels wouldn't break up with Milo, he's going to do something stupid while he's drunk that's going to cause issues.

[Drewbie]

Well some people just don't get why people drinking. I know people who drink and some who get drunk and they don't do stupid stuff, it's quite relaxing to drink like wine or another bevage on a friday.

[Drewbie]

I wonder why Jame turned out like he only likes a few people and like an asshole to every one else.

Edited April 1, 2006 by Drew

[Lucy Kemnitzer]

Nelson starts out by saying "I used to be a good boy," but he also makes it clear that he and his friends have been behaving like this for a long time now and this is just the first time they've gotten into enough of a mess for anyone to notice. I thought it was strange that his parents weren't more upset, actually -- not that I needed them to punish Nelson (I've never punished my kids, either) -- but that they might say something fairly strong about all that mess. So I have his folks pegged as the "seem easy-going and warm, but actually kind of not engaged" type.

 

So Milo has good reasons to be concerned about Nelson -- Nelson may be cute and cheerful and he may have a healthy admiration for Milo, but the way he drinks and carries on with his friends, and backs up Caleb with hisidiotic vendetta against Jame, he's a bundle of trouble.

 

It's interesting how Nelson starts out seeming like the more centered of the two, and Milo is revealing himself to be that one -- anxious, maybe, but also maybe not more than he has reason for.

 

I think also maybe Nelson "protests too much" about not caring that he's not so cool as Chad -- that maybe he fears that he really doesn't have it in him to be as much of a mensch as his brother, and so he works at keeping things light. Though you can see in remarks about his friends how much he values those aspects of them that are most like the picture we get of Chad -- loyal, tender towards children, helpful . . .

 

but he just accepts the cliquiness and cruelty of his friends, and supports them in their bad behavior. And he doesn't trust them enough to come out to them -- though they've been his freinds forever. What does that say about what he really thinks of them?

 

He's a mess. Adorable, but a mess. Which is why there's a story.

[Gearoid]

[ Adorable, but a mess. Which is why there's a story.

 

Aeons ago our course year once got a lecture on the aesthetic impact of serialisation on a novel. But I was young (and mostly drunk ) and didn't listen. Shame because it might have helped me now to say what I feel about this story. I think it is like watching fire crackers going off; there are so many plotlines appearing and disappearing. The Brandon thing is a good example. I am like so into Milo and Nelson that I was screaming "Fick off you slut!" at Brandon . But then a quickie with Brandon would have been a diverting bit of filth, smut and happiness, would it not?

 

 

Then Nelson's near coming out to Joe is another. And Joe's moodiness. Does he have a thing for Officer T.? :wacko:

 

The drama centres around coming out, does it not? Milo's is the harder path, undoubtedly and that is why I forgive him for being rich. Nelson too has to grow, to overcome his fears and also to recognize who and what true friends are.

 

 

Having said that I cannot understand why anyone thinks that Milo and Nelson are somehow in poor taste. I think they are great and the care that Milo lavished on Nelson when he was drunk was so moving. And the way they acknowledged their relationship was so right in that it was beyond words, which is what true love is despite all the endless millions of words poured over it.

 

I grant of course that they are of course at times self-centred and immature - not like us at all at all .

 

But back to my original point about serialisation etc. Dom has said that this is going to be a fairly short story. Perhaps. But the endless series of potential plot lines that keep blinking into life in this story have made me think he is breeding and brooding over the production of an epic - unconsciously perhaps but I am becoming convinced that there is a big work wanting to be born. Maybe it will turn out to be a gay saga like Sea Change, but hopefully without the endless bonking.

 

Gearoid

[AFriendlyFace]

That's the thing though, I don't get why anybody does it. It is a mystery to me.

Well not to glamorize it and indeed I'm always pleased to hear about people who don't drink at all, but when you're drunk (if you're a happy sort of drunk) everything's funny, you're completely relaxed, and everyone's your best friend.

 

But of course you can get yourself into quite a bit of trouble too, it's an extremely unhealthy way to handle your psychologlical/emotional distress, and getting drunk all the time definitely wreaks havoc on your body. Besides that if something's bothering you, or you're not a "happy drunk" you may indeed just end up making yourself (and everyone else) more miserable.

 

I thought it was strange that his parents weren't more upset, actually -- not that I needed them to punish Nelson (I've never punished my kids, either) -- but that they might say something fairly strong about all that mess. So I have his folks pegged as the "seem easy-going and warm, but actually kind of not engaged" type.

I agree, Lucy! I know I'd be a nervous wreck and they would not hear the end of it if my kids stayed out all night without calling to tell me where they were and that they were okay.

 

It's interesting how Nelson starts out seeming like the more centered of the two, and Milo is revealing himself to be that one -- anxious, maybe, but also maybe not more than he has reason for.

This is indeed interesting. Is it possible that this is because Dom doesn't like to write "perfect" main characters? I mean it would have been fascinating to see this story entirely through the lens of Nels having everything together and helping Milo deal with his stuff, like Seth and Jude did for Rory and Quinn. But Saint Seth and the Angel Jude or conspicuously absent from this story (unless perhaps Chad and Leanna count).

Edited April 2, 2006 by AFriendlyFace

[c.a.]

Someone said that Milo has made more sacrifices than Nelson. I have to disagree with that. Nelson has put his friendships under a lot of strain just by trying to hang out with Milo. And he's been the one to swallow his pride many times when Milo has dissed him. Nelson is constantly on an emotional see-saw with Milo.

 

And fortunately Milo has seemed to wisen up a little in this chapter (so has Nelson), but I have a feeling that if Milo loses his head again (anybody remember "sick f**k"?) then Brad is probably going be the one with Nelson.

 

Speaking of Brad, man, Nelson you better tap that! He was basically trying to get closer to Nelson the entire party: he paints his face, doesn't care if his date leaves, he invites Nelson up to his room alone, and practically insists that Nelson stay at his place even going so far as telling Nelson's friends to leave without him.

 

I think he maybe even pushier than Nelson.

 

However, when I first read the chapter I thought he was trying to take advantage of poor drunk Nelson, but then I reread it and saw:

His [brandon] breath was thick with the scent of marijuana and alcohol, and being so close his blue eyes looked almost black.

 

So he was probably drunk/high too. Probably not as messed up as Nelson, but still.

 

Anyways, James is a prick. But a rather sad pathetic prick I feel kinda bad for. I mean, how low does somebody's self esteem has to be that they go out with a girl fully knowing she's just using them to make another guy jealous?

 

He probably sees Milo and Nelson's "friendship" as a threat of Caleb's crew stealing one of the few friend he has.

 

And wow. I didn't mean to write so much.

[dkstories]

Why do people drink/do drugs?

 

"I feel like I'm a different person, like all that crap doesn't bother me anymore."

 

"I feel...special."

 

"I'm not afraid to do things I'd never do otherwise."

 

"I'm bored."

 

The list could go on and on...for each and ever person the reason why or why not will be different...

[NickolasJames8]

Milo's about to be outed. I have a feeling about it. That's when he's going to have to turn to his support group, Joe and the Goat, along with his family. But I know he'll be ok

[Matthew]

Milo's about to be outed. I have a feeling about it. That's when he's going to have to turn to his support group, Joe and the Goat, along with his family. But I know he'll be ok

 

Milo or Nelson? I hardly think Joe would be supportive to Milo in any circumstance.

[NickolasJames8]

Milo or Nelson? I hardly think Joe would be supportive to Milo in any circumstance.

You're right...I meant Nelson, not Milo...btw, I like your sigi .......You've almost accepted reality 100%