The Next Generation

[Mark Arbour]

I'm way ahead of myself, considering that I'm kind of in a writing funk right now, but I have been thinking ahead to the next generation as seen in the "Man in Motion" thread. Here's what I'm thinking of doing. I'm thinking that JJ will turn out to be straight. Adam was joking about that, since he's a figure skater, and I'd have said the same thing, but it may be kind of nice to blow out the stereotype a bit. I think the card-carrying fag of the family will be Will.

 

I posted a poll on this and made it public so I can give people shit about how they answer the last question.

[KJames]

I'm way ahead of myself, considering that I'm kind of in a writing funk right now, but I have been thinking ahead to the next generation as seen in the "Man in Motion" thread. Here's what I'm thinking of doing. I'm thinking that JJ will turn out to be straight. Adam was joking about that, since he's a figure skater, and I'd have said the same thing, but it may be kind of nice to blow out the stereotype a bit. I think the card-carrying fag of the family will be Will.

 

I posted a poll on this and made it public so I can give people shit about how they answer the last question.

 

Kind of a baited poll, if you ask me...the three of them being raised by 2 gay guys and a lesbian? By the time they're old enough to fool around, they're going to be alright with the ideas.

[Westie]

I kinda like the idea of subverting the form a little - JJ's gotta be straight.

 

Will has the sort of faux arrogance, confidence and easy charm that we have seen time and time again thoughout the story, with Brad to some extent and with Matt in particular. I also see shades of Andre. I also think that Will is the one most like Brad, you see glimpses of a willful child, with a strong personality and possibly a temper. With this in mid, i'd like him to have something to be arrogant about, and so brad's considerable manhood would do well...

 

Either way, I think Mark is at his best when writing "coming of age" tales; my examples are Be Rad, MiM and bloodlines. I enjoyed the original CAP with the younger JP, much more than later ones with an older JP/Stefan. With his most recent story - the box - I'm enjoying the flashbacks (again a "coming of age") much more than the modern era scenes. Bearing this in mind, whatever Mark chooses to do - I'm sure will be spectacular.

 

I would however, be fascinated to see a strong leading character, with a developed sense of identity, who is comfortable with himself... but bisexual. I think often Bisexuals are portrayed as confused, who come down more often on one side more than another. I think an attempt to show someone occupying equally the middle ground would be an interesting angle, which is why I voted in Darius as a bisexual.

 

West

[sat8997]

I just love these polls. And this is probably the first one where I don't already know the answer.

[Tiger]

I happen to think JJ and Darius will be straight and that Will is gay and has a massive cock.

[methodwriter85]

I'm going with JJ being gay. And it's more than just the figure skating thing. He's a 13-year old boy with a hot blonde girl (Tiffany) as his skating coach? If he's a straight 13-year old boy, JJ should be painstakingly drooling over her. But JJ doesn't really seem to be expressing all that much of an interest in girls, and if I remember being 13 correctly, all the guys around me couldn't shut up about girls. Still, if you make him straight, that could be cool- but I would hope that it means you aren't going to relegate JJ to supporting-character status because he's straight. I think he's way too interesting as a character to not have him take lead at some point. He reminds me so much of what Stefan would have been like if he didn't have a traumatic childhood.

 

Gay does seem to be out with Darius, but bisexual could be interesting. Darius is seventeen now, so we should be getting a more concrete feel for what his sexuality is. Then again, he's right on the brink of college, and they say that's where a lot of experimenting happens.

 

Will does seem a lot like Brad, so I wouldn't be surprised if he is gay and does have that big dick. LOL. I do hope we get to know him some more at this point- it feels like you've definitely put in more about what Darius and JJ are like than you have with Will. If you intend on having Will take on a story at some point, we need to know more about him, I think. One of the things that I really loved about Be Rad is that Brad had been built up as a character in the previous two stories- we really got to know Brad as a child before we to know him as a teenager, and to me, that really elevated Brad as a character. We've gotten a lot of scenes with both Darius and JJ as children that hint at their character, but not nearly so much with Will. Just one scene with Stefan in If It Fits, if I remember correctly.

 

Question though- why isn't bisexual an option for either JJ or Will?

