[Grammar] Punctuation - The great "comma and" debate

[miguelsanchez55]

Talon,

One of my biggest pet peeves is when authors write huge sentences and then add a comma before the word and. Both my english and creative writing professors would have a field day with their red pens.

 

Could this topic be discussed at greater length?

 

:sword:

[TalonRider]

Talon,

One of my biggest pet peeves is when authors write huge sentences and then add a comma before the word and. Both my english and creative writing professors would have a field day with their red pens.

 

Could this topic be discussed at greater length?

 

:sword:

Hey Miguel,

 

One of the future topics to be brought up is Punctuation and there is a sizable section on commas.

 

My original intent is to present the material in the order they are in in the source material I'm using which would put this information a few weeks away. It can be brought out sooner. I'm currently working on the punctuation section in word to make it easier to post. If I can get it it finished this weekend, I'll get it posted as the next topic for discussion.

 

Jan

[glomph]

One of my biggest pet peeves is when authors write huge sentences and then add a comma before the word and. Both my english and creative writing professors would have a field day with their red pens.

 

I wonder what they would say about a sentence that says something is "when."

 

As to the comma, could you give an example of what you mean? If "and" is connecting clauses, a comma should end the first clause. I think the term for the clauses is "coordinate," but I've forgotten a lot of grammar terminology over the years. I assume this is not the sort of thing to which you are referring.

[Menzoberranzen]

I wonder what they would say about a sentence that says something is "when."

 

As to the comma, could you give an example of what you mean? If "and" is connecting clauses, a comma should end the first clause. I think the term for the clauses is "coordinate," but I've forgotten a lot of grammar terminology over the years. I assume this is not the sort of thing to which you are referring.

 

A comma is not strictly necessary to end the first clause. By adding the conjunction 'and' to the sentence you are, by definition, finishing the first clause. I've always been taught that placing a comma before the word 'and' is merely a stylistic choice, and both forms are correct.

[glomph]

A comma is not strictly necessary to end the first clause. By adding the conjunction 'and' to the sentence you are, by definition, finishing the first clause. I've always been taught that placing a comma before the word 'and' is merely a stylistic choice, and both forms are correct.

 

I've never heard that, and I don't recall ever noticing it in practice.

 

Strunk and White just say

 

Place a comma before "and" or "but" introducing an independent clause.

 

with no ifs, ands, or buts.

 

When there is a list of items separated by commas, it is a stylistic option whether to place a comma before the "and." (One should just be consistent.) Different generations use different styles, and newspapers tend to use style manuals that omit the comma before "and."

 

Examples:

 

I went to the store to buy milk, eggs, and bread.

 

I went to the store to buy milk, eggs and bread.

 

 

Either is OK, but must be consistent with the rest of the usage.

 

[edited to correct a typo: "mile" for "milk" in the second example]

Edited April 21, 2007 by glomph

[Lugh]

OK I looked this one up in a couple grammar books I have laying around and this is what they ALL say:

 

Use a comma before a coordinating conjuction that introduces an independent clause.

 

These are right:

 

I am very good in Spanish and French.

 

I am very good in Spanish, and I'm good in French.

 

This is WRONG:

 

I am very good in Spanish, and in French.

 

With two SHORT independent clauses there are options:

 

WRONG: We went to the beach last summer, I learned to surf.

 

Three variations of RIGHT:

 

We went to the beach last summer. I learned to surf.

 

We went to the beach last summer; I learned to surf.

 

We went to the beach last summer, and I learned to surf.

 

 

 

Commas in a list: "It is okay to omit the last comma in a list. Most newspapers omit it, but many good writers use it. Take your pick, but be consistant and be aware of potential problems whe yo udo't use the final comma."

 

Example:

Did you mean:

 

I like peanut butter and jelly, macaroni and cheese and bananas covered with chocolate.

 

OR

 

I like peanut butter and jelly, macaroni and cheese, and bananas covered with chocolate.

 

Another thing to note is that you do not need a comma every time you see a conjunction. Nor do you need to use the comma before AND when only two things are listed.