Edited April 29, 2010 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

Kind of a baited poll, if you ask me...the three of them being raised by 2 gay guys and a lesbian? By the time they're old enough to fool around, they're going to be alright with the ideas.

 

You're saying that being gay is caused by environment? That's a bit controversial.

 

 

I just love these polls. And this is probably the first one where I don't already know the answer.

 

Neither do I.

[nightsky]

You're saying that being gay is caused by environment? That's a bit controversial.

 

 

I'm not voting yet, since I'm not up to speed yet.

 

But... this topic reminded me of a very frustrating conversation I had awhile back. My friend's parents (ppl who were like a second set of parents to me... The father said something about how gay people (men) shouldn't be allowed to adopt children.

 

 

After swallowing my "WTF are you talking about? Do you KNOW how many kids need a good home?" reaction, I asked him why he was against gay marriage (we'd already talked about this one) and why shouldn't gay couples be allowed to adopt?

 

He said that if a child grew up with gay parents, they would grow up thinking that being gay was okay.

 

Deep breath. I told him that I couldn't believe a medical doctor could believe that being gay was contagious. I couldn't even deal with the second part of his comment, except to say "why isn't being gay ok?"

 

-back to reading A Summer's Love.

 

 

 

[Mark Arbour]

I'm not voting yet, since I'm not up to speed yet.

 

But... this topic reminded me of a very frustrating conversation I had awhile back. My friend's parents (ppl who were like a second set of parents to me... The father said something about how gay people (men) shouldn't be allowed to adopt children.

 

 

After swallowing my "WTF are you talking about? Do you KNOW how many kids need a good home?" reaction, I asked him why he was against gay marriage (we'd already talked about this one) and why shouldn't gay couples be allowed to adopt?

 

He said that if a child grew up with gay parents, they would grow up thinking that being gay was okay.

 

Deep breath. I told him that I couldn't believe a medical doctor could believe that being gay was contagious. I couldn't even deal with the second part of his comment, except to say "why isn't being gay ok?"

 

-back to reading A Summer's Love.

 

 

 

 

You're right. It's a scary point of view. I knew KJames wasn't really talking about that. Doesn't mean I'm not going to give him crap though.

[methodwriter85]

Mark, I think what he's saying is that because Darius, JJ, and Will are being raised by two gays and a lesbian, they're going to be much more comfortable with exploring any sort of curiousity about the idea. Those three kids are going to be very comfortable with the GLBT community, even if they're straight.

 

Either way, I think it's going to be great to see stories narrated by JJ and Will- especially JJ. I think JJ will make such a great future lead at some point. And I'm not just saying that because he's my namesake. Part of it, yes, but the other part is, JJ really has the kind of charisma and zest for life that will be really engaging to follow. I see him as like the next generation's Stefan. Will- not sure about him just yet, but I do like him a lot. Darius- he reminds me of Ace in the sense that he's a great supporting characte, but I can't see him anchoring a story.

 

Again though, I think all three kids are pretty interesting little background characters. I'm kinda waiting with baited breath for Mark to start following them, to be honest. Maybe it's also because they're my contemporaries(Will and JJ are Class of '05 like I was), so there's that going from them. I'm really looking forward to dragging out music from high school- the Killer's Hot Fuss album, Postal Service, Linkin Park, etc etc- to score these guys' coming-of-age. I do agree with KJames that I really prefer the coming-of-age stories, in all honestly. I think Mark is really great at capturing those emotions.

 

Here's a question though- are any of you guys familiar with Malibu and teen SoCal culture of the early/mid-2000's? I'm playing dramaturg and want to help Mark with research in recreating that world.

Edited April 29, 2010 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Why not rent the "Laguna Beach: The Real OC"? That's probably pretty similar, and at the right time.

[methodwriter85]

True, but I've heard people say that rich O.C. kids are different from rich Malibu kids. Still, it's prolly a good primer for Mark when he gets around to it. I also think Mark needs to rent Mean Girls. It's about kids in Illinois, but I still think Mean Girls is great at capturing how high schoolers talked and dressed in the early/mid-'00's.

 

So what do guys think Mark will go in terms of narrating this generation when he gets past Brad and Robbie's?