[Jack Scribe]

Here's some comments from my friend and editor, Brad from Denver, concerning commas:

 

I just spent an hour or so reviewing the comma chapters in my old Century Handbook of Writing (1950 edition) and in Harcourt Brace's College Handbook (1990 edition).

 

The only rule that seems out of date in the older book is that, with exceptions, a comma should precede the final "and" in a series. That rule has softened with age

[TalonRider]

The information I have on Punctuation is now posted.

[sat8997]

Eh...I usually just stick commas in where they look the prettiest.

 

Sharon

[Graeme]

I have a bucket of commas that my editor removed from my early stories. He's now started dipping into it to put some back into my latest writings. Eventually, I'm sure I'll get the balance right, but it will take time. In the meantime, I just trust him.

[TalonRider]

My authors usually trust me when it comes to the comma.

 

Jan

[glomph]

I find commas mysteriously disappearing after states and years. No one told me that the rule changed, so I assume that people are just being sloppy.

 

Example:

 

We went to Roanoke, Virginia for the summer. On June 1, 2002 we went back there.

 

In my youth that was just plain wrong. If it's now OK, it still looks weird and confusing to me.

[Jack Scribe]

My authors usually trust me when it comes to the comma.

 

I get the impression that writers are not invited here. Sorry for the intrusion.

[TalonRider]

I get the impression that writers are not invited here. Sorry for the intrusion.

This workshop is open to all, Jack. So feel free to join in.

 

Jan

[Graeme]

I get the impression that writers are not invited here. Sorry for the intrusion.

This workshop is open to all, Jack. So feel free to join in.

 

Jan

While it might be open, we're not the centre of attention here....

 

Which is probably good for us

 

I enjoy these sorts of threads. I don't usually contribute, but I like to read them.

[TalonRider]

I guess I should try and clear some things up. Originally, this workshop was going to be for my team of editors in the editor/beta reader program. A suggestion came to the WST, from a writer, about doing this type of workshop and since it was already in the works to be done, we of the WST, decided to start it and open it to everyone.

 

As for the location of this forum, it was decided to place it in the Editor's Corner because of the low activity here. I was hoping for more participation from my team of editors than what I've seen so far.

 

Like Graeme, I too may not participate a lot, but I do like to come read and learn something new.

 

Hopefully, this helps clear up any confusion.

 

Jan

[shadowgod]

Resurrecting "the great 'comma and' debate"

 

I was glancing at the University of Perdue's Online Writing labs and found this reference to the comma and conundrum.

 

Use a comma to separate elements in a series. Although there is no set rule that requires a comma before the last item in a series, it seems to be a general academic convention to include it. The examples below demonstrate this trend.

 

On her vacation, Lisa visited Greece, Spain, and Italy.

In their speeches, many of the candidates promised to help protect the environment, bring about world peace, and end world hunger.

 

So while there is no rule that enforces the use of 'comma and' it seems to be the academically accepted to include it. So if your writing a paper and do not use it you may get dinged on grammar...

 

Steve

[C James]

Resurrecting "the great 'comma and' debate"

 

I was glancing at the University of Perdue's Online Writing labs and found this reference to the comma and conundrum.

So while there is no rule that enforces the use of 'comma and' it seems to be the academically accepted to include it. So if your writing a paper and do not use it you may get dinged on grammer...

 

Steve

 

I punctuate that way, but purely by chance. To me, it just looks and "sounds" more natural that way.

 

However, if someone did ding you on your grammar for not doing it that way, fight it; if there's no rule, they shouldn't be applying it as a rule when grading.

[Graeme]

So if your writing a paper and do not use it you may get dinged on grammer...

However, if someone did ding you on your grammar for not doing it that way, fight it; if there's no rule, they shouldn't be applying it as a rule when grading.

They can also ding you for spelling, so you should watch that, too

 

The reason for the comma is that occasionally you need it for clarity. Sometimes an item in the last can be the compound item A & B, but A and B could also legitimate individual items in the list. If the list concluded with "..., A and B" it is not clear if this is the compound A & B, or the individual items A and B.