 

Right now, I'm guessing: Will narrates his, JJ's, and John Hobart's senior year of high school in 2004-2005, which Mark can have some stuff about gay marriage in Massachusetts, as well as George Bush's re-election, and Hurricane Katrina. Then we follow JJ as a figure skater at the 2006 Olympics- where he will have copious amounts of sex, be it straight or gay. Because I think JJ will end up as big of a slut as Stefan, LOL. Then we switch back to Matt and Wade for the 2008 Presidential Election, where Wade is working in D.C. on Obama's campagin, and Matt Carrswold has to deal with the financial meltdown. Then the CA gay marriage debacle of 2008- Brad n Robbie get married? I would say JP and Stefan, but I honestly don't see those guys really being for the idea of getting married themselves, although they will be adament about keeping up the battle to get it legal. Maybe end the series with Matt and Wade getting married in D.C. in 2010?

Edited April 29, 2010 by methodwriter85

[KJames]

Mark, I think what he's saying is that because Darius, JJ, and Will are being raised by two gays and a lesbian, they're going to be much more comfortable with exploring any sort of curiousity about the idea. Those three kids are going to be very comfortable with the GLBT community, even if they're straight.

 

As usual, you hit the nail on the head...Mark must've been tired when he read my post.

[paya]

I'm going with JJ being gay. And it's more than just the figure skating thing. He's a 13-year old boy with a hot blonde girl (Tiffany) as his skating coach? If he's a straight 13-year old boy, JJ should be painstakingly drooling over her. But JJ doesn't really seem to be expressing all that much of an interest in girls, and if I remember being 13 correctly, all the guys around me couldn't shut up about girls. Still, if you make him straight, that could be cool- but I would hope that it means you aren't going to relegate JJ to supporting-character status because he's straight. I think he's way too interesting as a character to not have him take lead at some point. He reminds me so much of what Stefan would have been like if he didn't have a traumatic childhood.

 

 

[methodwriter85]

I don't know, maybe we were late bloomers, but as what I noticed, my classmates (the boldest and nicest ones) started dating girls at 15. Maybe he has some feelings about girls at 13 but with whom he would talk about them? And how would we know? He didn't tell Matt and that was the only one close to him that was a narrator too. If he told Darius, they would fight because Darius liked her too. Why would he tell "Dad"? Moreover everyone around him is gay, how would he guess they can help him with his "straight" issues? (And I'm not saying no one can help him, I'm saying JJ might think he has nobody to talk about it. Looks like I'm at the reversed situation gay-straight again He's just lost and alone among all those gays )

 

American culture's pretty different. In America, kids usually start dating in middle school- around 12 and 13. It's usually the cute, we're-going-steady-because-we're-holding-hands, although it can also get pretty heavy, depending on the kids. And judging by how cute, outgoing and friendly JJ is depicted as, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have started approaching girls by 13 if he were so inclined to do so.

 

And the reversal idea is kind of cute at first...but when you rethink the idea, isn't that exactly playing into the fears and arguments that people use against gays adopting- that straight kids adopted by gay people will feel uncomfortable about being straight and pressured into acting gay because of their gay parents? I'm not sure having a boy tortured about his straight feelings because he's surrounded by gay parents is really a mesage that should be made.

[Adam Phillips]

I'm way ahead of myself, considering that I'm kind of in a writing funk right now, but I have been thinking ahead to the next generation as seen in the "Man in Motion" thread. Here's what I'm thinking of doing. I'm thinking that JJ will turn out to be straight. Adam was joking about that, since he's a figure skater, and I'd have said the same thing, but it may be kind of nice to blow out the stereotype a bit. I think the card-carrying fag of the family will be Will.

 

I posted a poll on this and made it public so I can give people shit about how they answer the last question.

 

Uhh...this is, you know, kind of like...uhh...going to a Star Trek convention.

 

I think I'll just read the story.

 

[Mark Arbour]

True, but I've heard people say that rich O.C. kids are different from rich Malibu kids. Still, it's prolly a good primer for Mark when he gets around to it. I also think Mark needs to rent Mean Girls. It's about kids in Illinois, but I still think Mean Girls is great at capturing how high schoolers talked and dressed in the early/mid-'00's.

 

So what do guys think Mark will go in terms of narrating this generation when he gets past Brad and Robbie's?