 

An example I just found:

 

I dedicate this work to my parents, Marie Smith and God.

 

As you can see, there is confusion about if this statement is saying that their parents are Marie Smith and God, or if the work is dedicated to Marie Smith, God, and the person's parents. The use of the comma before the "and" would eliminate any misunderstanding.

 

If you sometimes need it for clarity, it is a good idea to use it that way consistently.

[shadowgod]

They can also ding you for spelling, so you should watch that, too

 

The reason for the comma is that occasionally you need it for clarity. Sometimes an item in the last can be the compound item A & B, but A and B could also legitimate individual items in the list. If the list concluded with "..., A and B" it is not clear if this is the compound A & B, or the individual items A and B.

 

An example I just found:

 

I dedicate this work to my parents, Marie Smith and God.

 

As you can see, there is confusion about if this statement is saying that their parents are Marie Smith and God, or if the work is dedicated to Marie Smith, God, and the person's parents. The use of the comma before the "and" would eliminate any misunderstanding.

 

If you sometimes need it for clarity, it is a good idea to use it that way consistently.

 

it light of current evidence I suggest we change grammar to Graemmar...

 

All in favor say I

 

[AFriendlyFace]

it light of current evidence I suggest we change grammar to Graemmar...

 

All in favor say I

 

HAHAHHA

 

As I'm sure I've stated in many other places, I'm a big fan of the "Oxford comma" and wouldn't dream of doing serial lists without it!

 

-Kevin

[Graeme]

it light of current evidence I suggest we change grammar to Graemmar...

 

All in favor say I

 

My editors would all vote "NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!!!", so that's the way I'm voting, too My grammar isn't that good, though hopefully it's getting better. I still have a large bucket of commas that my editor took out from my early stories, though he's recently started to use them because I've gone a little bit too far the other way....

[sungod]

Talon,

One of my biggest pet peeves is when authors write huge sentences and then add a comma before the word and. Both my english and creative writing professors would have a field day with their red pens.

 

Could this topic be discussed at greater length?

 

:sword:

 

Using a comma after the word preceding the word "and" is called the "Oxford comma" and is found acceptable by the leading guru of punctuation, Lynne Truss, in her book Eats, Shoots & Leaves. On page 84 (in the American paperback version), she discusses the Oxford Comma. Here's one of the things she says about it: "There are people who embrace the Oxford comma and people who don't, and I'll just say this: never get between these people when drink has been taken."

 

In general, there are two rules about using a comma after the word in a list that precedes the "and" -- a.k.a. the Oxford comma:

1. A comma must always precede the "and" when it's needed to prevent confusion.
   
2. A comma may always precede the "and" unless it will cause confusion.
   

sungod

[colinian]

Using a comma after the word preceding the word "and" is called the "Oxford comma" and is found acceptable by the leading guru of punctuation, Lynne Truss, in her book Eats, Shoots & Leaves. On page 84 (in the American paperback version), she discusses the Oxford Comma. Here's one of the things she says about it: "There are people who embrace the Oxford comma and people who don't, and I'll just say this: never get between these people when drink has been taken."

 

In general, there are two rules about using a comma after the word in a list that precedes the "and" -- a.k.a. the Oxford comma:

1. A comma must always precede the "and" when it's needed to prevent confusion.
   
2. A comma may always precede the "and" unless it will cause confusion.
   

sungod

 

I agree! The only thing I'd add is that rule #2 is the only one that's needed. I'm a firm believer in the Oxford comma. IMO, the word "and" doesn't include a built-in pause just before it's spoken or when it's being read.

 

I took Creative Writing every year starting in the 8th grade in intermediate school, then in high school in the 9th through 11th grades, and in a summer session class at our community college between 10th and 11th grades. I only had one CW teacher (in 9th grade) who expressed a dislike for the Oxford comma, though she grudgingly accepted it and wouldn't mark it wrong. She would highlight it with a yellow marker when she'd find it, however, just to be pedantic. My papers always came back looking like they'd been attacked by mustard.

 

Colin