 

Right now, I'm guessing: Will narrates his, JJ's, and John Hobart's senior year of high school in 2004-2005, which Mark can have some stuff about gay marriage in Massachusetts, as well as George Bush's re-election, and Hurricane Katrina. Then we follow JJ as a figure skater at the 2006 Olympics- where he will have copious amounts of sex, be it straight or gay. Because I think JJ will end up as big of a slut as Stefan, LOL. Then we switch back to Matt and Wade for the 2008 Presidential Election, where Wade is working in D.C. on Obama's campagin, and Matt Carrswold has to deal with the financial meltdown. Then the CA gay marriage debacle of 2008- Brad n Robbie get married? I would say JP and Stefan, but I honestly don't see those guys really being for the idea of getting married themselves, although they will be adament about keeping up the battle to get it legal. Maybe end the series with Matt and Wade getting married in D.C. in 2010?

 

 

Interesting. You're way ahead of me.

 

As usual, you hit the nail on the head...Mark must've been tired when he read my post.

 

 

Yeah, but I was just teasing. You saw my later post, right?

 

American culture's pretty different. In America, kids usually start dating in middle school- around 12 and 13. It's usually the cute, we're-going-steady-because-we're-holding-hands, although it can also get pretty heavy, depending on the kids. And judging by how cute, outgoing and friendly JJ is depicted as, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have started approaching girls by 13 if he were so inclined to do so.

 

And the reversal idea is kind of cute at first...but when you rethink the idea, isn't that exactly playing into the fears and arguments that people use against gays adopting- that straight kids adopted by gay people will feel uncomfortable about being straight and pressured into acting gay because of their gay parents? I'm not sure having a boy tortured about his straight feelings because he's surrounded by gay parents is really a mesage that should be made.

 

OK, I'm not buying that. Not all 13 year old kids are like that, and if they were, they sure as hell wouldn't be like that around a 18 year old college student. And as Paya noted, Matt was the only one close enough in age to notice Jeremy scoping anyone of either sex. Darius is close enough in age to Matt that he can be more open about wanting to have sex with girls.

 

Uhh...this is, you know, kind of like...uhh...going to a Star Trek convention.

 

I think I'll just read the story.

 

 

Well, if anyone would be an expert on Star Trek Conventions, it would be you. You still have that Klingon costume?

[methodwriter85]

OK, I'm not buying that. Not all 13 year old kids are like that, and if they were, they sure as hell wouldn't be like that around a 18 year old college student. And as Paya noted, Matt was the only one close enough in age to notice Jeremy scoping anyone of either sex. Darius is close enough in age to Matt that he can be more open about wanting to have sex with girls.

 

I get what you're saying. I'm not saying that JJ needs to talk to Matt about how he wants to have sex with girls. I'm saying that we haven't gotten any kind of hint that he's got these chaste, innocent crushes on girls in his team/school or on TV, either. Even though not all 13-year old kids are hardcore chasing dating, most are still going to express some kind of interest. Like I remember- there were some kids in middle school who were going hot and heavy, and there were also the kids in middle school who treated holding hands with their girlfriend/bf at lunch as going "steady". What Paya said about how some guys just don't know how to approach girls at that age and don't know how to ask advice about it would make sense, but then you gotta consider how you've written JJ's personality.

 

JJ is outgoing and an attractive kid. He's charming, friendly, and vivacious. He's also a guy who doesn't really think before he says something, and doesn't really think about proper boundaries. I was similiar in blurting out how I felt with no filter- and at 14, I was telling my 18 and 19-year old sisters about how hot I thought David Boreanaz was. I think JJ is the same way- if he were straight, he'd blurt out how he wanted to marry Katie Holmes, and if he's gay, he'd blurt out how he wanted to marry Josh Hartnett. I really think that JJ would have leaned on Matt for advice like that, because JJ isn't the kind of guy who holds back what he's thinking and feeling. And it's not like JJ wouldn't have a straight male role model to lean on- he has Uncle Jack and Uncle Ace to go if he were interested in the idea of dating girls.

 

JJ's also a guy who knows how to act around girls- he has his cousin Marie and his aunt Claire, and he's also on a team with girls on it. One of the things I hear constantly about guys who are on teams with that are mostly made up of girls is that it makes them, very quickly, incredibly comfortable about approaching girls. So it's not like JJ is going to be a 13-year old boy who's clueless about how to strike up a conversation with a cute girl if he were so inclined.

 

I'm just sayin'. Your mileage may very, of course. It's been an interesting thread, in any event- does a person's eventual sexuality manifest itself in childhood, and if so, how?

 

In my case, I used to play around with my sister's Barbies to enact Paul Abdul's "Cold Hearted Snake" video, while seeing a parachute in gym class reminded me of the 1990 American Music awards, where Cher incorporated one into her "If I Could Turn Back Time" performance . Big clue. LOL.

 

In Brad's case...well...he wanted to have sex with guys at 10. Bigger clue. LOL.

Edited April 30, 2010 by methodwriter85

[paya]

True, but I've heard people say that rich O.C. kids are different from rich Malibu kids. Still, it's prolly a good primer for Mark when he gets around to it. I also think Mark needs to rent Mean Girls. It's about kids in Illinois, but I still think Mean Girls is great at capturing how high schoolers talked and dressed in the early/mid-'00's.

 

 

[Mark Arbour]

I see you went through it all but you can't generalize on the whole population (neither on exceptions JJ might be) based on your own personal experiences.

 

Jeremy, when you start grad school they will pound this into your head: the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence.

 

Wise words, Paya.

[KJames]

I'm just sayin'. Your mileage may very, of course. It's been an interesting thread, in any event- does a person's eventual sexuality manifest itself in childhood, and if so, how?

 

In Brad's case...well...he wanted to have sex with guys at 10. Bigger clue. LOL.

As far as when? I had it figured out by the time I was 9...but didn't really come out to anyone until 16, and finally got comfortable with the idea when I moved out of my parents the first time at 21.

 

It's nice how you are into the story but I think you're pushing it too much. I understand you want to steer the story the way you want it but well... it's Mark's story, so I would let it be on him how he wants it. Of course, Mark asked for our opinions, we presented them (some more than others ) and with that I would conclude this discussion. So to answer to your posts Jeremy, I understand, I get your point, I've learnt something new about American kids of my age and that's it.

 

We didn't see any clue about JJ's sexuality because we didn't have means how to have it delivered to us (not to mention Mark probably didn't know then either ) but I'm repeating myself. My last comment - and I hope you won't take it personally - you seem you think you have a patent on explaining or analyzing American kids/teens and their psyche and development. When I read the two posts I'm answering here I felt like I'm being pressed to think the same because it's the only right way how it goes. I beg to differ. I see you went through it all but you can't generalize on the whole population (neither on exceptions JJ might be) based on your own personal experiences. You've become too attached to this character (given the circumstances maybe it wasn't good decision to link fictional characters and real persons at first place). What if Mark kills JJ off in some tragic accident? You know he can be a mean bastard like that! (I love you too Mark! )

It is Mark's story, and I'm sure he won't disappoint us in this regard--at least one of the boys will be gay! (out of three we could get one of each--gay, bisexual and straight!) So, I'm fairly sure we'll see a very responsible, close, loving and caring set of brothers, even if one turns out heterosexual I'm fairly sure he won't have negative biases toward homosexuals. And I love you, three, Mark!

Edited May 1, 2010 by KJames

[mmike1969]

I went for the simple vote and made Everyone Gay/bi-sexual.

[Mark Arbour]

I went for the simple vote and made Everyone Gay/bi-sexual.

 

Wishful thinking on your part.

[mmike1969]

...

You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of JJ being straight and Will being gay.

 

JJ: "Hi mom, dad, dad! I would you all like to meet my girlfriend Buffy! She's part of the Canadian female hockey team!"

 

Brad: "um..."

 

Robbie: "...crap... Now we have to have the OTHER talk with him..."

 

Jean: Looks to the men before saying something..."HI!"

 

Later that night they catch Will in a similar position Casey's mom caught him in with a member of the baseball team

Edited May 4, 2010 by mmike1969

[KJames]

Robbie: "...crap... Now we have to have the OTHER talk with him..."

 

Now that's funny and it sounds like Mark would write it!